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Another Idea
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Valherran
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Joined: 28 Feb 2010

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 5:40 am    Post subject:  Another Idea Reply with quote

May I request that there be passive money income sources buildable for all factions? I am often struggling with Nod and Scrin due to the lack of funds from the lack of weak units, Nod and Scrin require alot resources to get there better units into the field and GDI does not and this also results in GDI stomping on everyone more than half the time.

So if you can make Tiberium Spikes buildable or something for all factions with the build limit of 5 and 2000 a piece, I think it will solve the lack of funds for everyone. What you all think? Confused

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Dutchygamer
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Joined: 18 Jun 2005
Location: Dordrecht, the Netherlands

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I mostly lack funds at the end of a game when all the Tiberium is gone. Also, lack of funds for Scrin is silly: you have unlimited capacity #Tongue
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Carnius
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Joined: 23 Apr 2007

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this might be problem of overall game balance rather than economy itself. If is GDI really more powerful than others then is needed something different than simply boost economy of others, specialy when Nod (unlike gdi) can boost economy already with support power in late game and crin got Conqueror who has similar ability.

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Valherran
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Joined: 28 Feb 2010

PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well it is unbalanced already so we gotta do something, would there be a way to enable/disable the tiberium spike tech before the match starts? (same as random crate spawn button) Wink

If not how about tweaking some prices for the factions? This would benefit Nod greatly because they shell out more funds than Scrin to get their better units out. Example being is I believe the Secret Shrines are 1500 a piece,say reduce them to 1000? Confused

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Destiny
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You gotta think about early/mid-game if you want to reduce prices, we're talking about late game here.
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Darkstorm
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Joined: 20 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say a tib spike like building that costs an investment to get near mid to late game, where your harvesting is only beginning to stagnate, but nets you a solid stream of credits.
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Valherran
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Joined: 28 Feb 2010

PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darkstorm wrote:
I'd say a tib spike like building that costs an investment to get near mid to late game, where your harvesting is only beginning to stagnate, but nets you a solid stream of credits.


You mean like a timer on when to start feeding you credits? Or is on the lines of the UN supply drops from Generals?

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Darkstorm
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like a Tib Spike, but is build at the Tech Line around the UN Supply Drop.
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0warfighter0
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Joined: 07 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So the Tech Center would be required to build it, hmm

Could be handy.

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Orac
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Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

if the problem is GDI being too strong in the early game, wouldn't it be better to redo some of the GDI tech tree to prevent them from attacking so effectively in the early game?

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Valherran
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Joined: 28 Feb 2010

PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orac wrote:
if the problem is GDI being too strong in the early game, wouldn't it be better to redo some of the GDI tech tree to prevent them from attacking so effectively in the early game?


Tech Tree is not the issue, it's the prices on alot of things...

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Smallchange
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Joined: 05 Dec 2009

PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scrin has Growth accelerator i think that Tiberium Spikes should be buildable in the center of a tiberium field and they decrease the regrow rate by 1/8...

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Sedistix
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Joined: 27 Mar 2010

PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good idea for economic purposes, but the GDI are against tiberium. Trying to rid the world of it. Seems counterproductive that they would grown it or propagate it.
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Carnius
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Joined: 23 Apr 2007

PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sedistix wrote:
Good idea for economic purposes, but the GDI are against tiberium. Trying to rid the world of it. Seems counterproductive that they would grown it or propagate it.


Exactly, Gdi cant have tiberium spikes.

But once i´v seen a mod, cant remeber which one now, which enable silos to generate money like tiberium spikes. Athough i dont like to copy other mods this might be also solution to this money problem and scrins growth accelerator can generate money like in KW do. It doesnt mean i will do it like that but its something to think about.

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Sedistix
Cyborg Engineer


Joined: 27 Mar 2010

PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had that in my mod years ago.

Code:

         <AutoDepositUpdate
            DepositInterval="300s"
            DepositAmount="300"
            Flags="ACTIVE_WHEN_REPAIRING"/>


Just attach this module anywhere in the Behaviors section. The above code is $300 every 5 minutes. Would probably need something a little more then that though. Also add a cap on the amount of silo's one can make so its not abused.

I suppose it could be possible to add a upgrade to initialize it too. So that players could buy a expensive tech upgrade late game that would turn it on. That would prevent players from just building them right away, or at least from using them to generate money. Just an idea.
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Valherran
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Joined: 28 Feb 2010

PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

C&C Retarded had the Silos set to a build limit of 5, store 10x the normal capacity, and produce 10 credits a second at the cost of 2500 to build, This would be nice for everyone. For Scrin however I would say do the same thing with their Stasis Chambers or Radar type building (forget the name...) since they do not have any silos. Unless you want to make a brand new building with this type of function then that is what I would recommend more. Wink

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Sedistix
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Joined: 27 Mar 2010

PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Giving all three races the same abilities is not a good thing. There's no need to sacrifice whats sets each race apart from the others in the name of balancing. A creative alternative is all that's needed. In fact the only thing missing from stock game-play was a GDI economy tweak. The scrin could speed up tib growth with their accelerator, the nod could seed it and the GDI, were over looked completely.
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Valherran
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Joined: 28 Feb 2010

PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sedistix wrote:
Giving all three races the same abilities is not a good thing. There's no need to sacrifice whats sets each race apart from the others in the name of balancing. A creative alternative is all that's needed. In fact the only thing missing from stock game-play was a GDI economy tweak. The scrin could speed up tib growth with their accelerator, the nod could seed it and the GDI, were over looked completely.


Seeding tiberium and speeding up growth is not a passive income source. To seed tiberium it costs 500 to harvest 2000 every 5 min. The growth accelerators do not make it grow fast enough to be of real use and they are too open for attack alot of times hence they are not reliable. What we need is a building that produces credits for free over time so we are all not scraping the maps for the last bit of tiberium left. As said before Nod and Scrin spend entirely too much money to get their better units into the field and a passive income source is needed to remedy this.

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Sedistix
Cyborg Engineer


Joined: 27 Mar 2010

PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Valherran wrote:

Seeding tiberium and speeding up growth is not a passive income source.

Actually it is.

Valherran wrote:
What we need is a building that produces credits for free over time so we are all not scraping the maps for the last bit of tiberium left. As said before Nod and Scrin spend entirely too much money to get their better units into the field and a passive income source is needed to remedy this.

Wouldn't the remedy then be to change the costs of those units? As opposed to further modifications that essentially correct something that is unnecessary to begin with. If one were to continue down this path of placated reasoning. They could eventually do away with tiberium altogether.

Bottom line, generating income without harvesting defeats the point of harvesting altogether.

Also, what maps are you playing?
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Darkstorm
Commander


Joined: 20 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sedistix wrote:
Giving all three races the same abilities ...


Playing a little too much Warcraft are we?

A GDI aligned human must not be the same as a Nod aligned human if all three factions are different races. Just for the record, I think they are the same race, humanity wise.

But yeah, we need a passive source of income like a tib spike or way for each faction to increase the effectivity of income like in RA2 how the Soviets had the industrial plant and the Allies had the Ore Purifier.
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0warfighter0
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Joined: 07 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about GDI get's some building like "supply depot" or "tiberium processor" or so, something wich wouldn't have anything to do with letting teberium grow.

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Valherran
Soldier


Joined: 28 Feb 2010

PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

:
Quote:
Seeding tiberium and speeding up growth is not a passive income source.

Actually it is.


Actualy it isn't, if you have to work to get the resources it is not considered passive income.

Quote:
what maps are you playing?


All of them, the only ones I do not have issues with lack of funding are the ones that let you start with Blue Tiberium Fields like Redzone Rampage.

That should be sufficient enough to tell you that standard money spawns don't really cut it for us and that we need a passive income source. :roll

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Darkstorm
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Passive income is income that is automatically dirived, not harvested by any means, helping harvesting is just that not passive income.
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Regulus
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Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Location: The Lone Star State

PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that GDI could use a building that actually increased the value of harvested Tiberium, if it is possible. The late game building will allow players to rake in more cash on those tiny harvester loads that are found near the end game.
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Carnius
Grenadier


Joined: 23 Apr 2007

PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

0warfighter0 wrote:
What about GDI get's some building like "supply depot" or "tiberium processor" or so, something wich wouldn't have anything to do with letting teberium grow.


Actually that suppose to be Dropship Command with this 4 new support powers, i mean those access able only from structure command list when selected. They give you various veteran vehicles for discount. One for all. Mammoth stomp give you 2 veteran mammoth tanks, costs 4500, which means one mammoth costs 2250 and its veteran! That is not bad. Although you have to wait 6 minutes for firs drop, you can boost your army with veterans for lower price than ordinary unit. The only problem is you have to get that money, which might be quite serious problem in late game. Anyway it works quite well for me but im not sure how it works in large scale, people dont speak about it much, so i dont know.

Maybe gdi need something different. Tiberium processor sounds good (if i get it right it should work like RA2 allied ore processor), but i can imagine that such technology requires advanced knowledge about tiberium so maybe it would fit better to nod or scrin. I think that something like RA2 soviet industrial plant would fit to Gdi best. More efficient warfactories or better quality units that is gdi way i think.

Sedistix wrote:


Valherran wrote:

What we need is a building that produces credits for free over time so we are all not scraping the maps for the last bit of tiberium left. As said before Nod and Scrin spend entirely too much money to get their better units into the field and a passive income source is needed to remedy this.


Wouldn't the remedy then be to change the costs of those units? As opposed to further modifications that essentially correct something that is unnecessary to begin with. If one were to continue down this path of placated reasoning. They could eventually do away with tiberium altogether.

Bottom line, generating income without harvesting defeats the point of harvesting altogether.


Good point. Adding structures which passively generate income must not significantly affect regular tiberium harvesting, which means it must be only small help in any way.

The amout of tiberium on map is actually part of victory conditions. Your goal is in this game to defeat enemy before is all tiberium harvested, before you depleted all money. Passive income change this basic rule and i dont know if its really needed, skilled players should be able to defeat enemy with resources they got on playground. However, this is like it should work, but considering vanilla CnC3 units and TE units, TE units is stronger and overall more expensive. The amount of tiberium on maps is set for vanilla cnc3 and that is maybe the case. I did changed unit strenght, i did changed unit prices but id not changed amount of tiberium. Maybe that is the answer, maybe increasing overall amount of tiberium on maps would solve the problem.

And maybe not. This is not decision but right now only something to think about.

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Valdez
Tiberian Fiend


Joined: 30 Nov 2008

PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regulus wrote:
I think that GDI could use a building that actually increased the value of harvested Tiberium, if it is possible. The late game building will allow players to rake in more cash on those tiny harvester loads that are found near the end game.


This is a good idea.

Passive income could be abused, like in Generals where the passive income generators could be spammed to float your eco.

Also the game's tech tree has enough branches (we already branch in 3 different directions to tech up already). I think the game doesn't need any more structures. Maybe it could be an upgrade to existing structures instead
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Valherran
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well Carnius if you think passive income will disrupt the laws of playing C&C then would you crack out the growth rate of the Tiberium Fields? The growth rate in Tiberian Sun was perfect, it started out as a set amount on the map and if you leave it alone long enough it spreads like a plague on the map. That is another thing EA screwed up on was the Tiberium Fields only generate up to a certain amount they don't go any farther than the pre-set boundries.

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Valdez
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Joined: 30 Nov 2008

PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it goes beyond pre set boundaries it could eat into base expansion space
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Regulus
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could always make it a late game refinery upgrade. One that doesn't become available until the tech center is down.

As far as GDI having enough experience with processing Tiberium, let us not forget that they are in possession of the Tacitus Data Matrix right now during CNC3, so the technical information about that stuff would probably be available to them.
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Sedistix
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Joined: 27 Mar 2010

PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unlimited tiberium growth stresses the game engine at a geometric rate resulting in an eventual crash. Been there done that.
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Valherran
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Joined: 28 Feb 2010

PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sedistix wrote:
Unlimited tiberium growth stresses the game engine at a geometric rate resulting in an eventual crash. Been there done that.


It won't be a constant growth, this is how it works: When the Tiberium Field is disturbed and gets mined down past it's preset boundries it starts regenerating rapidly. If the Tiberium Field is left alone it slowely grows out past it's boundries, not fast. This is how it worked in Tiberian Sun Firestorm, in normal Tiberian Sun (before the expansion came out) the way you are thinking it worked is how it used to work.

The maps arent overly big like the Tiberian Sun maps can get. So using the method stated above will not harm the integrity of the game. And that's because everyone gathers up the Tiberium so fast that most maps are often leaving everyone scraping due to large pricing on things. It can go 2 ways, price reduction on ALOT of things, or old school Tiberium Growth System.

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Stygs
Cyborg Cannon


Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, the only problem is that the tibfield datas are saved inside the maps. Everytime Carnius want to change the values, he would have to change every single field on every single map.
Sounds like a lot of work. #Tongue


Quote:
think that GDI could use a building that actually increased the value of harvested Tiberium, if it is possible. The late game building will allow players to rake in more cash on those tiny harvester loads that are found near the end game.


Well, I had some lategame boni for all sides in TWA and used a similiar thing for GDI.. but to get more tibeirum, you need to have some Tibeirum in the first place. If all fields are depleted, than it wont help you. Sad
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Valdez
Tiberian Fiend


Joined: 30 Nov 2008

PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Valherran wrote:


It won't be a constant growth, this is how it works: When the Tiberium Field is disturbed and gets mined down past it's preset boundries it starts regenerating rapidly. If the Tiberium Field is left alone it slowely grows out past it's boundries, not fast. This is how it worked in Tiberian Sun Firestorm, in normal Tiberian Sun (before the expansion came out) the way you are thinking it worked is how it used to work.



Is that even codable?

What defines the boundary?

What defines the code behaviour of the growth? If it grows past its boundary, to what extent will it spread? what is the new boundary of growth, etc?
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OmegaBolt
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Valherran wrote:
It won't be a constant growth, this is how it works: When the Tiberium Field is disturbed and gets mined down past it's preset boundries it starts regenerating rapidly. If the Tiberium Field is left alone it slowely grows out past it's boundries, not fast.
IMO it should be the opposite. If being mined it shouldnt grow too fast, but once a feild is depleted and untouched for a while it should spread very quickly.
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Sedistix
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Joined: 27 Mar 2010

PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some of you don't realize that each and every "square" of harvestable tiberium acts as a unit, and as such requires it's own place in the hardware pool. Having widespread 'spreading' growth put and enormous amount of unnecessary stress on the game engine. (Probably why the developers left that feature out.)

TheGunRun attempted such an effect in C&C Retarded, and had no luck getting around the geometric load tiberium placed on hardware, which always resulted in a crash.

A simpler fix would be to alter the tib value's with TiberiumCrystal.xml & TiberiumCrystalBlue.xml and failing that, the harvesters themselves, to bring in more per load.
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Valherran
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Joined: 28 Feb 2010

PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Valdez wrote:
Valherran wrote:


It won't be a constant growth, this is how it works: When the Tiberium Field is disturbed and gets mined down past it's preset boundries it starts regenerating rapidly. If the Tiberium Field is left alone it slowely grows out past it's boundries, not fast. This is how it worked in Tiberian Sun Firestorm, in normal Tiberian Sun (before the expansion came out) the way you are thinking it worked is how it used to work.



Is that even codable?

What defines the boundary?

What defines the code behaviour of the growth? If it grows past its boundary, to what extent will it spread? what is the new boundary of growth, etc?


Obviously it was codeable, thats how it worked back then.

Sedistix wrote:
Some of you don't realize that each and every "square" of harvestable tiberium acts as a unit, and as such requires it's own place in the hardware pool. Having widespread 'spreading' growth put and enormous amount of unnecessary stress on the game engine. (Probably why the developers left that feature out.)

TheGunRun attempted such an effect in C&C Retarded, and had no luck getting around the geometric load tiberium placed on hardware, which always resulted in a crash.

A simpler fix would be to alter the tib value's with TiberiumCrystal.xml & TiberiumCrystalBlue.xml and failing that, the harvesters themselves, to bring in more per load.


Didn't know that, if green value was changed to the value of blue and blue was doubled, that would rule. Laughing

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OmegaBolt
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well then perhaps increase the value of Tiberium and decrease the amount harvesters collect. You'd get the same amount of cash each run, but Tiberium would be on the map longer.
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Orac
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Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Valherran wrote:
Obviously it was codeable, that's how it worked back then.

Yes, but is it codeable in C&C3?

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Valherran
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Joined: 28 Feb 2010

PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orac wrote:
Valherran wrote:
Obviously it was codeable, that's how it worked back then.

Yes, but is it codeable in C&C3?


If someone tried then yes, If it was done before it can be done again. The only real difference I see is an engine with superior graphics and that's about it. Confused

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Stygs
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Joined: 27 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, then you have no idea how tiberium works in the CnC3 engine.
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Crimsonum
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

or how the engine works at all >_>
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Valdez
Tiberian Fiend


Joined: 30 Nov 2008

PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Valherran wrote:
Orac wrote:
Valherran wrote:
Obviously it was codeable, that's how it worked back then.

Yes, but is it codeable in C&C3?


If someone tried then yes, If it was done before it can be done again. The only real difference I see is an engine with superior graphics and that's about it. Confused


You're missing the important part: "If he tried AND SUCCEEDED."

You seem to assume everything that was doable in FS is doable in C&C 3, as though SAGE was an improved version of the FS engine with the 2D graphics changed to 3D and everything else perfectly intact. Or maybe you think all game engines are identical except for the visuals that your eyes can perceive...

I'm not a modder, but my common sense is enough to know that's not the way it works.

Do you know that there are some things in Generals that you can't even replicate in C&C 3? And you're thinking something from a completely separate game engine is doable here... Crimsonum is right. You have no idea how C&C 3's engine works.
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Valherran
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Valdez wrote:
Valherran wrote:
Orac wrote:
Valherran wrote:
Obviously it was codeable, that's how it worked back then.

Yes, but is it codeable in C&C3?


If someone tried then yes, If it was done before it can be done again. The only real difference I see is an engine with superior graphics and that's about it. Confused


You're missing the important part: "If he tried AND SUCCEEDED."

You seem to assume everything that was doable in FS is doable in C&C 3, as though SAGE was an improved version of the FS engine with the 2D graphics changed to 3D and everything else perfectly intact. Or maybe you think all game engines are identical except for the visuals that your eyes can perceive...

I'm not a modder, but my common sense is enough to know that's not the way it works.

Do you know that there are some things in Generals that you can't even replicate in C&C 3? And you're thinking something from a completely separate game engine is doable here... Crimsonum is right. You have no idea how C&C 3's engine works.


If your not a modder then how in the hell would you know? Confused

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Orac
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because its Goddamn obvious.
TS/FS is built on an engine with different capabilities to the engine of C&C3. Just because it has Tiberium in it, doesn't mean that it can act the same.

Lets take Vladez's comment about Generals. Some stuff in Gens doesn't work in C&C3. For example, Aeroplanes taking off and landing on a runway.
If stuff from the previous C&C doesn't work, why would stuff from way back in TS have any chance of working?

Just because something worked back in the early games, doesn't mean that it was carried over into the new ones.
(IIRC some of the old WW code libraries ended up in RA3, but it was to do with the WOL interface, not something gameplay related)

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Valdez
Tiberian Fiend


Joined: 30 Nov 2008

PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Valherran wrote:

If your not a modder then how in the hell would you know? Confused


Because I know TS and C&C 3 operate on completely different infrastructures. The fact that TS modding was on an ini basis and C&C 3, on XML should already be a huge hint.

You may not realise it but game engines are not designed for "endless possibilities" kind of game design. They have limitations. A LOT of limitations.

Also if you're going to pull the "I'm not a modder" card, I could just as easily ask you on what basis of modding experience do you use to support your claim that the Tiberium modding can be done in C&C 3?
_________________

The white lady~!

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Cantdrawbutmod
Rocket Cyborg


Joined: 19 Oct 2009

PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm also interested in passive money income.
If it's a very high tech level building,most good players would not have to complain,since they would have ended their game far before anybody got the opportunity to build it,so it won't alter their gaming experience Razz

This message is supported by the snails and turtles community Laughing

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playmsbk
Vehicle Driver


Joined: 28 Feb 2010

PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

what about GDI having a building that sucks tiberium from undergrown(to clear the ground from it), nod having something that creates tiberium and scrin having the tiberium thing giving money?

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Valherran
Soldier


Joined: 28 Feb 2010

PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have any of the ideas mentioned on this thread been taken into account for 1.5 Carnius?

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