Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 6:58 pm Post subject:
Mods and there AI
What troubles me is that some mods have an almost impossible AI to beat.
Not that i don't like a challenge but some days i want to play it a bit more slow and relaxing like with the vanilla games. You could keep easy, easy no? Or is that totally not doable?
I'm aware lots of people playing RTS are like bunnies on speed, but some of us are turtles you know. _________________
Now that you mention it, I totally agree. In fact, if I ever release my mod I'll have a difficult AI ini (what I use now) and will now create an easier AI. _________________ Tiberium Uprising (a few missions for TS): http://www.ppmsite.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31029 QUICK_EDIT
I too agree.
Yeah, show off your AI coding skills by all means, but leave easy nice and easy, for those of us trying to get to grips with the mod, new units and such.
I can remember AGSA beta, Allied General wanted me to test it but I kept getting my arse kicked before I could even get up a Battle Lab _________________ Folio.
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Location: Modding other games.
Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 11:31 pm Post subject:
Yeah I have past episodes where when I play TI, five minutes later after building a WarFactory and some vehicles. I get completely overrun by a bunch of Orca Bombers and massive waves of Titans and MLRS. _________________
Quote:
Everybody knows a mod that doesn't update every ten seconds is dead.
Well this is easy to solve with clearly differing difficulty levels. Level 2 = insane hard, 1 = challenge, 0 = casual. For my mod I've left the easy AI to something that even newbies should be able to handle. Though I think us mod developers being experienced with C&C clouds our judgement sometimes on what is easy. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
The maps are too small
The area in which you can build is too small
The amount of funds on the map are lacking
I have played about 7 mods. I can spend 3 hours against an AI that appears to be tough, but when you can sneeze and hit your opponent it is not a good map. If the majority of the cash is in the middle of the map you spend time and money to build harvesters & Anti-air to defend them, and as we know the AI will always cheat.
The largest map should have no more than 5 players...maybe 6. From the maps I have seen for RA2/Yuri, C&C3, and C&C 4 I am not impressed. Mental Omega had a few I liked, as did the original Blitzkrieg.
All my maps are 5 players and have a size of 215 by 200. There is no rush in and over run easy. Some maps have raised areas or obstacles to move around.
Another issue I have is the weapons damage and its range. And with vehicles the speed in which they travel. Some are too crazy
The toughest AI I made had me with a 4 1/2 hour battle. It was a 4 on 1 deal, but in the end I lost. I don't mind losing, but to get over run in 10 minutes is not acceptable. _________________ I am authorized to send out the TMP Studio, PM ME IF YOU WANT IT And check this out, these were sent to me for help with terrain and zdata help along with TMP Studio/Builder
What has to be understood is that modders inherently build to their own play style unless they are a team. For example, with only 1 mapper, you're going to end up getting their playstyle maps, even when they try not to. It's a subconcious thing.
What can be done with AI is, release 2 versions of the mod; One vanilla difficulty, the second, Hardcore.
It's really not TOO much to make a second version with only the AI changed. _________________ "Don't beg for things; Do it yourself or you'll never get anything." QUICK_EDIT
Well this is easy to solve with clearly differing difficulty levels. Level 2 = insane hard, 1 = challenge, 0 = casual.
Then people will start complaining that they for example walk over Level 1 easily but simply can't beat Level 2. Having 5 difficulty levels would solve it.
I personally find it sometimes hard to say if an AI is easy enough, because I'm meant to be able to destroy pretty easily anything else than AI level 2. In all the mods I've been an AI coder for so far, the mods have lacked testers who would have been interested in properly testing AI level 0 before release (which is for example visible in TI AI). _________________ CnCNet Client | CnCNet TS patches | More Quality-of-Life Improvements for RA Remastered
1. Very Easy, About the difficulty of TS AI 0. (For Newbies)
This is recommended for new players.
2. Easy, About the difficulty of TS AI 2. (For people ready for higher challenge)
3. Medium, About the difficulty of TI AI 1. (For people with decent experience)
Kind of a big leap from 2 to 3.
4. Difficult, About the difficulty of TI AI 2. (since some of you win) (For Veterans)
For average TI players.
5. Insane, About the difficulty of...well tougher than TI's. (For Masters)
For overconfident players that really want a challenge.
Hmm, I could make it five difficulties. Use the three current ones. Then create another version of your mod.
-A second Rules or RulesMD (for AI controls IE defense count)
-A second AI or AIMD (for AI forces)
Make them harder but in your difficult version, easy should be the difficulty of hard in the easy version. (You understood that right?) _________________ Tiberium Uprising (a few missions for TS): http://www.ppmsite.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31029 QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Location: Modding other games.
Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 11:38 pm Post subject:
Orac wrote:
Sometimes you just want to play a half-hour game and move onto RL things.
^ This! I'm not much of a hardcore gamer myself, I just play to have fun and explore a bit instead of having to be constantly on the guard and planning to end the game as quickly as possible.
On the positive side, having hardened AIs do provide a competitive training towards online players IMO. _________________
Quote:
Everybody knows a mod that doesn't update every ten seconds is dead.
I love spending my time exploring the units ability's and such. I hate the mods were they add a few units and you can't even check them out without being overrun and destroyed. The perfect mod would keep the vanilla settings and not have a giant overpowered side. I build a base and within 20 seconds I get overrun, What kind of shiza is that. Plus everyone likes to have a nice and relaxed match. If I wanted to get into a instant spam fest, I would set the AI to the harest difficulty and crank out tanks. I agree with 4StarGeneral about releasing two of the same mod. One is super fricken hard and the other is vanilla settings. QUICK_EDIT
human is far more tricky than AI specialize c&c ai. :p it's good that TI can make the ai spam unit and over run player, but for my mod even hard ai don't even know how to build tech center and get super weapon that make me serious. - -"
and don't worry TI Ai over run my base neither even easy level. :p QUICK_EDIT
Using map waypoints would probably be the smartest way to make an intelligent AI. You'd just need to reserve certain waypoint numbers for AI only, add those to the maps in the right places then use those in your global AI scripts.
Maybe I'll do this one day when I have the stamina, possibly after the first multiplayer release of my mod. QUICK_EDIT
On the positive side, having hardened AIs do provide a competitive training towards online players IMO.
Nope. No way. Play me at RA2/YR online and you'll see why that's not true.
I remember doing very well in our first TI matches although I had only played skirmish for ten years (of which about three years with my own, harder AIs) without playing online nearly at all So I agree with Roaches, although you often do need different tactics against humans and spammer AIs. _________________ CnCNet Client | CnCNet TS patches | More Quality-of-Life Improvements for RA Remastered
RA2 Human Players will usually just crank out a bunch of Rhino Tanks if Soviet and Rocketeers if Allied. Those are annoying beyond reason. I haven't seen how TS players are though.
Using map waypoints would probably be the smartest way to make an intelligent AI. You'd just need to reserve certain waypoint numbers for AI only, add those to the maps in the right places then use those in your global AI scripts.
I'm doing that in D-day & it works really well, got the AI setting up defence points & patrolling around the map, It's a lot of work but well worth it! _________________
To be honest, I find that the somewhat primitive AI system of the TS/FS/RA2/YR probably favors simpler approach rather than use of somewhat gimmicky tactics as spying and transports. In other words, I think AI performs better the less you make it use the aforementioned 'gimmicky' tactics and more sheer brute force and numbers. But that probably depends on what kind of play style and AI you're going for. I just find it hard for the AI to provide any sort of real challenge unless it is able to out-produce the player it's pitted against. After all, the AI is just a system which obeys predefined scripts rather than something which can actively predict it's opponents moves with decent accuracy.
Another thing AI can't really handle well is navy. They build ships if you make them do so but I think they share the queue with ground vehicles and the naval units do not attack ground objects unless specifically told to attack a certain waypoint (Boomers in YR Allied mission 5 do precisely this) or occassionally when retaliating, something which makes them perform poorly in skirmish situations IMO. So ships are only good for anti-navy and even then, effectiveness is questionable if my suspicion that AI naval and ground units share the same production queue is correct.
On-topic: Assuming we're talking about TS/FS/RA2/YR mods, if you find that you're getting your ass whooped before you can do a thing, trying to not play with the game speed slider turned to the max could help. _________________ Last edited by Starkku on Sat May 07, 2011 8:55 am; edited 1 time in total QUICK_EDIT
Interesting, now i wonder, having a Generals AI in mind, what would people think about having a defensive, balanced and a offensive AI as opponent, where the defensive would turtle like hell, and not much more. Whereas the the offence wouldn't get what base defence is even if it'd be standing right in front of it.
But more on topic, there's two sides of AI difficulty, and I personally think Generals/RA2 AI would do for difficulty, but ZH AI being way to easy. For mods I'd agree with doing a "light" AI, and as mentioned above good maps. QUICK_EDIT
But more on topic, there's two sides of AI difficulty, and I personally think Generals/RA2 AI would do for difficulty
I don't really know nor care about Generals, but the RA2 AI is good for inexperienced players. Against good players it's just laughable however, if a mod would have similar AI many experienced players wouldn't like to play it for long. _________________ CnCNet Client | CnCNet TS patches | More Quality-of-Life Improvements for RA Remastered
Using map waypoints would probably be the smartest way to make an intelligent AI. You'd just need to reserve certain waypoint numbers for AI only, add those to the maps in the right places then use those in your global AI scripts.
I'm doing that in D-day & it works really well, got the AI setting up defence points & patrolling around the map, It's a lot of work but well worth it!
That sounds ace! Especially the thought of D-Day using that technique. _________________ Folio.
Well on the subject of AI for TS/RA2 its trigger based which means "adaptive" or human like game play i.e. same income, etc should be discouraged.
Simply because AI builds pre set teams based on conditions to fulfil set objectives which it can't really deviate from. You can use the illusion of time based triggers, pool teams and maybe some change scripts.
As such with my own AI I adopt a sledge hammer approach, it uses brute force, it clones, it hurts but its beatable and satisfaction of beating it is good.
Also as Starkku mentioned - some mods implement significant game performance tweaks which make fastest speed settings inappropriate. As such Speed=4 is more like vanilla Speed=6
I may consider adding a "easy" mode (my current difficulties are named after army ranks) but I find easy AI rather boring experience.
Then again intention of my mod is to create epic, long scale battles, where more engagements in game time = 1 hour _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Using map waypoints would probably be the smartest way to make an intelligent AI. You'd just need to reserve certain waypoint numbers for AI only, add those to the maps in the right places then use those in your global AI scripts.
I'm doing that in D-day & it works really well, got the AI setting up defence points & patrolling around the map, It's a lot of work but well worth it!
I contemplated doing this when Gamemate was around I suggested the idea and he was all for it but I never got around to it. I think I will make some time to make it.
Do you have individual AI triggers on maps or are you using scripts that tell the AI to do this at this way point? surely that's crazy considering the amount of maps and triggers you would need. QUICK_EDIT
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