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Mods and there AI
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Wess
TS Mapping GOD


Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: Belgium, FL

PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 6:58 pm    Post subject:  Mods and there AI Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

What troubles me is that some mods have an almost impossible AI to beat.
Not that i don't like a challenge but some days i want to play it a bit more slow and relaxing like with the vanilla games. You could keep easy, easy no? Or is that totally not doable?
I'm aware lots of people playing RTS are like bunnies on speed, but some of us are turtles you know.

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PePsiCola
Cyborg Specialist


Joined: 28 Dec 2010
Location: The United States

PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Now that you mention it, I totally agree. In fact, if I ever release my mod I'll have a difficult AI ini (what I use now) and will now create an easier AI.

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Lee
Jumpjet Infantry


Joined: 24 Feb 2005
Location: Nottingham, England

PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I too agree.
Yeah, show off your AI coding skills by all means, but leave easy nice and easy, for those of us trying to get to grips with the mod, new units and such.

I can remember AGSA beta, Allied General wanted me to test it but I kept getting my arse kicked before I could even get up a Battle Lab #Tongue

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Roaches
Cyborg Commando


Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Location: Modding other games.

PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeah I have past episodes where when I play TI, five minutes later after building a WarFactory and some vehicles. I get completely overrun by a bunch of Orca Bombers and massive waves of Titans and MLRS. #Tongue

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Cranium
Defense Minister


Joined: 05 Dec 2009
Location: USA

PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

a properly coded ai(md).ini will solve all of that.

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FurryQueen
General


Joined: 24 Jul 2010
Location: Liyue

PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That is a properly coded AI.

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Orac
President


Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I see what Wess is saying, though. Sometimes you just want to play a half-hour game and move onto RL things.

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SuperJoe
Commander


Joined: 03 Sep 2009

PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well this is easy to solve with clearly differing difficulty levels. Level 2 = insane hard, 1 = challenge, 0 = casual. For my mod I've left the easy AI to something that even newbies should be able to handle. Though I think us mod developers being experienced with C&C clouds our judgement sometimes on what is easy.

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Nikademis Von Hisson
General


Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Location: Wilkes Barre PA

PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The problem I have with some mods

The maps are too small
The area in which you can build is too small
The amount of funds on the map are lacking

I have played about 7 mods. I can spend 3 hours against an AI that appears to be tough, but when you can sneeze and hit your opponent it is not a good map. If the majority of the cash is in the middle of the map you spend time and money to build harvesters & Anti-air to defend them, and as we know the AI will always cheat.

The largest map should have no more than 5 players...maybe 6. From the maps I have seen for RA2/Yuri, C&C3, and C&C 4 I am not impressed. Mental Omega had a few I liked, as did the original Blitzkrieg.

All my maps are 5 players and have a size of 215 by 200. There is no rush in and over run easy. Some maps have raised areas or obstacles to move around.

Another issue I have is the weapons damage and its range. And with vehicles the speed in which they travel. Some are too crazy

The toughest AI I made had me with a 4 1/2 hour battle. It was a 4 on 1 deal, but in the end I lost. I don't mind losing, but to get over run in 10 minutes is not acceptable.

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4StarGeneral
General


Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Location: Limbo

PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

What has to be understood is that modders inherently build to their own play style unless they are a team. For example, with only 1 mapper, you're going to end up getting their playstyle maps, even when they try not to. It's a subconcious thing.

What can be done with AI is, release 2 versions of the mod; One vanilla difficulty, the second, Hardcore.

It's really not TOO much to make a second version with only the AI changed.

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Wess
TS Mapping GOD


Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: Belgium, FL

PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well i hope you modders out there take it under consideration. It would make playing mods a lot more fun.

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OmegaBolt
President


Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Location: York, England

PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well I don't intend to have a very difficult AI, mostly because I can't be bothered to make one and also because multiplayer is so much more fun.

But yes, difficulty controls should be better utilised and people shouldn't be afraid to play on Easy for once.

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Dutchygamer
President


Joined: 18 Jun 2005
Location: Dordrecht, the Netherlands

PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

If these are all hints that the TI Easy AI is way too hard: I'm working on it damnit #Tongue

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^Rampastein
Rampastring


Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Location: Gensokyo

PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

SuperJoe wrote:
Well this is easy to solve with clearly differing difficulty levels. Level 2 = insane hard, 1 = challenge, 0 = casual.

Then people will start complaining that they for example walk over Level 1 easily but simply can't beat Level 2. Having 5 difficulty levels would solve it.

I personally find it sometimes hard to say if an AI is easy enough, because I'm meant to be able to destroy pretty easily anything else than AI level 2. In all the mods I've been an AI coder for so far, the mods have lacked testers who would have been interested in properly testing AI level 0 before release (which is for example visible in TI AI).

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PePsiCola
Cyborg Specialist


Joined: 28 Dec 2010
Location: The United States

PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

If there were five...

1. Very Easy, About the difficulty of TS AI 0. (For Newbies)
This is recommended for new players.

2. Easy, About the difficulty of TS AI 2. (For people ready for higher challenge)

3. Medium, About the difficulty of TI AI 1. (For people with decent experience)
Kind of a big leap from 2 to 3.

4. Difficult, About the difficulty of TI AI 2. (since some of you win) (For Veterans)
For average TI players.

5. Insane, About the difficulty of...well tougher than TI's. (For Masters)
For overconfident players that really want a challenge.

Hmm, I could make it five difficulties. Use the three current ones. Then create another version of your mod.
-A second Rules or RulesMD (for AI controls IE defense count)
-A second AI or AIMD (for AI forces)

Make them harder but in your difficult version, easy should be the difficulty of hard in the easy version. (You understood that right?)

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Roaches
Cyborg Commando


Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Location: Modding other games.

PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Orac wrote:
Sometimes you just want to play a half-hour game and move onto RL things.


^ This! I'm not much of a hardcore gamer myself, I just play to have fun and explore a bit instead of having to be constantly on the guard and planning to end the game as quickly as possible.

On the positive side, having hardened AIs do provide a competitive training towards online players IMO.

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hotrods20
Commander


Joined: 27 Jul 2009

PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I love spending my time exploring the units ability's and such. I hate the mods were they add a few units and you can't even check them out without being overrun and destroyed. The perfect mod would keep the vanilla settings and not have a giant overpowered side. I build a base and within 20 seconds I get overrun, What kind of shiza is that. Plus everyone likes to have a nice and relaxed match. If I wanted to get into a instant spam fest, I would set the AI to the harest difficulty and crank out tanks. I agree with 4StarGeneral about releasing two of the same mod. One is super fricken hard and the other is vanilla settings.

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FurryQueen
General


Joined: 24 Jul 2010
Location: Liyue

PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Roaches wrote:
On the positive side, having hardened AIs do provide a competitive training towards online players IMO.

Not so much.

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Aro
Alcohol Fueled


Joined: 10 Sep 2006

PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Roaches wrote:
On the positive side, having hardened AIs do provide a competitive training towards online players IMO.


Nope. No way. Play me at RA2/YR online and you'll see why that's not true. Razz

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Holy_Master
Commander


Joined: 21 Jul 2004
Location: Thailand

PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

human is far more tricky than AI specialize c&c ai. :p it's good that TI can make the ai spam unit and over run player, but for my mod even hard ai don't even know how to build tech center and get super weapon that make me serious. - -"

and don't worry TI Ai over run my base neither even easy level. :p

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OmegaBolt
President


Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Location: York, England

PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Using map waypoints would probably be the smartest way to make an intelligent AI. You'd just need to reserve certain waypoint numbers for AI only, add those to the maps in the right places then use those in your global AI scripts.

Maybe I'll do this one day when I have the stamina, possibly after the first multiplayer release of my mod.

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^Rampastein
Rampastring


Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Location: Gensokyo

PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Aro wrote:
Roaches wrote:
On the positive side, having hardened AIs do provide a competitive training towards online players IMO.


Nope. No way. Play me at RA2/YR online and you'll see why that's not true. Razz

I remember doing very well in our first TI matches although I had only played skirmish for ten years (of which about three years with my own, harder AIs) without playing online nearly at all Wink So I agree with Roaches, although you often do need different tactics against humans and spammer AIs.

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PePsiCola
Cyborg Specialist


Joined: 28 Dec 2010
Location: The United States

PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

RA2 Human Players will usually just crank out a bunch of Rhino Tanks if Soviet and Rocketeers if Allied. Those are annoying beyond reason. I haven't seen how TS players are though.

I know I just contributed but I feel this will eventually go off topic.

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Mig Eater
Defense Minister


Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: Eindhoven

PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

OmegaBolt wrote:
Using map waypoints would probably be the smartest way to make an intelligent AI. You'd just need to reserve certain waypoint numbers for AI only, add those to the maps in the right places then use those in your global AI scripts.


I'm doing that in D-day & it works really well, got the AI setting up defence points & patrolling around the map, It's a lot of work but well worth it!

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Roaches
Cyborg Commando


Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Location: Modding other games.

PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Aro wrote:
Roaches wrote:
On the positive side, having hardened AIs do provide a competitive training towards online players IMO.


Nope. No way. Play me at RA2/YR online and you'll see why that's not true. Razz


Too lazy to dig in the closet for my RA2/YR CDs. Perhaps when Project Evolution gets in full motion, then my tank is FIGHT! XD

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Aro
Alcohol Fueled


Joined: 10 Sep 2006

PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Roaches wrote:
Aro wrote:
Roaches wrote:
On the positive side, having hardened AIs do provide a competitive training towards online players IMO.


Nope. No way. Play me at RA2/YR online and you'll see why that's not true. Razz


Too lazy to dig in the closet for my RA2/YR CDs. Perhaps when Project Evolution gets in full motion, then my tank is FIGHT! XD


Ha. Possibly, but I'm sure there are plenty of people here that will tell you RA2 is no easy story when I'm involved. Razz

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Deformat
Defense Minister


Joined: 17 Sep 2007

PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Aro wrote:
Roaches wrote:
Aro wrote:
Roaches wrote:
On the positive side, having hardened AIs do provide a competitive training towards online players IMO.


Nope. No way. Play me at RA2/YR online and you'll see why that's not true. Razz


Too lazy to dig in the closet for my RA2/YR CDs. Perhaps when Project Evolution gets in full motion, then my tank is FIGHT! XD


Ha. Possibly, but I'm sure there are plenty of people here that will tell you RA2 is no easy story when I'm involved. Razz


*raises slowly his hand*

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Starkku
Cyborg Commando


Joined: 28 Dec 2007
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

To be honest, I find that the somewhat primitive AI system of the TS/FS/RA2/YR probably favors simpler approach rather than use of somewhat gimmicky tactics as spying and transports. In other words, I think AI performs better the less you make it use the aforementioned 'gimmicky' tactics and more sheer brute force and numbers. But that probably depends on what kind of play style and AI you're going for. I just find it hard for the AI to provide any sort of real challenge unless it is able to out-produce the player it's pitted against. After all, the AI is just a system which obeys predefined scripts rather than something which can actively predict it's opponents moves with decent accuracy.

Another thing AI can't really handle well is navy. They build ships if you make them do so but I think they share the queue with ground vehicles and the naval units do not attack ground objects unless specifically told to attack a certain waypoint (Boomers in YR Allied mission 5 do precisely this) or occassionally when retaliating, something which makes them perform poorly in skirmish situations IMO. So ships are only good for anti-navy and even then, effectiveness is questionable if my suspicion that AI naval and ground units share the same production queue is correct.

On-topic: Assuming we're talking about TS/FS/RA2/YR mods, if you find that you're getting your ass whooped before you can do a thing, trying to not play with the game speed slider turned to the max could help.

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Joshy
Schwing!


Joined: 13 Aug 2006

PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Deformat wrote:
Aro wrote:
Roaches wrote:
Aro wrote:
Roaches wrote:
On the positive side, having hardened AIs do provide a competitive training towards online players IMO.


Nope. No way. Play me at RA2/YR online and you'll see why that's not true. Razz


Too lazy to dig in the closet for my RA2/YR CDs. Perhaps when Project Evolution gets in full motion, then my tank is FIGHT! XD


Ha. Possibly, but I'm sure there are plenty of people here that will tell you RA2 is no easy story when I'm involved. Razz


*raises slowly his hand*

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Wess
TS Mapping GOD


Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: Belgium, FL

PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Dutchygamer wrote:
If these are all hints that the TI Easy AI is way too hard: I'm working on it damnit #Tongue


Well work harder! Wink

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The-Light
Grenadier


Joined: 08 Aug 2009
Location: Netherlands

PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Interesting, now i wonder, having a Generals AI in mind, what would people think about having a defensive, balanced and a offensive AI as opponent, where the defensive would turtle like hell, and not much more. Whereas the the offence wouldn't get what base defence is even if it'd be standing right in front of it.

But more on topic, there's two sides of AI difficulty, and I personally think Generals/RA2 AI would do for difficulty, but ZH AI being way to easy. For mods I'd agree with doing a "light" AI, and as mentioned above good maps.

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^Rampastein
Rampastring


Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Location: Gensokyo

PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The-Light wrote:
But more on topic, there's two sides of AI difficulty, and I personally think Generals/RA2 AI would do for difficulty
I don't really know nor care about Generals, but the RA2 AI is good for inexperienced players. Against good players it's just laughable however, if a mod would have similar AI many experienced players wouldn't like to play it for long.

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Lee
Jumpjet Infantry


Joined: 24 Feb 2005
Location: Nottingham, England

PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Mig Eater wrote:
OmegaBolt wrote:
Using map waypoints would probably be the smartest way to make an intelligent AI. You'd just need to reserve certain waypoint numbers for AI only, add those to the maps in the right places then use those in your global AI scripts.


I'm doing that in D-day & it works really well, got the AI setting up defence points & patrolling around the map, It's a lot of work but well worth it!


That sounds ace! Especially the thought of D-Day using that technique. Very Happy

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Dutchygamer
President


Joined: 18 Jun 2005
Location: Dordrecht, the Netherlands

PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wess wrote:
Dutchygamer wrote:
If these are all hints that the TI Easy AI is way too hard: I'm working on it damnit #Tongue


Well work harder! Wink

If you can do my college work for me: go ahead #Tongue That is taking most of my time (and not even mentioning my mod).

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Allied General
General


Joined: 19 Mar 2004
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well on the subject of AI for TS/RA2 its trigger based which means "adaptive" or human like game play i.e. same income, etc should be discouraged.

Simply because AI builds pre set teams based on conditions to fulfil set objectives which it can't really deviate from. You can use the illusion of time based triggers, pool teams and maybe some change scripts.

As such with my own AI I adopt a sledge hammer approach, it uses brute force, it clones, it hurts but its beatable and satisfaction of beating it is good.

Also as Starkku mentioned - some mods implement significant game performance tweaks which make fastest speed settings inappropriate. As such Speed=4 is more like vanilla Speed=6

I may consider adding a "easy" mode (my current difficulties are named after army ranks) but I find easy AI rather boring experience.

Then again intention of my mod is to create epic, long scale battles, where more engagements in game time = 1 hour

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Hogo
Cyborg Firebomber


Joined: 12 Jul 2009
Location: London, England

PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Mig Eater wrote:
OmegaBolt wrote:
Using map waypoints would probably be the smartest way to make an intelligent AI. You'd just need to reserve certain waypoint numbers for AI only, add those to the maps in the right places then use those in your global AI scripts.


I'm doing that in D-day & it works really well, got the AI setting up defence points & patrolling around the map, It's a lot of work but well worth it!


I contemplated doing this when Gamemate was around I suggested the idea and he was all for it but I never got around to it. I think I will make some time to make it.

Do you have individual AI triggers on maps or are you using scripts that tell the AI to do this at this way point? surely that's crazy considering the amount of maps and triggers you would need.

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Allied General
General


Joined: 19 Mar 2004
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Miggy is the type of guy who would spend a year on a building :p

Anyhow D-Day being a true TC wouldn't use existing maps or if he did they would be heavily edited.

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