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March of War
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Millennium
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Joined: 09 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:55 pm    Post subject:   March of War Reply with quote

There is a certain f2p game called March of War. I've tried it out a bit and it inspired some of the units and faction designs of my own mod. Does anyone else know this game? Gameplay aside (which is turn-based), it seems awfully like a dieselpunk version of C&C (so, basically, an expanded version of the original Red Alert).
The factions are obviously assembled from C&C factions (except that the Allies are two-way split in MoW into Americans and Europeans) and even assume a certain knowledge of RA2's coding (in the case of the Latin Junta faction, which I guess is the counterpart to the "Latin Confederation" in rules/md.ini).

Then I found it even has Centurion (called Saw Walker and armed with... well... saws instead of a gun, but it's still clearly a Centurion Siege Crawler) and... a Borillo, called "Dozer Tank", but also very clearly a Borillo.
MoW was released in mid-2014 I believe, which means Azri's Borillo very much predates it. Does anyone know where Azri took his inspiration from? If it was his original design, his designs (unintentionally) contributed to a commercial game. Kudos!

A Borillo in MoW:
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/marchofwar/images/a/a2/CAR_DoserTank_3DPortrait_Pentagonian.png/revision/latest?cb=20140217213033
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Trans_C
AA Infantry


Joined: 17 Nov 2014
Location: Somewhere in China

PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:10 pm    Post subject: Re: March of War Reply with quote

Millennium wrote:
a Borillo, called "Dozer Tank", but also very clearly a Borillo.
MoW was released in mid-2014 I believe, which means Azri's Borillo very much predates it. Does anyone know where Azri took his inspiration from? If it was his original design, his designs (unintentionally) contributed to a commercial game. Kudos!

No. Mounting guns in a fixed casemate is a very common design. And adding a dozer blade is nothing unusual.
Personally I think Arzi Apoc's Borillo is somewhat inspired by the Vindicator used by Spess Mehreens in WH40K.


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Graion Dilach
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Joined: 22 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Cowboy Bebop! Long time no see!

#1: The Borillo is a Warhammer design. Ask Google about the Space Marine Vindicator.
#2: The Centurion AVRE called me up to tell you they demand the RL origin of the design.

Regarding that Saw Walker... wash your eyes, buddy, http://www.isotx.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/JUNTA-SAW-WALKER.jpg and http://cnc.wikia.com/wiki/File:RA2_yellow_painted_terror_drone_concept_art.jpg has nothing in common, besides the fact that both are mechs.
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Trans_C
AA Infantry


Joined: 17 Nov 2014
Location: Somewhere in China

PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And I lol'd quite hard at the Mitsubishi Empire fielding ancient infantrymen against WWII-ish forces.
In short, it's a crappy game design mixing real-world WWII AFVs and ridiculous sci-fi designs.
Anyway, war games having allies and soviets dosen't necessarily have connections with Red Alert series......

You know what? They even use your sengoku daimyos, with or without their iconic armor, to charge WWIIish gun lines!

[img]http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/marchofwar/images/d/de/EMP_Daimyo_Portrait.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20131120121457[/img]
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Millennium
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Joined: 09 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't get the Cowboy Bebop reference.
Well, the Centurion is a regular turreted tank with a howitzer instead of a tank gun and a dozer blade. I think the Vindicator is the more likely ancestor of both the Borillo and the Dozer Tank then.

Still, MoW has alot of touch-points with C&C.
Which isn't surprising - for the time period that MoW takes place in, the Red Alert series is just the dominant RTS series, and plus, certain elements are just bound to show up in a 20th century setting, such as certain factions and certain units that they imply. It'd be a huge surprise if there wasn't some overlap.

Still, I think the overlap is too great for MoW not to have taken things from both C&C and the C&C modding community:
I do think the two walkers look very similar. Also, the Soviet basic infantry in MoW is called "Conscript", they have a double-barreled tank and a preference for flamethrowers...
The European faction is called "European Alliance" and their logo is a lion's head... very reminiscent of the ECA from RotR, and RotR predates MoW too. I could go on.
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Trans_C
AA Infantry


Joined: 17 Nov 2014
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Millennium wrote:

Still, I think the overlap is too great for MoW not to have taken things from both C&C and the C&C modding community:
I do think the two walkers look very similar. Also, the Soviet basic infantry in MoW is called "Conscript", they have a double-barreled tank and a preference for flamethrowers...
The European faction is called "European Alliance" and their logo is a lion's head... very reminiscent of the ECA from RotR, and RotR predates MoW too. I could go on.

So you're also telling us that real-life countries conscripting their citizens are borrowing ideas from RA2?
Soviets in real life also had a double-barreled heavy tank design called ST-II.
So they must have invented a chronosphere to go to the future and copy RA1 designs?
European aristocrats often used lion head patterns on their coat of arms or some other stuff.
So they are copying RoTR?
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RatsInTheWalls
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Joined: 14 Jul 2014
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hahahah, yeah. Looking at the MoW wiki, I see a lot of familiar concepts.

It's like someone took RA1 and the original factions of Generals and kitbashed them together. Hahahahaha.
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Millennium
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trans_C wrote:
Millennium wrote:

Still, I think the overlap is too great for MoW not to have taken things from both C&C and the C&C modding community:
I do think the two walkers look very similar. Also, the Soviet basic infantry in MoW is called "Conscript", they have a double-barreled tank and a preference for flamethrowers...
The European faction is called "European Alliance" and their logo is a lion's head... very reminiscent of the ECA from RotR, and RotR predates MoW too. I could go on.

So you're also telling us that real-life countries conscripting their citizens are borrowing ideas from RA2?

If you call SOVIET basic infantrymen after the basic SOVIET infantry of RA2, then you are borrowing from RA2. Many countries have conscription, blaming them for ripping from RA2 makes as much sense as saying the word itself originated in RA2. But there are many things you can call your infantry - method of raising these soldiers is just one option. You could also call them "Riflemen" or "Light infantry". And in fact, the basic infantry of the other factions in MoW are NOT called conscripts, but go by a variety of names (Raider, Volunteer, Guerilla... I think there is even a GI for the United Republic). Yet for the Soviet basic infantry, the name "Conscript" was chosen. While "GI" for an Allied unit is something that I could put down to inspiration from RL, simply because the term is common in RL, there is no RL reference to why a Soviet basic infantryman should be called conscript any more than any other nation's infantryman could be called conscript. If you still chose to call the Soviet infantryman a Conscript, but use other names for the infantry of other factions, I interpret it as RA2 influence.

Quote:

Soviets in real life also had a double-barreled heavy tank design called ST-II.

I'm sure. But out of all the possible tank designs one could chose, they select a double-barreled tank for the Soviets just because of some obscure design drawing of which not even a prototype was ever built? I much rather put that down to taking ideas from C&C than independent inspiration from RL concepts.

Quote:

So they must have invented a chronosphere to go to the future and copy RA1 designs?

There is no Chronosphere (or other time machine) in MoW to my knowledge. If there was one, with a tell-tale blue glowing orb in the back, I'd blame ripping C&C.

Quote:

European aristocrats often used lion head patterns on their coat of arms or some other stuff.
So they are copying RoTR?

Sure. There's many things and animals that are common in European heraldry. In fact, the lion is a symbol of Britain mostly. For continental Europe, and of all things a Nazi-like faction like MoW's Europeans, an eagle would make more sense. Yet they chose a lion. That could still be coincidence. The lion head is almost 1:1 copied from RotR's ECA logo... just the frame and the color scheme is different. Combine that with an almost identical name (European Alliance, European Continental Alliance).
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Graion Dilach
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Joined: 22 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Millennium wrote:
I don't get the Cowboy Bebop reference.


One thing is not knowing it, another is not even noticing that I even linked the reference behind it, you dumdum.

But yea, go interpret common sense as RA2 influence. Total legit.

Regarding the lion: it's overused in heraldy. Totally ROTR. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_%28heraldry%29
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Dutchygamer
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I lolled at the "Night Witches" skinpack of the Soviet faction. Someone dug into their WW2 archive for that #Tongue

As for this whole discussion whether they ripped from C&C or not: nowadays it's hard to be original because most ideas that are balanced for an RTS have been done before. I can name half a dozen games that have done the same as RA1/RA2 in example, and I don't scream "RIPOFF!1111" at those either, cause they all introduce their own twist to the whole 'alternative history' theme to make it unique. However, if you go the way EA did with TibAlliances with copying Warhammer 40k designs one-on-one that everyone recognizes, then you are indeed stealing ideas / concepts.
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Millennium
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Joined: 09 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Graion Dilach wrote:
Millennium wrote:
I don't get the Cowboy Bebop reference.


One thing is not knowing it, another is not even noticing that I even linked the reference behind it, you dumdum.

But yea, go interpret common sense as RA2 influence. Total legit.

Regarding the lion: it's overused in heraldy. Totally ROTR. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_%28heraldry%29

lol
dude
I did follow that link, I just fail to see how it applies to my post.
Look at the ECA logo from RotR.
Look at the EA logo from MoW.
They are almost IDENTICAL. It's not just "oh, there is a lion. And hey, here is a lion too." They are the SAME. A stylized lion profile facing left. The only difference is that the ECA's lion has its maw open, while the MoW lion has its' maw shut, and the color scheme is different.

And sure, maybe that is pure coincidence, but can you account for double-barreled tanks for the Soviets, an Imperial Japanese faction that has an "Immortal" which is pretty much a RA3 Steel Ronin, except with a gun, Soviet Conscripts, Arabs with exploding trucks...

The faction names are almost 1:1 taken not even from RA/RA2, but even from RA2's rules.ini... the GLA-like faction is called "African Warlords"...

And yes, it could have been different. Take WarFront for example - engine-wise, it's a clear rip-off of Generals and that is well known. But in terms of unit design, there is no connection with C&C. So the overlap isn't a necessity and not a result of "common sense", but of active, and I'm not even saying "ripping", but of active "inspiration" by C&C. Heavy inspiration.

I don't get why you insist that MoW cannot under any circumstances have been inspired by C&C. Are you just trying to be contrarian because I posted this? You are fond of trolling me, after all. Everyone else can see the connection between the two games.
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Trans_C
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Millennium wrote:

I don't get why you insist that MoW cannot under any circumstances have been inspired by C&C. Are you just trying to be contrarian because I posted this? You are fond of trolling me, after all. Everyone else can see the connection between the two games.


Because we can't ensure that MoW's designs are influenced by CNC series.
Yes, they have similarities, but this alone can't lead to the conclusion of "MoW picking up C&C ideas".
And the two examples you gave at first are both somewhat interestingly mistaken, so I decide to post.
Dunno why GD want to reply, though.


And personally I dislike MoW's design style. Mixing real-life weapons with stupid stereotypes and ridiculous cartoonish designs, this somewhat disgusts me. Shaolin monks under Mitsubishi Empire's banner fighting KV-2s, elephants mounted with cannons charging at Shermans, or deploying modern tanks together with horse cavalry, all these stuff is just weird and unreasonable at best, at least to me.
They should either go for total realism, or total unrealism. This mixed style really sucks.

And the reason why we seem to "be contrarian" to you: It's hard to find a post on ppmsite that we can post some random stuff without the necessity of being responsible these days...
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Millennium
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You don't seem contrarian. But Graion is taking every opportunity to differ from my opinion - which is okay - but also to belittle it.

Yes, we cannot be _sure_ those ideas were taken from C&C, but it's not totally outlandish to see a connection.

And yes, the style is very weird, but perhaps if people can wrap their mind around RA3, they will also accept MoW.
I think the game is not very popular (very mixed reviews), but it is mostly criticized for pay-to-win and grinding/sluggish gameplay (it's free to play, but you can pay real money for in-game resources).

The design style is called "dieselpunk", it's something like an eternally extended WW1-WW2 interwar period with all the technological and sociological implications that has. After all, much of the world was really still using horse cavalry when the first tanks rolled in Europe. Having the two different tech levels face each other (and have the low-tech units even be pretty much even matched to the high-tech ones) is certainly unrealistic.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Millennium wrote:

They are almost IDENTICAL. It's not just "oh, there is a lion. And hey, here is a lion too." They are the SAME. A stylized lion profile facing left. The only difference is that the ECA's lion has its maw open, while the MoW lion has its' maw shut, and the color scheme is different.

And sure, maybe that is pure coincidence, but can you account for double-barreled tanks for the Soviets, an Imperial Japanese faction that has an "Immortal" which is pretty much a RA3 Steel Ronin, except with a gun, Soviet Conscripts, Arabs with exploding trucks...

The faction names are almost 1:1 taken not even from RA/RA2, but even from RA2's rules.ini... the GLA-like faction is called "African Warlords"...


You believe MoW's lion head is inspired by RotR's, and I also have the right to believe it isn't. After all only MoW's designers know whether they have been inspired by RotR, and we're all just guessing and inferring.
So it's obviously meaningless to pursuade each other to accept one's ideas......I know that and I just want to show what I'm thinking.

As for the lion head, I believe that if someone randomly draw a lion head portrait facing up, or down, or left , or right, he still gets a high probablity to get a RotRish lion head. People looking similar doesn't necessarily have similar ancestory.

And the Immortal from the Mitsubishi Empire: they are just normal folks clad in samurai armor wielding autocannons (totally unreasonable though), not 10-metre-tall anti-tank mechas with a oni-mask-inspired frontal armor plate and using beam naginatas. The only similarity is the two banners on the back. (Hell, I have even drawn these banners on my deployment-optimized battlemaster tanks in EASB Hour...)

Suicide trucks is indeed a C&C scenery, but also a common terrorist tactics in real life...Can't ensure.

And how can you otherwise name the African faction? African People's Front,  People's Front of Africa, or Popular Front of Africa?
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Millennium
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again, I have no problem with you. Everyone may have their opinion. Graion has called me stupid for having mine and makes it seem as if it's necessarily wrong and entirely unreasonable, while in reality it is only not necessarily right, but not unreasonable to have.
That's the gripe I'm having.

You don't need to have an African faction in the first place. Infact, no C&C game has one (Generals was slated to have one, but it was shelved early on), and I would even call the existence of an African faction a deviation from C&C-ish content.
But if you do have one, it could be the "Southern Empire" or "New Kmt" or anything. If you take a name that is also found RA2's string table, combined with all the other similarities the game has to C&C, I can reasonably assume - but not prove, of course - that it was inspired by RA2.

Steel Ronin is a guy in an armored suit with life-support systems that prevent him from dying and keep him alive indefinitely (immortal) unless killed by outside force. Immortals are guys in armored suits (the ONLY armored suits in MoW apparently), who are called IMMORTALS. I do see parallels. Not in the visual design, but in the "theme" of the unit. If armored suits were a common thing in MoW, it would maybe not stick out. But only the Japanese get an armored suit guy, who has these thematical similarities to a Japanese RA3 unit... hm.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Millennium wrote:

Steel Ronin is a guy in an armored suit with life-support systems that prevent him from dying and keep him alive indefinitely (immortal) unless killed by outside force. Immortals are guys in armored suits (the ONLY armored suits in MoW apparently), who are called IMMORTALS. I do see parallels. Not in the visual design, but in the "theme" of the unit. If armored suits were a common thing in MoW, it would maybe not stick out. But only the Japanese get an armored suit guy, who has these thematical similarities to a Japanese RA3 unit... hm.


Steel Ronin is more of a mech than a power armor...Those imperial fellas are not technically wearing the "suit", but controlling it via some super-ElectronicArtientific imperial tech.
But indeed, The main theme is the same---Elite bipod unit with stereotypical sengoku infantry outfit. But I'd rather believe both MoW and RA3 are inspired by real history, or some games like 信長の野望, or other ninja-samurai-bishojo-stuff. Anyway, it's not EA who teach Japanese how to make and wear samurai armor and banners.

In fact, a truly dieselpunk Japan, according to how you define "dieselpunk", should be based on Taisho or Showa era, with a fanatical(or maybe democratic? I dunno) army, westernized equipments, propaganda tactics, strong navy, and weak light tanks coupled with ridiculous super-heavy tanks. The samurais, as a social class, have technically disappeared back then in real life, right?
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Speeder
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see that much of a resemblance. Don't give their games too much unnecessary attention here.
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Millennium
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trans_C wrote:
Millennium wrote:

Steel Ronin is a guy in an armored suit with life-support systems that prevent him from dying and keep him alive indefinitely (immortal) unless killed by outside force. Immortals are guys in armored suits (the ONLY armored suits in MoW apparently), who are called IMMORTALS. I do see parallels. Not in the visual design, but in the "theme" of the unit. If armored suits were a common thing in MoW, it would maybe not stick out. But only the Japanese get an armored suit guy, who has these thematical similarities to a Japanese RA3 unit... hm.


Steel Ronin is more of a mech than a power armor...Those imperial fellas are not technically wearing the "suit", but controlling it via some super-ElectronicArtientific imperial tech.
But indeed, The main theme is the same---Elite bipod unit with stereotypical sengoku infantry outfit. But I'd rather believe both MoW and RA3 are inspired by real history, or some games like 信長の野望, or other ninja-samurai-bishojo-stuff. Anyway, it's not EA who teach Japanese how to make and wear samurai armor and banners.

In fact, a truly dieselpunk Japan, according to how you define "dieselpunk", should be based on Taisho or Showa era, with a fanatical(or maybe democratic? I dunno) army, westernized equipments, propaganda tactics, strong navy, and weak light tanks coupled with ridiculous super-heavy tanks. The samurais, as a social class, have technically disappeared back then in real life, right?


This is a complicated question. Most low-ranking landed nobility became unimportant following the Meiji Restauration (1868). This did not apply to the members of the imperial household of course, who continued to hold important positions in the government and military until the end of World War 2 (and, some would argue, continue to do so today, in a diminished form). It appears the Japanese of MoW never underwent the process of restoring imperial rule, and their government is still what is called a "shogunate".
This isn't to terribly relevant though, because neither Steel Ronin nor Immortals are actually military units based on being a member of the nobility. The Immortals seem much rather to be raised in the stereotypical "mecha pilot academy" way known from anime - gifted children go to some special school to learn how to pilot their mecha (Neon Genesis Evangelion, Candidate for Goddess, Gundam,...). I guess a full-body armored suit was the closest the MoW designers wanted to get to mecha for their time period/tech level.

You are certainly right that the world of MoW doesn't accurately depict the period of WW1-WW2, but that's, well, alternate history. Dieselpunk is more of a tech level/design choice, not necessarily an accurate depiction of a certain time period in terms of politics. It's like steampunk (if you know that term), only a few years later. Just like steampunk governments are habitually monarchies, and cyberpunk governments are habitually megacorporations, dieselpunk may also take some liberty and deviate from real-world sociology.
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Millennium
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A little update on this:
While I still hold most of the points I have expressed in this topic, I now believe the Japanese Immortals are instead based on the Oni armor thingy dudes from Sucker Punch... Smile
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