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Restricted building build when caputhering command centers
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Bokica
Civilian


Joined: 08 Jan 2016

PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:28 pm    Post subject:  Restricted building build when caputhering command centers Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I am playing as the soviet and when I capture a GDI command center I only get a few builds. The light vehicles, main battle tank, gun boat, orc and the basic defense building. However there are no advance buildings.


Is this some kind of bug or it is set on purpose. If set on purpose, can it be removed?

Thank you in advance.

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Bittah Commander
Defense Minister


Joined: 21 May 2003
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This is a side-effect of getting 4 factions to function properly while having only a limited number of "prerequisite groups" to work with. Out of the 4 factions, one of the factions is forced to have this issue and I decided to let it be GDI.

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Bokica
Civilian


Joined: 08 Jan 2016

PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

So assuming I am playing GDI and capture any other faction command center, I should be able to build all of their units?

Thank you for a the Quick replay.

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^Rampastein
Rampastring


Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Location: Gensokyo

PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Bokica wrote:
So assuming I am playing GDI and capture any other faction command center, I should be able to build all of their units?

Yes.

There's one special case on naval maps though: if you own all factories and tech buildings of all 4 sides on a naval map, the game will crash. This is because the game has a bug in it that makes it crash when there's more than 74 icons on the sidebar.

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Einhander
Cyborg Soldier


Joined: 17 Apr 2014

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Good to know, I always wondered why I would crash when I owned all the things.

That also means I have to redesign something.....

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thehx
Vehicle Drone


Joined: 24 Feb 2016

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Isn't there a way to optimize that to a less number of prereq. groups? like, treat all the non-adv. powerplants as the same, treat all the radars as the same, make one single refinery (it does not differ visually anyway), eliminate the nuke silo prereq. for soviet demo trucks (a mere +1 free group, but it counts)?

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

these are the prerequisite groups

Code:
PrerequisitePower=GFACT,NFACT,GFACT_AIUP,NFACT_AIUP
PrerequisiteBarracks=PYLE,HAND,RATENT,RABARR,PYLE_AI,HAND_AI,RATENT_AI,RABARR_AI
PrerequisiteFactory=AFACT,SFACT,AFACT_AIUP,SFACT_AIUP
PrerequisiteRadar=NFACT,NFACT_AIUP
PrerequisiteTech=EYE,TMPL
PrerequisiteGDIFactory=GFACT,NFACT   ;The AI can't use GDIFACTORY and NODFACTORY as prerequisties for buildings
PrerequisiteNodFactory=WEAP,AFLD,AWEAP,SWEAP,WEAP_AI,AFLD_AI,AWEAP_AI,SWEAP_AI

as you can see, they are all used.
And without changing the tech tree, there isn't much to optimize.

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Bittah Commander
Defense Minister


Joined: 21 May 2003
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Einhander wrote:
Good to know, I always wondered why I would crash when I owned all the things.

That also means I have to redesign something.....

These crashes will no longer happen now. Version 1.1486 included a fix by AlexB which simply prevents more than 75 cameos from appearing on the sidebar and thus prevents the game from crashing.
thehx wrote:
Isn't there a way to optimize that to a less number of prereq. groups? like, treat all the non-adv. powerplants as the same, treat all the radars as the same, make one single refinery (it does not differ visually anyway), eliminate the nuke silo prereq. for soviet demo trucks (a mere +1 free group, but it counts)?

It seems you're misunderstanding what prerequisite groups actually mean. Individual prerequisites work perfectly fine, but as soon as you want to make it possible to allow one of multiple different structures to function as a prerequisite for something, you require a prerequisite group and what you're suggesting is exactly to use more prerequisite groups, which is counter-productive.

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thehx
Vehicle Drone


Joined: 24 Feb 2016

PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Things are becoming somewhat clearer after reading that part of rules.ini. But there is still the question is what limit are you talking about? Something must be removed in order to exclude the situation when there will be more then 74 distinct sidebar entries on either column?

What if we remove the walls (or some of them at least?) I'd love to have GDI Mammoths from the captured/hijacked con-yards/MCVs waaay more than laser walls, gates or whatever, save for some survival missions when the gates proved to be quite useful, for me at very least.

If we count, we'll at least find fences (sandbags/chain link), gates (2x), laser fences (okay, perhaps someone would actually want them?), but on the other hand we'd have GDI tech buildings, right?

Thank you for paying attention. You guys are doing an amazing job.

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Einhander
Cyborg Soldier


Joined: 17 Apr 2014

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

While I can understand some players don't typically play with some of the walls on a regular basis. I must say I often like to challenge myself by playing on the lower tech levels.

What I wish we could do is let the AI play at a higher tech level while the player plays at a lower tech level. I don't believe this is possible without editing the map files for specific maps.

But you got to admit it sure would make things interesting.

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Bittah Commander
Defense Minister


Joined: 21 May 2003
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It might be doable to some extent via a game option, but I'm not sure if it's really worth the effort. The AI actually already builds a few things on lower tech levels than it should be allowed to: the Allied AI can already build Medium Tanks on Tech Level 3 for example.
thehx wrote:
Things are becoming somewhat clearer after reading that part of rules.ini. But there is still the question is what limit are you talking about? Something must be removed in order to exclude the situation when there will be more then 74 distinct sidebar entries on either column?

What if we remove the walls (or some of them at least?) I'd love to have GDI Mammoths from the captured/hijacked con-yards/MCVs waaay more than laser walls, gates or whatever, save for some survival missions when the gates proved to be quite useful, for me at very least.

If we count, we'll at least find fences (sandbags/chain link), gates (2x), laser fences (okay, perhaps someone would actually want them?), but on the other hand we'd have GDI tech buildings, right?

Thank you for paying attention. You guys are doing an amazing job.

It's already quite rare for there to be more than 74 units visible on the sidebar to begin with (like Rampastring mentioned, this only happens when you own the factories of all 4 factions), so I really don't see the point of worrying about this. Also, "if we count", there are fewer than 74 buildable structures for all 4 factions together in the first place, so I'm not sure why we need to remove walls #Tongue

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thehx
Vehicle Drone


Joined: 24 Feb 2016

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oh, so it is due to UNITS limit, not structures limit...

Then, how about merging rifle infantry units, rocket soldiers, grenadiers? Not that they differ from each other so much...  Nod/Allied Artillery is perhaps the case too...

By the way, can you give me the counters?

How many non-building units are there in DTA? Infantry, vehicles, ships (damn, I forgot ships!!), aircraft? Perhaps if the number is close to that magical 75, something could still be done regarding this problem?

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

thehx wrote:
Then, how about merging rifle infantry units, rocket soldiers, grenadiers? Not that they differ from each other so much...  Nod/Allied Artillery is perhaps the case too...

those use different voices (TD / RA ) and in some cases different weapons too.


You can look in rules.ini.
DTA has
161 vehicles/ships
60 Infantry
13 Aircraft

about 50-70 of these are unbuildable, AI-only, civilian and/or dummy units to get certain logics/weapons work.

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thehx
Vehicle Drone


Joined: 24 Feb 2016

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oh. Just did some counting myself.

Out of 93 moving units listed here (four pages, all in sum), possibly-optimizable (or already counting as one) are
3 rifle infantry units
1 grenadier (either gdi or sov)
3 bazookas
2 harvesters (gdi/nod, allied/soviet)
3 mobile sensor arrays
3 chinooks
3 engineers
1 artillery (nod or allied)

Then I counted the remaining units... oh come on, this could not possibly be true...exactly 75... but that is close enough to think something could be done about this, no?

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thehx
Vehicle Drone


Joined: 24 Feb 2016

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

oh... right. Voices, that is a part of game flavour. A GDI engi is indeed not supposed to ask "Engineering?" using a RA1 troll voice, and I am too used to that troll voice when playing for ra1 commies... and of course we can't make custom side-based voice sets just via Rules.ini... this would require some hardcore patching of the game executable... perhaps it is even simplier to remove that 75-limit if it comes to that. BTW, has anyone tried to find out why exactly the game crashes?

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Bittah Commander
Defense Minister


Joined: 21 May 2003
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

As I mentioned in my first post in this topic:
Bittah Commander wrote:
These crashes will no longer happen now. Version 1.1486 included a fix by AlexB which simply prevents more than 75 cameos from appearing on the sidebar and thus prevents the game from crashing.

So these crashes already no longer happen and the worst thing that can happen is that a few units won't appear on the sidebar when you own the factories of all 4 different factions, on a naval map.

Considering that this literally never happens in a serious match, there's really no urgency to fix this even more than it has has been already fixed.
Basically the only players who could suffer from this are those who try to play DTA like it's Sim City (and I know there's a good bunch of players around who like to just build pretty bases and don't care for waging war), but these players are mainly just interested in the structures anyhow.

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thehx
Vehicle Drone


Joined: 24 Feb 2016

PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hmm. A few more questions, if you don't mind discussing:

- on maps with no water, if we enable teching up for the GDI side after capturing a GDI MCV, there will still be no crashes, right? So, perhaps, the "No Navy" script in multi (skirmish, coop) should contain necessary modifications as well?
- similar adjustments can be done to missions / coop where such adjustments are necessary?

I sometimes do the mcv-hijack trick in hardcore skirmish with many extreme AIs (one or two allied, to help holding the non-stopping flood of enemy units, when my ally creates an extra MCV (he somehow always have 2 extra MCVs ready. Engiphobia at its finest, seemingly). Having the Ion Cannon altogether with two nukes actually helps a lot.

Of course, I still can start as GDI, but then I'll miss the most engi-cheesy soviet build I've ever seen since OpenRA (long long ago):
POWR, AFLD, ((BARR,E6) + TRAN), then a race for enemy conyards, quickly captured then transported back to my base by the chinook.

I always succeed in stealing two CYs, sometimes I even go for the third Laughing

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^Rampastein
Rampastring


Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Location: Gensokyo

PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

As has been stated already, the crash has been fixed. The game doesn't crash anymore. The limited build options are another engine limitation that we are unable to fix right now.

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Isaac_The_Madd
AA Infantry


Joined: 16 Jul 2015

PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I don't know how but, at one point I managed to get over 75 cameos on screen without it crashing... then I made some changes and it crashed.

You could make a unholy alliance mode by merging all duplicates.

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Einhander
Cyborg Soldier


Joined: 17 Apr 2014

PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

But the problem I see with that is the lack of buildable space on maps. While interesting and neat, this would place additional emphasis for custom level that are exceedingly large which could create some frame dropping or other issues with a full map with all the things.

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