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Twisted Dawn - Nod: Black Hand infantry
Moderators: Aro, Crimsonum, ErastusMercy, Lin Kuei Ominae, ^Rampastein
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Demo
Vehicle Driver


Joined: 04 Apr 2016
Location: Netherlands - Groningen

PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 3:31 pm    Post subject:  Twisted Dawn - Nod: Black Hand infantry
Subject description: The predecessor of the Nod Cyborgs
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Hello, let me introduce myself: my name is Demo. First of all, I would like to applaud you guys for the amazing work, I love it! Especially the aesthetical part of the game is magnificent and with that I especially mean the Nod bases, it's something particular I love about RTS games. I've been following your mod for around a year or more, and until now haven't gathered enough motivation to establish contact with you developers.

To get on to the point: I regularly play the mod, and mostly as Nod. Since Nod makes extensive usage of the Cyborg heavy infantry, my suggestion is to add the famous and notorious Black Hand infantry in the game, similar to the units present in C&C Renegade, set in a period similar to the Twisted Dawn era. Because this game shows much similarities in terms of vehicle-usage or design, it's advised to make the unit resemble that of the aforementioned game. It adds consistency to the Nod-battle doctrine.

Gameplay-wise and balance-wise it's completely up to you, but it would be great to include these units to enhance the ambience of Nod and to diversify strategic approachments.

Now, who wouldn't love to have expensive (and weakly/medium-ish armed) pre-Ghosts, aka Stealth Black Hands? If you have no idea how to balance such a unit, you can find inspiration in the Dune 2000 game, and look at the so-called Fremen infantry. They would be best against infantry, but in strong numbers, they can also easily level down a building or even armored vehicles due to their versatile firepower effectiveness.

Or a Heavy Black Hand, with a role similar to that of the GloboTech Guardian? It would fire in a volley of bullets, but instead of effectively exterminate infantry units only, it would be effective against vehicles as well. The few drawbacks it should have would be the production cost and a really slow movement speed. (Resembling the speed of the Incinerator)

Considering the Black Hand sniper fulfills the exact same role as that of the GDI sniper, it might be a wise decision to leave that role out of gameplay. Another option is to create only one of the variant of Black Hand division, but hopefully it will resemble a role similar to that of the distinctive units in Renegade. The idea is to implement them as a predecessor of the Nod cyborgs: heavily armed and specialised.

Of course, with this addition comes up a rework in the current style of gameplay; GDI needs something to counter this. Perhaps it's a quick idea to include the GDI sniper from Twisted Insurrection to Twisted Dawn, or buff the GDI infantry personnel overall so that they are slightly stronger than Nod mercenaries, but slightly worse than Black Hands. As like always, Nod often triumphed when it comes to infantry combat. Even though a Nod stealth attack might seem overpowered, they would be easily countered by a Advanced Turret with sensors.

To judge, I'd say GDI is stronger than Nod in the Twisted-Dawn custom game, purely because they can spam Mammoth Tanks, which is hardly countered with the Obelisks of Lights. Hence why I think this is a good idea, to allow Nod to attack enemy bases as well from up close.

Keep on progressing, we love your job! In future, you will definitely hear again from me.

Cheers!

Last edited by Demo on Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:25 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Aro
Alcohol Fueled


Joined: 10 Sep 2006

PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Demo, thanks for your kind words. We're glad that you're enjoying Twisted Insurrection. Smile

I think you might be in on a good idea, actually. I personally have been considering whether or not we should add some new infantry into the Twisted Dawn timeline tech-tree (TI Era definitely doesn't need any more infantry in it's list for GDI or Nod), since we're not following up on Tiberian Dawn 100%, Ratel APCs and Avenger HumVees for example are our own take on and additions to the Dawn tech tree, plus of course The Infector fills the role of Nod's commando unit there.

In any case, I think the addition of a new infantry unit for both GDI and Nod would be a nice addition to the Twisted Dawn mode, it's not going to be a high priority as we have quite a lot left to do, but we'll definitely discuss ideas (Black Hand has actually been mentioned regularly).

Just for your information however, Mammoth Tanks are capped at 5 at a time, so are SSM Launchers, A-10 Warthogs and Tiberium Bombers. We're aware that the AI used to spam Mammoth Tanks, but this should be fixed in the public version.

Thanks for your input, don't hesitate to share more thoughts or feedback with us in the future.

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Sirius007
Medic


Joined: 17 Nov 2016

PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Perhaps use the Elite Cadre model as a basis

Since NOD won the war (and the events of Renegade never happen) shouldn't the Black Hand be more powerful and numerous than in OTL?

Maybe have the Black Hand Trooper use Laser Damage with a High-firing rate. Also immunity to Tiberium

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PussyPus
Commander


Joined: 14 Jul 2015
Location: Egypt

PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I like meeting with new joiners, Hi! Smile

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Sirius007
Medic


Joined: 17 Nov 2016

PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Maybe there should be a Black Hand Tank in the Singleplayer Campaigns of both TD and TI

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ErastusMercy
Energy Commando


Joined: 13 Nov 2007
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've been considering making the Renegade Flame Tank, G6 Rhino Howitzer and possibly the Light Tank for sometime. Though I'm not sure if the latter one is necessary, the TI era Scorpion could have started life with the Black Hand.

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Demo
Vehicle Driver


Joined: 04 Apr 2016
Location: Netherlands - Groningen

PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ErastusMercy wrote:
I've been considering making the Renegade Flame Tank, G6 Rhino Howitzer and possibly the Light Tank for sometime. Though I'm not sure if the latter one is necessary, the TI era Scorpion could have started life with the Black Hand.


Isn't the current Pyradon Flame Tank already the exact same version to that of the flame tank in Renegade? They both seem to have dual huge grey tanks of hell  Laughing

In regard to the Scorpion Tank; perhaps you could make a prototype version of the tank for TD era. Let's say, a toned down damage infliction or even a whole different fire mechanism?

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Damfoos
Rocket Infantry


Joined: 27 Mar 2016

PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I like the idea of prototypes, especially when those are slightly different from the final units, both in stats and visuals. It adds additional depth to campaigns, because you can see how a faction got this unit trough R&D, instead of simple "general, our scientists have invented yet another weapon, use it wisely". I've edited the GDI Railgun once to use it in that GDI mission where you retreive the prototype, as I felt this color scheme reflects the prototype state better.




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Graion Dilach
Defense Minister


Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary

PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ErastusMercy wrote:
I've been considering making the Renegade Flame Tank and possibly the Light Tank


Yes, please do, I loved those designs!

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"If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
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ErastusMercy
Energy Commando


Joined: 13 Nov 2007
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Demo wrote:
Isn't the current Pyradon Flame Tank already the exact same version to that of the flame tank in Renegade? They both seem to have dual huge grey tanks of hell  Laughing


The Renegade Flame Tank had a different design, was a bit tougher and had a fully functional turret. Don't worry though it'd be a campaign asset.

@Damfoos: So something like this?



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Aro
Alcohol Fueled


Joined: 10 Sep 2006

PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Erastus and I were talking about Dawn additions the other day, we're quite confident we can squeeze in some additions to break up the story a little bit. Smile

Prototype looks Pro, well done!

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Demo
Vehicle Driver


Joined: 04 Apr 2016
Location: Netherlands - Groningen

PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ErastusMercy wrote:
Demo wrote:
Isn't the current Pyradon Flame Tank already the exact same version to that of the flame tank in Renegade? They both seem to have dual huge grey tanks of hell  Laughing


The Renegade Flame Tank had a different design, was a bit tougher and had a fully functional turret. Don't worry though it'd be a campaign asset.

@Damfoos: So something like this?


Just checked, indeed you're right. The short appearance of the Renegade Flame Tank would enhance the evolvement of the Nod vehicles greatly, good stuff for background lore. Smile

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Damfoos
Rocket Infantry


Joined: 27 Mar 2016

PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

@Erastus yep, that's the prototype this city needs Very Happy

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Demo
Vehicle Driver


Joined: 04 Apr 2016
Location: Netherlands - Groningen

PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I might have found a fun suggestion for another prototype vehicle for late TD/early TI:

"While it too had issues, namely it's targeting software, the developers pulled together and showed everyone what it means to be in The Brotherhood. They sacrificed their base AI and worked non-stop to perfect the design and software so that, upon its release, the Viper was the equal and more to its predecessors."

This quote is derived from the description of the Viper Drone. As you can see the earlier versions lacked an advanced AI and targeting system. I have thought out; perhaps you could give the prototype version of the Viper the berzerk mode when below a certain %HP just like the cyborgs? The Viper would turn neutral and fire at both enemies and friendlies alike.

A different idea (and personally my favored one) is to design a mission revolving around the R&D of the Viper. The Viper would be not directly commanded as it has a "basic AI", but would follow a so-called commander unit (Any unit you can control) and follow them and fire at enemies. Similar to the civilians following the Peacekeepers in Globotech Mission 1: Unity. The mission setting would be at a small Viper Manufacturing Base conducting field test that results in a disaster as GDI tries to destroy the Nod base through infiltration (As you know, GDI is mostly covert at this point of chronology.). The only available units will be the main basic units from the barracks and the Nod Viper.

On a side note; it would be fun to add a non-functional placeholder for the so-called competitor Cobra, as they were trying to figure which of the two was more qualitative for combat.

"While it too had issues, namely it's targeting software, the developers pulled together and showed everyone what it means to be in The Brotherhood." This sentence signifies how well the Viper would perform at the so-called invasion of GDI. Make it seem like they have potential but didn't reach that perfect spot yet.

At this point of the story, GDI would be already somewhat outnumbered and Nod would have rising numbers of strongholds across the world. It would be similar to the Mechanical Man in terms of bases, but as Nod triumphed in the first Tiberium War and preparing for monopoly most of the bases would be under construction, so most of the stationary defenses are non-functional and yet to be completed. Hence why the Viper Manufacturing Base would be smaller in size than the Cyborg Production Base.

Does this sound like a fun idea?

Additional note: Since Nod won the first war, the popularity of the Brotherhood probably reached its peak. Despite this, Nod did have rebelling civilians aiding GDI as confirmed in the intro of Mission 1. Perhaps the Nod base in case is set amidst a city with rebellious civilians/undercover GDI agents?

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Last edited by Demo on Mon Nov 28, 2016 8:18 pm; edited 1 time in total

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redfox34
Vehicle Drone


Joined: 16 Feb 2012

PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

^ That sounds like a neat idea!

Just wanted to pop in to say that if any hover prototypes were made (say of a Hov-vee, Wasp APC, etc), it might be fun to give them "drunk", unwieldy movement.   AR2 did that with the Leviathan artillery back in the day.  Dunno if that can be done on the TS engine in the same way.

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Demo
Vehicle Driver


Joined: 04 Apr 2016
Location: Netherlands - Groningen

PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

All these suggestions are fun and nice, anyway...

Regarding the first suggestion about the Black Hand, may I ask how progression has been so far on this?

Thanks in advance!

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