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How should we organize our voxels?
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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:52 pm    Post subject:   How should we organize our voxels?
Subject description: Post your sugestions here.
Reply with quote

Hello everyone! Our hashtag/keyword system is progressing well and we already have methods to export/organize posts based on their keywords.

I'd like to build a system where visitors will be able to download voxels based on its features (i.e.: Land, Robot, Tank, DoubleBarreled) or even its models (i.e.: M1 Abrams).

The problem is... how do we organize our hashtags to build such system?

Here's what we have so far (and this post will be updated based on your feeedback):


Shape:
- Vehicles
- - Cars
- - Trucks
- - Tanks
- - Trains
- - Mechs
- - Airplanes
- - Helicopters
- - Zeppelins
- - UnknownFlyingObject
- - Ships
- - Boats
- - Submarines
- - SpaceShips
- - Satellites
- Buildings
- Robots
- Organic
- - Animals
- - Humans
- - Plants
- - Aliens

Weapons:
- HandToHand
- Cannon
- Missile
- Energy (laser, prism, railgun etc)
- Electrical
- AreaEffect
- Spawned
- NonCombat
- Turreted
- NonTurreted
- SingleBarreled
- MultiBarreled
- Nuke

Roles:
- MeleeCombat
- LightTanks
- MediumTanks
- HeavyTanks
- MammothTanks
- AntiInfantry
- AntiAir
- Artillery
- TankDestroyer
- Support
- Scout
- Teleporter
- Gunboats
- Fighters
- Bombers
- Carriers
- Destroyers
- Cruisers
- Battleships
- Corvettes
- Frigates
- Galleons
- Gunboats
- Factory
- PowerPlants
- Radar
- TechCenter
- EconomyStructures
- BaseDefenses
- TechBuildings

Design:
- Realistic (proportions and details match objects in reality)
- Fantasy (e.g. Yuri disc, Megamind, Prism tank)
- Modern (things that would fit from their design in the era from 1970-2020)
- Classic (older stuff like propeller planes, steam locomotives etc)
- Medieval
- Futuristic (e.g. GDI Hover MLRS, MMKII, Prism tank which could be also classified as #Fantasy)

Faction:
- GDI
- Nod
- Forgotten
- CABAL
- Scrin
- Allies
- Soviets
- Yuri
- EmpireOfTheRisingSun
- America
- EU (European Union)
- China
- GLA (Global Liberation Army)
- Civilians

Locomotion:
- Tracked
- Wheeled
- Walker
- - Bipedals
- - Quadrupedals
- Hover
- Subterranean
- Winged
- Rocket
- AntiGravity (e.g. Yuri disc)
- Balloon

MovementZone:
- Land
- Air
- Naval
- Space

Game:
- TiberianSun
- Firestorm
- RedAlert2
- YurisRevenge
- OpenRA

Model
- ArmouredPersonalCarrier
- BattleFortress
- BatMobile
- BM21Grad
- Bunker
- ChronoPrison
- Conscript
- DemoTruck
- Ferdinand
- FlakTrack
- GAZ3937
- GAZVodnik
- Hind
- Helix
- KamovKa52
- Katyusha
- LancerMech
- Mi24
- Mirage
- MobileWarFactory
- MissileLauncher
- PrismTrooper
- RailGunTank
- SandViper
- SpyPlane
- Rifleman
- TankBunker
- TechIrradiator
- Titan
- Treant
- UralTyphoon
- WarFactory


Other References:
- DarkWorld (movie)
- GAZ
- Halloween
- ZeroHour (game, expansion pack from C&C Generals)

Key Words: #Hashtags #Voxels #PPMForums #Organization 

Last edited by Banshee on Sun Jan 08, 2017 2:50 pm; edited 40 times in total

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks good and well detailed.

Quote:
- - Naval
- - - Ships
- - - - Destroyers
- - - - Cruisers
- - - Boats
- - - Submarines
I would suggest instead
- - Naval
- - - War Ships
- - - Civil Ships
- - - Boats
- - - Submarines

Destroyers and Cruisers are too detailed, as this could then also quickly lead to many other categories like Battleship, Carrier, Frigate, Gunboat, Corvette, Support, Scout etc etc.
Sometimes this could then also lead to confusion if one voxeler calls his huge voxel a gunboat while another calls his small voxel a battleship.
Then it might be better to have only 3 categories
- - - War Ships
- - - - small (smaller 100 voxel length)
- - - - medium (100-175 voxel length)
- - - - capital (175-255 voxel length)


Quote:
- - - Tanks
- - - - Light Tanks
- - - - - M1 Abrams
- - - - Medium Tanks
- - - - Heavy Tanks
- - - - Mammoth Tanks
- - - - Anti-Air Tanks
- - - - Miscelaneous Tanks

This seems rather detailed too, especially when you want to cover all other types like Artillery, Scout, Support, Epic units, Bikes, APCs etc etc.
I would suggest something more generic like
- - - Tanks
- - - - Tracked
- - - - - Cannon
- - - - - Missile launcher
- - - - - MG
- - - - - High-tech weapon (laser, railgun, sonic, chrono, mindcontrol etc)
- - - - Wheeled
- - - - - Cannon
- - - - - Missile launcher
- - - - - MG
- - - - - High-tech weapon (laser, railgun, sonic, chrono, mindcontrol etc)
- - - - Miscelaneous Tanks
- - - - Subterranean
- - - - Hover
When you search a unit for your mod, you usually have a role already in mind but not an exact type of unit nor a name.
With this you would then easier get a list of units fulfilling your criteria.



No clue how to implement this, but some kind of rating would be nice too.
e.g. show only 5* voxel
show all voxel better than 3*
etc
4* and 5* would be the current spotlighted voxels


Quote:
- Robots
- - Land
- - Air
- - Naval
- - Space

would that also include Mechs like the TS Titan?
A "- Walker" category might be good too, for all bipedal, quadruped and other walking, sliding, flapping and wriggling units, using all kinds of unusual locomotion.
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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your feedback has been implemented in the list.

Quote:
Destroyers and Cruisers are too detailed, as this could then also quickly lead to many other categories like Battleship, Carrier, Frigate, Gunboat, Corvette, Support, Scout etc etc.


The higher the amount of categories, the better. We must ensure that we cover everything that everyone could search.

Quote:
Sometimes this could then also lead to confusion if one voxeler calls his huge voxel a gunboat while another calls his small voxel a battleship.


We need to take into account the intention of the author of the voxel model. Also, the amount of voxels used doesn't necessarily mean that the voxel is bigger. It just means more details. The size of the model in the screen is also determined by other variables.


Quote:
This seems rather detailed too, especially when you want to cover all other types like Artillery, Scout, Support, Epic units, Bikes, APCs etc etc.
I would suggest something more generic like


I've mixed both together.

Quote:
No clue how to implement this, but some kind of rating would be nice too.
e.g. show only 5* voxel
show all voxel better than 3*
etc
4* and 5* would be the current spotlighted voxels


I've tried to reach new criterias to spotlight here and it seems that things have gone nowhere. So, at the moment, I'm leaving this idea in the stand by. However, we could use #5Stars, #4Stars, #3Stars, #2Stars and #1Star hashtags to rate voxels, if we had a proper criteria in mind.


Quote:
would that also include Mechs like the TS Titan?


Technically, Mechs are driven by humans. Humans must be inside them. So, I've added Mechs to Vehicles instead.

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G-E
General


Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Notwithstanding your need to over-define units, the relative type and size will be the predominant criteria.

The problem with breaking down things like destroyers vs corvettes vs frigates, there's no uniform guideline that defines what these things are, or what size ship they have to be. Often their very definition changes over time, what we think of as a cruiser today is much smaller than just after WW2, and that's not including mixed-role vessels.

For aircraft you have a similar problem, the F22 is an air dominance fighter with tactical nuke bombing capability, so is it a fighter or a bomber?

If we go the literal route and decide a bomber is only a bomber if it can't dogfight, or if it doesn't have missiles, or if it has a minimum payload or whatnot, how does the game identify any of these things specifically? The F35 is even more confused, and there's several versions of it that all look the same. It's purely notional.

Also not too sure about using a particular weapon as a category, except in the case of an SPG, or train mounted long-range cannon where it is literally a rolling weapon. That said the "high-tech" suggestion is a good one, except that it encompasses too many potential technologies, so I suggest breaking that down a bit:

high-tech
-energy weapon
-electrical weapon
-projectile weapon
-area effect weapon
-seismic weapon
-drone or spawned weapon
-non-combat
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MadHQ
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have though about this truthfully...

I do not know if keywords system would be the best... And a user would probably still have to check each topic...

Wouldn't it almost be better to set up a PHP script to farm through the forums database's: vxl spotlight and voxel section...

And if need be set up a secondary database to improve the returns (downloads, IE... Add images, pointers to finished complete download...)...
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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's something you guys don't get: a post may have unlimited keywords. So, a F22 would get both #Bomber and #Fighter tags.

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wouldn't that make the search ambiguous again?
Nearly all planes would then end up having the keywords #Fighter and #Bomber.

I think the keywords should concentrate only on physical characteristics like size, color scheme (GDI, Yuri etc), Wheeled/Winged/Tracked/Walker etc.

If something is a Fighter or a Bomber or a Scout depends on the modder and what kind of role/weapon he gives this unit.

G-E made that clear about ship classes, which aren't clear as well.

My suggested size criteria could also use ingame size in length of pixel, not the length/number of voxel. It doesn't has to be super exact, but it would help a lot to narrow down the search.
With the search for #Fighter you could currently also get a huge B2 Bomber, which happens to have missiles under its wings.

While a search for #Aircraft #Small #Realistic #Modern would narrow down the search better.

Thus as criterias i would suggest the following
Size:
#Small (fit inside a cell)
#Medium (bigger than a cell but less than 2 cells)
#Big (2 cells size and bigger)
#Huge (close to maximum possible sizes)

Design:
#Realistic (proportions and details match objects in reality)
#Fantasy (e.g. Yuri disc, Megamind, Prism tank)
#Modern (things that would fit from their design in the era from 1970-2020)
#Classic (older stuff like propeller planes, steam locomotives etc)
#Futuristic (e.g. GDI Hover MLRS, MMKII, Prism tank which could be also classified as #Fantasy)

Color Scheme:
#Gold (e.g. for GDI)
#Metallic (e.g. Nod)
#Beige (e.g. Soviet)
#Blue (e.g. Allies)
#Brown (e.g. Yuri)
#Green
#Black&Darkgrey

Locomotion:
#Tracked
#Wheeled
#Walker
#Hover
#Subterranean
#Winged
#Rocket
#Anti-Grav (e.g. Yuri disc)

Weapon:
#Cannon
#Missile (not to be confused with Locomotion #Rocket)
#Energy (laser, prism, railgun etc)
#Electrical
#Area Effect
#Spawned
#Non-Combat
#Turreted
#Non-Turreted
#SingleBarreled
#MultiBarreled

With these few categories and those keywords, i think you would get very easy some nice exact results, as they can cover nearly all voxel.

When you need a mammoth voxel you could then search for
#Big, #Tracked, #Realistic, #Futuristic, #Cannon, #Missile, #Turreted, #MultiBarreled
It would of course also deliver other voxel, but i think it narrows down the search well enough.
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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I do not know if keywords system would be the best... And a user would probably still have to check each topic...

Wouldn't it almost be better to set up a PHP script to farm through the forums database's: vxl spotlight and voxel section...

And if need be set up a secondary database to improve the returns (downloads, IE... Add images, pointers to finished complete download...)...


I don't think there is any need to do that. I can execute some sql queries straight from phpMyAdmin to speed up the process of adding keywords to existing Voxels, but I need to know which Keywords should be added, which is why this topic was created in first place. Also, we can't totally rely on such script and we'd need to verify all voxels manually anyway, since some of the features from the models are not mentioned by the users in the voxel topic.

Regarding the current voxel submission rate... it is hardly more than 5 decent voxels per month, so humans can handle it pretty easily. Also, we won't be indexing every voxel. Only those who have a minimum quality levels based on user feedback, which is something we've been already tracking for over an year with the News Tracker. Older voxels (outside the Spotlighted Voxels section) will still need to be analyzed and validated by humans anyway.


Quote:
Wouldn't that make the search ambiguous again?
Nearly all planes would then end up having the keywords #Fighter and #Bomber.

I think the keywords should concentrate only on physical characteristics like size, color scheme (GDI, Yuri etc), Wheeled/Winged/Tracked/Walker etc.

If something is a Fighter or a Bomber or a Scout depends on the modder and what kind of role/weapon he gives this unit.


This wouldn't be a problem. Our objective is to show the visitors which voxels could fit certain features. If a certain voxel could fit multiples classifications that might be ambiguous between them, it wouldn't be a problem at all. If I can use a certain model as a bomber or as a fighter, the user needs to know that it can be used as a bomber or as a fighter. It is ok. It's up to the user to make the right choice.


Using criterias out of the hierarchy such as you suggested is indeed an interesting idea. I'll re-work on the first topic with your ideas as soon as I deal with some real life stuff first.

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G-E
General


Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with LKO, there should be no heirarchy, not only because it limits future categorization for unorthodox new designs.

I don't think colour scheme needs to be a keyword, it's easy enough to change. You could however add particular wars like #koreanwar, because at least then entire paint scheme might have a certain flavour to it. Likewise with #desert or #arctic schemes.

Size is a tricky one, what's small for a vessel isn't necessarily small for an aircraft, so they will be subjective either way, just leave them as a generic trait.

The basic attributes should be fairly obvious, flying, wheeled, turreted, etc. I would avoid acronyms and colloquial names as much as possible. Anti-gravity is really no different than hover, but you could add something like floating which indicates a slower form of air travel, and above hovering.

The age classes are interesting, maybe add vintage, scifi, modern, historical, medieval etc...

Might also add other descriptors like wreck, debris, damaged etc for use as decorations?
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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, I've updated the first post, adding most of LKO's ideas.

I didn't add Size because it is polemic, hard to do any classification, as G-E mentioned.

And I also agree with G-E at not adding color schemes. At least not for now. I don't see them as being that much relevant for voxels. It is more useful for SHPs, which is something we will work on later.

I am also cutting abbreviations and I think that Anti-Gravity is different than Hover and it has a relevant difference, so I'm keeping it for now.

I've added Medieval to the design class, although I doubt we'll find Medieval voxels for a while.

Regarding other descriptions... they might be relevant for SHPs and I may add them later. But, for voxels, they seem to be unnecessary.

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G-E
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Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Galleons? Aside from spelling, are there such things as metal galleons? Were you planning to add caravels and sloops and other sailing ships too? Smile
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4StarGeneral
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Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Location: Hiram, GA, US

PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee wrote:
Quote:
No clue how to implement this, but some kind of rating would be nice too.
e.g. show only 5* voxel
show all voxel better than 3*
etc
4* and 5* would be the current spotlighted voxels


I've tried to reach new criterias to spotlight here and it seems that things have gone nowhere. So, at the moment, I'm leaving this idea in the stand by. However, we could use #5Stars, #4Stars, #3Stars, #2Stars and #1Star hashtags to rate voxels, if we had a proper criteria in mind.


I think Zero18 had the right idea there where there should be a poll and you could just script it to take the rating from the poll:
Zero18 wrote:
You can add like poll system for each voxel, much like a rating system with 1 being bad, low quality to 5 being the best, high quality.

And to vote on the older voxels instead of going down the topics, make some button in the voxel forum or wherever that shows which ones you haven't voted on. That way I think the older voxels 15 pages back would get some votes at least and the system would be more complete.
(Unless someone makes 50 accounts to screw up the votes #Tongue)

Key Words: #Spotlight 

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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
Galleons? Aside from spelling, are there such things as metal galleons? Were you planning to add caravels and sloops and other sailing ships too? Smile


If people make caravel voxels, why not? I don't see any problem with that. And the spelling was fixed in the first post, of course Wink.

@4StarGeneral: We do not want to measure popularity from voxels. It's a matter of quality. To rate properly the quality of a voxel model, you need a proper criteria and reliable people who are able to follow the defined criteria.

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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, guys... sorry for bumping but... are there any other suggestions before we start with what we have so far?

If nobody points out anything else, I'll start to add the hashtags to voxels. Remember that this list might be expanded as soon as we find voxels with different shapes, weapon types, locomotors, design and roles. There is a possibility of adding color schemes and factions later...


We'll soon have a search system in the forums to find posts with certain hashtags and a voxel repository at the main site. This same system can be used in the future as a database for a Quick Mod Prototype Builder, that could adapt the resources from PPM forums to accommodate your mod factions and requirements.

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
- - Zepelins

with 2 p
- - Zeppelins

Quote:
Weapons:

- Nuke
could be useful for those big SSM rocket launcher like V2 remakes.

Quote:
Roles:

- Artillery

Quote:
Locomotion:

- Float/Balloon
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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, buddy. First post has been updated with your changes, except that for the locomotor, I'm keeping Balloon only for now, although I have a feeling that it could be better to replace balloon and anti-gravity with float.

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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With the forum hashtag search feature ready, this topic has became my reference to index voxels and SHPs. And, as soon as our referenced resource list grows, the list above will receive updates. Specially with the model names. You can use the list in the first post to find related resources to each of these tags. Have fun.

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i get a "not logged in" page when clicking on any item in the list.

\Edit
oh, on all links is an s missing on www.ppmforums.com. they all point to www.ppmforum.com which is an entirely different forum.
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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's what happens when things are done in a rush. Anyway, this problem has been fixed now and properly tested.

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We need a #SHP, #Building and #Animation for SHPs
Not sure if too much, but maybe also
#BaseDefense
#PowerPlant
#Radar
#TechCenter
#Warfactory
etc

Is it also necessary to have a #Voxels #SHP hashtag? Can't the hashtag search simply be restricted to the respective subforum?
I only fear there will soon be so many hashtags, that we need a search for the search and that things get unnecessary ambiguous.

In future the hashtags for the VXL/SHP subforums should be also fixed and only selectable from a predefined list, not allowing the user to enter anything crazy.
It surely then also helps to avoid errors like some having #Voxel and others #Voxels or some simple typo in the hashtag e.g. #Biulding.
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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want to specifically download voxels, you need to use #Voxels #Downloads hashtags together with whatever you are looking for. And, in the future, for SHPs, it will be #Download #SHPs as well.

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DonutArnold
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there any progress with this asset rating and hashtag system?

It's been quite a while since new spotlights and some of them (especially SHPs) doesn't match with today's standards anymore.

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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Updates happens along with the assets that gets hastagged.

However, due to pure lazyness, I've stopped hashtagging the recently submitted assets.

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MadHQ
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee wrote:
However, due to pure lazyness, I've stopped hashtagging the recently submitted assets.


I hate to say this, but this is why this system was not a great one...

A true user submitted and controlled system would work better.
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Banshee
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Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This system has a lot of room for improvements. First of all, it needs a proper interface to make the resources easier to classify. Right now I need to consult this topic to add the keywords for each interesting topic. Such interface could be useful for users who are submitting their resources, as well as those who are searching for resources.

But I had to stop working on it because of my doctorate thesis.

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EVA-251
General


Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Location: Somewhere in Michigan, I suppose.

PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMO, it's best to keep it simple.

Go with Air, Land and Sea.

The most complicated I would go is breaking Air down into Helicopter/Fixed Wing/Other and Land into Tracked/Wheeled/Mech/Other
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TS/RA2/YR modder/artist, DOOM mapper, aka evanb90
Project Lead Developer, New-Star Strike (2014-)
Former Project Lead Developer Star Strike (2005-2012), Z-Mod (2006-2007), RA1.5 (2008-2013), The Cold War (2006-2007)

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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is more simple indeed, but it conflicts with one of my objectives of providing a database that could be used to recognize, assimilate and generate graphical objects by future applications (which is the reason why only decent submissions have approved keywords).

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