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 Forum index » Modding Central » Red Alert 2 Editing Forum » Ares (Unofficial Forum)
Ares Logic Suggestions
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PussyPus
Energy Commando


Joined: 14 Jul 2015
Location: The Arab Country, Time Travel?

PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 11:32 am    Post subject:   Ares Logic Suggestions
Subject description: Do we need another mode?
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Hi, it's my first time to start my own topic for suggesting new ares logics, here are what i want to suggest for:

1st: The 'Renegade' Mode, it should have the following content:
1. begin game with mcv, and build buildings, those buildings costs should be cut by 50% in this mode only.
2. force resolution to the lowest (640x480).
3. disallowed map control (mini map active normally but can't control units from there).
4. entire tanya, boris and yuri prime can be built after infiltrating battle labs, depending on what faction you chose.
5. any unit should be followed by the screen like pressing 'F' on any objects, but permanently.
6. you can make a unit or a building to work as AI mode as you desire by adding new control hotkey.

2nd: Logics Not Supported By Ares Yet like:
1. Tunnel Network
2. Movable BuildingType
3. Tertiary Weapon (there are Primary and Secondary i think)
4. BuildingType Deploys into Different Versions & Purposes with a building animation.

They might not be possible but in the future it will.
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Last edited by PussyPus on Thu May 18, 2017 8:09 pm; edited 2 times in total

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NucleiSplitter
Cyborg Cannon


Joined: 28 Oct 2016
Location: Somewhere in Asia

PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tertiary Weapons are possible! But it's pretty complex for newcomers in modding, so you should've just stated a 'Tertiary=' tag, but that is a nice idea though...

Renegade mode? Is that like C&C Renegade in Westwood 2D Engine?
Well, not a bad idea, custom coding is required, I don't see how it's possible in Ares 0.Cp1

Movable BuildingTypes? Why not just create a vehicle that transforms into a building?
(e.g. Slave Miner, except it's artwork is a shp that has 8 facings)

Ever heard of Terrain Expansion?

And one last thing, if this thread is for public opinions...
The Feature I'd really like in RA2/YR, is that the last Death Frame of an infantry would be used if it dies instead of the decaying bones and be kept on the map, but the flame-death and shock-death should be kept so that the normal artwork lf the infantry dosen't necessarily have to be edited, when the infantry died of electricution, it should have the normal flame-death and shock-death and it won't be kept in the map showing it's last frame of death. Basically a Realistic Death using a tag in the [General] section called 'RealisticDeath=' defaults to no
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Starkku
Tiberian Beast


Joined: 28 Dec 2007
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know you can override the decaying skeletons animations on per infantry basis by listing DeadBodies on InfantryTypes?
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chr0nicz420
Grenadier


Joined: 10 Feb 2016

PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even though I believe this idea was rejected before:

- Overlord logic.

And I'll still be wishing for this until this has been implemented.

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TAK02
Railgun Soldier


Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: ERROR: This guy is out of this world!

PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, you mean expandable pop-caps like in SC for the Zerg! Unfortunatly, C&C games that aren't C&C4 or later use a simple principle regarding that: "Can you afford this unit/building?" "Yes." "BUILDING...". So, it's unrecodable hard-coding, really. But if it were possible, it would've been made an option.
Why non-C&C games never used that and instead opted for both an expandable pop-cap AND resource-collection is beyond me.
The closest one could get to your idea is using a collective BuildLimit which applies to all units, but then it wouldn't be expandable without creating replicas of, well, everything, which in turn has its own BuildLimit for those, which may or may not exceed the originals'...
Maybe some combo of both BuildLimit and GroupAs logics?
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PussyPus
Energy Commando


Joined: 14 Jul 2015
Location: The Arab Country, Time Travel?

PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I focus on Renegade Mode, Turtle Mode and Tunnel Network logic.
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temp
Rocket Infantry


Joined: 17 Oct 2015

PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ares Devs aren't magicians...

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mevitar
Cyborg Firebomber


Joined: 31 Dec 2010

PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex' work isn't about implement gamemodes. Its about giving new tools so modders can create gamemodes themselves.

This Renegade Mode you mention is a game mode, not a tool. So i can already tell you that it won't happen.

Or, actually, it might happen, but only if you make it yourself. YR+Ares already provides plenty of tools to have such mode created.

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PussyPus
Energy Commando


Joined: 14 Jul 2015
Location: The Arab Country, Time Travel?

PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

temp wrote:
Ares Devs aren't magicians...


Temp's comeback!  Surprised
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temp
Rocket Infantry


Joined: 17 Oct 2015

PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PussyPus wrote:
temp wrote:
Ares Devs aren't magicians...


Temp's comeback!  Surprised


I am Zlixine.

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PussyPus
Energy Commando


Joined: 14 Jul 2015
Location: The Arab Country, Time Travel?

PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

temp wrote:
PussyPus wrote:
temp wrote:
Ares Devs aren't magicians...


Temp's comeback!  Surprised


I am Zlixine.


I know already, more things happened and you missed them since you were inactive, so i think you are back for your mod right?
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temp
Rocket Infantry


Joined: 17 Oct 2015

PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PussyPus wrote:
temp wrote:
PussyPus wrote:
temp wrote:
Ares Devs aren't magicians...


Temp's comeback!  Surprised


I am Zlixine.


I know already, more things happened and you missed them since you were inactive, so i think you are back for your mod right?


Nope.

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Millennium
Commander


Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Location: Osaka (JP)/Hong Kong/Germany

PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A few thoughts:
PussyPus wrote:

1st: The 'Renegade' Mode, it should have the following content:
1. begin game with mcv, and build buildings, those buildings costs should be cut by 50% in this mode only.
4. entire tanya, boris and yuri prime can be built after infiltrating battle labs, depending on what faction you chose.

Why would this require any modifications to the EXE?

Quote:

6. you can make a unit or a building to work as AI mode as you desire by adding new control hotkey.

This would, I concede, be immensely interesting. However, it is very generally reducible to the unit "stances" found in many other RTS games (AoE, Cossacks, Command & Conquer: Generals). While the YR UI doesn't support a visual interface for switching unit AI stances beyond AreaGuard and AttackMove (does this even work?), I could imagine that this could be expanded to include other missions. As for a unit chosing its mission by itself, I don't see that that will be possible.

Quote:

2. Movable BuildingType

Also agreed, though at some point, one has to ask what even constitutes the difference between the subtypes of the TechnoTypes, beyond the game engine's ontology. What would moveable buildings be good for? Perhaps the relevant building tags can instead be given to vehicles as an easier route. With suggestions like moveable BuildingTypes, VehicleTypes that can function as Factory and allowing units to occupy more than one cell, one has already greatly blurred the distinction between buildings and vehicles.

Quote:

3. Tertiary Weapon (there are Primary and Secondary i think)

There have long been requests for additional weapons, beyond three. This feature would most likely be implemented via the "WeaponN" tag.

Quote:

4. BuildingType Deploys into Different Versions & Purposes with a building animation.

Agreed, but in a more generalized form of enabling principally all TechnoType-to-TechnoType (or, hey, TechnoType-to-ObjectType) transitions.

TAK02 wrote:
Oh, you mean expandable pop-caps like in SC for the Zerg! Unfortunatly, C&C games that aren't C&C4 or later use a simple principle regarding that: "Can you afford this unit/building?" "Yes." "BUILDING...". So, it's unrecodable hard-coding, really. But if it were possible, it would've been made an option.
Why non-C&C games never used that and instead opted for both an expandable pop-cap AND resource-collection is beyond me.


Here is an interesting article I read ages ago on the rationale behind population caps in RTS:
http://www.rakrent.com/rtsc/html/econo4.htm
It seems that there are two considerations, one being to reduce workload on the machine the game is running on by reducing the number of units it has to simulate, the other accounts for that too, but also for the cases where that limit is expandable: it is merely a design choice for realistic-simulation purposes. (Of course, both the fixed "hard cap" and transgressable "sub-caps" can occur together in games - they do for example in StarCraft.) Given the era it was produced in, I find it actually more remarkable that C&C's designers never opted to introduce popcaps.

Quote:

The closest one could get to your idea is using a collective BuildLimit which applies to all units, but then it wouldn't be expandable without creating replicas of, well, everything, which in turn has its own BuildLimit for those, which may or may not exceed the originals'...
Maybe some combo of both BuildLimit and GroupAs logics?

Well, Ares already fixed the issue of buildings not counting towards the BuildLimit of the vehicle they deploy from (and vice versa) and the DeploysInto relation seems to be closely tied to the Select module that GroupAs works with. I am somewhat confident that GroupAs can be expanded to communicate its contents to the BuildLimit module. Of course, if one would also like to have actual per-unit BuildLimits in addition to a holistic BuildLimit, then GroupAs would have to be modified to take a list, rather than a string. (And doing that would allow for anything in-between the two: e.g. you may build 100 units in total, not more than 20 of which may be tanks, but of those tanks you may only build 1 Mammoth Tank. Now, making different units count at different values towards a popcap - that is a wholly different kind of beast and not one I can see Ares tackling.)
As for the expandable popcap: right now, that would require copies (perhaps several) of every unit, yes. But I can see the potential for a "AlterBuildLimit="-esque tag, accepting, in some form, a GroupAs group and a number by which to raise (or lower?) the BuildLimit of that group.

On that note, a question concerning a more humble feature request:
is it planned to introduce additional Veterancy levels or ColorAdd for warheads?

Edit:
On a second thought: In a sense, C&C _has_ a popcap in the sense of the logistics-simulation rationale spoken about in the article, although it does not prevent construction and applies only to buildings - and that is the Power system. Now, different BuildingTypes count for and against that resource at different rates (i.e. the Power= tag), which fulfills another criterion of a flexible popcap system. If Power was expanded to allow other types and to prevent the construction of units if it was insufficient (or produce them Unpowered, like a PoweredBy unit, rendering them useless and hence unlikely to be built by rational player when Power is too low), that could emulate a popcap. If that system could even be extended to provide an expansive list of "Power-like" resources to be implemented in the game, it would be possible to create a fine-grained popcap system...
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PussyPus
Energy Commando


Joined: 14 Jul 2015
Location: The Arab Country, Time Travel?

PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The number 4 for example the tesla reactor from the cancelled turtle mode, you can change the form of the buildingtype.
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4StarGeneral
Commander


Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Location: Constant Flux

PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want to change the form (read visuals + weapon) it can be done via the [BuildingType]?Upgrades= system. In all practicality this can now all be done with some moderate level modding (except for 5 and 6 because why?).
The only thing that can't be done is moving a buildingtype and there's a good reason for that as it would not be able to override terrain and 50,000 other things. If this were not a grid-based structure placement game and instead something like Generals and above, then it would actually be doable.
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Millennium
Commander


Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Location: Osaka (JP)/Hong Kong/Germany

PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Which is why I think that it's a more feasible route to make some building tags valid for VehicleTypes instead. Probably, the things people would want a mobile building to be would be a refinery, a factory - both could be stuck on vehicle types. I don't think upgrades can be made to work on vehicles though without a really deep rewrite.

Edit: typo
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Last edited by Millennium on Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:42 am; edited 1 time in total

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Atomic_Noodles
Defense Minister


Joined: 05 Oct 2011

PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the opposite end of wanting Vehicle Tags on Buildings I'm still interested on a Gunner Logic being also applicable to buildings.
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TAK02
Railgun Soldier


Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: ERROR: This guy is out of this world!

PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Question: Is it possible for Ares to store Globals? IIRC, RA2 didn't carry their Clear/Set states continuously, always forgetting them when making Auto-Saves.

I thought of storing said Globals' state in a seperate file/INI. Said Globals only change through map-triggers, not when the game saves/closes. (Yes, I know it sounds similar to a certain game's logic, but please don't spoil it's name here, would you? #Tongue)

Is that possible?
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YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRJ32BRTY8UPF49Ilq3rNDw
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Millennium
Commander


Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Location: Osaka (JP)/Hong Kong/Germany

PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Atomic_Noodles wrote:
On the opposite end of wanting Vehicle Tags on Buildings I'm still interested on a Gunner Logic being also applicable to buildings.

Seconded that. Smile I want to re-create WH40K's Tau Drone Sentry Turrets.
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