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 Forum index » Miscellaneous Forums » Game Chat » Command & Conquer Chat
Rise and fall of Command & Conquer
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Team Black
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 9:54 pm    Post subject:   Rise and fall of Command & Conquer Reply with quote

I got hooked on this one. A lot of stuff we already know, but still very interesting though





inb4 "seen it already"
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G-E
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yea I watched that several days ago, just reaffirmed my point, EA just doesn't give two shits about slow strategy games, they want it fast like SpamCraft.

We need a new developer who can bring back the essense of C&C, if there are any tropes that haven't been overused to guide it. To me the success of the C&C lineage was that it was familiar and followed the "just right" formula that doesn't get too micro-managerial, and I could feel that slipping away in Generals already. Oddly I loved Emperor, they did that one right.
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Deformat
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

seen it already

But on a serious note, the better question is:

What did Starcraft have that Command and Conquer did not?

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Lin Kuei Ominae
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

is that a video of the beta version at 0:31? Those 2 lane dirt stripes on ground don't exist in the final version.
The guard towers are also full remap, and not only the roof as in the final version.
I didn't know there is video footage of the beta version available.
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.....*cri* sad too that the modding aspect was a big part of keeping the series alive.

welp I would love more official ant levels. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deformat wrote:
But on a serious note, the better question is:

What did Starcraft have that Command and Conquer did not?


More content, better map editor, unit skins, epic story... there must be more... :/
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Lin Kuei Ominae
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PillBox20 wrote:
Deformat wrote:
What did Starcraft have that Command and Conquer did not?


More content, better map editor, unit skins, epic story... there must be more... :/

it probably also helped that the official company constantly provided bugfixes and balancing improvements over several years, so it became one of best balanced games ever.

I don't remember any patch for TS after Firestorm's release.
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wasn't FS horribly unbalanced too? IIRC, someone assumed that because of the Juggernauts being too buffed compared to Nod's Artillery... TS was slightly better tho, apparantly.
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Deformat
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was there any balanced CnC game besides RA3 and TW?

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Mechacaseal
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dependso n what you mean by balanced. I played Tiberian Sun Multiplayer since the day it came out almost daily up until now even. And I think GDI and Nod are very evenly matched even though they rely on completely different strategies. People who haven't played it long term in multiplayer may find some strategy to nitpick about because theyre newbies tho.

Yes firestorm expansion ruined Tiberian Sun's gameplay. They made disruptors and jumpjets move WAY faster. they made juggernauts and nod artillery miss moving targets which made them almost useless vs units that could fire while moving. The juggernaut was pretty useless. It was best used to hit big structures with rather than be a defensive unit.

orca bombers bombed differently. it added weird units like the reaper that had missiles that would hit random targets or miss all together. lots of useless additions like mobile war factory that was just pointless.

one of the dumbest things they did was make it so when you sold structures you got one or two infantry from the sell. so if someone infantry rushed you you couldnt just sell a few structures and get a ton of infantry. this made it so you had to invest money in infantry or youre pretty much dead if someone infantry rushes you.

a lot of people defend all these decisions as logical and realistic and good. but then again they dont play the game so what do they know which is why no one played firestorm. its broken beyond repair.

if you think tibwars and ra3 were the most balanced C&C games i dont agree. red alert 3 is very imbalanced. empire only has tengu and those turrets for anti air defense until they can tech up to chopper vs for example. which is very weak defense compared to soviet flak and allie rocket men. etc.  and empire's long range boats easily out class allied carriers and soviet  missile boats etc. tibwars is a unit spam game for the most part. id consider that pretty damn broken when you get spammed by 10000 laser tanks.

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Bittah Commander
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ickus wrote:
welp I would love more official ant levels. Very Happy

You can play DTA for that #Tongue



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Ickus
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember been spammed by disrupter carryalls all too often during TS' heyday.

While I recall the distant early milestones modding C&C has gone through. Thats my hook. From the hardcoded RA1 rules, replacing units, making campaign units build able in multiplayer to TS's freedom of adding new units was a big leap.

Granted now with Unity, Game Maker and other systems being more accessible, game development is now becoming more common place as updating one's livejournal? ( oh im aging my self.)...tumblr...

lurking for a while now, i see feel the appeal of modding. Projects like ARES, OpenRA and others.

@ Bittah always count on the modding community on something. DTA is one  crazy mod. It boggles the mind how TS is technically/mod-wise turned into a crazy mix of nostalgia. Wink
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Team Black
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LKO interesting observation. All evidence points to that as a beta, especially the "upgrade" button there probably left over from Dune 2 or something. (betcha Nyerguds would know)

Gotta say, that was some effective shameless self promotion there, Bittah. Lookin good!
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote





Redux version.
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Banshee
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This Redux version is much more accurate. Smile Great job for the guys who worked on it!

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TAK02
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm still kinda disappointed that big mods like RenX, W3D, OpenRA, MO, DTA, and TI (don't forget my Supremacy mods! #Tongue), weren't mentioned by name as the one thing keeping C&C alive.
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Mechacaseal
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee wrote:
This Redux version is much more accurate. Smile Great job for the guys who worked on it!

they didnt bring up that incursion was cancelled to work on generals because of september 11 terror attack. i am disappoint.

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Banshee
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@TAK02: The video is about Command & Conquer franchise. It is not about user created content, although they've made a very quick mention of it there.

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drive
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TAK02 wrote:
I'm still kinda disappointed that big mods like RenX, W3D, OpenRA, MO, DTA, and TI (don't forget my Supremacy mods! #Tongue), weren't mentioned by name as the one thing keeping C&C alive.


Most of the mods get mentioned by online articles, but only some mods like openRA, renegade X and mental omega attracts player to play on, others not. Sure they keep C&C alive but I think the most players will never return to C&C, or never discover it.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee wrote:
@TAK02: The video is about Command & Conquer franchise. It is not about user created content, although they've made a very quick mention of it there.

Modding is a part of C&C today tho, right?
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I tend to release things I create so that assets are never lost to hard drive problems, accidental deletion, or me having to pretend to care about rippers taking things from my project when it is done. #Tongue

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Banshee
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yea, but it is not made by any official developer of the Command & Conquer games. They've focused specifically at the developers of these games.

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PussyPus
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The series was bad since 2003 and not only 2010, because Westwood Studios would have made the series better and better, Anyway i was thinking what if westwood was still alive:

1. The 3rd installments of tiberium and red alert would have been better than those TW & RA3.
2. Renegade 2: Battlegrounds might have been released.
3. Renegade series might have been continuing.
4. The 4th installment of the tiberium might have better features and not like C&C4.
5. Even there might have been a 4th installment for red alert (red alert 4).
6. Zipper Interactive may have been risen by westwood themselves (Zipper was closed in 2012).
7. C&C series would have been invading most of RTS games between 2002 and present.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PussyPus wrote:
1. The 3rd installments of tiberium and red alert would have been better than those TW & RA3.

Westwood* already failed with Tiberian Sun. While TS was a good game, it wasn't anywhere near as great as it could've (and should've) been; it didn't meet fans' expectations. Tiberium Wars actually had pretty nice gameplay, arguably better than any Westwood C&C and any game made by the ex-WW staff at Petroglyph. So it's likely that a Westwood C&C3 would've had a better story (actually following Firestorm's ending) than EA's C&C3, but that would've likely come at the expense of worse gameplay, making the game not really better than TW.

* By Westwood I mean the original Westwood team that was responsible for TD, RA1 and TS. RA2 was made by a different team, and is noticeably more polished than TS.

It is hard to say whether the original team would've actually made a Red Alert 3 (or even 2) at all, considering it wouldn't have fit their existing story-line.

PussyPus wrote:
3. Renegade series might have been continuing.

I think it would've been unlikely. Renegade didn't really do well compared to the rest of the C&C series, or compared to other FPS games.

PussyPus wrote:
4. The 4th installment of the tiberium might have better features and not like C&C4.

This is likely, yes. Assuming they would've survived financially through their C&C3.

PussyPus wrote:
6. Zipper Interactive may have been risen by westwood themselves (Zipper was closed in 2012).

How are they related to Westwood in any way?

PussyPus wrote:
7. C&C series would have been invading most of RTS games between 2002 and present.

Most likely C&C would've been a succesful series roughly as long as it was with EA (so roughly until C&C3, or arguably RA3). Other studios like Blizzard would've still released much more succesful games than Westwood could.

Westwood basically made two great games: Tiberian Dawn and Red Alert 1. Tiberian Sun was decent, but it didn't meet expectations. And after TS they never really managed to make anything truly succesful. Westwood most likely couldn't have done a significantly better job than EA did.

Now, WW got bought (or sold themselves?) while they were in the middle of developing TS, which impacted the game. Maybe TS would've ended up being better if EA didn't impact the development process, maybe not.

Looking at it today, even TD and RA1 have a lot of flaws, but the RTS genre was still very young so they didn't really have decent competitors. Once there were competitors, WW couldn't keep up.
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Mechacaseal
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EA did pretty good with Red Alert 2. That game deels insanely polished in comparison to tiberian sun. shame they didnt make more games for it. generals felt dated in comparison. same with tiberium wars.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mechacaseal wrote:
EA did pretty good with Red Alert 2. That game deels insanely polished in comparison to tiberian sun. shame they didnt make more games for it. generals felt dated in comparison. same with tiberium wars.

It was the obsession with 3D that killed it, it's the same with 3D movies now, some people get excited about it because it's the newest thing, not because it is better.

Some corpie decided that staying 2.5D would make them feel like the uncool kid no one wants to play with. Fear rather than need drove it, as far as I can tell.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^Rampastein wrote:
PussyPus wrote:
1. The 3rd installments of tiberium and red alert would have been better than those TW & RA3.

Westwood* already failed with Tiberian Sun. While TS was a good game, it wasn't anywhere near as great as it could've (and should've) been; it didn't meet fans' expectations. Tiberium Wars actually had pretty nice gameplay, arguably better than any Westwood C&C and any game made by the ex-WW staff at Petroglyph. So it's likely that a Westwood C&C3 would've had a better story (actually following Firestorm's ending) than EA's C&C3, but that would've likely come at the expense of worse gameplay, making the game not really better than TW.

* By Westwood I mean the original Westwood team that was responsible for TD, RA1 and TS. RA2 was made by a different team, and is noticeably more polished than TS.

It is hard to say whether the original team would've actually made a Red Alert 3 (or even 2) at all, considering it wouldn't have fit their existing story-line.

PussyPus wrote:
3. Renegade series might have been continuing.

I think it would've been unlikely. Renegade didn't really do well compared to the rest of the C&C series, or compared to other FPS games.

PussyPus wrote:
4. The 4th installment of the tiberium might have better features and not like C&C4.

This is likely, yes. Assuming they would've survived financially through their C&C3.

PussyPus wrote:
6. Zipper Interactive may have been risen by westwood themselves (Zipper was closed in 2012).

How are they related to Westwood in any way?

PussyPus wrote:
7. C&C series would have been invading most of RTS games between 2002 and present.

Most likely C&C would've been a succesful series roughly as long as it was with EA (so roughly until C&C3, or arguably RA3). Other studios like Blizzard would've still released much more succesful games than Westwood could.

Westwood basically made two great games: Tiberian Dawn and Red Alert 1. Tiberian Sun was decent, but it didn't meet expectations. And after TS they never really managed to make anything truly succesful. Westwood most likely couldn't have done a significantly better job than EA did.

Now, WW got bought (or sold themselves?) while they were in the middle of developing TS, which impacted the game. Maybe TS would've ended up being better if EA didn't impact the development process, maybe not.

Looking at it today, even TD and RA1 have a lot of flaws, but the RTS genre was still very young so they didn't really have decent competitors. Once there were competitors, WW couldn't keep up.


If EA never bought Westwood everything would have been better.

Zipper was really related to both Westwood and EA, Zipper's old video game RECOIL was playable online using Westwood OnLine, i already have a copy of the original game disc, sadly when i had this game in 2008 i wanted to play it online but can't because WOL is dead, but i requested for my old youtube mate voodooshock to request for a server in tunngle and it finally work, but still i don't see any player, because the game's fame was low although it was successful, the game was very famous since 1998 to 2005.

C&C series is now very underrated.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^Rampastein wrote:


Looking at it today, even TD and RA1 have a lot of flaws, but the RTS genre was still very young so they didn't really have decent competitors. Once there were competitors, WW couldn't keep up.



I'd say WarCraft 1 and 2 were more than decent competitors to C&C and RA. There were also games that were technically advanced for the time like Total Annihilation released shortly after RA with unique game play.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^Rampastein wrote:
Now, WW got bought (or sold themselves?)

Got bought. See the situation at Virgin Interactive at the time.

^Rampastein wrote:
Maybe TS would've ended up being better if EA didn't impact the development process, maybe not.

Explain how EA impacted the development process within the same year where Tiberian Sun got delayed at least twice #Tongue

PussyPus wrote:
Zipper was really related to both Westwood and EA, Zipper's old video game RECOIL

That's just one game. You know what else Zipper was doing at the same time? MechWarrior 3 for MicroProse (most likely in the same engine). And after that? Crimson Skies for Microsoft, and SOCOM games, MAG and Unit 13 for Sony. Until they were bought by Sony in January 2006, they were mostly one-off contractual developers.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plokite_Wolf wrote:
^Rampastein wrote:
Now, WW got bought (or sold themselves?)

Got bought. See the situation at Virgin Interactive at the time.

^Rampastein wrote:
Maybe TS would've ended up being better if EA didn't impact the development process, maybe not.

Explain how EA impacted the development process within the same year where Tiberian Sun got delayed at least twice #Tongue

PussyPus wrote:
Zipper was really related to both Westwood and EA, Zipper's old video game RECOIL

That's just one game. You know what else Zipper was doing at the same time? MechWarrior 3 for MicroProse (most likely in the same engine). And after that? Crimson Skies for Microsoft, and SOCOM games, MAG and Unit 13 for Sony. Until they were bought by Sony in January 2006, they were mostly one-off contractual developers.


calm down sir we dont need to know this much nerdhistory.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plokite_Wolf wrote:
^Rampastein wrote:
Maybe TS would've ended up being better if EA didn't impact the development process, maybe not.

Explain how EA impacted the development process within the same year where Tiberian Sun got delayed at least twice #Tongue

I'm not sure, hence why I said "maybe" #Tongue Considering EA's track record of destroying companies that they've bought, I wouldn't be surprised if EA tried to enforce their own company culture or impose new demands to the Westwood staff that negatively impacted the development of TS either directly or indirectly (through loss of motivation or something else). Some sources, like the video in the first post of this topic, also claim that some WW employees left after the buyout by EA. If you know better, feel free to correct.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^Rampastein wrote:
Plokite_Wolf wrote:
^Rampastein wrote:
Maybe TS would've ended up being better if EA didn't impact the development process, maybe not.

Explain how EA impacted the development process within the same year where Tiberian Sun got delayed at least twice #Tongue

I'm not sure, hence why I said "maybe" #Tongue Considering EA's track record of destroying companies that they've bought, I wouldn't be surprised if EA tried to enforce their own company culture or impose new demands to the Westwood staff that negatively impacted the development of TS either directly or indirectly (through loss of motivation or something else). Some sources, like the video in the first post of this topic, also claim that some WW employees left after the buyout by EA. If you know better, feel free to correct.

Things went badly for TS because WW was tripping over their own engine and loved making more than one game at the same time (in this case, Lands of Lore 3 and Renegade). Look at the redux video, and you'll notice that the bit where "some WW staff left" was omitted, as it sounds made up by the WW-worshipping army on the Internet without grounds, and even if it did happen, WW had more than enough people to go on.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plokite_Wolf wrote:
^Rampastein wrote:
Plokite_Wolf wrote:
^Rampastein wrote:
Maybe TS would've ended up being better if EA didn't impact the development process, maybe not.

Explain how EA impacted the development process within the same year where Tiberian Sun got delayed at least twice #Tongue

I'm not sure, hence why I said "maybe" #Tongue Considering EA's track record of destroying companies that they've bought, I wouldn't be surprised if EA tried to enforce their own company culture or impose new demands to the Westwood staff that negatively impacted the development of TS either directly or indirectly (through loss of motivation or something else). Some sources, like the video in the first post of this topic, also claim that some WW employees left after the buyout by EA. If you know better, feel free to correct.

Things went badly for TS because WW was tripping over their own engine and loved making more than one game at the same time (in this case, Lands of Lore 3 and Renegade). Look at the redux video, and you'll notice that the bit where "some WW staff left" was omitted, as it sounds made up by the WW-worshipping army on the Internet without grounds, and even if it did happen, WW had more than enough people to go on.


i wanna know who was the one to balance tiberian sun firestorm expansion. they literally came in off the street it seems and made radical and horrible decisions.

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