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"shield" on buildings using pip slot
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silverwind
Cyborg Firebomber


Joined: 11 Jun 2016

PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:24 pm    Post subject:  "shield" on buildings using pip slot
Subject description: Not sure if this hasn't been done before.
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I haven't played many recent mods, so I'm not sure if this hasn't been done before.



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Mig Eater
Defense Minister


Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: Eindhoven

PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I presume it's done with dummy occupants that need to be killed before the building will take damage?

Interesting but what you've done is just add a one time health boost. Unless you plan to make the "shields" regenerate by feeding the building infantry?

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silverwind
Cyborg Firebomber


Joined: 11 Jun 2016

PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That is exactly how it was done. I don't think it's possible to 'regenerate' occupants, though, so indeed it only serves as an extra health boost with different resistances.

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G-E
Defense Minister


Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

So how is this mechanic better than purely strength? If the occupants don't regenerate your max health will be lower after repairing, and I doubt anyone likes that.

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silverwind
Cyborg Firebomber


Joined: 11 Jun 2016

PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Not better, per say. It's mostly a visual thing.

There is a key difference, though. The shield, while active, takes damage using a different armor than what the building uses.

In any case, like I said, this is mostly a visual effect.

I do have an alternative visual implementation in mind, though. I never played Tiberian Sun (the game never ran on any of the PCs I used), but I remember seeing some of its building SHPs with 2-level structural damage, while with RA2, it's just undamaged and damaged. Do TS-style building damage graphics work in YR?

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

2 damage stages don't work in TS as well, even though many SHPs have a 3rd frame in the SHP, it's never used.
That logic existed only in TD (not sure if RA1 as well)

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MasterHaosis
General


Joined: 01 Nov 2010
Location: Serbia

PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Mig Eater wrote:
I presume it's done with dummy occupants that need to be killed before the building will take damage?

Wait, how? How occupants need to be killed before building can take damage at all?

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Virgil
Stealth Laser Trooper


Joined: 22 Jul 2018

PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

MasterHaosis wrote:
Mig Eater wrote:
I presume it's done with dummy occupants that need to be killed before the building will take damage?

Wait, how? How occupants need to be killed before building can take damage at all?


With Ares, UC.PassThrough=100% will make occupants take all the damage instead of the building.

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cxtian39
Commander


Joined: 11 Feb 2016

PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You can give the building an absorb weapon to absorb dummies generated somewhere else so that it can "regenerate"

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silverwind
Cyborg Firebomber


Joined: 11 Jun 2016

PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

cxtian39 wrote:
You can give the building an absorb weapon to absorb dummies generated somewhere else so that it can "regenerate"


Interesting. Can an absorb weapon be prompted to fire on allied units automatically? If so, it could be used with a Unit Delivery superweapon to automatically recharge a shield at regular intervals.

Of course, we must also see what effects Insignificant=yes has on this whole thing, since such units will have to be unapparent to the player.

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Virgil
Stealth Laser Trooper


Joined: 22 Jul 2018

PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

silverwind wrote:
cxtian39 wrote:
You can give the building an absorb weapon to absorb dummies generated somewhere else so that it can "regenerate"


Interesting. Can an absorb weapon be prompted to fire on allied units automatically? If so, it could be used with a Unit Delivery superweapon to automatically recharge a shield at regular intervals.

Of course, we must also see what effects Insignificant=yes has on this whole thing, since such units will have to be unapparent to the player.


AttackFriendlies=yes should do the job. I'm not sure if AttackCursorOnFriendlies will be needed. Insignificant=yes will make the dummy not considered as a threat and thus not regenerate the shield, so I suggest using EVA.Lost=dummy to prevent EVA report.

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cxtian39
Commander


Joined: 11 Feb 2016

PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Deliver.Owner=civilian and CivilianEnemy=yes

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silverwind
Cyborg Firebomber


Joined: 11 Jun 2016

PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The problem will be that without Insignificant=yes, the units will prevent a side from being defeated, while they themselves can't be seen or targeted.

I'm gonna test if Insignificant=yes prevents units from regenerating the shield.

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silverwind
Cyborg Firebomber


Joined: 11 Jun 2016

PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Insignificant does not prevent a unit from generating the shield. However, it seems Abductor logic doesn't work with Occupiers - as opposed to Passengers, which I just realized are two different things.

In my testing, A building is able to have BOTH of them (Occupiers and Passengers) in it together, using two different pools (and displaying the Pips for both of them).

I'm not done with this yet.

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4StarGeneral
General


Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Location: Limbo

PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Use DontScore=yes instead. I was going to suggest the same method, with an auto-firing UnitDelivery SW, but I've had nothing but problems trying to get a building to auto-abduct a civilian with CivilianEnemy=yes, so hopefully you have better luck.

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Virgil
Stealth Laser Trooper


Joined: 22 Jul 2018

PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You can use AttachEffect to kill the dummy unit if they dont get absorbed in time.

Unit with Insignificant=yes will not be considered as a threat, and thus wont be automaticlly attacked by your forces (and also AI's), this is the reason that the shield wont regenerate, 'cause there is no threat to deal with. Sad

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cxtian39
Commander


Joined: 11 Feb 2016

PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Fact, CanBeOccupied building can't even fire their own weapon
Maybe end of story now #Tongue

EDIT: try bioreactor, it seems to work differently

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silverwind
Cyborg Firebomber


Joined: 11 Jun 2016

PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Infantry/Units get absorbed into a different pool so they don't work with the Urban Combat logic used for the shield's "kill occupants before damaging building" gimmick. Therefore, Abductor and InfantryAbsorb are no good.

@cxtian39, that explains everything. about the bio reactor, read above.

@4StarGeneral, I tried it without Insignificant first. It seems the building doesn't fire because CanBeOccupied prevents it, as cxtian39 highlighted. Also, Abductor logic uses Passengers, while the shield depended on Occupants to work.

I actually tried getting the shieldguys into the building manually to see if the InfantryAbsorb logic worked with this. Turns out they can enter even before the shield is depleted, and fill up a different pool.

This whole thing explains what the Ares Documentation means when it says, "Due to the way Passengers for buildings was tacked on, it is possible buildings with abducting weapons will not work properly. (Using InfantryAbsorb/UnitAbsorb increases your chances.) These malfunctions are considered out of the scope of the request and will not be considered bugs. The same goes for InfantryTypes. Malfunctions on VehicleTypes and AircraftTypes, on the other hand, should be reported immediately."

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