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All Tile type ID's
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tomsons26lv
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Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Location: Latvia

PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 5:31 pm    Post subject:  All Tile type ID's Reply with quote

Today i investigated the tile IDs for the ORA RA2 mod and for the TS mod.

The way I checked it is pasted the tile speed settings from rules to a map that only is made of one specific tile.Extracted the tile from the game and pasted in the game folder.

Since the CnCNet version can launch directly without menus it meant i can quickly test it.
I edited the speed settings in map file the exe would be loading and checked what happens when i set say ID 0 which is known to be linked to the [Clear] section to 0%(which resulted in MCV blowing up), then changed the ID in the tile file i'm testing with and went though all the IDs the same way from 0 to 15.

Since this is beneficial for everyone not just ORA so i'm posting it here.
Now we finally know what ID is linked to what. Very Happy


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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

very nice and useful info. thanks
I think this is also the way i coded it in TMP Shop.


It's a shame the game has no TerrainType ID for Tiberium/Weeds/Wall for tiles. It would have given mods more freedom to use new movement patterns for units.
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tomsons26lv
Cyborg Artillery


Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Location: Latvia

PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
very nice and useful info. thanks
I think this is also the way i coded it in TMP Shop.


It's a shame the game has no TerrainType ID for Tiberium/Weeds/Wall for tiles. It would have given mods more freedom to use new movement patterns for units.

Well it has a ID for them but i got the impression since 16 and up don't exist as the game crashes with anything else, it could be those ID's are actual names not numbers or maybe hex like(0x##) like FinalSun/FinalAlert represents them.
Could off course be 100 or something absurd like that too. We'll probably never know unless someone from WW tells us or someone reverse engineers the type section in the exe
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4StarGeneral
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Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Location: Constant Flux

PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the info, obviously WW only coded for a 1-bit hex value so only 0-F are the only valid options (0-15). Why such a strict restriction, well that's WW.
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RP
Commander


Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Location: Mapping God Heaven

PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tend to disagree with you, 4StarGeneral.

To some degree, yes, WW added some odd restrictions.
On the other hand, maybe this is by design. Think about it, if you need 8 cars, you don't buy 16 because why not.
I believe Westwood made this kind of decisions for some things, too. If you only have 16 terrain types that are used, why build more code?
You don't add an extra wall to a house if it's not going to be used what so ever.

Stuff like the Whiteboy bug is just shitty code, but I think the same could be said for OverlayTypes.
Westwood had far less than 255 types of Overlay, and nearly all of them require specific code to give them unique behavior (walls with gates slamming onto them, bridges, tiberiums etc.).

So yes, some things were probably done by design. Same like Ares does for certain things.
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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

though 255 = byte or char (8bit)
16 is no data type at all in any programming language that i know. To store this, you still need 1 byte in a file and in any internal data handling routines, since the next smaller data type is boolean which is only 1 bit.

Even from a programmers point of view, a 4 bit data type is bad (e.g. an array of boolean[16]). You still need another 4 empty bits to store this, not to speak of special routines to read/write this.

In the program you also wouldn't restrict yourself when you use Byte while you need only 4 bit. Using Byte is much easier than for example an array Boolean[16].
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CCHyper
Defense Minister


Joined: 07 Apr 2005

PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The data size is left over from RA, where Joe Bostic himself told me they did everything possible to save on memory and file sizes. Don't think too much about trivial things.

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Graion Dilach
Defense Minister


Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Location: Iszkaszentgyörgy, Hungary

PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
*snip*


Low-level programming is actually pretty good for half-byte handling if you treat it as byte, not as bitarray, (not to mention BCD encoding). Just grab it as byte, do an AND with 0FH or F0H (maybe 3CH if you'd favor that), shift result if needed, use however you'd like to.

Every conversion from string to numbers and back does such a masking, so what.

True that it does not have it's own data handler, but it never really needed one at all - the results are 100% predictable compared to words, where endianness comes in.
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TAK02
General


Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: It was Damascus.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://ppmforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=47584
Talk about rude... he was just trying to help.
If that's the welcome we give helping folks, this place will die out sooner rather than later from not having any new members.

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4StarGeneral
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Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Location: Constant Flux

PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

'Helping' and then adding "screw u" for no real reason isn't really helping, for being aggressive as a first/guest post this is the outcome it deserved.

If he wanted to help, he already remade the spreadsheet, why not just make a google sheet and link that so anyone can make a copy and color it any way they want? Like so.
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MasterHaosis
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Joined: 01 Nov 2010
Location: Serbia

PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

4StarGeneral, I think that Banshee removed our posts
EDIT: Oh, it was not Banshee at all. it is in crap forum now in link Tak02 gave https://ppmforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=582427#582427
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TAK02
General


Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: It was Damascus.

PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

4Star, did you even bother reading what he wrote? He said he got lost reading the table due to it being all in one color. By coloring it he made it harder to get lost while attempting to read the value for the water tiles to cliff tiles or something.

As for the "screw u": you call that aggressive? As I explained to MasterHaosis, he was probably just jealous and/or disappointed that no-one brought up the problem and fixed before.
That, and be thankful he didn't launch into a rant how tomson's and other members' eyesight sucks or something in a way only Mechacaseal or Nero could come up with...
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G-E
General


Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I recall the chart is slightly wrong, in that there are id's for dirtroad and paved road, but the WW tiles are a mess and often they are used wrong, or made exceptions for whatever reason.
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TAK02
General


Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: It was Damascus.

PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
As I recall the chart is slightly wrong, in that there are id's for dirtroad and paved road, but the WW tiles are a mess and often they are used wrong, or made exceptions for whatever reason.

You got pics?

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tomsons26lv
Cyborg Artillery


Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Location: Latvia

PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How the game internally resolves a Tile Type to a Land Type.
It has this as a array and there's nothing else.


2019-11-16_20-47-54.png
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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

any chance to change that and replace doubled entries to include Veins, Wall and Tiberium?
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Crimsonum
Seth


Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Location: Fineland

PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would assume there's a reason for the duplicates other than just filling up the array.
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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

for ice maybe, due to the different states it can have (water, cracked, medium, solid)
but the multiple rocks and roads are surely lazyness by WW. Like different dev teams working on different terrain but all having to work with the same list.

IIRC TI uses only one ROCK ID across all its terrain tiles and it has no pathfinding issues or other problems with ignoring the other two ROCK IDs.
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CCHyper
Defense Minister


Joined: 07 Apr 2005

PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That internal list for tile types reflects an enumeration list we don't have any information for. The internal "LandType" is something that has a different use to what the "TileLandType" really is for.

As you said, for example;
1 could be for all ice.
2 could be for ice shores.
3 could be for cracked ice.
4 could be for ice water cliffs.

7 could be cliffs.
8 could be actual rocks.

11 could be dirt roads.
12 could be paved roads.

The internal dev tool that made the terrain would have had the entries that made sense,

We just have no idea unless someone goes through all tiles in the vanilla game and does a list of what each file/filename actually uses.

Perhaps then we can find out what the list really is...

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

with TMP Shop you can scan pretty quick for a certain landtype and list all tmp files using this.

IIRC (long ago when i wrote TMP shop and checked TS), it showed that TS is pretty inconsistent in the usage of the landtype.

\edit
Did a quick scan
none of the TMPs in isosnow.mix use Ice 02 03 or 04, they only use Ice 01

Rock 07 is only used by civ01.sno-civ08.sno, which are civil buildings made as terrain. stupid and useless these
Rock 08 isn't used at all
bld03.sno which is (almost) the same as civ01.sno only differs, that bld03 is using Rock/Cliff 15 and civ01 using Rock07, for the same tiles in the tmp. There's no reason why they should differ at all.
see attached image

ignore the warnings and errors, WW did as well and didn't care about wrong header settings.


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CCHyper
Defense Minister


Joined: 07 Apr 2005

PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Red Alert also uses 16 (0 to 15) available types, but they are assigned to different LandTypes.

I have a theory that these were just that, "slots", and they assigned them to whichever was needed for producing the tiles.

So perhaps they never had real names?

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G-E
General


Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yea I'd assume the redundancy is to add additional logic or division to the tiles, whether it was programmed with such things in the final cut is another matter.

But roads would have dirt roads and paved roads, cliffs would be distinct from rock, growing ice distinct from static/heavy ice etc.
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