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PPM is in need of a RA2 moderator...
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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all, the nazi party was economically center wing and not right wing. There was a heavy interference from the state in the nazi government.

I called you forum nazi, instead of simply nazi, because you keep some complex of superiority against certain group of people, inability to deal with different cultures and ideas and constant classification of people in groups with common behaviour, being unable to distuinguish that each person is different. And I still keep my word after your last reply, specially the quote below that was totally ridiculous:

Quote:
If I was a Kazach, I'd leave this forum immediately right now.


I don't see any problem on being a Kazach, honestly. And Kazachs do not behave like Borat. Borat was an exageration and a completely twisted vision of what could be a Kazach, but it was an interesting movie to see what a heavy shock of cultures can do to a person.

Quote:
Yes, sometimes I'm interested in n00b bashing. Pretty much because I don't have much else to do here by now.


Then, n00b bash elsewhere and not here. I don't like this kind of thing being done at PPM.

Quote:
This is proven by the recent activity that had to be done by Muldrake, because you didn't fix it at start.


If you saw what I did, you would eat your words. Most of the other C&C communities have fallen into a much worse n00b infestation than PPM. Last month I wasn't much active because of my trip. So, I couldn't give the same attention to the forums that I give every month. Of course, Muldrake thought (and I agreed with him) that was necessary to take some measures because the n00b infestation got worse. Every popular community has n00bs, including PPM.

Quote:
DCoder and similar people prevent this from happening.


No. He helped, but he also created some problems with his attitude, which inspired people like you to visit this place for n00b bashing that increased recently and will decrease again. Remember, n00b bashing is a total n00bish attitude.


Quote:
If you want to attract everyone, event people behaving arrogantly right from the start for no reason (that's what you calla n00b) go see Deezire and how it ended.
That is a community where newbies have truly no chance.
If it even can be a community, since it has died, because of this devolution.
I do not want the same to happen to PPM.


You missed some important differences:

-> PPM is being much more updated than Deezire in the last 4 years (or more).
-> Deezire was infested with lame and problematic moderators (I mean, Komataguri? WTF?), who actually scared veteran members as well. Moderators at PPM are carefully selected. PPM's moderation is also a way heavier than most of other known C&C modding community forums.
-> PPM does not use phpNuke and therefore, it didn't get hacked as often as Deezire. Also, when the PPM was hacked, the response was much faster than Deezire's response, truth to be said.
-> PPM has no money system or any system that motivates spams, unlike Deezire forums.
-> PPM has a crap forum where problematic topics and posts goes into and are flushed in few days. Deezire has no such system.


No offense to Deezire. He placed a lot of effort into his site, specially before 2004 and it had a nice community at that time, thanks to his efforts. After he came into a BfME community summit, things over there dropped considerably until it reachs the current state.

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Sir Modsalot
Commander


Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Location: Mixing psilocybin in your drinks.

PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mei Ling wrote:
You gave me more then two chances, Kyler more then two chances, and God knows why Prime is still allowed here.


Don't forget gufu. He's been given more chances than anyone would bother to count. (or so I'd think)

So why did DCoder only get 2 chances and then get his powers removed + ban threat, and yet the people that get rightfully attacked (not talking about the people that DCoder attacked in this case) for what they said are ignored, despite repeat/past offenses, while the people that attacked them get slapped? Is there some sort of double-standard we don't know about?
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m666
Cyborg Commando


Joined: 09 Apr 2005
Location: South Carolina

PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sir Modsalot wrote:
Mei Ling wrote:
You gave me more then two chances, Kyler more then two chances, and God knows why Prime is still allowed here.


Don't forget gufu. He's been given more chances than anyone would bother to count. (or so I'd think)

So why did DCoder only get 2 chances and then get his powers removed + ban threat, and yet the people that get rightfully attacked (not talking about the people that DCoder attacked in this case) for what they said are ignored, despite repeat/past offenses, while the people that attacked them get slapped? Is there some sort of double-standard we don't know about?


QFT.
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Team Black
Defense Minister


Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Location: Georgia, USA Posts: Over 9000

PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, I've never seen gufu flame.. Not even once.
Just putting that out there
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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gufu, Carnotaurus and many others received much more than 2 chances. But again, I'm very selective at moderators and of course, I demand more from them than normal members.

If a forum I'm running has rules, everyone who has any sort of authority badge must be the example. If they aren't any example, why should the rules be followed? So, there is no double standards here. The situation is different. If Carnotaurus was a moderator, he would have been fired years ago.

And Team Black has a good memory. Gufu does not insult people. He spammed in a heavy frequency and reduced it considerably after some warnings.

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CCHyper
Defense Minister


Joined: 07 Apr 2005

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with your there Bansh. they do need to set a example.

Also... The other groups...

Morpher, SMIFFGIG and DvD has not really that active for the Tiberian Sun Editing, though SMIFFGIG does not need to be removed, he is a Tiberian Sun information machine #Tongue

A C&C3 Group needs to be made, i would say JonWil, and possibly Chriz?

Not to go too off topic, but this is someone i planned to tell you about a while ago.

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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jonwil refused a while ago. But I'll work on that after RA2 is done.

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Sir Modsalot
Commander


Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Location: Mixing psilocybin in your drinks.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee wrote:
Gufu, Carnotaurus and many others received much more than 2 chances.


But why? Is there any real reason?
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Kiith-Sa
Rocket Cyborg


Joined: 26 Oct 2004

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DCoder didn't inspire me to visit this place.
Nor was it for n00b bashing.
Blame Google for that.
I don't remember having a complex of superiority against any of the people here, although I do have a complex of hatred against people like Prime.
I also don't remember dividing people of this forum into groups or prejudicing them according to any such nonsense.
I remember talking against it, though.

If I bash a n00b (which I haven't done many times), I specify the point (perhaps except one explosion seeing certain Prime's post).
A definition of n00b for me is, again, a person who starts being arrogant against people straight without any reason. Which does not mean you can class n00b as a group, either.

I saw what you didn't in the first place.
I do appreciate this site being more clean than other ones, that began to slowly change during the last few months, though.
Also, Deezire was, at least RA2-wise, more active forum even in 2005.

Gufu did improve during the last time, true.
But many didn't.

About nazi being not economically right:
exactly my point. I thought I was called nazi due to my right economical orientation, which is often confused with nationalistic right.
However, I take calling me a forum nazi based on nazi-like behavior of discriminating people dividing them into groups as an insult, since I hate exactly such behavior. I'm not continuing with this since it would turn into more flaming.
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gufu
Defense Minister


Joined: 22 Dec 2004
Location: Tiberium Research Center N27

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sir Modsalot wrote:
Banshee wrote:
Gufu, Carnotaurus and many others received much more than 2 chances.


But why? Is there any real reason?


The basic ability of going nowhere but up? If thats enough to answer your quiestion.
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DaFool
Defense Minister


Joined: 07 Nov 2006

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps there should be some competition/show of skill to determine the moddie...
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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiith-Sa wrote:
DCoder didn't inspire me to visit this place.

Nor was it for n00b bashing.
Blame Google for that.


Certainly not inspired you visit this place in the first time, but he might have helped to inspire you to bash n00bs, which was what I meant.


Kith-Sa wrote:
I don't remember having a complex of superiority against any of the people here, although I do have a complex of hatred against people like Prime.
I also don't remember dividing people of this forum into groups or prejudicing them according to any such nonsense
I remember talking against it, though.

If I bash a n00b (which I haven't done many times), I specify the point (perhaps except one explosion seeing certain Prime's post).
A definition of n00b for me is, again, a person who starts being arrogant against people straight without any reason. Which does not mean you can class n00b as a group, either.

About nazi being not economically right:
exactly my point. I thought I was called nazi due to my right economical orientation, which is often confused with nationalistic right.
However, I take calling me a forum nazi based on nazi-like behavior of discriminating people dividing them into groups as an insult, since I hate exactly such behavior. I'm not continuing with this since it would turn into more flaming.


Fair enough. I've overreacted. Sorry.


Quote:
I do appreciate this site being more clean than other ones, that began to slowly change during the last few months, though.


Yea, I started to get totally busy with the symposium, trip, university and a lot of random things. I still managed to keep the site quite active during this time. But I'm already acting to reduce the n00bism levels here, specially from certain veterans...



Quote:
A definition of n00b for me is, again, a person who starts being arrogant against people straight without any reason.


Your definition is incorrect. Here's a more acurate one:

Quote:
A definition of n00b for me is, again, a person who starts being arrogant, disrespecting other people of the forums.



Remember, if you want to be respected, you need to respect the others.

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Sir Modsalot
Commander


Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Location: Mixing psilocybin in your drinks.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gufu wrote:
The basic ability of going nowhere but up? If thats enough to answer your quiestion.


Doesn't seem like it. As was said before, some attitudes improved and in that case I see why, but others not, yet they still get to stay while they don't improve. The latter is what I want explained.
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DeathRay2K
Commander


Joined: 01 Sep 2002
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, isn't this a nice little flamewar. I hope you find a good mod, Banshee, as clearly there are a few disorderly people who need to be straightened out... Wink
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Styledatol
Flamethrower


Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Judeau wrote:
I disagree with removing Dcoder from the moderating position.

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Kiith-Sa
Rocket Cyborg


Joined: 26 Oct 2004

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No problem.

I hope for improvement, then.
If you're overworked you might consider
allowing Moldrake to do most of the site/forum keeping job,
if that haven't happened already.

On topic:
I would support Clazzy,Icy,pd, TX ,Tyler Adams,Team Black.
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Team Black
Defense Minister


Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Location: Georgia, USA Posts: Over 9000

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
you might consider
allowing Moldrake to do most of the site/forum keeping job,

I think this deserves a WTF.
Both Banshee and Muldrake have put a ton of effort into this site, and you know that.
Stop pretending like you know what you're talking about, and show respect for the people who do.
kthxbye
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VK
Pyro Sniper


Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Location: in GAMEMD.EXE

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Banshee position.
Also DCoder is moderator on RenProj forums. Why he should moderate here too?
Moderators of common forums should be changed sometimes IMO.
So if DCoder was moderating some time (at least during two years) , now he should open the way for another people. Why not?
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Stygs
Cyborg Cannon


Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So your saying Dcoder shouldn't be a moderator because he allready is a mod on a different forum?

What's next, removing Banshee from PPM beause he is allready a admin at Revora? o.O

From all arguments in this discussion, this is probaply the most silly....
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Dubzac
Commander


Joined: 21 May 2004
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i *could* do the job but my spelling ain't too good and i have big issuses with some moderaters form my past but i have better than average coding experience. since 1998 have been coding games in general.

--bonuses i can give you----
ra2 and yr is simply too easy to do.
The problem is i'm not good at explaining how it works but i do know what the code they talk about is if you know what i mean.
i will get better though .
By the seems of things most people here have not coded for ages before joining ppm i like i have .

i am a good moderator if you don't know check out my four yahoo.com groups are totally spam free and i have been managing them for 4 years and online when most people are sleeping
note banshee i I'm the only one on the 13+ hours dateline meaning in my country I'm 1 day and 2 hours ahead of the world.
Great for toughs night time moderation business and if you don't know I'm online here like 5 times a day even at work.

C'mon dude this is like the sixth time i have applied and proven my self here at ppm so many time over as a good and honest moderator with no bias opinions of members. I'm perfect for this job.
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Dupl3xxx
Commander


Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Location: somewhere south of the north pole

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can do it, but my grammar isn't perfect Rolling Eyes

I cann't remember being rude to any n00bs, but I have been strickt. I can do voxels, and I have avrage ++ skils in modding RA2 YR. But I am no elite, I admit. I am very active at the forums, and is never ofline more than one week at maks.

I also use 90% of my free time doing something that is conected to RA2 YR somehow.

About DCoder: I think he has supreme knowlegde about YR, but is is rude, sometimes even "evil"

If Icy changes his mind, I think he would be a great mod.

Other than that, may the best suited member be a mod be the one!

EDIT: typo Rolling Eyes
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DonutArnold
General


Joined: 18 Jan 2005
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:38 am    Post subject: Re: PPM is in need of a RA2 moderator... Reply with quote

I would like to be a volunteer for this job/task too.

Quote:
-> Has a good RA2 modding knowledge.


I do know how to mod RA2, but I'm not an elite. And I'm making a huge TC for YR and I do know how to make voxels, SHPs, INI editing and etc.

Quote:
-> Is active and is interesting on helping the forums to be a better place.


I'm a very active forum member, although I don't make lots of posts a day, but I'm here almost everyday. I like to make the forums a better place for everyone and I don't see a reason why I shouldn't...

Quote:
-> Has enough maturity to act nice with those who need help and to stop crap from being posted in the RA2 editing forums without being arrogant and not promoting any kind of n00b bashing.


I have enough brains to not to act like an idiot and I've always been kind for those people who really needs help with their modding problems and etc. I rarely do n00b bash even if the n00b is lacking brains and IQ, I try not to bash them. And I'll try my best to extinguish flame and spam fests.

Quote:
-> Has a fluent english, making use of a proper punctuation and grammar.


My English isn't perfect, but I think it's enough good for explaining stuff and etc.

If you choose me I try not disappoint you because I'll do my best to be a great RA2 forum moderator.


And I agree with Dupl3xxx about Icy's being the new mod because I'm sure that IcySon has a better RA2 modding knowledge than I do...

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Oshog
General


Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Go Donut!

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Team Black
Defense Minister


Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Location: Georgia, USA Posts: Over 9000

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, Dounut would be a pretty good RA2 moderator I think..
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OmegaBolt
President


Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Location: York, England

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For all my post is worth around here, I have to agree with Banshee. Moderators have to set an example and since DC wasn't really doing that... mainly just being arrogant then why shouldn't he be removed? A position of authority doesn't exist to make someone feel more important, they are there to keep order etc.

I think if PPM wants to remain an upstanding community then it needs to be strict about these things... if people are allowed to flame whenever then the likes of EA won't be mentioning it again. Razz Well you get the idea.

If the social structure of PPM collapses with flaming then it won't get any inside information (as people like EA will find the place unworthy... or uncaring of the franchise), reducing it's authority as a C&C fansite and then people will find a better place, making the social structure collapse further. It's a circle of epic defeat.
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BrianPrime
Shrapnel Sniper


Joined: 26 Jul 2007

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vote Dupl3xxx 2007! I like that guy, he's pretty reasonable. He needs to be more serious in his campaign! Razz
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Lt Albrecht
Defense Minister


Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Location: Hampshire, England. Creating RA2: Moscow's vengeance

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1) I'm not too bad, I can answer most simple questions

2) I appear, I flick through the new posts and read anything that interests me (in fact it's why I'm here!) or concerns me; I post, apologise to those I have offended then disappear again.

3) I'm quite mature for my age, and I can handle people with bad english (On my old forum there was a guy called "real WW2 feeling" who couldn't speak English to save his life, but I managed to reply coherently.

4) I'm English!!!! I have spoken this language for 13 years (and lived 2 before that).

AND I am a n00b so if I'm sarcastic I'm not a hypocrite.
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Renegade
Cyborg Artillery


Joined: 21 May 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VK wrote:
I agree with Banshee position.
Also DCoder is moderator on RenProj forums. Why he should moderate here too?

I totally, 100%, agree with VK. Seriously. Obviously, the use of forming a community is to not help each other, and to not interlink the various sites. Sharing the experienced you gained on one site for the benefit of the community is an insanity that should be forbidden!
And on that basis, I demand Banshee steps down from his positions at Revora and PPM, on the basis that he still has moderating powers at my forum! Twisted Evil


Yes, that was irony. A lot of it.

VK wrote:
Moderators of common forums should be changed sometimes IMO.
So if DCoder was moderating some time (at least during two years) , now he should open the way for another people. Why not?

Because it's totally stupid to exchange experienced people for new ones just because. It'd be like regularly firing policemen because they become too experienced. Nothing against fresh blood - the more enthusiastic people are about their work, the better. But regularly firing experienced workers just because they gained "enough" experience is an incredibly stupid idea.

Banshee wrote:
You missed some important differences:

[...]
-> Deezire was infested with lame and problematic moderators (I mean, Komataguri? WTF?), who actually scared veteran members as well. [...]

And you're missing an important difference as well...DeeZire's moderators, as lame and problematic as they are, never even visited the RA2YR forums in its prime times. They only showed up every once in a while when there was no problem.

You can hardly compare a forum that gets infested by n00bs because no one has the power to stop them with a forum where the people who do stop them get publically reprimanded and fired for it.

The fact that DeeZire has a worse n00b-problem than PPM does does not change the fact that PPM has a n00b-problem as well. I understand that you tend to be "nicer" towards newcomers, no matter n00b or newb, and that is obviously your right. But it's not smart to piss off those knowledgable by preferring the idiots and troublemakers over those who have an interest in stopping them. Because, as DeeZire is a prime example of, once the knowledgable people are gone, there's nobody left to help the newbs. That gives them no reason to stay, and the only thing left are the n00bs.

Banshee wrote:
Sorry, but unlike you, I don't want an army of arrogant members at PPM forums, inspired on his attitudes, which unfortunately exists and many of them already posted in this topic, including by offering moderator services.

So, basically, you'd rather have an army of actually arrogant, inexperienced posters than an army of supposedly arrogant, experienced ones?

Has it ever occurred to you that, just maybe, the problem might not be the arrogance of those who want to help, but of those who demand help?

Banshee wrote:
There are cases where people tried to make questions by using the google translator, because the person had no idea of how to write in english and there is no C&C modding community in his language.

I'll take that as an example for the whole paragraph, because it stood out to me: What prevents people from mentioning that disadvantage in a post?

Quote:
Como eu mudo os danos da arma do tanque de prisma?

Since it's a simple sentence, I assume that translated correctly - but since I'm not sure, is it so hard to add...

Quote:
Como eu mudo os danos da arma do tanque de prisma?

Eu sou pesaroso se este borne olhar estranho, mas eu não falo o português e não traduzi este com os peixes de Babel.

Sure, it may look weird as well (if it was wrongly translated), but at least there's an indicator why it looks weird.

My point is, how can you blame DCoder for being annoyed by a badly written post, if there is no indication whatsoever that the post was written that way because of anything else but laziness? He doesn't have magical mental powers that tell him "Oh, that user is Korean and has never seen a Latin charset in his life before" - all he sees is the post. And if that's a mess of l33t5p34k and grammatical errors for no apparent reason, he has a pretty good basis to assume the poster just couldn't be arsed to proofread.

Especially if you use an automatic translator, it takes less than ten seconds to add "I'm sorry, I'm German and don't speak English very well.".

As said, I don't want to ignore the rest of the paragraph, but your other arguments were similar...cultural background? I doubt there's a culture on this planet that sees it as a good thing to be unintelligible and rude towards the people you expect help from.

Like I said before, I, too, found his remarks a little harsh, and I probably would've poked him as well had it happened on RenProj. But you are arguing like he's attacking and tearing apart anyone and everyone, regardless of reason or provocation - and I just know for a fact that that's not true. He just expects the poster to show a basic level of politeness and intelligence, and that he actually tried to solve the problem on his own before bothering others. If you expect others to help you, it is in your interest that they understand what you posted. To not even do a basic spelling and punctuation check when you expect these people to invest time and work to help you just shows that you have no respect for the people you're asking for help at all - so why should they show respect back?

I agree that the suicide note was harsh and that he should've been poked about it. But I fiercely disagree with the way DCoder is characterized by you in this discussion. As long as you're polite and respectful, you never have anything to fear from DCoder, and the way you're trying to portray him and people who think like him as arrogant, elitist assholes is just wrong, and, in my opinion, dangerous as well - because it generates the impression that, once you gained enough knowledge to help others rather than to ask for help, you become nothing but an on-demand individual knowledge-database.

People like DCoder have invested a lot of time and work to come to a skill-level high enough to help others. They invest additional time by trying to understand and fix the problems others generated, and DCoder invests an additional amount of time by protecting the innocent from the flak of arrogance.

And you're thanking him and them by basically saying "ztype you, they're new, they're king."? Why do those who keep this community alive have to suffer from those who just burst into it? Why are those who are not even part of your community yet more important to you than those who've been with you for months and years?

All the people in this community want is a certain basic level of respect and politeness. The incredible amount of support for DCoder is evidence of that. If you think it is necessary to remove him because of his latest remarks, fine, there's no way I could stop you. But given the cry of the masses, the shouts for DCoder's reinstatement, you should sit down and think, just for a moment:

What if what you perceive as "arrogance" is not arrogance at all - but the voices of true skill in this community, those who once made this place a pinnacle of modding invention, now almost silenced and choked by the eternal influx of n00bs you protect.

Think about what you want for your community. The elite? Or the scum?
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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
ut it's not smart to piss off those knowledgable by preferring the idiots and troublemakers over those who have an interest in stopping them. Because, as DeeZire is a prime example of, once the knowledgable people are gone, there's nobody left to help the newbs. That gives them no reason to stay, and the only thing left are the n00bs.


I'm fighting the troublemakers, experienced or not. I'm not protecting them. Only today I've already banned 2 of them. You completely missed my point.


Quote:
What prevents people from mentioning that disadvantage in a post?


I agree with you, but we cannot mind control them to make them say they don't know how to speak/write english properly when they are posting.


Quote:
Como eu mudo os danos da arma do tanque de prisma?

Eu sou pesaroso se este borne olhar estranho, mas eu não falo o português e não traduzi este com os peixes de Babel.


First sentence is correct. The underlined part of the second one makes absolutely no sense at all. The "peixes de Babel", I've noticed that it is BabelFish, but Google wasn't supposed to translate that, since it's in capitals and not in the beggining of the sentence, which means that it is some kind of a name.



Quote:
My point is, how can you blame DCoder for being annoyed by a badly written post, if there is no indication whatsoever that the post was written that way because of anything else but laziness? He doesn't have magical mental powers that tell him "Oh, that user is Korean and has never seen a Latin charset in his life before" - all he sees is the post. And if that's a mess of l33t5p34k and grammatical errors for no apparent reason, he has a pretty good basis to assume the poster just couldn't be arsed to proofread.



Laziness, inexperience... Like you, I also wish people were perfect and totally smart or enough careful at certain things, but you know that this is not anyone's reality. You always forget to do things or make mistakes. It is natural. Nobody should be treated like retarded because of that, otherwise everyone would be treated like a retarded almost everytime, which resembles a n00b infested environment, don't you think?


Quote:
But you are arguing like he's attacking and tearing apart anyone and everyone, regardless of reason or provocation


No, you misunderstood me completely. Usually newbies and n00bs... people who are a way too ignorant, or have language problems or... insists on certain mistakes. I'm totally against n00b bashing. Even if the person deserves, you shouldn't fall to their level.

Quote:
And you're thanking him and them by basically saying "ztype you, they're new, they're king."? Why do those who keep this community alive have to suffer from those who just burst into it? Why are those who are not even part of your community yet more important to you than those who've been with you for months and years?


I didn't say 'ztype you' to him, at first. I've mentioned several times in this topic that he was a good moderator and he was helpfull with many people, he was nice with me but I couldn't stand his n00b bashing attitude.

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Oshog
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Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Long post is long.

He broke the rules he was supposed to inforce, he lost his power to lock topics. Boo-hoo. He didn't get banned.

And yes, new cops are better than old ones sometimes. But, cops who brake the law are treated by ANY law system far harshly, no? Why shouldm a moderator make a difference?

Yes, we do not want n00b-infestation. But 'go comming suicide' comming from a moderator? He himself should have asked Banshee to fire him. If a politician says something like that, everyone would want him to step down. Why not do it in here as well?

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blubb
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Joined: 31 Jul 2005

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The biggest problem by this bashing stuff is the anonymity by some persons wich like to act harsh by (probably...) having in real life not the change to say those things to someone in that way or something like that...i do believe in reality most of the posts were never said by the mouth from one to another person cause of the fear to get some punches onto the teeth's....

i think forums are a bit like life - only that people feel stronger and tougher sometimes.

And some people here like in RL just like to provoke with some starements, banshee is right in some cases but not in all, why ban someone cause he did what everyone with a bit bigger ego cause of the "i can't handle my great experience factor" or something similar, its just plain normal and if he likes RA 2 and to be a good moderator and show this time twice on the rules i do believe he will show up and looks for some dialogue with banshee, if not then shit happens and the next one with some fun on RA 2 will simply offer to be a moderator, i just can say, someone with a bit interrest and who haves fun with RA 2 still and likes to talk and exchange informations and stuff about this game then its enough, i wouldn't mind having someone newer like for example ixith on that position, he's still having fun, brings input and is a nice dude and i do believe he can be consequent at all.
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bonzy_buddy
Shrapnel Sniper


Joined: 31 Oct 2006

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never saw as long texts in a CnC related topics.
I personally think n00b bashing is totally wrong and it's far worse for the comunity than n00bism itself. N00b bashing is displaying a total lack of maturity.

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Renegade
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Joined: 21 May 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee wrote:
I'm fighting the troublemakers, experienced or not. I'm not protecting them. Only today I've already banned 2 of them. You completely missed my point.

Oh, I didn't miss your point. I'm just questioning your motivation.


Banshee wrote:
I agree with you, but we cannot mind control them to make them say they don't know how to speak/write english properly when they are posting.

That is correct. But on the other hand, neither does the reader have the mental powers to know they don't speak English, unless they say so.
So if you don't blame the writer for not writing, why do you blame the reader for not reading what's not there?

Banshee wrote:
Quote:
Como eu mudo os danos da arma do tanque de prisma?

Eu sou pesaroso se este borne olhar estranho, mas eu não falo o português e não traduzi este com os peixes de Babel.


First sentence is correct. The underlined part of the second one makes absolutely no sense at all. The "peixes de Babel", I've noticed that it is BabelFish, but Google wasn't supposed to translate that, since it's in capitals and not in the beggining of the sentence, which means that it is some kind of a name.

Has it occurred to you that I might have referenced Babelfish because I actually used it? Wink
(iow, what do I care for Google's algorithm Laughing )

My point was not the accuracy. Quite the opposite - my point was, even though it was translated wrongly, you still understood that I was trying to say "this was translated with Babelfish" - and that's all it takes. I don't blame a poster for bad English if it specifically says "this was translated by Babelfish" in the post. But if there's no such notice, and no other indication given that the poster is hindered in his abilities, why should I not be annoyed by having to decrypt his posts?

Banshee wrote:
Laziness, inexperience... Like you, I also wish people were perfect and totally smart or enough careful at certain things, but you know that this is not anyone's reality. You always forget to do things or make mistakes. It is natural. Nobody should be treated like retarded because of that, otherwise everyone would be treated like a retarded almost everytime, which resembles a n00b infested environment, don't you think?

But if you expect someone else to fix the problems you created, or to invest time and work so you gain knowledge, should you not invest a basic level of care to craft your post?

There is a difference between forgetting things, and just showing no care. Hell, I communicate with BobingAbout daily - he's a native and his spelling his horrible. The point is not the occasional typo or weirdly translated idiom.

The point is, if you want me to help you, I should at least be able to understand what you are saying. To not spellcheck your post to the best of your capabilities is not an oversight in that case - it's downright rude. (And, as D likes to point out, browsers have spell checkers, too.)

Banshee wrote:
Quote:
But you are arguing like he's attacking and tearing apart anyone and everyone, regardless of reason or provocation


No, you misunderstood me completely. Usually newbies and n00bs... people who are a way too ignorant, or have language problems or... insists on certain mistakes. I'm totally against n00b bashing. Even if the person deserves, you shouldn't fall to their level.

Apart from the fact that I don't necessarily see it as "falling to their level", it boils down to the same I said before - if there is no note in the post saying "I don't speak English very well", why do you expect anyone to be capable of magically distinguishing whether it was lack of language skills or lack of respect?

If there is no indication the other person doesn't speak English - why should one assume by default that the other person doesn't?

Banshee wrote:
I didn't say 'ztype you' to him, at first. I've mentioned several times in this topic that he was a good moderator and he was helpfull with many people, he was nice with me but I couldn't stand his n00b bashing attitude.

I was not talking about D specifically. I was talking about this community as a whole. You complain about his attitude, yet at least half the posts on this issue were in support of him, with the majority of the others being applications. Only people like Gosho or Prime, who hate him anyway, are entirely supporting your decision.

If all your regulars like DCoder's work, doesn't that tell you anything? It's not just one man's vendetta. It's a general dislike for the army of n00bs that threatens this stronghold, and your guard is pissed that you beheaded their leader.

The people speaking out against your decision are your regulars. The people you're protecting are people disliked by your regulars. Where is the logic in that?

Even if you don't like the current handling of the situation, the reaction of the people should make you think. You may dislike DCoder's way. The vast majority of your users seems to like it. So either you sit down with D and talk this through, or maybe it's time to give the arrogant elitists their own, separate, invite-only place.

Because, quite honestly, to me it looks like all you're producing with this course of action are a dozen people who'll post "I wish DCoder was still a mod" whenever a n00b shows up - not a more sympathetic community.

As said, I agree that DCoder's response was harsh. But the fact that people still support his work, despite this level of harshness, should make you think about the situation and the state of your community as a whole.

What's more likely - that your entire community is the problem, or that the n00bs are?

Gosho wrote:
Long post is long.

He broke the rules he was supposed to inforce, he lost his power to lock topics. Boo-hoo. He didn't get banned.

And yes, new cops are better than old ones sometimes. But, cops who brake the law are treated by ANY law system far harshly, no? Why shouldm a moderator make a difference?

I am not just talking about DCoder and his job. I am talking about how, even though his post was way out there, people would still rather have him than someone else.

So obviously, despite everything Banshee tries to teach, people here want someone to smite the n00bs quickly and mercilessly. And I refuse to believe that's because everyone here is an arrogant asshole - I'd much rather believe that Banshee just doesn't understand how much his people are annoyed by these posters.

Gosho wrote:
Yes, we do not want n00b-infestation. But 'go comming suicide' comming from a moderator? He himself should have asked Banshee to fire him. If a politician says something like that, everyone would want him to step down. Why not do it in here as well?

Do I have to count the times Bush fucked up?
I agree with you. Sure. Other people would have asked for his removal. But just because somebody is not the perfect choice for a given job does not mean he can't be the best choice there is.

Edited for spelling and style. Twice.
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friday-13th
Commander


Joined: 08 Aug 2005
Location: Toronto Ontario

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I should add a few things here.I am pretty much on Renbegades side though.
Quote:
No, you misunderstood me completely. Usually newbies and n00bs... people who are a way too ignorant, or have language problems or... insists on certain mistakes. I'm totally against n00b bashing. Even if the person deserves, you shouldn't fall to their level.

I only partly agree with this.Yes,we shouldn't noob bash,but noo bashing only happens when WE start getting the flames for help.Yes,we are harsh at times,but as people say,"take criticism into action",yet these guys fail to understand that,and start a flame war.Not only do they insult the members,they practiculy insult the whole community at times.
Obviously,we would say something before the mods would come,but sadly,Dcoder is usually there first,and he is the mod.Yes,DC is hard most of the times,but the bashing usually ends with his comment.IMO,I really don't think it matters that some newbs get bashed,because they usually constantly do it anyways,and end up getting band anyways.

I only go 50/50 with the oppositions.Yes,DCoder is a mod and he shouldn't really bash newbs eitehr way.
But to make it worse,some times,he does insult some of the veteran members around here.Like for example,if i can rember properly,that Top Posters thread made by Yuri07.DCoder bashed him,and it was a pretty pointless and harsh one at that.I was going to say something at that point...But sadly,was to scarred I would get bashed ROFL....

Quote:
And yes, new cops are better than old ones sometimes. But, cops who brake the law are treated by ANY law system far harshly, no? Why shouldm a moderator make a difference?

LOOSE CANONS AND BAD COPS!


Also,people sometimes never change.Look at gufu and carno.They still do it.And are still here.I really doubght that DCoder's moderation would change most of the vets around here.The newbs might be questionable to this.Since they see that a mod can flame,why can't they?
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DaFool
Defense Minister


Joined: 07 Nov 2006

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Perhaps there should be some competition/show of skill to determine the moddie..." I said this before and I don't think anyone responded to it. Most of it looks to revolve aound Dcoder. Anyways a competition looks like the easiest way to settle this without starting an arguement about individuals. I suggest something that is code-intensive and the panel of judges be the current moderators.

Sound like a good idea?
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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Renegade wrote:
So if you don't blame the writer for not writing, why do you blame the reader for not reading what's not there?


Who said that I blame the reader? I don't... I just blame those who reply bashing. You can kindly ask the person to rephrase the question or elaborate it, or even explain what do they really want.


Renegade wrote:
My point was not the accuracy. Quite the opposite - my point was, even though it was translated wrongly, you still understood that I was trying to say "this was translated with Babelfish" - and that's all it takes. I don't blame a poster for bad English if it specifically says "this was translated by Babelfish" in the post. But if there's no such notice, and no other indication given that the poster is hindered in his abilities, why should I not be annoyed by having to decrypt his posts?


Being annoyed is not a problem. The problem is how this annoyance is expressed. Bashing is the worse way to express it. You have the option to ignore the post, if you are very annoyed by it.


Renegade wrote:
But if you expect someone else to fix the problems you created, or to invest time and work so you gain knowledge, should you not invest a basic level of care to craft your post?


You can warn people without bashing them.


Renegade wrote:
Apart from the fact that I don't necessarily see it as "falling to their level", it boils down to the same I said before - if there is no note in the post saying "I don't speak English very well", why do you expect anyone to be capable of magically distinguishing whether it was lack of language skills or lack of respect?

If there is no indication the other person doesn't speak English - why should one assume by default that the other person doesn't?


Why do you need to be agressive with people when they appear to be agressive with you in a forum post? A fight only happens when all sides agree with it.

Renegade wrote:
I was not talking about D specifically. I was talking about this community as a whole. You complain about his attitude, yet at least half the posts on this issue were in support of him, with the majority of the others being applications. Only people like Gosho or Prime, who hate him anyway, are entirely supporting your decision.


I've seen much more people than Gosho and Prime supporting my decision and some of these people are regulars who like DCoder.

Renegade wrote:
If all your regulars like DCoder's work, doesn't that tell you anything? It's not just one man's vendetta. It's a general dislike for the army of n00bs that threatens this stronghold, and your guard is pissed that you beheaded their leader.


Even I liked DCoder's job. He did a great moderation service, but again, many people here disapproved his attitude. Some of them thinks that he is the best man for the RA2 editing forums, regardless of his attitude. I have a different opinion, because, for me, a moderator must be an example. So, it's part of my ethical and moral values. I won't violate my ethical and moral values because of the opinion of some of the regulars here.


DaFool wrote:
"Perhaps there should be some competition/show of skill to determine the moddie..." I said this before and I don't think anyone responded to it. Most of it looks to revolve aound Dcoder. Anyways a competition looks like the easiest way to settle this without starting an arguement about individuals. I suggest something that is code-intensive and the panel of judges be the current moderators.

Sound like a good idea?


Definitelly no. There is no way to make a competition exposes the prerequisites for the moderation skill without creating a big mess in the forums.

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Dupl3xxx
Commander


Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Location: somewhere south of the north pole

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@BrainPrime
Well thank you Very Happy
And what about my campaign?? Make me a banner like "vote Dupl3xxx as moderator"?? Laughing

And about vote, why cann't Banshee make a vote for poeple he think suits the job? Would be cool Razz

And just as a teaser, since I am allready writeing, I am redoing my webpage, with png 32bit! (if it works that is Rolling Eyes)
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blubb
General


Joined: 31 Jul 2005

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yea just ignore me, iam not really counting as some serious person or?
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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't get exactly what you said, blubb. And DCoder just lost his moderator position. He didn't got banned.

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gufu
Defense Minister


Joined: 22 Dec 2004
Location: Tiberium Research Center N27

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yet he doesn't post at all... or does he?
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Muldrake
Supreme Commander


Joined: 19 Sep 2003
Location: England

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have yet to see him post, which is his decision. If he chooses not to come back to post, thats a loss.

Its an option open to everyone. If you don't like how things are here, you don't have to be here.
In the end, this is Banshee's forum, with his rules, his choices. You don't have to agree with them.
I don't always agree with them, but I'm here to moderate this forum, and to keep the peace. I'll do what I'm told, within reason.
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friday-13th
Commander


Joined: 08 Aug 2005
Location: Toronto Ontario

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well,DCoders didn't really post much even with his moderation,may be a few days before we see his posts.

Well,the only thing we can do now it honor him...
how?IN OUR SIGSS #Tongue
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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's his option.

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gufu
Defense Minister


Joined: 22 Dec 2004
Location: Tiberium Research Center N27

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He's probably right now, in the state at which he is afraid to enter the forums, so he won't say anything extra.

Anyway... I don't believe what we have members who can take such a job, without your random guess.

And Blubb... stick to TS please. Ok? I believe you are surelly to be more usefull there.
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friday-13th
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Joined: 08 Aug 2005
Location: Toronto Ontario

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well,better that we don't mention DCoder anymore...
And I doubght he would be in a state like that.DC isn't a 12 year old you know.
And if he does come back....don't do anything stupid.
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Tratos
General


Joined: 01 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee wrote:
Being annoyed is not a problem. The problem is how this annoyance is expressed. Bashing is the worse way to express it. You have the option to ignore the post, if you are very annoyed by it.


But its still going to be there, and its more than likely going to annoy other users too. Warning the noob the moment it pops up at the very least tells it that what its doing is not appreciated, and it should at least attempt to make more effort the next time around, which leads nicely to my next point...


Banshee wrote:
You can warn people without bashing them.


But will they actually listen, because most don't, and that is the stereotypical definition of a noob. Just telling them what they've done wrong generally brings an arrogant, "well i dont care what you think" response and they carry on like it. Publically humiliating them with a good old bashing makes them stop and think, and they'll either sod off elsewhere or will work on their spelling/punctuation/grammar and come back.

Banshee wrote:
Why do you need to be agressive with people when they appear to be agressive with you in a forum post? A fight only happens when all sides agree with it.


Because these people are arrogant and self-centered, and if you give them an inch they will take a mile. Being polite is going to be about as effective with some of the noobs here as slapping them on the wrist. Giving them a proper smack in the jaw is a far more effective way to say "don't do that".

Banshee wrote:
I've seen much more people than Gosho and Prime supporting my decision and some of these people are regulars who like DCoder.


I think you made the wrong decision, i think D overstepped the mark, but i think a private warning in a PM would have been a more appropriate response than public naming and shaming.

Banshee wrote:
Even I liked DCoder's job. He did a great moderation service, but again, many people here disapproved his attitude.


I would imagine the only people with a problem against D would be those who can gain by his 'sacking', i.e the spammers, trollers, and general noobs who now believe they have free reign to be rude and obnoxious without fear of being knocked down a peg by one of the more eloquent, witty and articulate moderators.

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Team Black
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Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Location: Georgia, USA Posts: Over 9000

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

God help us when PPM gets overrun with flaming, arrogant people who can't respect authority.
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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tratos, this situation isn't confortable for me either and it wasn't an easy decision. He was a great moderator and it really sucked to make this kind of thing public, but the fact is... that I need new moderators for the RA2 area. I was unhappy about his n00b bashing attitude. I've tolerated it for a long time and warned him a while ago in a public post to 'please, tone down his kind of response'. That post that I linked wasn't the only post. I must admit that when I originally read his post, I kinda laughed... but then I saw... hell... WTF! This is my forum and he, a moderator, post something like that, even after a warning? Sorry, but it wouldn't be a PM that would sort this. There was another post where he also heavly flamed a n00b... even if the guy deserved, no it's not the way to deal with it.

So, while I didn't want to public humiliate him in any way shape or form, this totally was inevitable and unconfortable, because I had to make an announcement to hire new moderators for the RA2 area. Otherwise nobody would know about the need of a new RA2 moderator. The way this topic progressed made things even worse and certainly DCoder does not deserve this kind of thing.


Quote:
Publically humiliating them with a good old bashing makes them stop and think, and they'll either sod off elsewhere or will work on their spelling/punctuation/grammar and come back.



I know a lot of people feel that way, but I'm still against it. Because by n00b bashing, you are also being arrogant, egoistic and self-centered: in short, you are being a n00b. And by doing that, you are also feeding those who like to stir trouble in the forum (also n00bs). Many people who were usually classed as n00bs could change and improve over the time with proper PMs and warnings, but some others couldn't and persisted with the same mistakes, even being aware of them. Two of them were banned today.

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Mortecha
Commander


Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im affraid you completely went the wrong way about this Banshee. Heh look at the shit storm that has occured because of this. PPM in my eyes is going down hill fast and I will no longer have a part of it. And for all the pple i have had negative words with in the past( you know who you are), the last laugh is on you. Because these pple have caused the majority of the problems that PPM faces now.

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IcySon55
Commander


Joined: 19 Nov 2003
Location: Overworld

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see the drama has yet to end. Also, a vote might end up with me being mod, and I don't want the position. So, no votes!
Maybe I won't even be on the list, if that's the case, you can go nuts with a vote.
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