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Micro$*** buying GitHub
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TAK02
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Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: It was Damascus.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:23 am    Post subject:   Micro$*** buying GitHub
Subject description: What does this mean for our projects like Ares, CnCNet and OpenRA in the long run?
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NOTE: this most likely a good example of paranoia and/or overreacting and/or asking questions the wrong way.
But please try to see things from my perspective: I've always never been short of disappointed in Micro$*** in recent years, especially when it comes to properly supporting the two games that made (most of) the C&C modding community (AFAIK, anyway). Not to mention Micro$***, as a huge company, can screw people over back-2-front up over the wall and reverse with no-one ever doing more than complain a bit and then forget the whole thing. Screwed capitalism and pussyness of today's generation.


Micro$*** is buying GitHub. Yeah, it's technically acquiring, but the result is the same: Micro$*** can do what it wants with everything and everyone there. One corporation did it once (Google and YT), another will do it again.

So the big question is: how will this affect us modders?
Specifically: Ares, CnCNet and OpenRA, to name some projects more or less hosted there off the top of my head.

Micro$*** would then more or less be able to tell us to stop putting our code on the platform, or maybe even use existing code against us by making an update that breaks the DLLs and EXEs we use for Ares and CnCNet.
(I'm not that familiar with programming, but no way am I ever going to believe you when you say it's impossible to disable or disallow certain DLLs and EXEs while literally everything else works fine. No way. For starters: Loser10 could be wired to delete ra2.exe and kill syringe.exe while corrupting OpenRA EXEs.)

So, price-question:
What happens now? What do we do now?
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m7 wrote:
I tend to release things I create so that assets are never lost to hard drive problems, accidental deletion, or me having to pretend to care about rippers taking things from my project when it is done. #Tongue
I once ninja'd MigEater #Tongue
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G-E
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Didn't Google buy a code repository site and rename it, only to shut it down like 2yrs later?

I don't think MS will have such a detrimental effect, they've been getting very linus friendly lately, and they aren't the Gates/Ballmer era imperialists anymore from what I can see.
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TAK02
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
They aren't the Gates/Ballmer era imperialists anymore from what I can see.
€2000 Surface Trash 2 with an i7 8th gen running FA2 much, much slower than an Intel Atom N270 says otherwise #Tongue
Oh, and don't get me started on broken compatibilty for TS & RA2 simply because WinXP is a) no longer supported, b) not freeware or open-source now, even though you'd expect it to be after M-$*** pretty much abandoned it and previous systems completely.
I would've been happy if Loser10 supported dual-install & -booting of that old system.

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G-E
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Win98 supported more ram and didn't have any memory leaks (which I'm sure were deliberate, I used a beta that had none) I would probably still be using it.
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E1 Elite
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@TAK02: You can install XP and Win10 on different HDD and boot it separately on the same system.

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TAK02
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

E1 Elite wrote:
You can install XP and Win10 on different HDD and boot it separately on the same system.

Does this work on the Surface Trash without making the original OS unusable? I remember reading there's some problem with XP and dual-booting it properly with newer systems.
And doesn't this bring the problem of drivers not working?
G-E wrote:
If Win98 supported more ram and didn't have any memory leaks (which I'm sure were deliberate, I used a beta that had none) I would probably still be using it.

They could always get that fixed, then give us the installer. Same with WinXP's bugs (what bugs does it have any way? SP2-only bugs, I mean).

What I mean is, Micro$*** knows compatibilty mode doesn't do $***. The least they could do is re-make the older installers so they're compatible with newer systems.

But that is now off-topic. Please get back to GitHub Smile
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m7 wrote:
I tend to release things I create so that assets are never lost to hard drive problems, accidental deletion, or me having to pretend to care about rippers taking things from my project when it is done. #Tongue
I once ninja'd MigEater #Tongue
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E1 Elite
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't know about Surface on the dual boot but was talking about generic PC.

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G-E
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is actually a more esoteric reason for newer os'es getting slower on old hardware that has to do with time slicing. Older cpus could only process so much data between slices, so it made sense to have rather large slices, but as each new generation of cpu got more instruction efficient and higher speed, the lower granularity actually meant the cpu was wasting time slicing to idle or low usage processes that could have been better spent on the important ones. And it's why it was so easy to freeze or hang older versions of Windows, if one process took an extra 2-3x its share of slices, everything else would have to wait ungodly amounts of time for data or results.... each granularity update meant less hanging, if you noticed.

The downside of decreasing the time slices is that you increase the overhead of switching, but there too cpus and the os itself used tricks to minimize this. When we started going multi-core in earnest, most cores were used little enough that much of the switching overhead and background processes could be moved away from the high demand processes, and thus would lower the impact, even when the dual or quad-core wasn't quite as good as the single it replaced in theory.

When you understand that, the push from MS to shove new versions of Windows down our throats makes a little more sense, they are architected to slice and switch with a target cpu efficiency/capability in mind, anything too fast will be wasting time, anything too slow will get constipated. Of course hardware manufacturers also loved the forced upgrades and constant changes to new driver models that obsoleted entire classes of hardware for no reason.

There is no actual reason why Win7 couldn't have different tier engines for different tier hardware and not slow down older computers so much, or scale properly with newer generation hardware, except that it would hinder additional sales of Windows and all the software/hardware of that generation, which would make their "partners" unhappy as well.
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TAK02
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
There is actually a more esoteric reason for newer os'es getting slower on old hardware that has to do with time slicing.

Is this valid for older OSs running on newer hardware too? That kinda was the whole point of my rant #Tongue
Example: Windows 1.0 on an SSD, GTX 1050, i7 8th gen and 8GB RAM Cool

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Graion Dilach
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Microsoft buying GitHub fits well into their recent strategy towards gaining ground in the open-source world, after the fact that they already bought up Xamarin (also known as the original authors of Mono - the C# Linux implementation - and Xamarin Studio) and the mere existence of the Windows Subsystem for Linux.

If you haven't noticed yet, the whole newest C# architecture (as .NET Core) is on GitHub already, and Xamarin also has official backing on the Linux-C# ecosystem as well. If you'd ask me, I'd say MS only started the work now to get C# into the really serious Java competitor they always wanted it to be, since C# being limited to Windows was never that good for the language to be truly popular.

There are also other new tools being Microsoft but completely OS and hosted on their GH profile entirely, like Visual Studio Code. Even if they decide to retract such huge projects being out in the OS for now, these projects are all in a truly OS compliant license (not MsPL) and forking them on their last known version would still be legal, so reverting the choice at a point would still cause a lot of issues for them anyway.

The fact that LinkedIn also hasn't changed at all after MS bought it also implies to me that we're way past the MS acquisition era where MS bought products just to mess them up, akin to the Skype-WLM merge and then changing protocols just to make sure third-party tools can't connect to it. Sure, the FUD is strong around these turn of events but just looking at how Xamarin went forward after the MS acquisition shows the signs that they are not that bad at this point as they sound like.

Ofcourse, this doesn't matter if you are a retard whose only worthwhile skill is to know nothing and talk trash about things you have no knowledge of. But then again, that's TAK02 for PPM.
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TAK02
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Graion Dilach wrote:
Ofcourse, this doesn't matter if you are a retard whose only worthwhile skill is to know nothing and talk trash about things you have no knowledge of. But then again, that's TAK02 for PPM.
And calling people retards for no good reason while thinking he/she is a saint is Graion Dilach for PPM. Nice to meet you Smile

On-topic: thanks for the insight as for the 'why'. The question of what happens now to the GitHub projects in the future is still in the air.

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4StarGeneral
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TAK02 wrote:
G-E wrote:
There is actually a more esoteric reason for newer os'es getting slower on old hardware that has to do with time slicing.

Is this valid for older OSs running on newer hardware too? That kinda was the whole point of my rant #Tongue
Example: Windows 1.0 on an SSD, GTX 1050, i7 8th gen and 8GB RAM Cool

That's actually has nothing to do with it. The reason Windows 98SE and below can't run on new equipment is the lack of drivers, lack of support for x64 architecture, and generally older slower coding that has had 20+ years more to be where it is now, and that slower coding isn't meant for new hardware.
TL;DR
Windows 1.0 needs drivers for SSD, GTX 1050, i7 8th gen and those 8GB of RAM, but that's not all; Windows 1.0 is incapable of reading more than 1 processor or a 256mb stick, nor is it capable of "new" hardware like Universal Serial Bus, Serial ATA, or even conventional PCI ports.

As for GitHub, there are alternatives, but Microsoft won't be touching anything on GitHub for awhile unless you're one of those projects.
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TAK02
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

4StarGeneral wrote:
Windows 1.0 needs drivers for SSD, GTX 1050, i7 8th gen and those 8GB of RAM, but that's not all; Windows 1.0 is incapable of reading more than 1 processor or a 256mb stick, nor is it capable of "new" hardware like Universal Serial Bus, Serial ATA, or even conventional PCI ports.

Well, I doubt Win1 can run RA2 anyway Very Happy
But yes, I'm aware there'd be system problems with recognizing/using the newer hardware (does WinXP support touchscreens properly?) as well as driver issues. But these should be fixable without too much effort.

Last edited by TAK02 on Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:01 am; edited 1 time in total

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4StarGeneral
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TAK02 wrote:
4StarGeneral wrote:
Windows 1.0 needs drivers for SSD, GTX 1050, i7 8th gen and those 8GB of RAM, but that's not all; Windows 1.0 is incapable of reading more than 1 processor or a 256mb stick, nor is it capable of "new" hardware like Universal Serial Bus, Serial ATA, or even conventional PCI ports.

Well, I doubt Win1 can run RA2 anyway Very Happy
But yes, I'm aware there'd be system problems with recognizing/using the newer hardware (does WinXP support touchscreens properly?) as well as driver issues. But these should be fixable without too much effort.

It would be far easier to recreate Windows 1.04 from scratch than to build drivers for it.
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TAK02
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

4StarGeneral wrote:
TAK02 wrote:
4StarGeneral wrote:
Windows 1.0 needs drivers for SSD, GTX 1050, i7 8th gen and those 8GB of RAM, but that's not all; Windows 1.0 is incapable of reading more than 1 processor or a 256mb stick, nor is it capable of "new" hardware like Universal Serial Bus, Serial ATA, or even conventional PCI ports.

Well, I doubt Win1 can run RA2 anyway Very Happy
But yes, I'm aware there'd be system problems with recognizing/using the newer hardware (does WinXP support touchscreens properly?) as well as driver issues. But these should be fixable without too much effort.

It would be far easier to recreate Windows 1.04 from scratch than to build drivers for it.

You do know I was being sarcastic with the Win1 comment, right? I don't think RA2 will work on it. Maybe 95 #Tongue
But my point: It can't be hard to make drivers for new hardware for older OSs, with the job becoming easier with each newer version.
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m7 wrote:
I tend to release things I create so that assets are never lost to hard drive problems, accidental deletion, or me having to pretend to care about rippers taking things from my project when it is done. #Tongue
I once ninja'd MigEater #Tongue
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4StarGeneral
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TAK02 wrote:
But my point: It can't be hard to make drivers for new hardware for older OSs, with the job becoming easier with each newer version.


Well it took me a week of work to make 2 drivers (Broadcom and something else, probably the scan gun) for a new PoS system and I made the linux OS for it in less time. And that's for linux where I had resources to pull from. If you're talking Win95, there's a lot less documentation on that than Windows 7 or even XP and it's missing things you take for granted with newer windows, like 'plug and play'.
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Banshee
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Windows 95 does support plug and play. It doesn't have FAT32, NTFS and USB support and some newer stuff. Also, it is a 32 bits system only that doesn't handle machines that have more than 256mb of RAM. If it didn't have these limitations, it would be much better than Windows 10.

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TAK02
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee wrote:
Windows 95 does support plug and play. It doesn't have FAT32, NTFS and USB support and some newer stuff. Also, it is a 32 bits system only that doesn't handle machines that have more than 256mb of RAM. If it didn't have these limitations, it would be much better than Windows 10.

Glad to see the Supreme Banshee supporting me #Tongue
Although, I'm not sure if I'd like it more than WinXP, my memory of using 95 or 98 or 2000 are mushy, and I can't for the life of me remember which one it was. Pity I was no more than 7 or so before we got a WinXP PC #Tongue
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m7 wrote:
I tend to release things I create so that assets are never lost to hard drive problems, accidental deletion, or me having to pretend to care about rippers taking things from my project when it is done. #Tongue
I once ninja'd MigEater #Tongue
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Graion Dilach
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plug'n'play debuted in Win95 OSR2, indeed. That was closer to Win98 than the original Win95 though in most of the ways.

Still, the claim of providing drivers to older OS being easy is ludicrous. Unevolved operating systems pose a lot of issues with security, and every driver has dependencies within the kernel. It could very well be that the OS is just unable to support the necessary feature required for the binary version of the driver to run and lacks the necessary SDK requirements (simple example: some Windows drivers already use .NET) to be able to compile on the system in a self-compilable way.

The reason why Win9X systems were so frequent at BSOD was because the kernel was absolutely unprepared for any errors in the drivers/driver-application interaction. Nowadays, if a driver fails, the current Windowses are able to kill the driver and restart it if necessary, preventing the OS to go down with it. That's for example a security feature, but it made a lot of requirements for the drivers, like no driver can assume complete control of the system (something DOS/Win9x drivers were relied on, for starters).

4SG: From what I could find, that JKSM is gone because the guy deleted his own GH account - https://gbatemp.net/threads/release-jks-savemanager-homebrew-cia-save-manager.413143/page-172#post-7966716 - and in such cases, all the repositories are going down with the account as well. In such cases, GH creates a new network anyway - https://github.com/Shadowtrance/JKSM/network/members.
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TAK02
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Graion Dilach wrote:
Nowadays, if a driver fails, the current Windowses are able to kill the driver and restart it if necessary, preventing the OS to go down with it.
ROFL! Laughing LMAO! ROFLMAO!!!
Do you have any idea how many times Loser10 REALLY crashes when a driver fails? I can tell you it crashed VERY frequently because the GTX 1050 diconnected at 'inoppurtine' times / unexpected moments. I swear, these new devices and systems are hyper-sensitive, and out-right dumb to boot.

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4StarGeneral
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Graion Dilach wrote:
4SG: From what I could find, that JKSM is gone because the guy deleted his own GH account - https://gbatemp.net/threads/release-jks-savemanager-homebrew-cia-save-manager.413143/page-172#post-7966716 - and in such cases, all the repositories are going down with the account as well. In such cases, GH creates a new network anyway - https://github.com/Shadowtrance/JKSM/network/members.


Ah well I assumed it was gone due to the nature of it and the fact the account is still there but all his distros are gone that his account was wiped; Either way I just meant it as an example and I'm sure M$ would love to be able to kill certain projects they may know about that are more competition than illegal.
OpenRA and stuff don't have to worry about it, even if EA was included in the deal, no one cares about ancient games except Blizzard.

TAK02 wrote:
ROFL! Laughing LMAO! ROFLMAO!!!
Do you have any idea how many times Loser10 REALLY crashes when a driver fails? I can tell you it crashed VERY frequently because the GTX 1050 diconnected at 'inoppurtine' times / unexpected moments. I swear, these new devices and systems are hyper-sensitive, and out-right dumb to boot.

FYI, your oh-so-holy Windows 7 also has about the same security/error reporting and also will crash because of drivers, not to mention for your example, graphics cards are notorious for bugs and I believe are Kernel-based drivers where if it crashes there's no recovering unless windows is allowed to swap to an onboard gpu. I even had one get bricked because of a bad driver pushed onto it from AMD. The fact is, despite what people think of it, Windows 10 definitely crashes far less than previous versions of windows and hopefully they keep improving on that.

That said, Microsoft doesn't generally ruin things like EA does when they acquire new things.
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Graion Dilach
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TAK02 wrote:
Graion Dilach wrote:
Nowadays, if a driver fails, the current Windowses are able to kill the driver and restart it if necessary, preventing the OS to go down with it.
ROFL! Laughing LMAO! ROFLMAO!!!
Do you have any idea how many times Loser10 REALLY crashes when a driver fails? I can tell you it crashed VERY frequently because the GTX 1050 diconnected at 'inoppurtine' times / unexpected moments. I swear, these new devices and systems are hyper-sensitive, and out-right dumb to boot.


Star Trek Online literally crashed my Intel HD 2000 driver every time on startup - Win10 restarted the driver and the game even had detection that it crashed during a particular GPU feature initialization, skipping that feat altogether. What I seen from it was that the screen jumped to 65536 colors for a moment and a Win10 message that it restarted the driver after a crash.

TBH even XP was quite alright with GPU handling in that regard. I mean, my Asus Radeon 9550 slowly fried after an unlucky PSU switch, which couldn't give it enough power to start up the fan and I had to spin it up on my own to get it running. Interestingly, OpenGL output was the first which deteriorated so I pretty much used Voxel Viewer as my de facto temperature sensor - if it started producing faulty polygons, GPU is close to overheating. XP itself was still ongoing when it's native GDI+ ended up producing miscolored pixels - and that was really close to it's final moments.

Also, random disconnects sound like a hardware issue, in which case, it's not the OS which should be blamed at all, Loser02.
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E1 Elite
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a TDR (Timeout Detection and Recovery) feature in the later OS, which detects the delay in response for GPU drivers and prevents the whole system crashing. I remember the nVidia driver when it was first released for Win10, the parallel version 362.xx for Win7 had more of this TDR problem. There are registry setting to check how much delay is considered acceptable (by default 2 seconds).

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TAK02
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Graion Dilach wrote:
random disconnects sound like a hardware issue, in which case, it's not the OS which should be blamed at all, Loser02.

Correct, but that doesn't excuse the OS being this sensitive to untimely/random disconnects or hardware problems.
If it helps: disconnecting the GPU just before signing in (or during) prompted the crash. And that's with a machine whose GPU was designed to be disconnected during normal run-time when it wasn't really in use.
Also, a 'hard-reset' fixed the issue. For now.

@4StarGeneral: I hate 7 with a passion: my 7s refused to run RA2, but my friends got it to work out-of-the-box. Vista had the same issue.

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FurryQueen
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When vital hardware is failing, the software can only do so much. You're probably one of those types who'd whine because Windows didn't magically keep working on a dying hard drive. It's pretty clear you don't know much about any of those so your complaints are, at best, surface level and, at worst, completely ignorant and misinformed.

I have never had an OS 'refuse' to run a game that wasn't because of shitty hardware. Every time I've had game issues, it was my hardware.
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TAK02
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FurryQueen wrote:
You're probably one of those types who'd whine because Windows didn't magically keep working on a dying hard drive.
Never had an HHD/SDD die on me.
Yet.
FurryQueen wrote:
I have never had an OS 'refuse' to run a game that wasn't because of shitty hardware. Every time I've had game issues, it was my hardware.
Then you're of the lucky ones that had no issues running RA2 on newer systems, I take it?
Because the hard-ware then and now was much more than enough to get games to work, heck, things like GTA (3D games) and heavy games (like Unreal Engine games) work(ed) excellently.

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FurryQueen
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've had C&C games fail to work without some tinkering on XP, Vista, 7, 8 and 10. But I can usually get them to run without much problem. Then again, they're games made for 20 year old operating systems so the fact they don't run easily at all times is an indication of the time it was made, not the OS.

It's not just hardware that can cause errors with games. Architecture is an issue. If it's not made to use the hardware, the hardware is your issue still. Rarely is it JUST the OS. Infinitesimally small chance. Hardware, the game itself or a software interaction.

You will have a drive die. It's only a question of when.
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