Personally I think its just that the RA2/YR Community is a bit smaller now since times do change and most people nowadays prefer modern hi-def bloom-tastic crap. Either way the Community is smaller and very isolated so its hard to communicate with the other branches of the CnC Community.
As PPM's "modern hi-def bloom-tastic crap" modder, I'd like to say that the modding community is smaller here to. I know a many RA3 modders who would eat a apoc for something close to the post publisher support that RA2 is getting.
And for you to bite my hi-def bloom-tastic a$$. _________________ I am Zengar Zombolt, The Sword That Cleaves Evil! There is Nothing I can not Cut! QUICK_EDIT
Personally I think its just that the RA2/YR Community is a bit smaller now since times do change and most people nowadays prefer modern hi-def bloom-tastic crap. Either way the Community is smaller and very isolated so its hard to communicate with the other branches of the CnC Community.
As PPM's "modern hi-def bloom-tastic crap" modder, I'd like to say that the modding community is smaller here to. I know a many RA3 modders who would eat a apoc for something close to the post publisher support that RA2 is getting.
And for you to bite my hi-def bloom-tastic a$$.
No offense intended. I play myself of recent games (Borderlands,TF2,RA3,CNC3,Hellgate : London) Its just the general feel of video games nowadays... Most games just feel like rehashed concepts with HD graphics tossed in. I'm all up for people making Mods for the newer versions so don't take it the wrong way. _________________ ~ Excelsior ~ QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:39 am Post subject:
Gangster wrote:
Another example: after 0.1 i've start having problem with WH SW. Nobody else have but I do. How so? Am I idiot? Should i report?...
Guess what, name of tags have been changes, and no word was mentioned about this in documentation.
There was. It happened when ft-superweapons were merged. Documentation was updated in all the time. I remember, I tested ft-superweapons. QUICK_EDIT
When I released the first version of the SW additions, I posted in the forums and mentioned what I changed (like the nuke sound and the generic warhead tag names).
Ok someone has too much free time, got about half way through.
Look at Gangster pulling off the exact same shit I mentioned, and Alex standing there, having to correct him.
Now ponder if it's wise to ignore half of what I'm saying, in the expectation that Alex will feel differently after two more years under the same conditions.
OmegaBolt wrote:
Personally I never minded VK's release method. Sure there were bugs, quite a few of them, but the very fact he was working on it and releasing it fairly regularly far outweighed the problem of a few bugs. It only sucked when he left the community and stopped updating it.
Funny, I remember more bitching. Maybe you were the exception proving the rule. Or you're just wrong.
OmegaBolt wrote:
From the beginning it seemed like Renegade and co. have wanted to do it one way, while the community has wanted it another and the two have never met in the middle.
Yes, we had that romantic idea that we could all work together and create something great. The community was more content with bitching and leeching.
OmegaBolt wrote:
Of course YR modders everywhere care for and want to use Ares, it can only be a benefit for them
Singular community members keep claiming that. I have yet to see any sign of this vast shadow army of Ares fans.
OmegaBolt wrote:
however it's hard to be motivated to work for for people who appear to actively disengage themselves from the rest of the community.
Oh sure, suddenly the entire community wants to help, and it's all our fault they don't.
Independent from the laughable attempt to justify the community's apathy, can you back this whole "actively disengaging" claim up, or were you just hoping no one would question it?
'cause, you know, being the one who wrote shitloads of news posts, who actively tried to find people to represent us elsewhere, to create promotional materials, having created promotional material myself, etc., etc., I'd say you're full of shit.
OmegaBolt wrote:
Now I've been using Ares for the last two years, working on my mod when I can. I don't have a lot of time or even interest to work on it heavily as it's purely for fun. If I came across any issues I reported them but from my skirmishing in my own mod, using features I want to use, I've not come across many faults (especially the last 8 months or so). I don't have time to test full time, I'd rather work on my own mod.
So you admit to having used Ares regularly, and you admit having noticed there weren't really any issues.
How many additional times would we have had to request being informed about there not being any issues for you to decide to invest the one minute it'd take to post "Omega here, still no issues with the following features: ..."? Ten times? A hundred? A thousand?
You had information we explicitly requested, and decided not to help us.
But we're the issue.
CCHyper wrote:
Seriously...
This whole topic is becoming bullshit...
This topic has been bullshit from the start.
If everyone bitching in here had shown the same effort supporting Ares, 0.2 would've been released two years ago.
4StarGeneral wrote:
All of what pd said.
I cared about Ares from the start, but no one really wanted to explain to me how to test it. Maybe a couple lines, but mostly "Just test it like everything else".
Are you willing to back that up with links, or are you just hoping no one will question it?
'cause it sounds to me like people were willing to help you, and you just didn't let them.
4StarGeneral wrote:
I tested the 'latest build?' and came across nothing that hasn't been already reported on the bugtracker, using all the features I could think of, but without an updated manual I can't figure out WHAT exactly needs testing.
Seriously, how much more can the process be dumbed down?
4StarGeneral wrote:
Just my two-cents, and I'm sure I'm not alone by reading what Omega said.
You not being alone in not testing is kind of the problem. There's no surprise there.
RP wrote:
Well in that case he is just not a very good reader.
Yeah. And yet he's here, telling everyone it's all Ares's and its developers' fault. Maybe you can understand the frustration now. _________________ #renproj:renegadeprojects.com via Matrix - direct link QUICK_EDIT
Renegade wants to bitch because that's what he does best at.
EDIT: Furthermore, I choose not to be involved with Ares' development because I don't like Renegade as a community member, developer, admin, or host. I don't have free time to dedicate to a mod, and Ares' fate is independent of my project and goals. QUICK_EDIT
Personally I never minded VK's release method. Sure there were bugs, quite a few of them, but the very fact he was working on it and releasing it fairly regularly far outweighed the problem of a few bugs. It only sucked when he left the community and stopped updating it.
Funny, I remember more bitching. Maybe you were the exception proving the rule. Or you're just wrong.
Well of course there was bitching, there always is, I simply said that the very fact he was openly releasing updates and fixing (some of) the bugs (until he quit) made it less annoying that there were bugs (because they should eventually be fixed).
Renegade wrote:
OmegaBolt wrote:
however it's hard to be motivated to work for for people who appear to actively disengage themselves from the rest of the community.
Oh sure, suddenly the entire community wants to help, and it's all our fault they don't.
Independent from the laughable attempt to justify the community's apathy, can you back this whole "actively disengaging" claim up, or were you just hoping no one would question it?
'cause, you know, being the one who wrote shitloads of news posts, who actively tried to find people to represent us elsewhere, to create promotional materials, having created promotional material myself, etc., etc., I'd say you're full of shit.
Yes I'm sure you wrote a shit load of overlong news posts, it seems thats what you do, but those news posts were unfortunately pretty useless being on a forum that only a few members actually visit. I'm sure the Ares hardcore group go there because it's the only place to go but providing information only on a very small, quiet corner of the C&C community is in no way going to get you any new interest or members. Ares either needed to regularly reach out or be centralised elsewhere in my opinion.
Yes it's a button away and of course I'm fucking lazy. I'm in my own home, spending my free time on the computer and this is the fucking internet: why the hell would I waste time getting involved in another forum that really doesn't provide me much entertainment. PPM for all it's drama at least provides regular updates on several mods and is a genuinely active place, Revora is quieter but I hope for a revival on some of my old favourites. They are the two places I check for C&C. I'm not intending to insult your community, it's commendable, I just feel the whole thing is too anal. The drama on this site is actually pretty fun to witness even if is lowest common denominator entertainment and every damn topic ends in spam or flamewar (i.e this one).
An analogy: Ares is arthouse and I'm a Transformers lover.
Renegade wrote:
OmegaBolt wrote:
Now I've been using Ares for the last two years, working on my mod when I can. I don't have a lot of time or even interest to work on it heavily as it's purely for fun. If I came across any issues I reported them but from my skirmishing in my own mod, using features I want to use, I've not come across many faults (especially the last 8 months or so). I don't have time to test full time, I'd rather work on my own mod.
So you admit to having used Ares regularly, and you admit having noticed there weren't really any issues.
How many additional times would we have had to request being informed about there not being any issues for you to decide to invest the one minute it'd take to post "Omega here, still no issues with the following features: ..."? Ten times? A hundred? A thousand?
You had information we explicitly requested, and decided not to help us.
But we're the issue.
Well again Renegade Projects or wherever just doesn't interact with my internet viewings very often at all. Perhaps then there is nothing you can do and Ares should indeed die. Make a decision.
Also I heard you'd quit or something? So why are you even arguing about it? Just wonderin'. QUICK_EDIT
Personally I think its just that the RA2/YR Community is a bit smaller now since times do change and most people nowadays prefer modern hi-def bloom-tastic crap. Either way the Community is smaller and very isolated so its hard to communicate with the other branches of the CnC Community.
As PPM's "modern hi-def bloom-tastic crap" modder, I'd like to say that the modding community is smaller here to. I know a many RA3 modders who would eat a apoc for something close to the post publisher support that RA2 is getting.
And for you to bite my hi-def bloom-tastic a$$.
No offense intended. I play myself of recent games (Borderlands,TF2,RA3,CNC3,Hellgate : London) Its just the general feel of video games nowadays... Most games just feel like rehashed concepts with HD graphics tossed in. I'm all up for people making Mods for the newer versions so don't take it the wrong way.
Sorry for snapping, It was 3am local time, and I was a little sore from the week. Sorry about that.
But Rehashing is what gets the fans happy. 90% of This site alone would sell there house for Westwood to return and make Tiberium Sun 2.
Though When they get A rehash, like RA2mk.2 aka RA3, the complain about what your saying. There is no winning here.
And Yes I would eat all 16 layers of Apoc Armor for an RA3 Ares. I would even salvage a whole Yuri side for someone who would. _________________ I am Zengar Zombolt, The Sword That Cleaves Evil! There is Nothing I can not Cut! QUICK_EDIT
I think perhaps it's time to cut the losses and just give up on Ares and look for alternatives such as whole other engines. I'm not familiar with Ares type programming but it seems like a lot of work for little reward with no way to really re-use the work for anything else. I didn't really mind making 3ds2vxl so much because most of the code is re-usable for lots of other things such as a very big project I have planned to make a living from.
I don't really know what's going on in the mod community because I do not play any of these RTS games except very rarely when my friends or cousins want to play with me. I think we need to ask, why are people still interested in the old games as opposed to the newer ones that use polygons? Haven't the polygon games now reached a level of technological sophistication where they can rival the visual quality of the prerendered sprite based games? Are the new games just less fun? are they less modifiable? Are they too hardware demanding? Do many of the fans just have really old computers only? The older pre-polygon games don't use the GPUs or multi-processing at all do they? Despite this, do the old games run much better than the new games? QUICK_EDIT
I think perhaps it's time to cut the losses and just give up on Ares and look for alternatives such as whole other engines. I'm not familiar with Ares type programming but it seems like a lot of work for little reward with no way to really re-use the work for anything else. I didn't really mind making 3ds2vxl so much because most of the code is re-usable for lots of other things such as a very big project I have planned to make a living from.
I don't really know what's going on in the mod community because I do not play any of these RTS games except very rarely when my friends or cousins want to play with me. I think we need to ask, why are people still interested in the old games as opposed to the newer ones that use polygons? Haven't the polygon games now reached a level of technological sophistication where they can rival the visual quality of the prerendered sprite based games? Are the new games just less fun? are they less modifiable? Are they too hardware demanding? Do many of the fans just have really old computers only? The older pre-polygon games don't use the GPUs or multi-processing at all do they? Despite this, do the old games run much better than the new games?
I Defended new games. I left because of overwhelming offense to my defense of new games. Yet even I know that a Modding community deals with ALL games. Those who do not know the past and all. You seem to not know the details of the site you are on.
Please reestablish what site you are on and contemplate your statement. _________________ I am Zengar Zombolt, The Sword That Cleaves Evil! There is Nothing I can not Cut! QUICK_EDIT
I think we need to ask, why are people still interested in the old games as opposed to the newer ones that use polygons?
Probably because the older games are easier to mod and there aren't that many quality RTS games made nowadays (meaning, the older games are more fun). Also, while this is debatable, it's a community dedicated to C&C and the newest C&C games have been disappointing in the eyes of many members.
In addition, IMO for example TI does look graphically nicer than most 3D RTSs do The upcoming F2P C&C being an exception (Frostbite looks amazing graphically).
On the topic, to me it looked like Ares had potential but I'm a TS modder so I've never had a reason for helping its development. I think this is one problem of the C&C community; there's a dozen different games so the fans are also seperated between a dozen different games, meaning that there isn't that much interest in a single game. _________________ CnCNet Client | CnCNet TS patches | More Quality-of-Life Improvements for RA Remastered
Heh can't say I miss the community being mostly inactive for months as what this community does best is bitch 'n' whine apart from the generic greed and frankly such is not motivating to mod for fun at all.
Besides I would consider ARES as an middleware so it really does mostly limit feedback coming only from modders which are notably small crowd compared to people that enjoy being lazy developmentally and just play mods/games in general and from them you can't really expect indepth feedback for something as middleware'ish thing as ARES and as far modders go, all you can do is develop it and assume all is ok unless said otherwise, its just ARES team wanted confirmations all the way and probably not many wanna take chances declaring things are ok when it might be illusion they are only to receive whine for stating bullshit afterwards but that's really the reality of TS/RA2 engine, its never really stable and its unlikely could ever fix it to the point nothing could go wrong and any grand ideals of producing bug free enhancement belong in trash bin given the cheese it is built upon.
Generally modding wise, its good for 2D crowd for its diverse modding capability and features... while there have been nicer visually looking 2D RTS like SunAge, TS/RA2 engine has remained most flexible and something talented people could enhance in many ways.
3D RTS wise, the workloads are just ever greater to mod and generally the scale of warfare is lesser (except for SupCom) as polygons take heavier toll and you really can't achieve sprite like sharpness as 3D by its nature is blurry'ish and any massive war game would be lesser strain in 2D compared to 3D equivalent in Supreme Commander that suffers heavy lag easily.
In hindsight, ARES as an project was started too late but thats also true for most of the patches as well since too many years were wasted on fool's quest on TBL research non-sense to expand the game in early years and many modders left to never return and I've watched the decline from 2000s to today. Last edited by ApolloTD on Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:04 am; edited 1 time in total QUICK_EDIT
in IMO/
Ares is more of a game specific extendion to Ra2 and R3 repectivily.
However what i gather for the posts so far.
Is the lack of infomation inside Ares itself. those with a data cap like me want to know about a mod before they download it and all its shortfalls and great, interesting features, in a documnet on the news section of the ares website.
but it is infomation the people seek in more places than just the home site _________________ Link to a document to see what mods i have and/or working on or working with
Click QUICK_EDIT
So you admit to having used Ares regularly, and you admit having noticed there weren't really any issues.
How many additional times would we have had to request being informed about there not being any issues for you to decide to invest the one minute it'd take to post "Omega here, still no issues with the following features: ..."? Ten times? A hundred? A thousand?
Wait a second. So he (anybody of us) could just create thread in your site (Renegade Projects) and write what is he using and testing in his mod, and explain if he did not found any issues? or only him and certain people are available to do so if they were testers?
So basically I can go there, create thread and write ,,I am using this version of ares, I am using following codes (and list them all one by one showing my examples), and I did not found any of problems/or I found problems only with this..." ? _________________ PPM Halloween Season 2021 QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:59 am Post subject:
Yes, Haosis, that is correct.
I am not willing to participate in the rest. Either I am just too much of a newcomer (with having only 2 years of active modding experiences) either I don't see I could add in something new.
But IMO if the playerbase could be sticked together then maybe there could be a new way to keep the engine alive (Transport Tycoon hits always my mind with TT-Forums and now OpenTTD). Tho yeah, that needs more than ~3-4 coders. QUICK_EDIT
From what I have read, this whole thread is ridiculous. Ares is where this community reached it's highest point in YR modding activity (during the later years at least) and now it's considered to be "dying" because it's not getting enough attention, right? Do correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't one of the sole aims of Ares to boost activity throughout the modding community? If so, it has done and is still one of the primary reasons a lot of YR modders are sticking around.
People have other things to do rather than testing and coding Ares 24/7 but even so there are hundreds of suggestions, feature ideas and tons of feedback so I fail to see how that isn't enough activity/attention.
The community is dying, everybody knows that, especially the guys working on Ares but there isn't much we can do about it.
Quote:
Singular community members keep claiming that. I have yet to see any sign of this vast shadow army of Ares fans.
Oh please. Pay enough attention to the Ares fans rather than insulting and ignoring them for not being as knowledgeable in the programming critera as you are and maybe you'll be able to see for yourself. The fact that people have made trailers to show off new Ares features which have more views than some of my favorite bands best tracks on YouTube would be enough motivation for me. As a mod leader myself, the fact that I have seen live streams, fan videos, fan voxels/drawings/shp's and even fan-fiction has been more than enough motivation to keep me going, and I still don't believe I have as big a fan-base as Ares does. I mod for the sake of fun, I don't mod with the expectation of getting something back from a dying community.
Something I find funny is that many people I have spoken to about Ares really enjoy and appreciate your work, but without fail it is stated that your forum "is ran by assholes". Ever thought that your attitude may actually have something to do with the activity and feedback you get on your site?
I respect your work and abilities, but your arrogant attitude is something else, but I know that when you read this you'll just throw everything at me that you possibly can to make me feel small like you do with everybody else you don't consider to be on your level of knowledge.
I haven't read through this whole thread on the grounds that I don't have the time or patience to do so. That, and I don't seem to enjoy the drama and attention whoring as much as others in this community do, so to sum it up, I agree with Starkku's comment on the first page.
Quote:
In addition, IMO for example TI does look graphically nicer than most 3D RTSs do
Thank you, good sir. Last edited by Aro on Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:59 pm; edited 2 times in total QUICK_EDIT
PD first created RockPatch as a solo gig and did it on the side as a hobby, and honestly, the Ares team keeps getting coders to help them, yet they complain they aren't getting enough help like its their job to work on it. As far as I know, PD AND VK did it in their SPARE TIME without bitching about it.
Also, look, the community doesn't bitch at you like they did at VK (mostly because he screwed up RockPatch, then disallowed people to use it), so I don't understand the problem. _________________ "Don't beg for things; Do it yourself or you'll never get anything." QUICK_EDIT
Renegade, what do you want then? Apologies that we (as in the community) let you (as in the Ares team) down?
I want the community to stop bitching about shit they have no idea about, mostly. If you never inform yourselves and never contribute, don't turn around demanding shit and spreading lies.
m7 wrote:
Furthermore, I choose not to be involved with Ares' development because I don't like Renegade as a community member, developer, admin, or host.
Does that mean you will help Alex, now that I'm out of the picture?
(Or have been, for months, really.)
m7 wrote:
I don't have free time to dedicate to a mod, and Ares' fate is independent of my project and goals.
Oh, look, no, it doesn't. Because the true reason is you don't care enough to dedicate time to Ares. Which would be fine, really...if you openly admitted "Ares is not important enough to me to support it" instead of pretending you cared and bitching about the project not going the way you want.
Either you care, or you don't. If you care, involve yourself. If you don't, don't bitch.
OmegaBolt wrote:
Yes I'm sure you wrote a shit load of overlong news posts, it seems thats what you do, but those news posts were unfortunately pretty useless being on a forum that only a few members actually visit. I'm sure the Ares hardcore group go there because it's the only place to go but providing information only on a very small, quiet corner of the C&C community is in no way going to get you any new interest or members. Ares either needed to regularly reach out or be centralised elsewhere in my opinion.
Centralized...you mean like, have Ares news on Ares's main site?
That's funny, 'cause that's how it always has been.
All you would've had to do was to go to Ares's official site for Ares news.
So yeah...don't gimme that crap about "it's another forum, I don't wanna go". You don't have to visit RenProj forums for Ares news - you never had to in the past, and you especially don't have to since the beginning of the year.
The start of the next paragraph sums it up, really:
OmegaBolt wrote:
Yes it's a button away and of course I'm fucking lazy.
That's really what this is about. You don't want mere outreach. You want Ares devs to come to your house, have your butler let them in, stand next to your chair and spoon-feed you Ares news, so you don't have to do a thing to stay informed.
So let's look at this from our point of view: You're a user who admittedly can't even be bothered to click one button and read the latest news about Ares. So why should we assume you care about Ares even the slightest bit?
OmegaBolt wrote:
Well again Renegade Projects or wherever just doesn't interact with my internet viewings very often at all. Perhaps then there is nothing you can do and Ares should indeed die. Make a decision.
ROFL. Way to skirt the issue.
So we'll stay with "I can't be bothered to click one button to inform myself and I don't want to explain why I chose not to support Ares".
OmegaBolt wrote:
Also I heard you'd quit or something? So why are you even arguing about it? Just wonderin'.
You couldn't even be bothered to read Ares's news, let alone know anything about day-to-day Ares development, yet you're here. So why shouldn't I be?
@ViPr: Hi, thank you for leaving your pitchfork at home (and thank you for your contributions to the community in general). There is no general problem with creating an engine from scratch (D has, iirc, created a basic prototype within a few days when he played around with XNA); the true problem arises out of two facts:
It's a shitload of work.
You still have to deal with the same crappy formats.
The former problem has to be seen in context: We're talking about investing years of a programmer's life while getting no community support creating a product for people who can't even be bothered to read the project's news, let alone contribute in a meaningful way. Basically, it's just you using up your spare time, for years, to create a YR clone.
The latter problem is just frustrating. On the one hand, you'd want to create a new engine to not have to deal with the idiosyncrasies of Westwood's engine. On the other hand, in order to provide a proper clone or a product that is compatible with pretty much any previous community work, one that gives a certain amount of familiarity, you have to support the majority of, if not all of Westwood's formats.
So even though we live in a world of fully hardware-accelerated polygons, you'd still have to go ahead and deal with voxels and HVAs, calculating collisions of the digital equivalent of Legos every frame.
And then you're at a point where you not only have to deal with these file formats and implement the community's wishes regarding them, you also have to maintain and debug the parsers, making sure they remain Westwood-compliant.
The alternative, of course, would be entering one of the existing open source engines cloning the earlier games and expanding them to be YR-compatible, but then you're doing the same thing and have to deal with someone else's codebase and a different community who might have different goals or needs than the one we're in. Which means you need to fork, which means you're now dealing with modding someone else's engine again, only this time it's not Westwood's and you have the source.
So yeah. tl;dr: It's less a technical issue, it's more one of investing twice the work to get the same insanity.
MasterHaosis wrote:
So basically I can go there, create thread and write ,,I am using this version of ares, I am using following codes (and list them all one by one showing my examples), and I did not found any of problems/or I found problems only with this..." ?
Nighthawk pre-created one or two threads for that, so it wouldn't all be spread, and later asked people to put it on the wiki at github instead, but essentially, yes.
Mig Eater, for example, posted this once:
Mig eater wrote:
All is working fine with D-day, list of what I'm using:
Seven new sides each with one new corresponding county, using pretty much every related tag (all the original sides/counties have been removed BTW).
Used the WeaponTypes for multiple new cluster weapons.
Several new ArmorTypes, which I'm using to mainly to replace the land/naval targeting system etc.
Several MakeInfantry anims using MakeInfantryOwner for spawning dummy mine fields & reinforcement etc.
Using a modified LightningStorm as an artillery strike.
MultiMissile used as V2 rocket.
Using many SpyPlane type super weapons as airstrikes.
Multiple paradrop super weapons with individual units, planes & anims for each side.
Using a UnitDelivery super weapons as a workaround for a drop pod style SW.
Survivor is being used extensively to spawn dummy infantry as "tank wreaks".
Using Solid Buildings on over 400 structures.
Many, many buildings using Custom Foundations.
Using Negative Prerequisites & Prerequisite Groups.
Using building upgrades as both positive & negative prerequisites.
Secret Lab system used on several buildings.
Added several new farm animals with IsCow.
Custom Insignias used on over 500 units.
Using most of the new SpyEffects.
Using a Radar Jammer type unit.
Most if not all new anims & buildings are using custom palettes.
Used #include lots of times, especially with game modes.
Using a stringtable00.csf file.
Extended the Dropdown Colours to use the other defult colours.
Custamised the UI with a new colour scheme.
Hidden the Campaign screen with the Button Customization.
I'm also using the Reverse Engineer logic, but that feature is still a bit buggy. I have mention why/what etc on the bug tracker.
As several of us have mentioned in multiple posts pretty much everywhere, the entire issue over the past year or two is that the code base is too big for three people alone to test. We needed to know what is working and what isn't, so we could focus on that which isn't.
Unfortunately, the amount of feedback we got was limited, as usual.
Aro wrote:
People have other things to do rather than testing and coding Ares 24/7 but even so there are hundreds of suggestions, feature ideas and tons of feedback so I fail to see how that isn't enough activity/attention.
Because you're wrong. Sure, there are tons of suggestions and feature ideas, but little feedback on the actual implementation of those, or the bugfixes made along the way.
Basically, everybody wants everything implemented, but no one wants to check if it works.
Also, many of those feature requests are years old, so the total count is misleading.
Aro wrote:
The community is dying, everybody knows that, especially the guys working on Ares but there isn't much we can do about it.
.
Truth.
Aro wrote:
Oh please. Pay enough attention to the Ares fans rather than insulting and ignoring them for not being as knowledgeable in the programming critera as you are and maybe you'll be able to see for yourself.
If I ignored people for having no idea of programming, I'd end up like Will Smith in I am Legend.
Besides, as we've seen multiple times in this thread, the issue is not that Ares devs don't go elsewhere, it's that no one comes to Ares.
Aro wrote:
The fact that people have made trailers to show off new Ares features which have more views than some of my favorite bands best tracks on YouTube would be enough motivation for me.
...created by the exact same people already involved with Ares. For which we are thankful, which we regularly express in the news posts no one reads.
Unfortunately, as we have also explained, Ares is a damn big project, and all motivation in the world doesn't replace more people actually working on it.
Aro wrote:
As a mod leader myself, the fact that I have seen live streams, fan videos, fan voxels/drawings/shp's and even fan-fiction has been more than enough motivation to keep me going, and I still don't believe I have as big a fan-base as Ares does. I mod for the sake of fun, I don't mod with the expectation of getting something back from a dying community.
That is good for you, but I'd venture a guess your mod is both smaller and less complex than Ares is. So while I'm happy to see there are still modders left to which modding is rewarding, the fact of the matter is that you're comparing apples to oranges.
And it's not so much about our expectations, really, but about an exchange of expectations. The community is expecting a product of the size and the complexity of a small game, created using not just ordinary programming, but reverse engineering, all without lifting a single finger over a timeframe of years.
And that's just plain unrealistic.
If they expect others to do the heavy lifting, the least the developers can expect is that people read the news and tell them whether shit is working every once in a while.
Aro wrote:
Something I find funny is that many people I have spoken to about Ares really enjoy and appreciate your work, but without fail it is stated that your forum "is ran by assholes". Ever thought that your attitude may actually have something to do with the activity and feedback you get on your site?
As in all cases where this catch-all excuse come up, I am willing to talk about any and all individual posts I have made.
Pick someone who claimed that, show me the thread in question, and I will happily talk about the flow of conversation with you.
Should it turn out that I, in fact, did behave like an asshole, I will apologize.
In the vast majority of cases, it turns out that it wasn't actually an issue of approach, people just didn't like the answer they were getting, information-context-wise. (No, we're not going to implement feature X, here's why ...)
Aro wrote:
I respect your work and abilities, but your arrogant attitude is something else, but I know that when you read this you'll just throw everything at me that you possibly can to make me feel small like you do with everybody else you don't consider to be on your level of knowledge.
I have accused people of not even reading the news. OmegaBolt has admitted that's true. I accused people of not properly informing themselves. Gangster, in this very thread, has shown an example of that. I have accused people of stupidity. ArvinCool's example of not even being capable of distinguishing between "gaping" and "not gaping" has not changed my opinion.
Please, do tell me how factual statements about the state of affairs constitute "arrogance". How often does what I say have to be proven correct until you accept that this is the community as it presents itself to Ares's developers, no matter if it presents itself differently to you?
4StarGeneral wrote:
PD first created RockPatch as a solo gig and did it on the side as a hobby, and honestly, the Ares team keeps getting coders to help them, yet they complain they aren't getting enough help like its their job to work on it. As far as I know, PD AND VK did it in their SPARE TIME without bitching about it.
pd himself, in this very thread, already confirmed that Ares is much more complex than RockPatch.
Also, if you look closely at our correspondence from the past two years, the number of coders was never a problem. The number of testers was.
Certainly, more coders would increase the number of features and fixes per time unit (to a certain extent), so we always invited people to join us. But the true blocking issue has always been the lack of testers, and that's what we communicated.
If you didn't quite grasp this yet, here it is again, in simple terms: The problem is not developing Ares. The problem is making sure it's stable. Not because we are incapable of fixing bugs, but because we don't have the manpower to find the bugs.
That is all we ever asked for: That people use Ares and tell us what's broken and what isn't.
Apparently that was too much to ask.
4StarGeneral wrote:
Also, look, the community doesn't bitch at you like they did at VK (mostly because he screwed up RockPatch, then disallowed people to use it), so I don't understand the problem.
Would you please explain to OmegaBolt that the bitching did, indeed, happen? He seems to suffer from some nostalgia-induced memory loss.
Yes, not being on VK's level is nice. But it doesn't help you finding stupid-ass bugs appearing when you combine logic X with expansion Y.
Ixonoclast wrote:
I'm taking a wild guess here, but judging from the three pages and the sheer amount of posts here, I'd say Ares is still very much alive.
Ares's coders never lacked animation. The testing team was usually dead on arrival, though.
Ixonoclast wrote:
Ares just needs to get rid of the common cold.
We're open to suggestions. Do you have anything novel, or just the usual "more release equals more reports"? _________________ #renproj:renegadeprojects.com via Matrix - direct link QUICK_EDIT
I wouldn't say that this topic is becoming bullshit. It's a collection of viewpoints that can be used to draw conclusions for the future.
I see some people showing some kind of meh-attitude (not directed to anybody specifically), but there are also many people who helped and still help to improve Ares, not all of them participating in this thread.
Still, one can never have enough testers, because as a coder I can't verify my own work. Or maybe I made no error in what I did, but modders can't use a feature because it doesn't make any sense ingame.
Everyone wants to have fun, but lengthy debugging and bugfixing isn't. Really, it isn't. The more people find bugs, the less fun Ares is for me (simplified). Actually, not having any testers would allow me to code more crappy features faster, which would be more fun. And if I have fun, you get IEs.
I know several modders say Ares is fairly stable, and I think it is when used within reason. Whenever Ares shifts the limits, modders catch up pretty quickly. Ares doubles the speed, modders add three times the objects and the game still gets slower. This race cannot be won.
Ideally, you'd get a stable Ares release without the fancy red warning banner as quickly as possible. But I think I promised it so many times that my word has lost any meaning.
The next few days I'll see how this gordian knot can be cut. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 18 Jun 2005 Location: Dordrecht, the Netherlands
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:47 pm Post subject:
Renegade wrote:
I want the community to stop bitching about shit they have no idea about, mostly. If you never inform yourselves and never contribute, don't turn around demanding shit and spreading lies.
I hope you do know that this is the usual way how things go in real life? Customers want (or sometimes demand) new functions, and won't use the software if their demands aren't met. On the other hand, when new functions are being completed and given out for testing, 99% of the customers doesn't take the time to test, and either says it's okay or doesn't respond. If this results that the software has a broken functionality, the programmers get bitched at.
See any similarities between the Ares situation and RL? Like it or not, but this is how stuff always goes. Of course this makes you pissed off and dislike (or even hate) your customers, but it's part of the deal. You can want that your customers stop bitching, but then you lose your customers.
And for something completely different, I have a theory or 2 why Ares lacks testers. They are 2 vicious (not sure if correct word) circles:
Circle 1:
1) only a few people tested Ares from the beginning when it was still a closed testing
2) testing went open, and some new testers tried Ares, but where either overwhelmed by the professionalism of the project (as in: doing it like coders would handle any other project), or encountered bugs/stuff that where still being worked on. They leave again, leaving only the original testers and the few new guys who struggle trough these obstacles
3) Ares makes a news post/promo is being posted, some new modders want to try Ares. Go to 2), and repeat
Circle 2:
1) someone wants a new feature seen in a different game implemented into Ares
2) feature is requested, but is ignored/scrapped for whatever reason
3) person decides he will forget Ares then, and moves on
Do note that I've only used Ares a bit for my private YR mod, as it was more stable then NPatch. I have been looking at the Bug Center a couple of times, just to see how stuff was going (and out of general interest as a fellow coder). Hell, if it is really necessary, I can provide coding assistance if my free time allows it. I have to admit I have moved on to Generals by now, so it may take me some time to get back up to speed on RA2 related matters. QUICK_EDIT
Yes I'm sure you wrote a shit load of overlong news posts, it seems thats what you do, but those news posts were unfortunately pretty useless being on a forum that only a few members actually visit. I'm sure the Ares hardcore group go there because it's the only place to go but providing information only on a very small, quiet corner of the C&C community is in no way going to get you any new interest or members. Ares either needed to regularly reach out or be centralised elsewhere in my opinion.
Centralized...you mean like, have Ares news on Ares's main site?
No I mean like on another forum, ie PPM or Revora. If there were active discussions on Ares on either of those forums then I'd always be commenting, take a look at this topic. And again, it's another website with nothing but news on it. I don't even bother visiting the PPM mainsite so the Ares site has no chance of getting my attention. Also from what I remember of the news posts they were far too long, totally text based (I want colourful flashing images and things) and whinging about how shite the support is. People won't respond to that, rather they need an injection of how great Ares logics are so they'll want to help.
If this PPM Ares forum gets use then I'm sure I'll be a lot more active.
Renegade wrote:
OmegaBolt wrote:
Yes it's a button away and of course I'm fucking lazy.
That's really what this is about. You don't want mere outreach. You want Ares devs to come to your house, have your butler let them in, stand next to your chair and spoon-feed you Ares news, so you don't have to do a thing to stay informed.
That'd be even better.
Renegade wrote:
why should we assume you care about Ares even the slightest bit?
You honestly don't have to, it really doesn't matter what you think. Point is you want action, I'm telling you (probably not articulately) what circumstances would make me, personally, act. If it's not worth the effort then that's ok too.
Renegade wrote:
OmegaBolt wrote:
Also I heard you'd quit or something? So why are you even arguing about it? Just wonderin'.
You couldn't even be bothered to read Ares's news, let alone know anything about day-to-day Ares development, yet you're here. So why shouldn't I be?
Because I am interested in Ares, clearly, else I wouldn't be repeatedly posting in this topic. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:55 pm Post subject:
OK. There are times when even I lose my temper.
Enough of this.
Ren, I understand what you want, what were your aims. You posted it more times than enough. You even argued with me about it.... tbh, except D, you already argued with everyone upon it. It's tiresome already. You should just sit down, relax and watch if anything changes. And as the User Support Agent, I tell you, with this, you can only achieve that everyone will stop using Ares. That's certainly not what any of us wants, considering that I so far got nowhere and I'm enough nudged about AE so far already to tell those guys that I'll do it.
What you doing just lowers Ares's reputation and my role is partially to raise it. So yeah, I ask you to stop.
Everyone arguing against Ren. Yes, he quitted. Yes, he actually ignores everything about it (except the PR, seems). BUT this thing ain't that overorganized as you would say. Just because it's ordered well... nah.
I read through the archives, I seen the flamewars. I seen the community hate back then, even if I was just a player of mods at that time.
I can even understand that for most of you, this seems the other end of the road.
But seriously, is it THAT bad? Let's ignore the flamewar in this topic (because with this arrogance you all demoted yourselves to the level of toddlers fighting for a soother)... was that bad due to strict, or was that bad due to demanding, or was that bad due... due to what?
I am willing to cooperate. If that means I shoulda stop being that strict to noobism, I will. I want to take serious, and I want to figure out why I'm hated that much, kinda. I know that due to my move of enforcing the old release rules on Gangster on TS Rewire, even random guys banish me as a flamer.
With the subplace at PPM, I am willing to stop enforcing the stricter rules of RenProj and willing to think in a more tolerable way... but I am not willing to participate in pointless wars just because one never liked how the project were treated along the rest. And I am not willing to interact users who just because of one treats the whole thing as crap.
But heck, I can't be helpful if all you do is just bashing each other, telling to ztype you and so on. I knew that'll happen if Ren steps in, but considering that you rest just even pour oil on the fire... really. What makes you better than him, now.
So yea, enough of this. Stop, all of you. We are not here to flame about the past. We are here to build the future, to discuss how to go further.
But if you think this useless flaming is the best way to go further then yes, I should just simply delete everything I can and leave it to rot.
My role is to aid the community, and right now I am willing to aid that portion too which I considered too unintelligent to support. But no, I won't support in pointless, everything-except-constructive flamewars. I'm on Ares's side right now, and right now, Ares could only benefit if people stop being nuts, both in-crew and outsiders, if otherwise nothing changes, that happens, if something gets better, that could also happen. That's all.
Regards. Your friendly User Support Agent. QUICK_EDIT
Oh, look, no, it doesn't. Because the true reason is you don't care enough to dedicate time to Ares. Which would be fine, really...if you openly admitted "Ares is not important enough to me to support it" instead of pretending you cared and bitching about the project not going the way you want.
Either you care, or you don't. If you care, involve yourself. If you don't, don't bitch.
Actually, that post made it pretty clear to anyone who read it that I could care less about Ares (and my own project) and not once in this thread did I bitch about any of this shit everyone is going on about. I honestly could care less if Ares becomes a pile of unusable code, or if it brings in a golden era of modding. It's not important to me, and it doesn't affect my ability to use what assets I have to work on my project. QUICK_EDIT
I'd like to start all over again and see a constructive discussion. So here is my thoughts.
You, Graion Dilach, once have said that I not a good tester because RW doesn't use much of Ares logic. I have to agree. But maybe we (me, someone) can start an example mod (all-in-one) so everyone who willing participate in testing could have a proper base for his experiments? _________________ Gangster is a Project Perfect Wuj (c)Aro QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:16 pm Post subject:
That had arisen in my thoughts more than a year ago already. And probably if I strip down my old mod, it can fit into that role... it almost uses all logics already, only Carryall ehancements and Urban Combat and some 2012-titbits were not featured in that one.
But it's more of a mess right now than a mod and I'm not sure how would others react on that. QUICK_EDIT
Also Known As: banshee_revora (Steam) Joined: 15 Aug 2002 Location: Brazil
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:32 pm Post subject:
Test mods are always a mess, don't worry. Keep the focus on testing the engine. That's what really matters. Don't waste time making a cute and organized mod for testing. QUICK_EDIT
If you expect an equally lenghty reply from me on that, please don't. I did read it completely, and my conclusion is that I can't reply. If you want, take it a win. Sorry, it seems to me like you nitpick every one of my sentences, weigh every single word, and take the contradictions that I'm trying to use for my argumentation as an error in my argumentation, making it faulty. I feel like you logically analyzed my post instead of trying to get and reply to my point. In fact, I don't really see you making a counter-point or anything; all you do is point out what you believe are errors in mine, insult the community and ask counter-questions in a way that makes it seem like you were trying to make me look stupid. (I know you don't like unconfirmed sources, but I had an unrelated person read parts of your reply and he felt the same way.)
Maybe I should formulate my point without claiming or "admitting" anything, but as a simple demand:
Stop making the fact that nobody helps halt the process of Ares. Punish the lazy bums with untested stuff instead of making everybody wait forever.
(now please, don't analyze how that demand is contradictory to what I said in earlier, I know you will find books full of "errors")
Quote:
run by arrogant assholes
That's the wrong way to put it. When reading Ren's replies (not all of them, but certainly many), the term coming to my mind is "dogmatic" - on an unhealthy level. Take the reply on my post that spanned several screen heights as a good example, I already said a few things about it above. It's a good thing to prove your point (oh look, that's a contradiction to what I said two sentences earlier!), but there's a point where it gets plain annoying and makes you look asshole and arrogant. Especially for the receiving end, which I can confirm.
Graion Dilach wrote:
Enough of this.
Agreed. Sorry for even replying, I should have done that before your line, and I am more than certain Renegade will have something to say about it. Grant him that right. In any event, you won't read any more from me on all of this.
Graion Dilach wrote:
But it's more of a mess right now than a mod and I'm not sure how would others react on that.
That's what my mod looked like, Graion. It never went public.
Everybody out here looks down upon the flying tesla monkey mods, but secretly I always loved them and mine was the perfect example. Nuclear cow paradrops, chrono terror camels, you name it.
Great testing environment, but a stupid-as-hell mod. QUICK_EDIT
Graion Dilach, thanks for pointing out Open Transport Tycoon Deluxe. That project seems really fascinating and I'm wondering if we can learn some important things from it.
Unfortunately it seems it was achieved by reverse engineering which I understand is quite controversial. I don't really know that much about reverse engineering but from what I understand so far it seems that it is quite unfair to the original programmers because it is almost the same thing as stealing their source code. It's basically industrial espionage isn't it? You get to relatively easily find out all the smart secret things that the programmers had to work so hard to invent, discover, or learn.
Ares is practically the same thing isn't it? I suppose the publisher doesn't complain because it drives up the popularity of their games and drives up sales for them but perhaps it does irk the original programmers since they don't get any extra money from it probably, and they now also have someone kind of openly plagiarizing their work.
From what I understand it seems there is some software that will automatically convert raw computer machine code into something resembling the source code except that all the commenting, paragraphing, and original made-up names of everything will be lost so it will be a little harder to understand this code compared to the original source code.
Joined: 19 Aug 2009 Location: Moscow State University
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:42 am Post subject:
Why not just sit down and code more features, if no one reports it then consider it stable,other than stop the project and argue with users that they don't report bugs?
I played with ares but found nothing.Should I post "fine" then developers will then continue?If I don't they will just wait for the bug reports?
When NPE was made I just used the features and encountered a few IEs.If I have IE,I will report.If I don't have,the development just goes on.Old bugs will be fixed in the next release.Bugs are ok.And so is GZ's development.
Why don't you bear bug reports after the release ?A group of people entitled "tester" to report it ,just like PD said.
Stop making the fact that nobody helps halt the process of Ares. Punish the lazy bums with untested stuff instead of making everybody wait forever.
Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:27 am Post subject:
ViPr, I didn't pointed out because it was reverse engineered. I pointed it out as something which could survive itself. I still feel it alive and running.
For some reason, while it's community got reduced to a mere forum, that forum isn't a place of pointless flamewars...
Also, there are no such software which can decompile an executable. There are some which says they can, but those usually fails on every complex function.
Also, Ares is no way similar to OpenTTD. It's more of something inbetween TTDPatch and OTTD. But heck, every patch made by the community for every game used reverse engineering here or there. (Vampire - The Masquerade : Bloodlines's patches are 70-80% made by the community, UT99's OpenAL patch, Dungeon Keeper 1 got one to play online, 2 to increase it's khm stability, Starfleet Command 2 also got community fixes, just to name a few)
Mostly these programs which gets reverse engineered are abandonware/ignored by the owners. And in most cases companies only attack these projects when they use trademarks or could be confusing (Freecraft, now Wargus). Reverse engineering is allowed in many countries as well.
I consider myself not the one who should speak about the release process, tho. I'm just a contzributor in that area. _________________ "If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
=======================
Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
=======================
WeiDU mods: Random Graion Tweaks | Graion's Soundsets
Maintainance: Extra Expanded Enhanced Encounters! | BGEESpawn
Contributions: EE Fixpack | Enhanced Edition Trilogy | DSotSC (Trilogy) | UB_IWD | SotSC & a lot more... QUICK_EDIT
On a sidenote, DCoder left because he was fed-up with the engine and its bugs, so everyone who read the article on Ares' website and thought DCoder left because the community was too lazy, has been fooled, badly. _________________
People need to stop moaning, whining, bitching and crying and just be thankful Ares even exists! _________________
The enemy shall be injected with toxic poison - Venom QUICK_EDIT
Oh sure...nobody would've batted an eyelash had this turned into a ten-page Ares bashing thread, but once someone actually comes and confronts your shit with reality, you all get your panties in a bunch.
Call me if you want a dose of realism in this discussion. Or if you need someone to fix your statements¹.
I'm willing to continue this once you grow the balls to.
@ViPr: I assume you missed this, I actually did reply to you in my previous post:
Renegade wrote:
There is no general problem with creating an engine from scratch (D has, iirc, created a basic prototype within a few days when he played around with XNA); the true problem arises out of two facts:
It's a shitload of work.
You still have to deal with the same crappy formats.
The former problem has to be seen in context: We're talking about investing years of a programmer's life while getting no community support creating a product for people who can't even be bothered to read the project's news, let alone contribute in a meaningful way. Basically, it's just you using up your spare time, for years, to create a YR clone.
The latter problem is just frustrating. On the one hand, you'd want to create a new engine to not have to deal with the idiosyncrasies of Westwood's engine. On the other hand, in order to provide a proper clone or a product that is compatible with pretty much any previous community work, one that gives a certain amount of familiarity, you have to support the majority of, if not all of Westwood's formats.
So even though we live in a world of fully hardware-accelerated polygons, you'd still have to go ahead and deal with voxels and HVAs, calculating collisions of the digital equivalent of Legos every frame.
And then you're at a point where you not only have to deal with these file formats and implement the community's wishes regarding them, you also have to maintain and debug the parsers, making sure they remain Westwood-compliant.
The alternative, of course, would be entering one of the existing open source engines cloning the earlier games and expanding them to be YR-compatible, but then you're doing the same thing and have to deal with someone else's codebase and a different community who might have different goals or needs than the one we're in. Which means you need to fork, which means you're now dealing with modding someone else's engine again, only this time it's not Westwood's and you have the source.
So yeah. tl;dr: It's less a technical issue, it's more one of investing twice the work to get the same insanity.
Reverse engineering is certainly eyed suspiciously as a way of stealing your algorithms, but in this context, you're usually not copying code but analysing the way file formats are parsed and how the game reacts under certain conditions.
e.g. you wouldn't go ahead and copy Westwood's MIX parser, you'd go and check what bytes 3 to 6 in the MIX header mean, so you can implement your own.
Yes, when used the way you describe, it's illegal (and immoral). But ultimately...would you really want to copy Westwood's code?
¹ It's ztyping could not care less, you moron. "could care less" makes no sense as an idiom. If you could care less, you have to care in the first place, which is the exact opposite of what you're trying to convey. _________________ #renproj:renegadeprojects.com via Matrix - direct link QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 18 Jun 2005 Location: Dordrecht, the Netherlands
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:35 pm Post subject:
Well, if my honest advice is being ignored, I'll leave this discussion to rot in hell. Have fun gents, you won't see me in this topic anymore QUICK_EDIT
People need to stop moaning, whining, bitching and crying and just be thankful Ares even exists!
THIS QFT
I would love to have even a quarter of the attention placed on ra2 into ra3 expanding. Even something on a npatch level would be helpful, let alone the game changineness of ares. _________________ I am Zengar Zombolt, The Sword That Cleaves Evil! There is Nothing I can not Cut! QUICK_EDIT
I feel like this is a giant circle jerk...
Still, expect to much from a dead community won't lead to much. The sad sad truth is that the CnC community is near its end and we all have to sit here and let it happen. No way to stop it from ending. Some will stay and others won't. Simple as that.
2 cents added, don't expect me to reply to this. You may notice I don't really stick around. QUICK_EDIT
Also Known As: banshee_revora (Steam) Joined: 15 Aug 2002 Location: Brazil
Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:18 am Post subject:
hotrods20 wrote:
The sad sad truth is that the CnC community is near its end and we all have to sit here and let it happen. No way to stop it from ending. Some will stay and others won't. Simple as that.
2 cents added, don't expect me to reply to this. You may notice I don't really stick around.
I've been hearing truths of the cnc community apocalypse since the creation of PPM back in 2000. I'm still waiting for it anxiously. QUICK_EDIT
I'm quite old now and don't play games very much but I intend to rebuild the C&C games from scratch someday, not just hack and modify them. If I don't play games very much anymore it's probably because those games have gotten old to me and not because I'm getting old. I'll probably get fully back into gaming again when the technology jumps again which will probably happen when the next Xbox and Playstation are released.
Wow I presume that would be a massive and time consuming undertaking. How long would it take to rebuild one of them roughly? _________________ QUICK_EDIT
One person, it would take forever, a group of people, perhaps 4 to 8 years. Large team employed to do it. perhaps 3 years.
Give or take. The time does not come from the engine core like the LCW, SHA and BlowfishEngines, or the FileClasses, but more the fact of the games logics. TS has way over 9,000 functions of code just for game logic. QUICK_EDIT
You cannot post new topics in this forum You can reply to topics in this forum You can edit your posts in this forum You can delete your posts in this forum You can vote in polls in this forum You can attach files in this forum You can download files in this forum
I'm all up for people making Mods for the newer versions so don't take it the wrong way.
The upcoming F2P C&C being an exception (Frostbite looks amazing graphically).
