More coders is not needed. I used to work with AlexB and I can tell that he is really fast. He could add loads of features in a short period. The reason he do not do it is because the lack of testing.
The fact that Ren and DCoder have left is not the end of Ares, AlexB can keep it flowing but need testers first!
I personally will try tracking down those REs this week. QUICK_EDIT
And write the worst messiest bug report ever witnessed since the dawn of man. :p
Just make sure you add them to the bug tracker https://bugs.launchpad.net/ares
as opposed to writing up a report or the likes _________________ QUICK_EDIT
ViPr: If you have time to do that, go ahead. RA has about 4800 functions, YR has about 18500 functions. OpenRA is in development since 2007. Using cross-multiplication you can estimate when the first results can be expected. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Recently I've asked Google for "isometric","2d","engine" and it gave me some results I've liked. Some of them are freeware, some open sourced. And people doing stuff on them (jRPG mostly). So I asked about posibility and expediency of creating YR replica. _________________ Gangster is a Project Perfect Wuj (c)Aro QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:48 am Post subject:
I didn't google about it, but...
The engine is not 2D. It is isometric, yes, but voxels, positions and leptons are calculated in 3D. How I know, jRPGs does not need such data at all, since they use a board to move on. QUICK_EDIT
if you ask about new engine why dont just edit on OpenRa, isn't it open source? all it need is huge optimize but it still the best 2d rts engine i ever seen.
if you want make isomatric maybe just use fake iso like starcraft.
but well... all your problem about new engine here is only voxel support, i just wonder why we need voxel if real 3d model can do better job and if we want 2d game just work on real 2d graphic. QUICK_EDIT
The looks of the YR engine is fine imo. It whats make YR, YR.
Dehardcoding stuff and some lag reduction is all we(?) need. _________________ "I'll be staying strapped cuse my mac-eleven make my nuts bigger" QUICK_EDIT
Not that I am looking a new engine, don't get me wrong, i like YR. It's just I have tired of it's limitations. Well, all of us have, but my claims are very specific and I am not hoping they will be satisfied. People usually start mods to improve sides they play, or bring a balance, or change a whole concept of the game. For me as being a designer, modding is an ability to improve my skills while playing. I like to do a fancy stuff. And this is where problems usually comes.
I tired of pallete limitations. Actually pallete itself already a limit, I have to apply custom ones for every time i put new set of objects, (omg, how dare I to colour them differently).
Editing a terrain is pain in ass (oh, you want add some tiberium elements? okay but, please, cut some bluish and yellowish colour and re-apply this new pallete to all TMP you did before. Oh, your water tiles now looks like shit, sorry.)
Tired of lags caused by transparency and amount of sprites on screen. Tired of creating mind-blowing constructions (animation that start animations that triggers warhead that start animation that spawn particles...) just to create nice looking effect (which most likely will either lag, either give IE).
So yeah, each time I hear about creation\re-creation\advancing YR engine I cross my fingers for luck. _________________ Gangster is a Project Perfect Wuj (c)Aro QUICK_EDIT
Not that I am looking a new engine, don't get me wrong, i like YR. It's just I have tired of it's limitations. Well, all of us have, but my claims are very specific and I am not hoping they will be satisfied. People usually start mods to improve sides they play, or bring a balance, or change a whole concept of the game. For me as being a designer, modding is an ability to improve my skills while playing. I like to do a fancy stuff. And this is where problems usually comes.
I tired of pallete limitations. Actually pallete itself already a limit, I have to apply custom ones for every time i put new set of objects, (omg, how dare I to colour them differently).
Editing a terrain is pain in ass (oh, you want add some tiberium elements? okay but, please, cut some bluish and yellowish colour and re-apply this new pallete to all TMP you did before. Oh, your water tiles now looks like shit, sorry.)
Tired of lags caused by transparency and amount of sprites on screen. Tired of creating mind-blowing constructions (animation that start animations that triggers warhead that start animation that spawn particles...) just to create nice looking effect (which most likely will either lag, either give IE).
So yeah, each time I hear about creation\re-creation\advancing YR engine I cross my fingers for luck.
Everything the Russian has said so far. Though to add my own two cents, some of this testing appears to have been stagnated itself by Ares staff - I do not mean to sound ungreatful or disrespectful - Ares is a wonderful tool and respect should be given to the people who use it - but this also presents the double handed sword of PR.
To explain better, Mental Omega has (What I've come to call) the "super secret Ares build not available to the testers". While it's true that a lot of 0.2 is out, some things MO can do can't be recreated in (for example) Colony Wars due to some components of Ares not being released (not even for testing) to other mods using Ares, or test builds of Ares (Attach.Effect is one such ability, though I'm willing to bet there are others).
I don't mean to sound like I'm whining, but the point I am trying to make is - for people who are testing Ares, shouldn't we all be on the same page when it comes to this stuff?
...This is going to drag in so much hate mail -_- QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:07 pm Post subject:
The supersecret-not-available thingie kept as MO exclusive so far is AttachEffect. And even that isn't 100% correct. Why?
Because it was Speed who encouraged me to try coding this thing. It was also Speed who tested the most, both when I started and both now. Meanwhile half of the community just waited the release to grab. Or not even waited that out.
Also, FYI, Speed is our promo material creator and I wanted to use AE as bait to encourage testing. After 0.2, you'll have AE... seems it had no encouragement.
I have nothing against you, Shockwave, but tbh, I coded AE for MO. There is one other feature, FactoryOwners... actually, both are available. Not as binary, but as sources. gd03 branch for FO, ft-attacheffect for AE. Download the source and compile. FO even has documentation as blueprint since it was exactly today when I finished that logic to work 100% exactly like how I wrote close a year ago.
I consider AE and FO my assets, just like a voxel in TI. You can ask for it, but you might not get it. And I have decided it ages ago that since that two are aimed for 0.3 AFTER 0.2 is out, I'll upload them to publicly available, but only then. So far that hasn't happened yet.
I don't ask out your musician's songs, neither.
But those are coded by me and even Speed decided to NOT use them for 0.2 progress. MO uses FatMan for months now to speed up the release process. QUICK_EDIT
@Sir Shockwave:
So let me get this straight...
The MO team decided to base its mod on an in-development, post-0.2 branch that is not currently the development focus.
The MO team decided to not release its mod with that branch's binary.
And yet, the MO team's decision to use some weird-ass dev branch instead of stable/RC and its decision not to release with that branch are somehow...the Ares team's fault?
You're asking "for people who are testing Ares, shouldn't we all be on the same page when it comes to this stuff?"
That's a pretty good question. Why don't you answer it?
MO most certainly wasn't forced by the Ares devs to distance itself from everyone else¹. So why isn't everyone on the same page? Which faction made a decision that caused itself to get out of sync here?
It is this shit exactly I mean when I talk about the community's attitude. How are MO's decisions not to accept and support the status quo the Ares team's fault?
What stops the MO team from going ahead and asking their players to invest some time to test Ares's RC, so the goddamn thing can finally be finished and those weird-ass dev branches become the primary development and testing focus?
There is nothing in the world forcing MO to use that particular build, and there is nothing in the world preventing MO from helping develop other builds.
If the MO team truly wanted to help test and support stock Ares, it could go right ahead and do so. It could put itself on the same page as everyone else.
It is their decision to refuse to do so.
It is their decision to say "no, stock Ares isn't good enough for us, we want our special friend to make us a custom build".
If you want everyone to be on the same page, stop rushing ahead and use stock Ares. If you refuse to follow normal development and testing, that's your decision, and you're the one creating sync issues with everyone else.
You could have everyone on the same page.
You could have Ares 0.2 released.
You could have all those additional features in the current development branches.
All you'd have to do is what we've been requesting for one and a half years: Test Ares.
But no. That's too difficult. Not fancy enough. It would require you to go back to the mere stock version of Ares, the plebeian Ares, and -yuck- actually invest some work to get the product you want. The horror!
Seriously...it's the same situation as always: If you want Ares to go faster, stop dicking around and start testing.
As long as you spend your time bitching about your own bad decisions instead, you have only yourself to blame.
Note: This post addresses Shockwave's personal understanding of The Complicated World of Ares Testing. This does not mean that Shockwave's world and reality match up. (As is the case for about 99.5% of all Ares-development related discussions by the community...but hey, I've addressed the topic of actually going ahead and informing yourself as well in the past. )
Pretty much the only Mod Exclusive Mental Omega is AttachEffect
I'm fine with not having AE right now if it means getting Ares to 0.2 .The Colony is far from ready and most of my usage for AE right now is gimmicks. And I have far much bigger stuff to worry about before I can expand on using AE. _________________ ~ Excelsior ~ QUICK_EDIT
Pretty much the only Mod Exclusive Mental Omega is AttachEffect
I'm fine with not having AE right now if it means getting Ares to 0.2 .The Colony is far from ready and most of my usage for AE right now is gimmicks. And I have far much bigger stuff to worry about before I can expand on using AE.
Same here, to be completely honest.
Graion Dilach wrote:
The supersecret-not-available thingie kept as MO exclusive so far is AttachEffect. And even that isn't 100% correct. Why?
Because it was Speed who encouraged me to try coding this thing. It was also Speed who tested the most, both when I started and both now. Meanwhile half of the community just waited the release to grab. Or not even waited that out.
Also, FYI, Speed is our promo material creator and I wanted to use AE as bait to encourage testing. After 0.2, you'll have AE... seems it had no encouragement.
I have nothing against you, Shockwave, but tbh, I coded AE for MO. There is one other feature, FactoryOwners... actually, both are available. Not as binary, but as sources. gd03 branch for FO, ft-attacheffect for AE. Download the source and compile. FO even has documentation as blueprint since it was exactly today when I finished that logic to work 100% exactly like how I wrote close a year ago.
I consider AE and FO my assets, just like a voxel in TI. You can ask for it, but you might not get it. And I have decided it ages ago that since that two are aimed for 0.3 AFTER 0.2 is out, I'll upload them to publicly available, but only then. So far that hasn't happened yet.
I don't ask out your musician's songs, neither.
But those are coded by me and even Speed decided to NOT use them for 0.2 progress. MO uses FatMan for months now to speed up the release process.
I'm not saying you have anything against me, and I apologize profusely if you took offense to my comment. I didn't even know until this point that it was exclusively coded for MO. However, I think as I'm *trying* to state above, I do know these things take time. However, I do question the idea of testing multiple different builds of 0.2 when there's only going to be a single version of 0.2 at release (or there would have been a single version of 0.2 at release).
That's really all I was trying to point out Dilach. Maybe there is a reason from a Developer's perspective for it that I am not aware of. This is most likely the case, and if that makes me a complete idiot or "delusional" for not knowing what that is, then yes I accept that either my brain cells are dying off early, or we really are just dumber than we thought.
(Edited because I missed Dilach's post) QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:31 am Post subject:
I'm just tired telling everyone that yes, AE will hit 0.3, yes, it will be a part of Ares, yes, I'll personally make sure that AE will be out after 0.2. And yes, Speed has it because he filled the tracker with issues.
But still, 0.2 is WIP for more than enough time to make me doubting the above... even if I promised it already. The gain would be for the community to get AE if they support Ares, but it does NOT changed anything. At all.
Oh wait, it was called workaround once and everyone just wants it. Greed is everywhere. And I hate greedy ones. But heck, the project I work for wouldn't benefit, then to hell with those greedy. QUICK_EDIT
Just got the news that DCoder quit, terrible shame this.
However, I'm surprised Ares went on for that long (well, if you want to count the past year or for whatever time 0.2 has been in a "testing phase" that doesn't seem to happen). After all, back in 2008 already, the lack of modders was one reason for me to quit the project.
Well, here we go, another rant of mine that'll make some people rage.
I know most of the Ares guys disagree, especially Renegade, but I still believe the project got over-organized for its "size" (as in size of its target audience) and that my former RockPatch "release cycle" (if you wanna call it one) probably suited it better. I never had problems with a lack of testers back then - quite frankly cause there were no testing phases and every mod using the next official release was a tester. No question that it's horrible project management. Features didn't work, the game crashed randomly - but the fun fact is that it worked out and the thing gained immense popularity. (btw, I did the same with my RPG mod for a UT2004 server, same kind of success story).
There was never a problem with getting stuck in a development phase because there were no development phases. Code, commit, release. Those who care will find what's wrong. The developer/user relationship was the other way round: I did not depend on people testing my stuff so I can continue working - the people depended on me when something was broken and it needed fixing so they can continue working.
RockPatch wasn't a service that had to maintain a quality standard, I did it for my own entertainment.
As stupid as that old "project management" of mine might sound and how impracticable it might be for probably any software project - I really suggest to go back to it if Ares is supposed to see another day. I've not been watching this closely enough to be able to judge every detail, but what I've seen is a downward spiral and the fact that there's only one guy left confirms it for me.
tl;dr
Don't let the project die because of bullshit. And yes, now I am being polemic.
AlexB, if you're the last guy left, I hope you'll eventually stop giving a ztype and release Ares 0.2 SUPER SECRET AUTUMN EDITION or whatever VK would come up with at this point. Pick stuff from the bugtracker you like and implement it, then push the next release whenever the hell you feel like. QUICK_EDIT
Just don't stress yourself over coding. If you keep stressing yourself over trying to impress everyone you won't get anywhere. Remember the saying of "You can't please everyone" . _________________ ~ Excelsior ~ QUICK_EDIT
I agree with pd, however that should already have started now that 0.2 is available to everyone and more mods are being released that use 0.2.
As soon as it and future versions become openly released the more "players" it will get that will report issues to the modders. It's likely way more effective than expecting to have a team of modders testing specific features that they may not even use when they'd rather be working on their own mods, even if that would result in a better quality "product" (which this really isn't). QUICK_EDIT
There was never a problem with getting stuck in a development phase because there were no development phases. Code, commit, release. Those who care will find what's wrong. The developer/user relationship was the other way round: I did not depend on people testing my stuff so I can continue working - the people depended on me when something was broken and it needed fixing so they can continue working.
If you guys could just work like the quote of pd, you can speed things up significantly. Work on things, release it, when something is wrong people will tell you about once they come across it. Don't wait for people to test things and then release, as you can see that didn't work out very well the last few years.
If you just let people know that is the way you work, they will understand it. And if they don't well, kindly refer them to NPatchExt. _________________
I agree with pd for the most parts. Ares is striving for perfection and it hasn't worked out well.
Maybe its time to try an other approach for Ares development, like pd did with Rockpatch? If its not working, it is not the end of the world. Ares team(AlexB) could easily go back to hes old way. _________________ "I'll be staying strapped cuse my mac-eleven make my nuts bigger" QUICK_EDIT
I agree with pd, thouh I think the original approach would have come to a dead end some time ago because of the sheer size of the project. I haven't actually measured how many lines of code Ares 0.1 had compared to 0.2, but the growth is immense.
Because I'm bogged down by personal/family stuff at the moment, I have yet to make an announcement of my plans. But rest assured that I plan to release 0.2 as quickly as possible. I want to fix at least one more bug (related to powered units) and at least investigate the ones that came in the last few days. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
I'm just tired telling everyone that yes, AE will hit 0.3, yes, it will be a part of Ares, yes, I'll personally make sure that AE will be out after 0.2. And yes, Speed has it because he filled the tracker with issues.
But still, 0.2 is WIP for more than enough time to make me doubting the above... even if I promised it already. The gain would be for the community to get AE if they support Ares, but it does NOT changed anything. At all.
Oh wait, it was called workaround once and everyone just wants it. Greed is everywhere. And I hate greedy ones. But heck, the project I work for wouldn't benefit, then to hell with those greedy.
And I do not mean to add to your woes at all, and I can understand your position. My opinion was very much misinformed, and for that I can only apologize, and wish I could do more.
I will at least continue to Bugtrack for 0.2, and log anything I find in the Bugtracker for what it's worth.
pd wrote:
Just got the news that DCoder quit, terrible shame this.
However, I'm surprised Ares went on for that long (well, if you want to count the past year or for whatever time 0.2 has been in a "testing phase" that doesn't seem to happen). After all, back in 2008 already, the lack of modders was one reason for me to quit the project.
Well, here we go, another rant of mine that'll make some people rage.
I know most of the Ares guys disagree, especially Renegade, but I still believe the project got over-organized for its "size" (as in size of its target audience) and that my former RockPatch "release cycle" (if you wanna call it one) probably suited it better. I never had problems with a lack of testers back then - quite frankly cause there were no testing phases and every mod using the next official release was a tester. No question that it's horrible project management. Features didn't work, the game crashed randomly - but the fun fact is that it worked out and the thing gained immense popularity. (btw, I did the same with my RPG mod for a UT2004 server, same kind of success story).
There was never a problem with getting stuck in a development phase because there were no development phases. Code, commit, release. Those who care will find what's wrong. The developer/user relationship was the other way round: I did not depend on people testing my stuff so I can continue working - the people depended on me when something was broken and it needed fixing so they can continue working.
RockPatch wasn't a service that had to maintain a quality standard, I did it for my own entertainment.
As stupid as that old "project management" of mine might sound and how impracticable it might be for probably any software project - I really suggest to go back to it if Ares is supposed to see another day. I've not been watching this closely enough to be able to judge every detail, but what I've seen is a downward spiral and the fact that there's only one guy left confirms it for me.
tl;dr
Don't let the project die because of bullshit. And yes, now I am being polemic.
AlexB, if you're the last guy left, I hope you'll eventually stop giving a ztype and release Ares 0.2 SUPER SECRET AUTUMN EDITION or whatever VK would come up with at this point. Pick stuff from the bugtracker you like and implement it, then push the next release whenever the hell you feel like.
This man has the right idea - I'm all for releasing something when it's done and not before. Also, interesting story. QUICK_EDIT
I agree with pd, thouh I think the original approach would have come to a dead end some time ago because of the sheer size of the project. I haven't actually measured how many lines of code Ares 0.1 had compared to 0.2, but the growth is immense.
Yep, the Ares code quickly grew over my own head once I had that whole DLL thing running stable. DCoder would start working on the Techno extension mechanism and BOOM, suddenly the thing was full of stuff. Not that it's a bad thing.
Quite frankly, I haven't looked at Ares code much ever since I left. But you do have the luxury of version management (I tell ya, assembly sucked), so I believe you can handle it whatever size it grows to.
AlexB wrote:
Because I'm bogged down by personal/family stuff at the moment, I have yet to make an announcement of my plans. But rest assured that I plan to release 0.2 as quickly as possible. I want to fix at least one more bug (related to powered units) and at least investigate the ones that came in the last few days.
I hope for the best - concerning both your personal issues and the future of Ares! QUICK_EDIT
@pd: Could you explain where you see the over-organization? People keep throwing that phrase around, yet no one ever explains what part was more organized than necessary.
I originally had a longer paragraph here regarding the difference in development of the projects, but you admit as much in your follow-up:
pd wrote:
Yep, the Ares code quickly grew over my own head once I had that whole DLL thing running stable. DCoder would start working on the Techno extension mechanism and BOOM, suddenly the thing was full of stuff. Not that it's a bad thing.
Ares is different. Ares is bigger. It requires different, bigger organization. I don't think you'll contest that.
So what part, in particular, do you consider over-organized?
OmegaBolt wrote:
[...]
As soon as it and future versions become openly released the more "players" it will get that will report issues to the modders. It's likely way more effective than expecting to have a team of modders testing specific features that they may not even use when they'd rather be working on their own mods, even if that would result in a better quality "product" (which this really isn't).
Yes, we've heard this bullshit-argument for years. We've conclusively proven it incorrect this spring, when we started officially supporting and providing an easy interface to download the latest, bleeding edge binaries...
...and no one gave a shit.
The latest versions of Ares are as accessible as they can be. There's even a link in the navigation bar on the official site. And the project didn't get a single byte of additional feedback.
One would think, at some point, people would grasp the whole "more release = more testers" equation is a myth.
RP wrote:
If you guys could just work like the quote of pd, you can speed things up significantly. Work on things, release it, when something is wrong people will tell you about once they come across it. Don't wait for people to test things and then release, as you can see that didn't work out very well the last few years.
If you just let people know that is the way you work, they will understand it. And if they don't well, kindly refer them to NPatchExt.
If people are fine with using unstable builds, where's the issue? They could all go ahead and download one the of various unstable builds and do exactly as you said.
And yet, no one does.
The problem has never been accessibility. Even back when we were doing "closed" tests, the binaries had significant circulation beyond the so-called testers, and were never really hidden.
I've said this above as well...this whole "more availability = more testing" shit is a myth.
The reality is that, instead of going ahead and reporting a crash, people just resign and quietly bitch about a given program being unstable. Because the alternative would require work.
ArvinCool wrote:
I agree with pd for the most parts. Ares is striving for perfection and it hasn't worked out well [...]
Another stellar example of the kind of blatant misinformation being spread by the ignorant, thanks to the constant refusal to do something as basic as reading news or otherwise informing yourself before speaking.
Had you actually cared, had you actually informed yourself in the past few years, you would know that we started with slightly above average expectations, and they've only sunk month after month.
This spring, expectations were at the point of "if no major bug appears, we release"...but what do you know? Despite the irrational bullshit the ARES IS STABLE!!11!1!!oneeleven crowd spouts, Ares, actually, wasn't stable, and the more people like Speeder actually invested time to test it, the more it became apparent that it, in fact, still had some gaping holes.
Something we could've found out and fixed a year ago...had the community cared enough to test a little bit.
So yeah...ztype you with this "Ares strives for perfection" bullshit. It has never been true. It's just another cheap excuse by the community to justify their lack of support.
Replies like this are the reason I originally ignored this thread...there's little in this thread that hasn't already been said and rebutted multiple times in the past, and yet, thanks to the community's refusal to interact with Ares, it keeps getting repeated.
I can only wonder what a difference it would've made had you people actually read one of our news posts every once in a while, and known what was going on. _________________ #renproj:renegadeprojects.com via Matrix - direct link QUICK_EDIT
See, some bugs. According to you, Ares is stable when every single bug in the entire project is eliminated. That would require a huge team of testers working 24 7 for years. This engine is old and buggy and they are always going to exist, you cant avoid them. Most of us have accepted them, its a part of YR(stupid thing to say, but true). _________________ "I'll be staying strapped cuse my mac-eleven make my nuts bigger" QUICK_EDIT
See, some bugs. According to you, Ares is stable when every single bug in the entire project is eliminated. That would require a huge team of testers working 24 7 for years. This engine is old and buggy and they are always going to exist, you cant avoid them. Most of us have accepted them, its a part of YR(stupid thing to say, but true).
No you ztyping moron, I did not say "some bugs", I said "(some) (gaping holes)".
The point being that there are bugs of differing severity, and the community's utter lack of interest had ruined morale to the point where we just wanted to fix the most major remaining issues and then kick that POS out of the door¹.
But even that turned out impossible, because the lack of testing had left some major bugs still lurking under the surface undiscovered - by the time one major issue was fixed, two more had popped up. Again, had we had enough testers to quickly determine the cause of these issues, it would've been manageable, but...we didn't. Because the community doesn't care enough.
By the way, if this is your level of reading comprehension ("big equals small, hurr durp"), it's no wonder the community never grasped Ares.
¹And just in case your brain doesn't allow you to properly parse this, I will spell this out in easy terms for you as well:
Just because the plan before was to also fix small bugs, that does not mean the plan was to fix all bugs.
Because, believe it or not, all three of us know enough about software development to know it's ztyping impossible to write bug-free software. _________________ #renproj:renegadeprojects.com via Matrix - direct link QUICK_EDIT
Yes, we've heard this bullshit-argument for years. We've conclusively proven it incorrect this spring, when we started officially supporting and providing an easy interface to download the latest, bleeding edge binaries...
...and no one gave a shit.
The latest versions of Ares are as accessible as they can be. There's even a link in the navigation bar on the official site. And the project didn't get a single byte of additional feedback.
There's a difference between that big fat "DOWNLOAD ARES" button that points to 0.1 and the small text link to "Unstable Builds". Despite the fact that you probably did proper announcements, "unstable build" is a term that awakes an inherent mistrust and definitely can't be compared to any kind of "release". I'm perfectly aware that saying anything other than "unstable" would probably be a lie, but IMO this is an example of the strive for perfection and correctness that I (and apparently not only me) see, which again is part of what I use this mysterious term of over-organization for.
There are plenty of open source community-based projects out there that use exactly this type of release system. More or less frequent stable releases and daily so-called "unstable builds" (which is really just being careful, in most cases things are working fine). The Minecraft server mod "CraftBukkit" would be a proof of concept here, it uses this system and works perfectly.
Alas, I'm not saying that you should have never tried this kind of release system. There are plenty of success stories out there that suggest that it's a great way and today's social coding platforms make it easy to set up. I'm not even saying it's bad. I'm saying that it's just not suitable for an audience as small as it is. It's too much, it's over-organized for the actual needs. You noticed over a year ago, if not much earlier (IIRC you had similar problems before Ares 0.1), that this doesn't really work out because there are too few people who give a damn.
"Giving a damn" included the readiness of getting an "unstable build" and testing features - like OmegaBolt mentioned - that you might not even be using in any of your projects and don't even care for (which makes testing quality questionnable). All this was made even harder by maintaining a restricted list of testers (part of the over-organization in my eyes, but that has been lifted if I see that right). That might work if you have thousands of people literally drooling to get on the tester's list, but it's not that way now is it?
You brought up the argument before that people signed up for testing and then never lifted a finger. While on the one hand I agree that it's awful by those people, on the other hand you gotta see the obvious: the most likely reason to sign up for testing was to get the latest build easily and use it for their own. Weren't there leaked versions even? Are people to blame? You blame MO to base their mod off unreleased Ares features, but is MO to blame?
At such a point, all bells should be ringing, indicating that something should be done differently. But the first thing I saw always done was blaming people and telling them to ztype off.
You ended up lifting the restricted testers list and doing public unstable build releases, but now you get offered six different branches on the unstable build download page. There's no dates or anything that would tell me which is the latest (my guess is that they're all nightlies, but you can't really tell). People who don't know what branching means (and those are probably many amongst the C&C modders) will have no clue what's going on. Especially when there are two different branches for abductor stuff and a funny 0.3 link that shouldn't be touched ("hey, I'm the mysterious red button - don't press me!"). To get any clue what branch does what, cause of the lack of a changelog or something, I'll have to go the bugtracker and search for build 2374265.273.47264c. What? Exactly.
There are maybe 100 modders out there that care for Ares. Very, very rough guess (in fact, I have no clue). A small, hidden link to "unstable builds" awakens mistrust if you even happen to find it and know what it means (it's not like it invites you to go ahead and try it). A page offering 6 "releases" with different versions with 3 ore more digits in their minor version number but no date or a change-log, of which one is not supposed to be used, two are both labeled for abductor testing, three contain "various fixes" or "more graphics" in their descriptions.
As a potential tester passing by and seeing that, my reaction would be one of:
wat (/goes back and doesn't care until next official release, maybe continues to use NPatch 2012 end of the world edition)
I'll go to the forum to get info on the single branches - nothing. Let's go to LaunchPad, text-search every single page for "various-fixes" to find out what the hell it means - nada. Eventually made it to github where I happen to find a branch named "various-fixes". At this point I have to be somebody who has an idea of version control and git and software development in general. Chances I even got here aren't too high. I'll just throw a dice to determine which of the 6 I use and I still have no idea what I'm going to test.
Unlearn all English, name myself "ra2free" and ask stupid questions on the forum.
Now take the few people that there are (my rough guess was 100) and figure how many there will be trying to get the proper unstable build using all possible sources and test things they don't give a flying crap about. Zero? At least that might explain why this "easiliy accessible bleeding edge build" stuff doesn't work out for you.
I hate saying this in general - I'm really not somebody to say this - but "do it like me", like the old release threads. Link to "DOWNLOAD LATEST VERSION", list of changes below. If you do branching, which is a great tool, decide on some kind of baseline that you use for frequent releases which you merge stuff into. Plan and organize releases less (releases, not code), just push them.
If the doc isn't up to date, well screw that. That huge doc is another example for the attempted "perfection" in my eyes. Give a good and short description in the change-log (pro-tip: if you do more frequent releases it isn't that long) and maybe build a more detailed documentation later if (and only if) necessary. The wiki is a perfect platform for that, no need to pack up a huge JavaScript-powered HTML page or even an oldschool CHM file like I did back then. QUICK_EDIT
I used to mod Yuris Revenge when Rockpatch was active. There were some bugs, but I was fine with that because they were always fixed in the next version. QUICK_EDIT
There's a difference between that big fat "DOWNLOAD ARES" button that points to 0.1 and the small text link to "Unstable Builds". Despite the fact that you probably did proper announcements, "unstable build" is a term that awakes an inherent mistrust and definitely can't be compared to any kind of "release". I'm perfectly aware that saying anything other than "unstable" would probably be a lie, but IMO this is an example of the strive for perfection and correctness that I (and apparently not only me) see, which again is part of what I use this mysterious term of over-organization for.
So on the one hand, you admit that this is the proper way of handling it and that anything else would be dishonest, yet on the other hand you still declare it "over-organization"? Not just that, but you consider the honest statement of fact of "this shit ain't stable yet" a "strive for perfection"?
You do realize pretty much every open source project on the planet releases unstable builds, right?
That's a whole shitload of perfection being dreamed of...
Independent from the fact that I don't quite see the logic in your argumentation, more importantly, I also don't see where organization of any kind comes into play.
How big the download button for the respective version is is a web-design/layout question. It is entirely independent from Ares's organization as a project. I could make the unstable link three times bigger than the stable one, Ares's organization would be exactly the same.
Same goes for the unstable builds. We could call them "previews" "development builds" "pre-release builds" or go with the Linux kernel's even/uneven version number distinction: Save for a loss of clarity, nothing would change. Ares's organization would be the same.
So how does either of these cosmetic issues constitute "over-organization"?
pd wrote:
There are plenty of open source community-based projects out there that use exactly this type of release system. More or less frequent stable releases and daily so-called "unstable builds" (which is really just being careful, in most cases things are working fine). The Minecraft server mod "CraftBukkit" would be a proof of concept here, it uses this system and works perfectly.
Exactly. So how does using a tried-and-true, common release pattern constitute "over-organization"?
pd wrote:
Alas, I'm not saying that you should have never tried this kind of release system. There are plenty of success stories out there that suggest that it's a great way and today's social coding platforms make it easy to set up. I'm not even saying it's bad. I'm saying that it's just not suitable for an audience as small as it is. It's too much, it's over-organized for the actual needs.
No, you are not, in fact, saying that.
So far, you have talked about release linking, release naming, and the fact that other projects use the same kind of release system successfully. You have yet to explain how this particular system of release is unsuitable for small audiences.
How, exactly, do, in your opinion, the needs of a small target audience require the use of a different release system?
pd wrote:
You noticed over a year ago, if not much earlier (IIRC you had similar problems before Ares 0.1), that this doesn't really work out because there are too few people who give a damn.
"Giving a damn" included the readiness of getting an "unstable build" and testing features - like OmegaBolt mentioned - that you might not even be using in any of your projects and don't even care for (which makes testing quality questionnable).
Meeeeep.
Wrong.
Just plain wrong. False argumentation.
You are mixing the topics of release system, overall target audience size and testing unstable builds.
The fact that people don't care enough to test the project does not, in turn, mean that the release system is ill-suited for the remnants of this community. You might argue that it's ill-suited for generating the motivation to test (which I think you're trying to do next), but that's an entirely different thing.
If you want to argue that our release system is to be blamed for a reduced willingness to test, don't argue that our release system is unsuitable for this community(-size).
It's just not the same thing.
pd wrote:
All this was made even harder by maintaining a restricted list of testers (part of the over-organization in my eyes, but that has been lifted if I see that right). That might work if you have thousands of people literally drooling to get on the tester's list, but it's not that way now is it?
Alright, now we're getting somewhere. So you consider the mere idea of keeping dedicated testers "over-organization". The alternative, logically, would be VK's way of only making sure Ares starts, releasing a build, and then waiting how many players complain.
Certainly a legitimate software release model.
We've also both seen through the example of NPatch that the community isn't particularly fond of getting broken crap to base their mods on.
So while I acknowledge that you consider even the most basic amounts of quality assurance "over-organization", historic precedence has shown that the target audience appreciates not having their expansion patch constantly blow up in their faces.
pd wrote:
You brought up the argument before that people signed up for testing and then never lifted a finger.
Question here: Just one paragraph above, you implied it was obvious that seeking for testers was a fruitless exercise with this community size, and that people didn't want Ares enough to sign up.
Here, you admit that people did sign up for testing.
...how is that logically consistent?
pd wrote:
While on the one hand I agree that it's awful by those people, on the other hand you gotta see the obvious: the most likely reason to sign up for testing was to get the latest build easily and use it for their own.
Again, so you admit that the exact thing you mocked above as unrealistic for this community size worked just fine? People did sign up because they were "literally drooling to get on the tester's list"?
To be frank, I wouldn't have given a shit if they signed up, used it for their own stuff, and reported back the bugs they encountered.
That is the part that failed.
Not getting people to sign up.
Not getting people to download.
Not getting people to mod.
Getting people to actually provide feedback on their experience.
So...is it a failure in organization if people who said "I will test" didn't do that exact thing?
If I lie to you, is that your fault?
pd wrote:
Weren't there leaked versions even?
Nope, not really.
We tried to contain the public spreading of internal builds, simply because unstable builds weren't easily recognizable back then, but the builds were always easy to find and we never denied that fact.
We just asked people to quietly enjoy their findings instead of pointing an army of n00bs at them.
The introduction of a constant, visible warning turned this into a non-issue.
pd wrote:
Are people to blame?
This goes into the direction of "She was wearing a short skirt, I had no choice but to rape her!".
If somebody was provided a piece of software under the condition he won't leak it, and then he does, then yes, he is very much to blame, no matter how interesting the software might be.
Though since your underlying assumption isn't correct anyway, this point is immaterial to the discussion.
pd wrote:
You blame MO to base their mod off unreleased Ares features, but is MO to blame?
Actually, I'm not.
At all.
All Ares release branches are freely downloadable, usable and embeddable.
Sir Shockwave was complaining about test base fragmentation. And I placed a highlighted note under my response to underline my response was written with the assumption of the correctness of his understanding of the situation, but that that wasn't necessarily given.
In fact, if you go back through our news posts, you will notice that I highlighted MO's devs as the only people we could recently rely on for bug reports. We were quite happy about that. If you read Graion's posts, you'll also see that they, in fact, currently use our standard development branches.
This is what I keep pointing out: People just plain don't invest the effort to properly inform themselves about a situation, and then spout bullshit about the supposed goals, ideals and opinions of Ares's developers.
pd wrote:
At such a point, all bells should be ringing, indicating that something should be done differently.
Correct! And they did, didn't they?
pd wrote:
But the first thing I saw always done was blaming people and telling them to ztype off.
Let us say you go into a restaurant and order a salad.
In the process of eating that salad, you swallow pieces of broken glass.
Would you place the blame on the cook, who put glass fragments into your salad, or on yourself, for being stupid enough to trust a restaurant's cook?
There were two components to that testing systems: Us providing testing builds and the testers testing them. We held up our end of the bargain. So why the ztype would our first and immediate approach on failure be blaming ourselves?
If people assure us they'll test, and then they don't, despite the fact that we gave them everything they needed, then they're to blame. It's as simple as that.
So we tried working with that. We tried exchanging the testers, in hopes to get more reliable ones. We changed the organization of testing, we changed the circumstances of testing.
Ultimately, we had to accept the fact that the vast majority of people volunteering to test were unreliable or dishonest and of no practical value to our debugging process, so we changed our approach.
Since the ever-so-smart community propagated "MORE RELEASE EQUALS MORE TESTERS!!!1!", we abandoned controlled testing and just released the unstable builds publicly, since the community assured us we'd get shitloads of reports that way.
Did I mention the community has no ztyping clue what it's talking about?
So yeah. There was one part in the process that was faulty. We tried fixing that part in various, different ways. When that didn't work, we changed the process.
Sounds like a reasonable approach to me.
Unfortunately, we still have to rely on the community for reports, and the community still doesn't give a shit.
pd wrote:
You ended up lifting the restricted testers list and doing public unstable build releases, but now you get offered six different branches on the unstable build download page. There's no dates or anything that would tell me which is the latest (my guess is that they're all nightlies, but you can't really tell).
Yeah, right.
Except, you know, for the giant version number which concludes the download link and is repeated in the footer of the box.
I would say "it should be obvious that bigger numbers are bigger", but given ArvinCool's inability to understand the difference between "gaping" and "not gaping" earlier, I suppose it's not so obvious to this community.
On the other hand, given that each branch has a description of what it contains, and they're all different, you could just download the one you want, and download it again once your browser stops marking the download link as visited, if version numbers truly are too hard to handle.
pd wrote:
People who don't know what branching means (and those are probably many amongst the C&C modders) will have no clue what's going on.
The fact that they don't understand the underlying development principle prevents them from reading the description and clicking the download link below the one they like best?
I never knew version control was so powerful...
Seriously, at this point, you're just excusing wilful stupidity and learned helplessness.
Even if you're completely confused about what a "branch" is, you can still read "This branch contains all features which are scheduled to be in Ares 0.2." and then click the download link below it.
I guess at this point, you consider the community even more retarded than I do.
pd wrote:
Especially when there are two different branches for abductor stuff and a funny 0.3 link that shouldn't be touched ("hey, I'm the mysterious red button - don't press me!").
Nice try. Unfortunately, I do know that it actually says "Don't touch this unless you know what's going on."
Which is a reasonable request, imo. You also shouldn't download formatting tools or secure deleters if you don't know what you're doing.
Or delete system files because a random mail tells you to.
I'm guessing, at this point, that you'd like to have your cake and eat it, too: "Don't hold the development releases back, but do hold back the ones the community doesn't want. Also, don't tell us what we want or don't want, but still decide what we want."
Seriously.
Either you want access to development builds, or you don't. If you do, don't complain that they're actually in development, and that their current state is based on the needs of development, not on the needs of the end user.
If you want a version that is free of in-development characteristics and geared towards the end-user, download the stable build.
And before you start bitching about that: Pretty much every other open source project offering unstable builds tags it with the same disclaimer, just differently phrased.
Of course we could have created an end-user-focused unstable build. That would have required additional work. How many people volunteered to help the project, again?
Oh, that's right!
None.
pd wrote:
To get any clue what branch does what, cause of the lack of a changelog or something, I'll have to go the bugtracker and search for build 2374265.273.47264c. What? Exactly.
Or, you know, read the title and description of the branch, right above the download link. But that's too much effort to ask for, isn't it?
pd wrote:
There are maybe 100 modders out there that care for Ares. Very, very rough guess (in fact, I have no clue).
I don't think I've seen 100 in the entire time I've done this.
pd wrote:
A small, hidden link to "unstable builds" awakens mistrust if you even happen to find it and know what it means (it's not like it invites you to go ahead and try it).
By that logic, the Ares site's entire navigation is hidden, save for the primary download button.
Given that they're bright links in a dark area, separated by white space, I would say you're full of shit on that one.
The unstable link is just as visible and big as the Bugtracker or FAQ-link.
If you would like to complain about the general navigation link size, go right ahead, I'll listen.
But the fact remains that web design issues do not constitute project over-organization.
(If it wasn't obvious, given that the base of your assumption is bullshit, I don't consider your conclusion valid, either.)
pd wrote:
A page offering 6 "releases" with different versions with 3 ore more digits in their minor version number but no date or a change-log, of which one is not supposed to be used, two are both labeled for abductor testing, three contain "various fixes" or "more graphics" in their descriptions.
As a potential tester passing by and seeing that, my reaction would be one of:
wat (/goes back and doesn't care until next official release, maybe continues to use NPatch 2012 end of the world edition)
I'll go to the forum to get info on the single branches - nothing. Let's go to LaunchPad, text-search every single page for "various-fixes" to find out what the hell it means - nada. Eventually made it to github where I happen to find a branch named "various-fixes". At this point I have to be somebody who has an idea of version control and git and software development in general. Chances I even got here aren't too high. I'll just throw a dice to determine which of the 6 I use and I still have no idea what I'm going to test.
Unlearn all English, name myself "ra2free" and ask stupid questions on the forum.
Then I guess I'm just plain smarter than you.
'cause, you know, my reaction would be:
"don't touch this" - okay
"this is to test interaction between branches" - whatever o_O
"this is to test interaction between branches" - whatever o_O
"this is to test interaction between abductors and carryalls" - and nothing else?
"various minor fixes" - boooooooring
"This branch contains all features which are scheduled to be in Ares 0.2." - now we're talking!
It's really not that hard. There's one branch that the general public could want, it is clearly described, and it's in the top row.
Even a moron could download it.
I know it, because those morons come for support to us afterwards.
In the interest of returning this to a factual discussion: Your assumption of a hypothetical user's potential journey undertaken to figure out the correct branch to download is a theory based on no fact. Other happenings and more intelligence are within the realm of possibilities.
So while I acknowledge that, should somebody be very bored and very stupid, it could go like that, I'm leaning towards "they'll read the first line of 'Fat Man' and just pick that one".
pd wrote:
Now take the few people that there are (my rough guess was 100) and figure how many there will be trying to get the proper unstable build using all possible sources and test things they don't give a flying crap about. Zero?
All possible sources?
Okay.
"I would like to download Ares, weeeee!"
"Oh noes, I'm all confused by the many options!"
*opens MSN* "Hey, what Ares branch do you use?"
'Fat Man'
"Okayz, thank you!"
*downloads*
"I would like to download Ares, weeeee!"
"Oh noes, I'm all confused by the many options!"
*opens thread on PPM* "What Ares branch should I use?"
'Fat Man'
"Okayz, thank you!"
*downloads*
"I would like to download Ares, weeeee!"
"Oh noes, I'm all confused by the many options!"
*goes to RenProj's Ares forum*
*clicks on random thread mentioning unstable builds in its title*
*sees 'Fat Man' mentioned right in the first post*
*downloads*
"I would like to download Ares, weeeee!"
"Oh noes, I'm all confused by the many options!"
*downloads the one with the highest version number*
Again, you seem to consider the community even more retarded than I am.
And, again, I'm sure Alex is all up for a more user-friendly handling of this.
Having the necessary technical background and considering this a problem, do you volunteer to do the necessary additional work?
pd wrote:
At least that might explain why this "easiliy accessible bleeding edge build" stuff doesn't work out for you.
Yeah...or, you know, the fact that we have the exact same situation as before could be an indicator that the community is just plain clueless, and that general availability doesn't do jack shit.
'cause, you know, there is absolutely no evidence your theory of the confused downloader leads to a significant drop of downloads in reality.
It also doesn't take embedded Ares versions in mods into account.
So yeah. In the sense of "this is one possible, purely hypothetical scenario that might explain it", yes, this might explain it.
But given that we gave the community exactly what it demanded, and its reaction to our doings wasn't "omg, this is hard", I'm inclined to believe it's more an issue of people not giving a shit, and those who do are fine picking the branch that says "all features" right there on it.
pd wrote:
I hate saying this in general - I'm really not somebody to say this - but "do it like me", like the old release threads. Link to "DOWNLOAD LATEST VERSION", list of changes below.
Weren't you the one that admitted in this very thread that Ares's complexity pretty much immediately rose far beyond RockPatch's?
You're also going against your very own admission that not labeling unstable release as such would be dishonest. It's not the "latest version". It's the latest build of an in-development version. It could be unusable, it could be broken, it might not even start.
Such is the nature of unstable builds, daily nightlies, development releases, or however you want to call them.
That is the reason we didn't want them as generally available "Ares versions".
So yeah. Your system may have worked alright for a relatively small codebase with few source files and little to no branching.
That's not what Ares is.
We were trying to get to something similar with Ares 0.3, actually. One idea thrown around was to have master be as stable as possible, to only merge features into it when those branches were tested as stable, and then do feature-based releases of master (iow, there'd be a new version of Ares for every major feature completed).
But we could only do such changes if the codebase allows it, that requires a stable state, which requires reaching stability, which requires fixing bugs, which requires finding the cause of those bugs.
Do I need to spell out where this is going?
I sound like a broken record at this point, but had the community cared over the years, had it involved itself, taken part in development purely by being present, it would know of dozens of ideas and concepts for change in various areas we've discussed over the years. It could also have provided its own ideas, and we could've worked something out that'd work for everyone.
But, you know, no one gave a shit.
pd wrote:
If you do branching, which is a great tool, decide on some kind of baseline that you use for frequent releases which you merge stuff into. Plan and organize releases less (releases, not code), just push them.
Oh hey, this looks familiar. Welcome to the past. Do you volunteer to do the necessary testing to achieve necessary stability to maintain a baseline for future releases?
pd wrote:
If the doc isn't up to date, well screw that. That huge doc is another example for the attempted "perfection" in my eyes.
This is about the part where you lost me.
If documenting the features of your software truly constitutes "attempted perfection" to you, then you seem to have a very low standard for perfection.
I mean, even if I didn't want to document it in general, I'd do it over time simply to deflect having to answer the same question of "how to use x" again and again.
Also, the size of the document is relative to the size Ares.
Surprise, it's a big project.
I wonder what group provided the feature requests that led to that...
pd wrote:
Give a good and short description in the change-log (pro-tip: if you do more frequent releases it isn't that long) and maybe build a more detailed documentation later if (and only if) necessary.
How exactly do you think the documentation developed?
The only difference is that we usually don't point the people at a random-ass changelog, we just copy the snippet to the docs as a basis, and link to the feature documentation.
'cause, you know, it's more efficient and easier to use for the end-user. ("Read the Foo docs here [linkage]" vs. "oh, just look at the changelog for version 34343, it's somewhere in the middle of the thread")
pd wrote:
The wiki is a perfect platform for that, no need to pack up a huge JavaScript-powered HTML page or even an oldschool CHM file like I did back then.
...-_-
The documentation is auto-generated from plain text files. It has been for ten months. Each individual page is rather small, and the primary use of JS is for server-independent search. They can even be read just fine directly from the repository, without conversion.
And if you cared enough to follow the project's progress, you'd know that. Just like everyone else. (You will notice a theme here.)
I've already wasted too much time on this response, so I'm not gonna proofread it. If you find typos, you can keep 'em. _________________ #renproj:renegadeprojects.com via Matrix - direct link QUICK_EDIT
Ok someone has too much free time, got about half way through.
Personally I never minded VK's release method. Sure there were bugs, quite a few of them, but the very fact he was working on it and releasing it fairly regularly far outweighed the problem of a few bugs. It only sucked when he left the community and stopped updating it.
From the beginning it seemed like Renegade and co. have wanted to do it one way, while the community has wanted it another and the two have never met in the middle. Of course YR modders everywhere care for and want to use Ares, it can only be a benefit for them however it's hard to be motivated to work for for people who appear to actively disengage themselves from the rest of the community.
Now I've been using Ares for the last two years, working on my mod when I can. I don't have a lot of time or even interest to work on it heavily as it's purely for fun. If I came across any issues I reported them but from my skirmishing in my own mod, using features I want to use, I've not come across many faults (especially the last 8 months or so). I don't have time to test full time, I'd rather work on my own mod. QUICK_EDIT
All of what pd said.
I cared about Ares from the start, but no one really wanted to explain to me how to test it. Maybe a couple lines, but mostly "Just test it like everything else".
I tested the 'latest build?' and came across nothing that hasn't been already reported on the bugtracker, using all the features I could think of, but without an updated manual I can't figure out WHAT exactly needs testing.
Just my two-cents, and I'm sure I'm not alone by reading what Omega said. _________________ "Don't beg for things; Do it yourself or you'll never get anything." QUICK_EDIT
Maybe there's not enough people bothered to test because maybe there's not enough people interested in playing these games anymore because they are so old now. Does anyone have some numbers on downloads of mods or tools. I think my program 3ds2vxl would get downloaded only about 15 times each release version by the way. QUICK_EDIT
Well D-day has been downloaded 6000 times in last three months, MO over 30,000 in the past two years. It's not WoW levels but ppl are still playing RA2... _________________
Backing Up for future asset ripping,etc. or back-ups in general.
Personally I think its just that the RA2/YR Community is a bit smaller now since times do change and most people nowadays prefer modern hi-def bloom-tastic crap. Either way the Community is smaller and very isolated so its hard to communicate with the other branches of the CnC Community.
Another thing I was thinking of for the lack of proper bug testing/reports is as of right now. There isn't much of a proper "USES ALL OF ARES NEW LOGICS" Game Mod so some modders to go out of their way to do bug tests. If a proper Mod was made where players could just drag and drop and do tests I suppose testing would be more easy and thus getting more reports to help the dev team to find the bugs and fix it.
I know my say in all this is pretty much moot. I support Ares wholeheartedly though. This being one of the reasons I started Modding YR since its not as invasive as Npatch which was cumbersome. _________________ ~ Excelsior ~ QUICK_EDIT
All of what pd said.
I cared about Ares from the start, but no one really wanted to explain to me how to test it. Maybe a couple lines, but mostly "Just test it like everything else".
I tested the 'latest build?' and came across nothing that hasn't been already reported on the bugtracker, using all the features I could think of, but without an updated manual I can't figure out WHAT exactly needs testing.
Just my two-cents, and I'm sure I'm not alone by reading what Omega said.
I have had a same thoughts at those days.
No, I actually did few reports, about EMP and AlphaImage, and I tried to be usefull conforming other people's findings. But sometimes testing some new features was blocked.
Another example: after 0.1 i've start having problem with WH SW. Nobody else have but I do. How so? Am I idiot? Should i report?...
Guess what, name of tags have been changes, and no word was mentioned about this in documentation. _________________ Gangster is a Project Perfect Wuj (c)Aro QUICK_EDIT
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