Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:53 pm Post subject:
Mammoth MKII
Subject description: realism issues/questions
I've a small question about the MMKII.
Are the 4 toes on each leg really only connected on the lower leg via a single damper for each toe?
It seems to me that such an approach wouldn't be very stable and robust for such a heavy/big unit.
The toes would also not allow to be tilted along any axis, thus prone to break off on uneven terrain. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
sad that TS doesn't support autocrushing on vehicles too...
IsTrain=yes !?
But yes, something to determine which vehicles are crushable and which not would be nice. Something like a CrushLimit key that takes a double and all units with Weight= lower this value are crushable. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
Also Known As: evanb90 Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Location: o kawaii koto
Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:45 pm Post subject:
What about the armor? Unprotected leg joints, easy to target belly armor and huge top surface area.
In other words...what Orac said. You're not supposed to worry about these things too much. Especially with extravagant designs like walkers/mechs. _________________ YR modder/artist, DOOM mapper, aka evanb90
Project Lead Developer, New-Star Strike (2014-)
Former Project Lead DeveloperStar Strike (2005-2012), Z-Mod (2006-2007), RA1.5 (2008-2013), The Cold War (2006-2007) QUICK_EDIT
Modern tanks: around 50cm-100cm.
This thickness however only around the most important areas like driver cockpit, turret & front. The side protection of the tracks would be more around 10-30cm and the rear engine section also not more than 50-75cm.
Mammoth MKII
Leg armor: around 20cm - 50cm
Joints: 10cm - 30cm (but hardly exposed)
Main chassis: surely nothing below 100cm and up to 250 - 500cm (there aren't any moving/exposed parts which forbid a super strong armor here)
Railguns: 50cm - 100cm
Thus the MMKII would be immune to anything lower than a big armor piercing cannon. Bombs from planes shouldn't be a problem due to the heavy mass of the MMKII and the extreme well armor on top.
Seen from a realistic point, the MMKII would rather get its weapons blown off or damaged, before a leg is severely damaged. Not to speak of the main chassis which would be the last being penetrated and internally damaged.
The big chassis would be surely also equipped with smoke grenades, chaffs, flairs and many other countermeasures for which it also has enough space to carry a lot of ammo with it.
Imo the MMKII is still one great piece of "fuck you" when deployed in combat and i like the concept, even if it has similarities to the ATAT. I even prefer the MMKII design over the ATAT, as the long ATAT legs are much more unrealistic. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
I think the front of a tank can have up to such a thickness, because the front is diagonal and most projectiles hit horizontal thus raising the thickness up to such a high value. The anti-mine protection on the underside of a tank can be extremely thick too and is often an outer strong hull combined with 1 or 2 inner armored hulls. But yes, 1m is really strong and the more common armor would be around 50cm and less.
It's hard to find infos about the classified real armor thickness of tanks. Armor is often measured in cm against kinetic/chemical energy projectiles based on a certain material, while the real armor is thinner due to the use of a much stronger material or the combination of different materials. (e.g. 1m concrete would be similar to 30cm of steel)
If you now look at the MMKII and compare the legs with the guy, it wouldn't be a problem to give the legs an armor as thick as the length of the guys arm. After all the legs don't have to have space for a driver to fit in and the mechanical components can be quite simple. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
Joined: 18 Jun 2005 Location: Dordrecht, the Netherlands
Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:03 pm Post subject:
Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
Modern tanks: around 50mm-100mm.
This thickness however only around the most important areas like driver cockpit, turret & front. The side protection of the tracks would be more around 10-30mm and the rear engine section also not more than 50-75mm.
Mammoth MKII
Leg armor: around 20cm - 50cm
Joints: 10cm - 30cm (but hardly exposed)
Main chassis: surely nothing below 100cm and up to 250 - 500cm (there aren't any moving/exposed parts which forbid a super strong armor here)
Railguns: 50cm - 100cm
Crimmy meant this afaik. No RL tank I know has front armor of 50cm - 1 meter QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 18 Jun 2005 Location: Dordrecht, the Netherlands
Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:36 pm Post subject:
Volgin wrote:
Juggernaut is cooler. suck it, mk2 fans.
The realistic scaled version from the CGI is indeed really cool (and huge as its supposed to be), but I think the Mammoth still takes the cake. Now what if they where combined... QUICK_EDIT
Also Known As: evanb90 Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Location: o kawaii koto
Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:04 am Post subject:
Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
Modern tanks: around 50cm-100cm.
This thickness however only around the most important areas like driver cockpit, turret & front. The side protection of the tracks would be more around 10-30cm and the rear engine section also not more than 50-75cm.
Mammoth MKII
Leg armor: around 20cm - 50cm
Joints: 10cm - 30cm (but hardly exposed)
Main chassis: surely nothing below 100cm and up to 250 - 500cm (there aren't any moving/exposed parts which forbid a super strong armor here)
Railguns: 50cm - 100cm
Your understanding of modern tank protection is somewhat flawed. Side skirts are usually no more than 50mm thick, unless you're referring to hull sides, which probably aren't close to 300mm either way. Rear armor of MBTs is much, much, much thinner than 500-750mm. Estimated frontal protection from APFSDS rounds for many modern MBTs often is in the 500-750mm range.
As for your mech armor values...Yeah no. Armor plate is heavy. Legs can only bear so much weight before they snap like twigs.
Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
The anti-mine protection on the underside of a tank can be extremely thick too and is often an outer strong hull combined with 1 or 2 inner armored hulls. But yes, 1m is really strong and the more common armor would be around 50cm and less.
Belly plates on tanks are not thick at all. They are designed to protect against HE fragmentation and provide structural rigidity. It's not really worth the investment to protect against HEAT warheads.
Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
If you now look at the MMKII and compare the legs with the guy, it wouldn't be a problem to give the legs an armor as thick as the length of the guys arm. After all the legs don't have to have space for a driver to fit in and the mechanical components can be quite simple.
It would be a huge problem. The powerplant for the mech has to lift the legs and move them forward. The components also have to be extremely robust to deal with the mechanic stresses involved. Especially if the chassis is heavily armored.
and Volgin is right. Juggernaut is cooler. _________________ YR modder/artist, DOOM mapper, aka evanb90
Project Lead Developer, New-Star Strike (2014-)
Former Project Lead DeveloperStar Strike (2005-2012), Z-Mod (2006-2007), RA1.5 (2008-2013), The Cold War (2006-2007) QUICK_EDIT
Still sounds to me like the weakest spot on the MMKII would have an armor close to the strongest spot on modern tanks. Thus making the MMKII very robust.
Energy production should be no problem at all. The huge chassis offers enough space to house 2 submarine nuclear reactors. Going with the game fiction, a more modern tiberium based reactor would surely produce enough power for everything.
To compensate the heavy legs, the walking style could be also more realistic and changed into an elephant walking, where always 3 legs are on the ground and only 1 leg is lifted at any point (unlike now where the 2 diagonal opposite legs are lifted at the same time). This would reduce stress to the hull and make the whole unit much more stable.
Dutchygamer wrote:
Volgin wrote:
Juggernaut is cooler. suck it, mk2 fans.
The realistic scaled version from the CGI is indeed really cool (and huge as its supposed to be), but I think the Mammoth still takes the cake. Now what if they where combined...
Still sounds to me like the weakest spot on the MMKII would have an armor close to the strongest spot on modern tanks. Thus making the MMKII very robust.
But it's a mech, so it will always have joints. So it will always have weak spots.
Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
Energy production should be no problem at all. The huge chassis offers enough space to house 2 submarine nuclear reactors.
Weight, complexity, cooling requirements are all issues. A nuclear reactor has an enormous amount of shielding - the pressure vessel of a nuclear reactor is a huge construct which has to be produced in a single piece for strength. Additionally, cooling of a nuclear reactor requires a reasonable amount of coolant. And then there's the fact that the nuclear reaction is used to heat water, produce steam, and spin a standard steam generator, if memory serves. Aaaaaand, then there's the number of crew required to handle it. Even if we assume that in TS much of the complexities of war are automated, nuclear reactors are one of the things which should never be given over entirely to a computer. So that increases the number of personel required to control and maintain the reactor, further increasing the weight requirements of the machine, and so forth.
Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
Going with the game fiction, a more modern tiberium based reactor would surely produce enough power for everything.
I don't recall any of the TS fiction even touching on Tiberium as a fuel source? It's not a huge leap of imagination considering that Tiberium is the plot device-iest thing ever, but still.
Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
To compensate the heavy legs, the walking style could be also more realistic
Walking war machines are inherently unrealistic.
Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
and changed into an elephant walking, where always 3 legs are on the ground and only 1 leg is lifted at any point (unlike now where the 2 diagonal opposite legs are lifted at the same time). This would reduce stress to the hull and make the whole unit much more stable.
You know what else would make it more stable? A tracked design. One track on either side. Maybe some sort of turret in the middle?
Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
Dutchygamer wrote:
Volgin wrote:
Juggernaut is cooler. suck it, mk2 fans.
The realistic scaled version from the CGI is indeed really cool (and huge as its supposed to be), but I think the Mammoth still takes the cake. Now what if they where combined...
Don't get me wrong, mechs are cool. But I suspend my disbelief for them. There is no logical reason to use a mech instead of tanks (and perhaps mechanically augmented infantry), in any situation, ever. They just dont make sense. The wear and tear on constantly moving joints, the complexity of the joints, the fact that tanks are getting lower to the ground as time goes by, not super tall, the fact that legs do not present an ideally shock-absorbing firing position, the ease of detection of a mech as opposed to any other form of locomotion, the difficulty of transport, the weight making small bridges and non-paved environments hazardous for mechs, the centre of gravity being reduced to a dangerous degree (making it easier to tip a mech over simply by detonating accordance nearby and letting the shockwave deal with it), and so on.
All these things can be hand waved with science fiction talk, but that's all it is - science fiction talk, hand waving away the lack of logic so that we can continue to have cool stuff.
We only get to have cool stuff as long as we ignore the fact that it doesn't make a lot of sense. By trying to work out how mechs work, you break the willing suspension of disbelief and we can never have mechs again. QUICK_EDIT
I did not want to explain it with perfect realism, but in a more realistic way than complete fiction. You know, the good middle between ridiculous fairy tale logic and realism, which makes things believable while still offering freedom for new ideas to make things cool.
Going the pure realistic way and you can scrap everything from C&C except the minigunner.
My main question was also only, if the toes are really only connected via a single damper (like, has anyone seen a picture with a different connection?). Not if the armor is too thin or the entire walker/Mech design being impossible.
e.g. Not a single Mech that you see in C&C has the ability to turn around, since all the joints work only along a single axis (front to back). For rotation you need a ball joint in the hip so you can rotate the foot to the side. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
Tiberium is never actually used as a currency, but it's instead directly refined so that the minerals it absorbed can then be directly used by weapons factories and the like.
Even though Civilians did make use of tiberium harvesting and refining technology, they purchased this technology from Nod before the first tiberium war broke out IIRC and I doubt Nod made this into a cheap deal (they needed to fund their war machine for the war they'd planned after all).
After TD it might indeed have created a temporary global economy boost, but surely a lot went into restoring what was destroyed during the war and generally when the economy becomes too wealthy, prices go up and money thus becomes less valuable.
Also don't forget the many casualties caused by tiberium poisoning and that even though Kane was gone after TD, it wasn't entirely peaceful (Nod was still around and they even had inner conflicts).
So it does make sense that around the the time of the second tiberium war the civilians didn't give a particularly wealthy impression ingame. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Tiberium sucks up and leeches minerals. It is from the process of leeching that the wealth comes from. On the scale that Tiberium has spread, those resources would likely be endangered or disappearing rather quickly. It would saturate the market with all available resources. _________________ Victory! QUICK_EDIT
Also Known As: evanb90 Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Location: o kawaii koto
Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:34 am Post subject:
Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
Going the pure realistic way and you can scrap everything from C&C except the minigunner.
My main question was also only...
There are no mass-produced man-portable miniguns. So scrap that, too.
Your main question was answered though- It's nothing something worth worrying about. Realism is a uh, slippery slope for designs like this. The Rule of Cool trumps all...
Especially in CNC. _________________ YR modder/artist, DOOM mapper, aka evanb90
Project Lead Developer, New-Star Strike (2014-)
Former Project Lead DeveloperStar Strike (2005-2012), Z-Mod (2006-2007), RA1.5 (2008-2013), The Cold War (2006-2007) QUICK_EDIT
When I say Westwood stuff looks silly, I get flamed.
When PPM says WW stuff looks silly, there's a detailed explanation and discussion...
lulwut? should stop saying opinions on other modding sites.... _________________ I am Zengar Zombolt, The Sword That Cleaves Evil! There is Nothing I can not Cut! QUICK_EDIT
Opinions differ. For me RA2 is silly, cartoonish, ugly, for other wonderful shiny and colorful.
For me TS has a great atmosphere, story, interesting units, terrain that doesn't makes your eyes bleed, hostile/interactive environment and tiberium. Everything that i miss on RA2. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
I don't think RA2 is even that cartoony, aside from the obvious giant squids and mind control, Yuri's Revenge pushed it a bit with Floating discs, brutes and the statue heads. A lot felt quite real in RA2 for me, especially urban maps, the civilian buildings are excellent for example, though I don't like the temperate terrain. QUICK_EDIT
I'll admit (unpopularly) I never liked almost any of the GDI mecha in TS. Kinda like the jugg, but the other three are ugh...
The Wolverine is a walking Coffin with stubby legs
The Titan just rubs me the wrong way, along with the Headlights.
And the MkII is an Under engineered knockoff. though I never liked the AT-AT it's inspired by either. I was more of a AT-ST fan... _________________ I am Zengar Zombolt, The Sword That Cleaves Evil! There is Nothing I can not Cut! QUICK_EDIT
Also Known As: evanb90 Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Location: o kawaii koto
Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:06 pm Post subject:
Zengar_Zombolt wrote:
The Wolverine is a walking Coffin with stubby legs
The Titan just rubs me the wrong way, along with the Headlights.
Wolverine too me always seemed like power armor, rather than a true mech.
If you want to bug yourself with the Titan, look at the "head" and note the uncanny resemblance to an Abrams turret. _________________ YR modder/artist, DOOM mapper, aka evanb90
Project Lead Developer, New-Star Strike (2014-)
Former Project Lead DeveloperStar Strike (2005-2012), Z-Mod (2006-2007), RA1.5 (2008-2013), The Cold War (2006-2007) QUICK_EDIT
the titan i loved, it really looks like a tank with legs and somewhat semi-realistic.
wolverine i also considered more of an infantry armor.
juggernaut, i'm not a friend of, ingame wise it kills the TS diversity of units, some even become useless.
Tough, i like the idea of a ship turret mounted on a thickened titan chassis, but somehow it does look off.
mammoth mk.2 is really a bit underdeveloped and i miss something that makes this unit look interresting. _________________ Hydraw Art on Facebook QUICK_EDIT
If Kirovs bother you in terms of realism, i seriously suggest looking at some of the goofy armored vehicles that real militaries planned or made. Hell, even some civilian stuff designed a generation ago makes RA2's stuff look tame. _________________ Victory! QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 18 Jun 2005 Location: Dordrecht, the Netherlands
Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:21 pm Post subject:
Volgin wrote:
If Kirovs bother you in terms of realism, i seriously suggest looking at some of the goofy armored vehicles that real militaries planned or made. Hell, even some civilian stuff designed a generation ago makes RA2's stuff look tame.
Ultra-large digging machine that outsizes everything movable anyone? QUICK_EDIT
i like Titan alot it remind me how the real Battle Mech in Post apocalypse world should look like. his design look really unique and not too much fancy part on his design. only i dont like is his size is too big for T1 MBT.
for mammoth i'm more like X-66 than MK.II or MM27. when i was kid i even though X-66 Mammoth Tank really exist for real. QUICK_EDIT
Also Known As: evanb90 Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Location: o kawaii koto
Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:13 pm Post subject:
Volgin wrote:
If Kirovs bother you in terms of realism, i seriously suggest looking at some of the goofy armored vehicles that real militaries planned or made. Hell, even some civilian stuff designed a generation ago makes RA2's stuff look tame.
No kidding. Flip through Hunnicutt's works on the History of the American Heavy Tank and Battle Tank. Some absolutely nutty designs.
Quad-tracks (IE Mammoth-like), dual-barrel guns, nuclear engines, remote control drones and parent tanks, autoloading rocket guns, tanks with the engine in the turret, among other things. _________________ YR modder/artist, DOOM mapper, aka evanb90
Project Lead Developer, New-Star Strike (2014-)
Former Project Lead DeveloperStar Strike (2005-2012), Z-Mod (2006-2007), RA1.5 (2008-2013), The Cold War (2006-2007) QUICK_EDIT
Wolverine too me always seemed like power armor, rather than a true mech.
blubb wrote:
wolverine i also considered more of an infantry armor.
Doesn't stop it from looking like a walking coffin with penguin legs and a 2 inch slit for a few port. _________________ I am Zengar Zombolt, The Sword That Cleaves Evil! There is Nothing I can not Cut! QUICK_EDIT
Also Known As: evanb90 Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Location: o kawaii koto
Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:33 pm Post subject:
Zengar_Zombolt wrote:
and a 2 inch slit for a few port.
Ideally viewports are supposed to be small and hard to hit. :p _________________ YR modder/artist, DOOM mapper, aka evanb90
Project Lead Developer, New-Star Strike (2014-)
Former Project Lead DeveloperStar Strike (2005-2012), Z-Mod (2006-2007), RA1.5 (2008-2013), The Cold War (2006-2007) QUICK_EDIT
basically any power suit is a walking coffin if not powered by lightweight materials, very flexible joint sections and probably jet fueled acceleration. wich makes it vulnerable again and takes away the concept of heavy infantry armor.
I still like the wolverine, but i agree zthe TS version lacks any kind of logical reason, and that is only because of it's legs.
That is where TW made the wolverine succeed when they extendet it's legs and got rid of the massive stumps in favor of longer legs, better , more flexible leg joints and overal maneuverability, i believe it can even turn it's body? can't remember, but the TW wolverine would be a very real Anti personal armor, since it has a lot more chances to evade.
looks like a sporting machine, with it's 2 meters heigh, the soldier might be cramped in, but it's definately not a coffin anymore.
the tw titan however, made no freaking sense. _________________ Hydraw Art on Facebook QUICK_EDIT
The thin legs however are much more vulnerable than the TS wolverine legs.
What i like about the TS wolverine is the more realistic armor and design (not so mech warrior similar style as the TW wolverine). It resembles a lot more a real bullet proof portable shield, except that now the soldier doesn't has to carry it anymore.
So the TS wolverine is like an assault infantry protection suit. Even if it's missing a bit the all-terrain capabilities due to the short legs, it is still more realistic than the fragile TW wolverine. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
The thin legs however are much more vulnerable than the TS wolverine legs.
What i like about the TS wolverine is the more realistic armor and design (not so mech warrior similar style as the TW wolverine). It resembles a lot more a real bullet proof portable shield, except that now the soldier doesn't has to carry it anymore.
So the TS wolverine is like an assault infantry protection suit. Even if it's missing a bit the all-terrain capabilities due to the short legs, it is still more realistic than the fragile TW wolverine.
TS wolverine= stumpy, unflexible, slow, stiff body, basically a coffin.
TW wolverine=lighter legs, flexible, fast, can evade, rotate body, almost human like field capability. it's an improvement over the old design. _________________ Hydraw Art on Facebook QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 18 Jun 2005 Location: Dordrecht, the Netherlands
Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:45 pm Post subject:
blubb wrote:
Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
The thin legs however are much more vulnerable than the TS wolverine legs.
What i like about the TS wolverine is the more realistic armor and design (not so mech warrior similar style as the TW wolverine). It resembles a lot more a real bullet proof portable shield, except that now the soldier doesn't has to carry it anymore.
So the TS wolverine is like an assault infantry protection suit. Even if it's missing a bit the all-terrain capabilities due to the short legs, it is still more realistic than the fragile TW wolverine.
TS wolverine= stumpy, unflexible, slow, stiff body, basically a coffin.
TW wolverine=lighter legs, flexible, fast, can evade, rotate body, almost human like field capability. it's an improvement over the old design.
And if you shoot at the leg of the TW Wolverine (and Titan) it's broken, while the TS Wolverine (and Titan) don't have such flimsy legs. Also, I still fail to see how a full-grown man would fit inside the TW Wolverine QUICK_EDIT
the wolverine however, try to hit it's legs.
this would be harder to do than hitting the TS ones in the first place. sacrificing armor for acceleration and speed is a common military technique.
that is why normal infantry isnt wearing any metal armor plates aside from
bullet proof vests. _________________ Hydraw Art on Facebook QUICK_EDIT
Also Known As: evanb90 Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Location: o kawaii koto
Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 11:40 pm Post subject:
blubb wrote:
the wolverine however, try to hit it's legs.
this would be harder to do than hitting the TS ones in the first place. sacrificing armor for acceleration and speed is a common military technique.
that is why normal infantry isnt wearing any metal armor plates aside from
bullet proof vests.
Designs like the Wolverine would be intended to protect against infantry weapons and MAYBE, MAYBE 12.7/14.5mm HMGs. Hit either with an AP round and the leg is gone.
Infantry don't wear metal armor plates because there are materials with better ballistic properties. _________________ YR modder/artist, DOOM mapper, aka evanb90
Project Lead Developer, New-Star Strike (2014-)
Former Project Lead DeveloperStar Strike (2005-2012), Z-Mod (2006-2007), RA1.5 (2008-2013), The Cold War (2006-2007) QUICK_EDIT
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Mammoth MKII
I think 
