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Reichstag (wip)
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Mig Eater
Defense Minister


Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: Eindhoven

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:01 am    Post subject:  Reichstag (wip)
Subject description: D-day's next big thing (again!)
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Once more into the breach I go to hunt my white whale, the Reichstag!

As some of you may already know, I made the Reichstag for D-day some time ago. It was the first "big" building I made for D-day, I spent over a year making it pixel by pixel in Photoshop.



I've never really been happy with it tho, it's full of inaccuracies, missing details & disproportional parts. So I'm having another go at tackling this monster of a building, but instead of Photoshop this time my weapon of choice is 3DS Max.  

Now after three weeks of nothing but 3DS I've finished the ground floor, complete with an very unnecessary level of detailing for a RA2 building.



I was going to start adding lights, furniture, paintings on the walls, etc. But then I came back to my senses & thought I should head up to the next floor, which I'll post here in... I guess a few weeks >.>

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That's indeed very detailed. Impressive work.
But I don't think you have to make the next floor that detailed too. After all you only see the outer walls of the building. (Or do you plan to make an interior theater using this already as cliffs and map layout? )

btw, this high detailed floor would be awesome as damage/rubble frame (with a few texture and damage modifications). So you see the foundation walls and rubble of the inner layout.

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DarkVen9109
Pyro Sniper


Joined: 02 Nov 2012
Location: Philippines

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well done Mig. I hereby rate your artwork and fruits of labor as 100/100. This is good as a pro.

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Orac
President


Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
That's indeed very detailed. Impressive work.
But I don't think you have to make the next floor that detailed too. After all you only see the outer walls of the building.

That's no fun #Tongue

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MasterHaosis
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Joined: 01 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Mig Eater, I suppose you are using custom foundation in Ares for that.

This is impressive work man! I haven't seen better civilian building yet.

About those light posts. They shine well. Did you use alpha lights?

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4StarGeneral
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

To be perfectly honest, I would have loved to create the whole interior of the Warsaw Palace, but having never been, or able to find such blueprints, I couldn't.

Glad you're redoing this, and good luck, these large buildings are quite tough to do, but you know this already. #Tongue
Looking great so far, I love the hand drawn one, but it's too bad it didn't match.

Most likely alphas, just by the way they overlap the building.

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

MasterHaosis wrote:
Mig Eater, I suppose you are using custom foundation in Ares for that.

Not necessarily. Could be split up like pentagon into smaller part-buildings.

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Graion Dilach
Defense Minister


Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It does use custom foundation.

In fact, D-Day is the most prominent user of that feature.

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Mig Eater
Defense Minister


Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: Eindhoven

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The original version is nine different buildings put together (you can see the joints in some places), Ares hadn't been released when I started it so it was the only way. The new one will use a custom foundation tho.

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Graion Dilach
Defense Minister


Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ah, I see. Knew the White House and another one did... expected this as well.

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MasterHaosis
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Joined: 01 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Mig Eater wrote:
The original version is nine different buildings put together

And which foundation had each building? About 4x4?

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
Not necessarily. Could be split up like pentagon into smaller part-buildings.

hehe, I forgot about that. Great Pyramid (in mission where Einstein is held and you need to rescue him from Yuri) is also made from segments.

Putting segments is very nice idea on campaign or maps, but cannot be bailable. Now, we have Ares for such big structures.

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OmegaBolt
President


Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Location: York, England

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I guess it will be almost indestructible then? IMO having the whole thing explode in one go is a downside.

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Orac
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Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Is it possible to make a specific rubble piece impassable?  Might (if technically possible) be a cool alternative to instantly removing the building from the map.

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Graion Dilach
Defense Minister


Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Rubble.Destroyed. #Tongue

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Orac
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Joined: 11 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hear that, Mig!  After you've finished modelling the Reichstag, you get to model the post-bombing Reichstag! Very Happy

But seriously, brilliant model.  Did you unwrap the whole thing (so far) for textures?

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Crimsonum
Seth


Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Location: Fineland

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
But I don't think you have to make the next floor that detailed too. After all you only see the outer walls of the building.


Not necessarily, as the damaged frame could display some parts of the interior (through blown-off rooftop or walls).

I want to feature these famous landmarks in Tiberium-ravaged, afterboom city zones, with visceroids roaming down the hallways #Tongue

Would it be possible to see some Welthaupstadt buildings in an alternate history Berlin where the Nazis won/are close to winning the war? Mainly the Volkshalle, 'cause that shit's enormous.

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Orac
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That thing was the kind of crazy only nazis and soviets dreamed of.  It makes me want to see the Palace of the Soviets, if D-Day is going alternate history (and Mig is a crazy man; which was already close to confirmed if this floor is anything to judge by #Tongue).

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

200x200 map -> 1 building -> map full -> Mig Eater happy Smile

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MasterHaosis
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

LKO, hahaha! Good one! Very Happy

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Krow
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Joined: 30 Jan 2010
Location: Malaysia

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

A crazy idea. Damage that ground floor model, and make the first floor model in damaged state too. And of course the finished model for the last part. (Could add in another model in destroyed state too if you like #Tongue) Use Rubble.Destroyed as Graion mentioned on the undamaged model, first floor model, and ground floor model. Then, use Rubble.Intact to get them back together. #Tongue

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Graion Dilach
Defense Minister


Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

GODDAMN IT... that's a great idea.

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Mig Eater
Defense Minister


Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: Eindhoven

PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
And which foundation had each building? About 4x4?

It uses 5x3 & 3x5 buildings.

Quote:
Did you unwrap the whole thing (so far) for textures?

Yep, this is the first time I've really unwrapped a model too. It took me a week just to do that tho >.>

Quote:
200x200 map -> 1 building -> map full -> Mig Eater happy

So true Laughing

Quote:
that's a great idea.

Yep sounds like a plan, I wonder if you can use destroy anims with the rubble system? Then you can show the floor above collapsing onto the one below etc.

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Orac
President


Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Arrr, unwrapping is a bitch (and I can only imagine the process on such a large thing!)

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Krow
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Joined: 30 Jan 2010
Location: Malaysia

PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Mig Eater wrote:
I wonder if you can use destroy anims with the rubble system? Then you can show the floor above collapsing onto the one below etc.
Just tested. Apparently you can, with one quirk though. The animation and the building appear at the same time.

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Crimsonum
Seth


Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Location: Fineland

PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wasn't the problem with destroy anims that they don't adjust with the map lighting? Or is this fixed with Ares?

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Krow
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You could try it with the terrain's palette for the lighting. Though that is if the colour in the palette lets you.

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OmegaBolt
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Anim's won't adjust to map colouring regardless of palette AFAIK.

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Krow
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That's new to me. Thanks OB.

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m7
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The problem with destroy anims were that they caused reconnection errors if I remember correctly. It's also possible they didn't remap appropriately.

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OmegaBolt
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

These two things were fixed in Ares however.

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Mig Eater
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Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: Eindhoven

PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Done the next two floors of the towers, I'll texture them once all the other parts are done.


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Crimsonum
Seth


Joined: 14 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Funny how I can peek inside a real building I've never been to #Tongue

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Orac
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Looks way more accurate, based on photos I've seen of the real thing.

You've stopped doing the interior? Sad
You'll need a little bit of it on the top floors for damage frames at least.

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Mig Eater
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Joined: 13 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm going to do the interior, the towers are just one big room tho so nothing to really see there.

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Vefbl4
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

good

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OmegaBolt
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wow, this is pretty amazing. You should stream while you model it!

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Mig Eater
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Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: Eindhoven

PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Slowly getting there...



Next is the center section, the back of which is quite complex with multiple archways crisscrossing each other & none of it will be visible ingame #Tongue

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Deformat
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Joined: 17 Sep 2007

PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I sometimes believe you are waaay too bored. #Tongue

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OmegaBolt
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I guess then you need to make a reverse map of Berlin. #Tongue

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Mig Eater
Defense Minister


Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: Eindhoven

PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm getting pissed off, 3DS Max keeps crashing &/or corrupting the file, I've spent the last two days doing the same part of the model over & over & over & over & over... again >.>

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Nikademis Von Hisson
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

you do have the back up set? I have it set for backup every 2 min and 15 files backup. I know one of my buildings is 274,574 polys and can be temperamental it slows down and acts like its gonna crash.  I just wait for it to catch up.

What you can do is work a section separate then once you get parts starting to take shape and you want to check the progress....merge them into once file while maintaining all pieces separate in case of any problems

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Orac
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Memory allocation issues?

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tomsons26lv
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Joined: 30 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nikademis Von Hisson wrote:
you do have the back up set? I have it set for backup every 2 min and 15 files backup. I know one of my buildings is 274,574 polys and can be temperamental it slows down and acts like its gonna crash.  I just wait for it to catch up.

What you can do is work a section separate then once you get parts starting to take shape and you want to check the progress....merge them into once file while maintaining all pieces separate in case of any problems


Auto Backup is a known cause of crashes.

Mig you could try switching to OpenGL, i personally still use DX9 with autoback off because OGL is noticably slower for me and now it only crashes when it rans out of RAM, but Gangster said that switching to OGL fixed the crashes for him

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

or put the model into separate files. e.g. the finish lower section could move into its own file and then you only xref this into your current scene, so you can see it as a reference to match the upper parts to it, but you can't edit it.

This way you're safe that the whole model would get corrupt and xrefs usually also take less RAM afaik.

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4StarGeneral
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

^ What LKO said. The file is most likely corrupt either in the way a poly is being rendered, or some other thing, splitting it to a new file usually fixes it. I have this happen to me every so often as well in Max '09, not so much in 13.

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Mig Eater
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I doubt it's RAM I've got 16gb to play with...

Crashes generally happen when I'm changing between vertex, edges, polygon tools without any warning & for no obvious reasons. It saves a recover file which then crashes again after loading or the model is fecked up.

I tried saving the file on a different drive & saving every 10min, which worked fine for nearly a whole day but it eventually crashed... so I loaded my last manual save which was corrupted! I now I have to go back to the old save on the original drive which is a few days old.

I'll try out some of the suggestions & see if I can make any more progress.

BTW, the model is only 24.000 polys atm, I've been trying to keep it as low as I can.

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Nikademis Von Hisson
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

@ Mig :I know I have had issues with problems similar to the edge/vert/poly deal, but it has never crashed, but it has locked up. I am able to save off my work and re open it.

@   tomsons26lv:  Never had a problem with that, but then again there is always a first


Sometimes when I make a model that I break it up into pieces this way if it does turn out to be a high poly it wont slow me down. Even tough I too have 16 gig ram. I might have 20 sep files, but it works for me

I am not too worried about how many polys it will have. I try to make a building detailed as I can. I make the windows full; ledges, panes of glass and frames, same with the doors. I dont care about poly count as far as the building goes. you can take a low poly building and give it a high detail skin that gives the object .

Anyway getting back on point.....have you tried installing Max on another computer and see whats what. I have it on 3 different computers in my house.

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Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Location: Limbo

PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That is only 24,000 polys as it is? That's a pretty nice job of optimizing, too bad it's as glitchy as it is.

As I said, it's corrupt, and splitting the objects into another file should fix it.

I'm pretty sure most of us that 3D model nowadays are running a similar system configuration, and I have to really doubt anything under 400k polys will slow you down (at least with 16GB of RAM and at least a 1GB x512 GPU){also 8 cores really makes MentalRay renders quick! *gloat*}

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Mig Eater
Defense Minister


Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: Eindhoven

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I managed to fix the crashing, there were a few bad vertices in one of the sections, I deleted them & remodeled the effected part. So with that sorted I've made some more progress.



A most of the detailing that I've added isn't visible tho! So here are a a few closeups of the back of the building & the inner courtyard.





Next is the internal walls & floors...

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Aro
Alcohol Fueled


Joined: 10 Sep 2006

PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That's amazing.

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