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 Forum index » Featured Projects » Dawn of the Tiberium Age
The Hind & Shock Trooper
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DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr
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Joined: 16 Feb 2005
Location: North America Posts: You cannot comprehend...

PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:10 pm    Post subject:  The Hind & Shock Trooper Reply with quote

Any thoughts on maybe implementing the Hind? Theres definitely a way to make it not seem redundant. Could change it's weapon to something like A Path Beyond's Hind's incendiary cannon?.

Whats the first thing that pops up when regarding how to "best" fit in the Hind for DTA, alongside the Yak and all other competition?

- - -

Somebody said the electrical bolt for the shock trooper looks too big, and thats why he isn't in game.

I say ztype it, just add him. Hes the shocky! I need a jump. Plus he was uncrushable. Expensive but awesome. I really miss him.
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Bittah Commander
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally don't think that adding the Hind would improve the game balance and in addition to that, we currently don't have the graphics for it either (nor do we currently have any voxel makers on the team). The TS engine doesn't allow SHPs to be used for aircraft, which means that it'd have to be remade as a voxel.
Although I could of course still add it if someone would make a fitting good looking voxel of it, given that it doesn't really add anything to the mod gameplay-wise, I don't think it'd really be worth the effort.

Also keep in mind that there's the game balance to consider; the Soviet faction is already quite powerful, so I'm not really at liberty to make the Hind any more useful than the aircraft Soviet already has (which basically means that it has to be redundant if it's added, in order to keep the factions balanced).

- - -

I'm the one who said that the electrical bolt is too big compared to the shock trooper itself. I suppose I could still look into adding adding it, but I'll first see if there's anything I can do about the weapon... Maybe a white or light blue beam with particles flying from it or something in that direction.
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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hind:
The Hind would have its use, because as a heli with lots of ammo he delivers the damage much slower than the YAK. Thus a group of them can much better destroy multiple smaller targets and can stay much longer on the battlefield.
To make the YAK still useful, the hind could be made very slow, while maybe even make the hind the best armored heli of them all.

Shock Trooper:
Any weapon with enough particles to make the particles visible at all, would cause serious lag. Especially on a mass produced unit like an infantry.


On a different note
The soviet flamethrower is with the tech center as prereq too late available imo.
Since soviets having nothing against the very fast jeep/bggy/rang of the other factions, and the heavy tank is quite late available and no match against those dodging units,
I would say the soviet flamethrower would be the only infantry actually capable of defeating them (due to the high range fireball). But not with such a high tech level.
Radar would be much better here.
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DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about the original shocky projectile anime? Can't you just use that?
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Lin Kuei Ominae
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shock troopers in RA1 used the engine rendered special tesla bolt effect. TS engine doesn't has this tesla effect.

Not sure if you mean something different with "shocky projectile" though.
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^Rampastein
Rampastring


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
Since soviets having nothing against the very fast jeep/bggy/rang of the other factions

If those fast units ever get to direct combat, they'll get wiped out fast. A Soviet Mammoth tank basically one-shots them, and those fast units can't dodge Tesla Coils and Tesla Tanks (which also one-shot them). Lategame Soviet is basically the most powerful faction in direct combat; only GDI can somewhat try to challenge them. I think it's fine that Soviet is a bit vulnerable to these fast units early.
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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is super easy to get 4 jeeps finish and inside an enemy soviet base, before the soviet even has the first tank.
Soviet has nothing to counter them, especially early game.

When you play against soviet, using these units is almost a 100% win for you. Just drive through the soviet base and kill one building after another.

If the soviet player is building flameturrets, he wastes money and gets a bit later killed by tanks (for which he doesn't has money anymore).
If the soviet builds tanks, you can easy dodge those slow things. And with their huge costs and your constant damage to his base, you can soon outproduce him.
Infantry are cannon fodder for jeeps and just make the jeeps become elite.
Buildings can be easy damaged and destroyed.

If soviets would have a lowtech helipad+hind, this might be good way to counter such jeep rushes.


Against an aggressive Nod player, even the strong soviet tanks don't help. A small group of Bikes early game can wipe out easy the few soviet tanks one by one. They can also dodge flameturret shots and kill those towers without being hit. You can even kill every single soviet harvester with bikes and soviets can't do anything against those fast units.


\Edit
how about giving the soviet airstrip
Prerequisite=RABARR instead of SFACT,RADOME
This would make them much earlier available and you could use YAKs against jeep rushes.
The Mig would get Prerequisite=RAASTRP,RASTEK instead of only RAASTRP, so it gets only late available with tech center.

Right now you have YAK and MIG available at the same time and with the choice between weak YAK against the powerful MIG, it is quite sure which one is never build.
With YAK early and MIG late available you finally give both units a purpose.
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Bittah Commander
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although I don't think I have anything against making Soviet's flamethrower infantry require just the radar to be built, I doubt it would be a solution to counter recon units such as Humm-vees at all. Considering the fireballs are slow, they can be dodged, after which the Humm-vee will be able to kill it quickly (and multiple at the same time, considering the flamethrower infantry explodes when it dies).

I agree that it's hard for Soviet to counter an early recon unit rush, but short from giving Soviet a recon unit as well (which I'd prefer to avoid), I can't really think of an effective way to help Soviet counter it.
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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The aircraft as suggested above would be a nice counter imo.

If you build aircraft, you can counter scout rushes with minimal losses.
But if you build aircraft, you don't have enough money for tanks.

Just like the other houses, which either build scouts and then have less money for tanks,
or build tanks right away.
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Bittah Commander
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aircraft are expensive and since they're fragile, they'll be killed by the scouts as soon as their ammo runs out and they need to return to the helipad to reload.
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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

soviet aircraft have only 1 ammo and thus reload very quick.
YAKs could be made a tad cheaper, like 650cr.
During the short reload break, 2 or 3 MG-scouts should be only able to bring a single YAK into yellow damage before it starts again.
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Bittah Commander
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YAKs are quite powerful in groups, so making them any cheaper than they are already would make them overpowered. In addition to that YAKs currently are actually pretty weak individually; even against recon units (which means that they make bad counters against those and bikes would just shoot them out of the air).
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DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess flame towers are your best bet against bike rushes, plus some heavies.
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OrangeNero
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

its some C&C bs that the hind has only a lousy machine gun like the yak. its a heavy gunship bare anything. A flying mammoth tank you could say.
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Bittah Commander
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
Shock Trooper:
Any weapon with enough particles to make the particles visible at all, would cause serious lag. Especially on a mass produced unit like an infantry

Could you check if the current weapon+particle system causes any lag for you in the dev build? For me it doesn't, even with 20 of them firing at the same time.
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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I checked and didn't notice any lag either.
However, I was never having lags from particles in the first place (except on extreme cases with thousands of them).
Some of the TI staff however experienced extreme lag while I could play without any lag at all. It seems to depend on the system and my 4 PCs seem to be all not that prone to particle lags.
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Bittah Commander
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just had a game with Rampastring and a friend of his who was using a laptop at his place and we didn't notice any lag from the particles during that game either.
I'll see if I can get anyone else to try it out, but for now I'll assume it doesn't cause any lag.
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Lin Kuei Ominae
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe ask Crimsonum or Dutchygamer to test it. I think one of them was it who had issues with particlesystems. It was back then, when we had to disable in TI the OneFrameLight muzzleflash logic due to this.

btw, do you considered using the small RA1 electric arc SHP for this? IIRC there is a small SHP with 4 frames of a small electric arc in it.
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Bittah Commander
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You mean the SHP I'm using for the other Tesla weapons already?
The original SHP in RA is directional, which is why I had to edit it for DTA and this is also what made it appear much bigger in RA (I had to make it look right when fired in any angle).
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Lin Kuei Ominae
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ah yeah, forget what i said. That's the one i meant.
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Iran
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Joined: 23 Mar 2011

PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The logic for the TeslaZap weapon in RA1 is hard-coded to randomly and directionally render the frames for the SHP.

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DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yay Shock trooper is in! Thats awesome thanx bittah.
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Bittah Commander
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm glad you like it; I'm slightly proud of how I got the Shock Trooper's weapon (particle system) to look #Tongue
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DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It looks fantastic brother!

I guess I'll just make this my thread, my thread that regards DTA in the highest value!

- - -

So I see that the Tesla Tank has a limit of 2 or so? Is the thing too OP?

- - -

I still believe in the Hind! There is a way to bring in the beast! Just need to get rid of the redundancy...
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^Rampastein
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote:
So I see that the Tesla Tank has a limit of 2 or so? Is the thing too OP?

It has a build limit of 3. It's not the exact RA version; DTA's one has more armor and firepower Wink
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Lin Kuei Ominae
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In addition would the combination of unlimited mammoths+tesla tanks+V2s make the soviets almost unbeatable.
Thus a "hero" tesla tank was the best way to have it implemented in a balanced way. (or it would have been necessary to nerf it down drastically, making it only a rather redundant support unit)


I would support a hind too. A flying tank that delivers the ammo much slower than the YAK surely has its purpose.
Though without rotors, i'm not sure if that really looks good.
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DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh shit, I've only been playing Nod and Soviets. Do the allies have the longbow?
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Lin Kuei Ominae
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes, they have the apache. Though without rotors and imo with a not that good looking (quite dark) voxel.
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Bittah Commander
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since we lacked (and still lack) 3D graphics artists/voxelers, I just searched for a public voxel for the Longbow and found Tyler Adams', of which I converted the palette and then resized it.

I also don't mind adding the Hind for Soviet, but we simply lack the graphics (and graphics artists) for it right now.
The only thing I dislike about adding the Hind is that Soviet will then need to build a helipad just for a single aircraft that mostly has the same function as the already available YAK.
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Graion Dilach
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a ton of RA2 voxels which could do the trick (for example, Mig made both a RL Longbow and Hind, and he's even using TS normals) you could just delete the rotorsections and there, sold.
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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An already "oversized" voxel for RA2 which goes there beyond the cell size (which nearly all public voxel do, unfortunately), is waaay too big for TS and way waaay too big for a TD mod.
You would have to downscale it to something like 25% of the original size.

In addition would the style not fit at all. The voxel should at least look similar to the TD/RA SHP. The DTA A10 for example is an excellent piece of voxel art that comes astonishingly close to the TD SHP A10.

So in the end the amount of work to convert the RA2 voxel into a fitting TD voxel is high enough, that you could also create a new voxel from scratch.
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DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bittah Commander wrote:
Since we lacked (and still lack) 3D graphics artists/voxelers, I just searched for a public voxel for the Longbow and found Tyler Adams', of which I converted the palette and then resized it.

I also don't mind adding the Hind for Soviet, but we simply lack the graphics (and graphics artists) for it right now.
The only thing I dislike about adding the Hind is that Soviet will then need to build a helipad just for a single aircraft that mostly has the same function as the already available YAK.


You could also give the soviets the chinook! They don't freakin have one so no island expansion, 'cept for that hovercraft terrain piece on that one map or two.

Do the allies have the chinook?
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Bittah Commander
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All factions are already able to build the Chinook, including Soviet.
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DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ahh crap nevermind. I have yet to actually build an airstrip, and I didn't see a helipad to build, mind you I didn't look too hard.

But what I'm sayin is, with an actual helipad, it would just look better for the chinook to land on a helipad, instead of on a runway.
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Bittah Commander
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe so, but considering the Chinook doesn't actually need to reload ammo, I think it's better to be able to build it from the airfield, instead of having to build a separate Helipad just for a Chinook that can land pretty much anywhere anyhow.
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sukhoi37th
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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello everyone, first of all thanks to the team of DTA for the great mod you've made. It is awesome to have the ability of pitting my favourite Soviet faction from RA1 against Nod in desert theater, while listening to Counterstrike, Aftermath or Covert Ops/Sole Survivor/Cut from original TD themes. Gives you just the right feeling. Something, I've been dreaming of since discovering TD and RA1 with respective expansions in early 2000s.

An unused Hind voxel is present in Tiberian Sun files.

I've deleted the rotors, remapped it, trying to stay as close to RA1 original as possible, and added the Hind into the latest build of DTA for human players only.
Here is the whole process in screenshots.

https://imgur.com/a/0gIY0q6

If you want to test it for yourself, I've added it as an attachment. You have to place hind.vxl and hind.hva into the root directory of DTA and both Art.ini and Rules.ini into the INI folder of DTA.

To the team: feel free to use it and, if you want, to include it on your next release. I've added a Soviet heliport, but only for human players, so the AI doesn't know about it and the Hind yet. Also, Orcas and both Nod and Allied Apaches can't dock at the Soviet heliport yet.
I've made a new weapon - HindChainGun, and I gave the Hind proportionally same ammo amount as it had in RA1 (twice as much as the Apache), and gave it same health, plus made it slower.
Also, at the moment there is no icon for it, so this will need to be solved as well.


hindorigtswestwood.vxl
 Description:
The original voxel, if you want to try remapping it yourself

Download
 Filename:  hindorigtswestwood.vxl
 Filesize:  20.01 KB
 Downloaded:  4 Time(s)


dta1-178_soviet_hind.zip
 Description:
Zip with the Hind for Soviets

Download
 Filename:  dta1-178_soviet_hind.zip
 Filesize:  150.4 KB
 Downloaded:  3 Time(s)


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sukhoi37th
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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OrangeNero wrote:
its some C&C bs that the hind has only a lousy machine gun like the yak. its a heavy gunship bare anything. A flying mammoth tank you could say.


Correct, in real life, anti-tank missiles, rocket pods, gun pods, free fall bombs and mine dispensers can be added under its wings.

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