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RA2 TS Comparison??
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deathreaperz
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 4:46 pm    Post subject:  RA2 TS Comparison?? Reply with quote

Can someone explain why TS is the most liked game here??? and why RA2 is the most popular use for modding??? Can someone give me comparison like:

TS/RA2: Great Terrain/Poor Terrain
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Dutchygamer
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TS: much more theme (looks of game, story, factions, etc)
RA2: more advanced engine with more options for modding, better online play options

Just from the top of my head.
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Lin Kuei Ominae
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I prefer TS modding since it's a lot faster and thus easier to test things.
To test something in vanilla TS needs you 5 seconds to get ingame. In RA2 up to a minute due to lots and slow animated menus and very long loading times.

The fact that vanilla TS even works without any registry and RA2 has this stupid "everything explodes after a few seconds" copy protection when the registry crap is missing, also helps making mods for TS.
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OmegaBolt
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think anyone genuinely chooses the games based on modding. People who like TS mod TS and vice versa.

I'd say generally though RA2 is far better for modding. TS has some funky logics RA2 doesn't but I haven't seen any TS mod use them to any great effect. Gameplay is ultimately where it's at and TS modders seem to forget that. #Tongue #shotsfired
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^Rampastein
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OmegaBolt wrote:
Gameplay is ultimately where it's at and TS modders seem to forget that. #Tongue #shotsfired

I'd say that I enjoy both DTA's and TI's gameplay a lot. Much more than RA2's.

Dutchygamer wrote:
RA2: better online play options

Not anymore with Iran's spawner and FunkyFr3sh's / my CnCNet client Wink

Why I mod TS instead of RA2:
- Better performance (what LKO said)
- Smaller tiles lead to better graphics (especially less noticable blocky lighting)
- I like the base game more because of its story and atmosphere. When I like the base game more, I also find more motivation for modding it.
- It's free, so you're able to make your mods stand-alone without EA raging about it

Of course RA2 has a lot of logics which TS lacks, and TS also has a few logics which RA2 lacks (although less so with Ares). Overally RA2 does have more features however; I just happen to find those things which TS does better very important, especially that you can make your mods stand-alone.
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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has anyone ever tried to minimize RA2 and test if then the performance is better? Like a complete total conversion of RA2 to TS using all the TS assets and then have the TS assets only. Without those megabyte big SHPs showing civil building destroyanims etc, RA2 might even show the same performance as TS.

Using RA2's bigger tiles, yet keeping the assets small like TS size might also increase performance. Tile-overlapping in TS is quite a necessity to get many details out of your VXL units, but in RA2 with those bigger tiles the units don't need to overlap to show enough details.
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OmegaBolt
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll add a clause here quick saying that this is a discussion, not an argument, just incase Dutchy comes in here saying the topic should be locked. #Tongue

^Rampastein wrote:
I'd say that I enjoy both DTA's and TI's gameplay a lot. Much more than RA2's.

Well I don't mean RA2 gameplay as that is just tank rushing (like TS is all about disruptor drops). Whatever TS has over RA2 in the engine department I don't think has been well used to create solid gameplay, rather it always seem to be flare with little fun substance or even used to try match basic RA2 logics (such as debris for CellSpread).

^Rampastein wrote:
- Better performance (what LKO said)

I don't see how TS does have better performance. LKO says it is quicker to get ingame, which is (sort of) true (personally it takes a while when FS is installed to get in the menu), but it definitely doesn't take a minute. I don't think I've gotten really annoyed over testing stuff. What would be best is an instant debug map loading mode but TS doesn't have that either.

As for general ingame performance I don't see any difference at all. TS still lags as much as RA2 when it comes to particles, animations and transparency etc and with the addition of Ares RA2 performance is better than vanilla.

^Rampastein wrote:
- Smaller tiles lead to better graphics (especially less noticable blocky lighting)

Personally I would say exactly the opposite. TS lighting is easier to get looking smoother (though also because the terrain is darker) but actually the bigger tiles are needed in the age of bigger resolutions. TS stuff is just too small IMO to view at full resolution. The bigger RA2 tiles and graphics are better suited for the 'future'. You can also fit far more details into a bigger resolution graphic.

Though still having even bigger tiles than RA2 would be nicer IMO, which is what is potentially nice about OpenRA.

^Rampastein wrote:
- It's free, so you're able to make your mods stand-alone without EA raging about it

This is true although XWIS have released a standalone version without the campaign, which is a perfect base for mods.
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Lin Kuei Ominae
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OmegaBolt wrote:
What would be best is an instant debug map loading mode but TS doesn't have that either.

With the Spawner, DTA and TI have that. It's really amazing to get from an ini change into the ingame testmap in 1 second.
Since both mods have the hack to play alone without an AI, it also makes testing super easy and convenient.
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OmegaBolt
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ares has the ability to play without an AI too. Unless the spawner has something I don't know about you still need to go through the menu, set up a game and load. #Tongue Although it probably is faster.
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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no ingame menu anymore, when you use the DTA/TI client.
The DTA and TI client launch the game right into the map, that you have selected in the client.

So you can keep the client (as a normal windows program) with the selected testmap open, edit parallel the inis, and then start directly into the game via the client (just one click on "Launch" in the client to go ingame).
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deathreaperz
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its true if TS loads faster. But RA2 can load like TS if we use RamDisk. I wonder RA2/YR exe re-enabled all TS function and vice versa
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FurryQueen
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It still baffles me why Tiberian Sun is so popular. The game is ztyping awful. The only saving grace is the cutscenes. Also, James Earl Jones.
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Atomic_Noodles
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only things I'd still want from TS (Which is already now available with RA2/YR Thanks to Ares) so far seems to be Turrets Recoiling and Barrels tilting when firing...
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Deformat
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
The fact that vanilla TS even works without any registry and RA2 has this stupid "everything explodes after a few seconds" copy protection when the registry crap is missing, also helps making mods for TS.


Quite, is there a way to fix this?

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CCHyper
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, use Ares or write a hack yourself to fix it.

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Dutchygamer
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OmegaBolt wrote:
I'll add a clause here quick saying that this is a discussion, not an argument, just incase Dutchy comes in here saying the topic should be locked. #Tongue

I haven't said that in months #Tongue
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ArvinCool
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally I think Ares make TS completely obsolete.
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Lin Kuei Ominae
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do savegames work already in ARES?
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Bittah Commander
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They don't FAFAIK. So until they do, a mod with a singleplayer campaign is pretty much out of the question for Ares.
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Speeder
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bittah Commander wrote:
So until they do, a mod with a singleplayer campaign is pretty much out of the question for Ares.


What exactly does "pretty much out of the question" mean here?
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OrangeNero
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ran into some things I like much mor in TS than RA2. You can mod Firestorm and it will work in TS as well. If you mod YR it won't apply to RA2. If you want to play the campaign with your mod that matters quite a lot. Then there's the 100 unit limit.

Speaking of which is there no vehicle list around that has the civ buildings sorted at the end? I partially did that already, might share.
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OmegaBolt
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pretty sure TS has the 100 units bug still, though that was fixed with Ares. For a reorganised vehicle types list there is one on ModEnc.

You can always convert RA2 missions to YR as well. In fact there is a pack here on PPM that does just that.
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Bittah Commander
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speeder wrote:
Bittah Commander wrote:
So until they do, a mod with a singleplayer campaign is pretty much out of the question for Ares.


What exactly does "pretty much out of the question" mean here?

That very few people would play through a campaign when they can't save; with very few missions some people might, but with a longer campaign it's just not doable.
Also, if a mission is a bit challenging (which is to be expected from a good campaign), most people might not even make it through that single mission without being able to save (and having to entirely restart that mission every time you make a mistake would be too frustrating for most; even for skilled players).

So with that said, few to no people at all will be able to play through your campaign if they can't save, which means that creating the campaign itself will be a waste of time and effort.
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Graion Dilach
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Except when it's not. Mind you, Campaigns List.

If every mission is a challenge, then lack of saves is just a flavor. You'd be surprised how much people bitches about the difficulty of MO missions themselves and most people doesn't even bring up lack of saves a problem.

MO has 36 missions now (+ coops) and only 2 of them are affected by that lack, because both missions are 2-3 hours long. The others are not and even I agree, restarting a mission might end up better then loading a savegame of  any mission.
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Bittah Commander
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When it's individual missions instead of entire campaigns it could indeed work (I haven't played the YR missions in years, but I don't recall there being the option to select a specific mission of a campaign after having beaten the previous mission), but even then I imagine it to be quite frustrating to have a mission that gets tricky at a specific point around 20 minutes or more in and you frequently lose the mission there, while having to restarting the mission from the beginning every single time.

I suppose that mappers can avoid creating such tricky situations after the beginning of the mission, but it certainly does limit the options you have in a mission (I imagine especially stealth missions would be annoying to play without being able to save).
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Lin Kuei Ominae
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stealth and commando missions, especially hard and challenging ones are a horror without savegames. Just one wrong move and a hidden enemy unit killed your single unit. Just let a player have to restart 3 times that same mission, and he soon says "ztype it, this makes no fun" and quits playing the campaign.
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mevitar
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wait, people still need savegames to play missions? Surprised #Tongue

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
Do savegames work already in ARES?

Can you have 3 or more sides in TS? #Tongue

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
Just let a player have to restart 3 times that same mission, and he soon says "ztype it, this makes no fun" and quits playing the campaign.

Only 3 times? If someone gives up after just 3 restarts, then they clearly think the mission is too hard, and in that case i don't see how loading their saves 20 or 30 times will make them play that mission anyway. Which is pretty much Graion's point.

BTW, as far as i remember, most mods don't even have a campaign in the first place.

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Graion Dilach
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not to mention, the lack of checkpoints was pretty damn common in the mid-late '90s RPGs/FPSs, it was only these nowadays puny guys who demand autosaves every 3rd minute.

Bittah, you're right tho: Campaigns List is NPatch/Ares feature. That was needed for something like MO campaign.
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^Rampastein
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mevitar wrote:
Can you have 3 or more sides in TS? #Tongue

Yes. Actually, DTA has 4. And it doesn't sacrifice any critical features either, only the ability of having starting units. Everything else, including Short Game, still works.

Saved games are pretty important. I'm pretty sure it'd be harder to enjoy DTA's Soviet Campaign without saved games, for example.

Quote:
Mission 5: Ugh. This one hurt. It took about 12 tries and the final result was about 5-6 hours of work with a drastic KDR. Seriously, this is not a friendly mission. Tips are save often, ...

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mevitar wrote:
If someone gives up after just 3 restarts, then they clearly think the mission is too hard, and in that case i don't see how loading their saves 20 or 30 times will make them play that mission anyway.

move a bit forward in the mission, save
kill a hard enemy, if successful-> save
else load
go to next critical mission point->save
if you manage to survive the critical point ->save
else load

Savegames can do make things a lot easier.
Imagine a commando mission and you miss shooting a minigunner behind a tree who kills you with a lucky shot. With savegames you surely have a point in the mission that saves you from repeating all the stuff you did until you got to the minigunner.

In case of a campaign with different plots using global variables,
e.g. kill base A to move to mission A
kill base B to move to mission B
savegames also make your life much easier to try all the different campaign possibilities.
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E1 Elite
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Savegames are helpful not only for trying different strategies from a save point but also if one wants
to take a break or get interrupted, one could save it and continue later.

But saves may not be perfect with these games. Heard of side effects after resuming from saves.
Also TS uses rules.ini from the save files, so if testing mod changes then savegames are of little use.
Also if mods are getting updated, then most likely a previous save will result in error with updated
version. Compatibility is not assured in such cases.

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mevitar
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Global variables never worked in YR, and as most mods don't have a campaign, they have no need for them anyway. Not that there is nobody who would use them if they existed, but they're a minority.

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
kill a hard enemy, if successful-> save
else load
go to next critical mission point->save
if you manage to survive the critical point ->save
else load

Those that get bored with a mission after 3 restarts will get bored with constant save&load.

Example? Many people couldn't complete MO2 missions, giving up after few tries. This is with save&load available. Did they do it the way you described? Very likely, and they still got bored, because constant save&load is not fun.

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
Imagine a commando mission and you miss shooting a minigunner behind a tree who kills you with a lucky shot.

Lucky shot? Imagine that if you miss shooting, you get to fight 3 Flame Tanks at once, and they spawn next to your commando (supposedly from the hangar nearby that you didn't bother to destroy a moment earlier)! Or you alert a swarm of visceroids, or even whole enemy base! Very Happy
Also add a convoy you have to defend on the other side of the map, constant ambushes, and the commando has to take power in time or the convoy will die! Now, this is a mission i would play, except that other people will get just as annoyed of constant save&load as of constant restarts, and quit. Not lack of save&load issue, but a mission maker that should make use of 3 different difficulty settings.

BTW, i was only joking with the "people still need savegames to play missions?" part. But i can assure you, not everybody need it, especially if the missions aren't aimed at hardcore players (and hardcore players will play hardcore missions even without saves!).

Back on topic:

While you can now completely recreate TS on YR + Ares, you can't get the most interesting YR stuff in TS (worth to mention other YR patches, like NPExt or Gear Zero, which add stuff that neither Ares or TS has). Anyone who wants to mod should be aware of any limitations and choose the game that has what is needed the most (picking TS over YR only because of TS graphics and atmosphere is pointless for a total conversion mod that will change all graphics anyway, as you gain little and will be very limited with what you can do). Other than that, it is just personal preference and person's creativity that sets the limits.

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mevitar wrote:
Global variables never worked in YR

Pretty bad to take a bug of the YR engine and sell it as a reason for why another broken feature is not necessary.
mevitar wrote:
and as most mods don't have a campaign, they have no need for them anyway. Not that there is nobody who would use them if they existed, but they're a minority.

DTA, TI, original TS campaign. They all have a campaign and use or will use global variables.
It's only the boring RA2 which is boring simple.

mevitar wrote:
Lucky shot? Imagine that if you miss shooting, you get to fight 3 Flame Tanks at once, and they spawn next to your commando (supposedly from the hangar nearby that you didn't bother to destroy a moment earlier)! Or you alert a swarm of visceroids, or even whole enemy base! Very Happy
Also add a convoy you have to defend on the other side of the map, constant ambushes, and the commando has to take power in time or the convoy will die! Now, this is a mission i would play, except that other people will get just as annoyed of constant save&load as of constant restarts, and quit. Not lack of save&load issue, but a mission maker that should make use of 3 different difficulty settings.

Sounds like you never played a good commando mission and now try to find ridiculous stupid excuses why savegames are not needed.

Reasons to have savegames in short:
-continue a long mission at a later time (long means a mission that isn't finished after 20min)
-getting through hard mission without having to start all over again once you made a mistake
-try out all the possible triggers/ways to move along a certain mission
-it's a basic feature for any RTS game ever since 1995
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Atomic_Noodles
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MO has those Commando Missions too. Some people were able to finish it without saves back in 2.0 and in 3.0 now.
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Starkku
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Global variables (and as a result, the AltScenario logic sans the selection interface) DO work in YR, it's just that they are not saved correctly in the save game files. Which admittedly makes them less useful but I imagine this functionality will be restored together with save games in Ares, eventually.
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Bittah Commander
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It not impossible to work around the issue of globals not getting stored properly in saved games though.
Since locals do get stored in saved games properly, just have to make the global also set a local; then when the mission ends, a trigger should immediately set the global again if the equivalent local is set. Then at the start of the next mission, the global will still be set (since you can't save in between missions) and a trigger should then set another local right at the start of that next mission if that global is set, so that another trigger can once again set the global at the end of the mission if the local is set.

It takes a little extra work, but it can at least make a campaign a little more interesting.
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ArvinCool
Tiberian Beast


Joined: 01 Jun 2008

PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Come one LKO, are you seriously going to prefer TS over YR+Ares because saves are broken? o_0

I rather have fun online(or offline skirmish) with the great features Ares offer than playing boring missions, which are the same every time you play then(read:pattern). No question about it.

The tons of features Ares offer outweigh the broken saves.

Have you even read the Ares manual? The fact that every active modder today are not using Ares blows my mind.

If I where you, I would finish Gangsters Rewire and release it as a replacement for TS.
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Graion Dilach
Defense Minister


Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Location: Iszkaszentgyörgy, Hungary

PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LKO never bothered to even open a RA2 mix, why would he waste time with opening the Ares manual at all?

I guess even while I treat TS as sucky as he treates RA2, I still care more about the TS mods and played more with any TS mod than he even pretended to read about a RA2 mod.

Also, dullness... since when you guys have 11+ armors? last time I checked you had 7 and it wasn't enough.
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mevitar
Cyborg Firebomber


Joined: 31 Dec 2010

PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
Sounds like you never played a good commando mission and now try to find ridiculous stupid excuses why savegames are not needed.
I played more commando missions, including missions with insane difficulty, than you did (both in TS and YR mods). #Tongue I even had to play some of them without resorting to saves. It more looks like if you never played the most difficult missions in the community, like some of the fan-made ones, or for example those in MO2, to see why people complain that they are impossible even with saves available.

And again, most mods don't even have a campaign. Only the largest mods have it, and they are the minority here. Most people either don't have time to add a campaign for their mods, or make small mods to play with friends without posting them anywhere at all. Those people don't really care if saves are available or not. Why should they if it doesn't affect them? This is also why many people started to use Ares, even if saves are disabled.

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
It's only the boring RA2 which is boring simple.
I still rather mod YR, since the best thing about TS - graphics - is useless for what i want to do. Smile And it should be this way for everyone: that they choose which game they mod themselves, based solely on what they need and want to achieve, not on someone's biased opinion like "TS superior, RA2 inferior, period" (or the other way around).
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RatsInTheWalls
Rocket Infantry


Joined: 14 Jul 2014
Location: Where the fields are green

PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TS is THE superior game.

Ares is THE superior engine. RA/YR is obsolete.

That's it. Topic's over. Everyone go home. Port TS over into Ares, and go be a family man.
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Atomic_Noodles
Defense Minister


Joined: 05 Oct 2011

PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only thing I'd want thats still in TS for Ares to get in is probably Tilting Barrels & Recoiling Turrets. Terrain Deformation & Ice was just ultimate troll-logics imo.
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gistop
Stealth Laser Trooper


Joined: 19 Feb 2014
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^yup. This sounds about right.

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PillBox20
Commander


Joined: 28 Sep 2013
Location: Plovdiv, Bulgaria.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Atomic_Noodles wrote:
The only thing I'd want thats still in TS for Ares to get in is probably Tilting Barrels & Recoiling Turrets. Terrain Deformation & Ice was just ultimate troll-logics imo.


And EMP Cannon superweapon?  Very Happy
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Atomic_Noodles
Defense Minister


Joined: 05 Oct 2011

PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah Turret-Based Activated Superweapons would be awesome too.

And if we're going deeper... maybe even Fire Frames for Turrets on Building Types (Refer to the RPG Tower Component)
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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the turret firing frames didn't work in TS as well. So it would be an entirely new feature, but none the less a cool one.
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gistop
Stealth Laser Trooper


Joined: 19 Feb 2014
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup, I also really want terrain deformation (as Noodles said) because I think it would be cool for the nuke to leave a massive crater, and when units go into it, they would dip down because, well, you know, it's a crater.

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OmegaBolt
President


Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Location: York, England

PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well Ares has better things to do that just copy TS features IMO, especially pretty useless ones like terrain deformation. It might seem cool but it's incredibly annoying, impractical and even overpowered if a weapon makes that area completely unusable. Imagine a nuke causing a huge crater / multiple craters that meant the victim could no longer build there?
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Bittah Commander
Defense Minister


Joined: 21 May 2003
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So add a logic to allow players to somehow allow players to remove those craters via pavement or whatever.
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gistop
Stealth Laser Trooper


Joined: 19 Feb 2014
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I was thinking that you could still build within the area of the crater, because i was thinking it would go 1 layer down and then be flat. It would also be about an 8 circle.

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Graion Dilach
Defense Minister


Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Location: Iszkaszentgyörgy, Hungary

PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yea, add a logic, to fix a logic which is so bonkerz that it was STUPID TO EVEN BE FEATURED.

Fire SW is all what Ares needs from TS, there's already too much TS crap converted (lol silo logic) that it just proved you TS guys wouldn't even care.
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