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Some suggestions for skirmish matches
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Tiberianguy
Medic


Joined: 09 Dec 2014

PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 6:31 pm    Post subject:  Some suggestions for skirmish matches Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

First of all, I like your mod. Kinda cool idea to mix Tiberiun Sun and Red Alerts into one big thing  Cool

After some skirmish, however, I noticed some thigns that you may considered to change:

1. Put additional text

Before you start a skirmish game, you have to select some options, like removing shroud, and so on. However, for people that are not familiarized with C&C universum, some options may sound strange. It will be a good idea to put some text that explains each option.

2. Make possible for refinieres to produce smoke

I noticed that only power plants produce smoke. Is it possible to "apply" smoke also to ore refinieries? If yes, it will look much more natural. (reminds me kinda of the second Soviet briefning, when Kukov is standing before an ore refinery that produces large amout of smoke)  Cool

Last edited by Tiberianguy on Tue Dec 09, 2014 8:02 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Bittah Commander
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Joined: 21 May 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

  1. There is a description of what all game options do in the Read Me file. There isn't enough space to include full descriptions of what all options do in the game lobby itself, so if a description is added there, it could only be done via tool tips. If and when that'll be done is up to Rampastring however.
  2. Somehow I got so used to the current ore refineries that I didn't even realize that they didn't have a smoke anim #Tongue
    A smoke anim could indeed possibly be added in the future, but one will have to be made first.

Edit: There's no smoke coming from the refinery at all in the second soviet briefing Confused
There's a dark cloud drifting by however, but if you can clearly see that it doesn't come from the refinery if you watch until the end.

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Tiberianguy
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Joined: 09 Dec 2014

PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

3. Nuclear explosions

I think it will be cool to add some additional effects related with nuclear explosions. What I mean:

* add the thing that makes the whole screen going "white" for 1 sec, before the "a-bomb launch detected." It really makes the atmoshpere  Cool You do not need to add additional animations, etc. Such effect has appeared in the last Allied mission of the "standard" Red Alert. The effect takes place when the Sovs launch a nuclear warhead on your base (targeting Allied tech center)

* you can make an effect that makes the screen shaking together with the "white going screen"

* you can make the gound on which the nucler missle has fallen go ratiated for some time- just like in Red Alert 2

* and this will be really cool - as we all know a nuclear explosion makes all electronic/electrical devices broken. You can use this; make radar window not function properly for about 2-3 secs after the blast. You can use the effect that a radar jammer produces when it is close to the enemy radar. This feature will give so much realism to the game Cool

4. Issue with game speed

There is a possiblity of selecting speed of game that you prefer. However, if you select the highest game speed (7) that is possible, the game menu still makes the speed 6 as the default speed. in other words, you have to change the game speed manually by yourself.

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Bittah Commander
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

3. None of those suggestions are possible with the TS engine. Such screen effects are rendered directly by the engine and unlike RA, TS has no usable logic for that.
The same thing goes for radiation; it's a logic of the RA2 engine and it's not supported by TS. Additionally it would make the nukes too powerful; you always need to take game balance into consideration and it's no fun (for skilled players) if games are won with super weapons alone.

4. I'm not sure what you mean. The client simply stores what settings you used to start your last skirmish game with and it'll remember those settings until you start another skirmish game with different settings.
The client also only stores the speed that you actually select in the skirmish menu, regardless of what you change it to ingame.

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Tiberianguy
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Joined: 09 Dec 2014

PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Bittah Commander wrote:
Additionally it would make the nukes too powerful; you always need to take game balance into consideration and it's no fun (for skilled players) if games are won with super weapons alone


Actually, I am surprised that a nuclear silo is able to "re-charge" itself so fast. It takes about 2 mins to get the new missle.

BTW,

Can you explain, or give a link to read about it, what is the logic of a game engine? I am just a non-skilled technical guy  Cool

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Bittah Commander
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here you go. Razz

When I say TS lacks usable logics to do the things you suggested, it basically just means that the engine lacks the necessary equipment for the job; basically like how a plane without wings can only drive and not fly.

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

We can only use the logics that the tiberian sun engine is giving us and maybe a few workarounds by using one logic for something else.
e.g. since TS has no GAP Generator, iron curtain or chronosphere, we can't create these for DTA

Tiberianguy wrote:
* add the thing that makes the whole screen going "white" for 1 sec, before the "a-bomb launch detected." It really makes the atmoshpere  Cool You do not need to add additional animations, etc. Such effect has appeared in the last Allied mission of the "standard" Red Alert. The effect takes place when the Sovs launch a nuclear warhead on your base (targeting Allied tech center)

Impossible, the tiberian sun engine (the game) doesn't has any logic to make the screen go white. Such an effect was afaik also only done in red alert singleplayer missions, not in multiplayer.

however, the DTA nuke could get an animated alpha image (example from Twisted Insurrection; see the bright flash on ground which slowly changes into some kind of ring wave)
But such a thing will cause lags and DTA is a mod that has a quite good performance since it's focus is not to create the best possible eye candy animation and stay true to the classic games style.

Tiberianguy wrote:
* you can make an effect that makes the screen shaking together with the "white going screen"

impossible. Only the ion cannon does has a hardcoded shake screen effect (hardcoded=a fixed effect in the exe which we modder can't reproduce on something else)

Tiberianguy wrote:
* you can make the gound on which the nucler missle has fallen go ratiated for some time- just like in Red Alert 2

impossible. Tiberian sun has no radiation logic.
the same way TS has no mind control or other RA2 logics.
The only thing we could do is create a big scorch mark like animation that is slowly disappearing. But that would be only a graphical effect.


Tiberianguy wrote:
* and this will be really cool - as we all know a nuclear explosion makes all electronic/electrical devices broken. You can use this; make radar window not function properly for about 2-3 secs after the blast. You can use the effect that a radar jammer produces when it is close to the enemy radar. This feature will give so much realism to the game Cool

As Bittah mentioned, it would make the Nuke way too powerful, since you can then use the nuke to also shut down defense and units for a short time.
Tiberian Sun has no radar jammer like RA1 and also no such logic. Thus we can't do anything like that.

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Tiberianguy
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for explanations, but I got a question then:

How you were able to make possible that the ore is shining?

The effect of shining was used in Red Alert 2 for gems. This effect take place only in Red Alert 2 and in RA2: YR, and you were able to incorporate it to the The Dawn of the Tiberium Age.

@ Bittah Commander

Thanks for the link

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

In RA2 a special logic was implemented.
In TS, we use a workaround: there is an invisible building under each ore mine/blossom tree which spawns invisible debris that fly in random directions. And when these debris hit the ground, they don't explode with an explosion anim, but with the twinkle animation (the debris also spawn ore/tiberium to give each mine/tree a bigger spreading area)

For some things we can use certain logics and turn them into something different. Animations and art.ini debris being probably the mightiest tool to create other effects.

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Tiberianguy
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Joined: 09 Dec 2014

PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hmmm nice…

Then how about this issue:

5.

RA1 players often group Mammoth tanks together with a V2 rocket launcher and with the use a combo of keys they are able to give their Mammoths the same speed as the v2 lanucher has.

In Allied version of this trick, players group their cruisers together with a transporter and are able to move their cruisers with the speed of the transporter.

In other words, they are cheating.

Is The Dawn of the Tiberian Age protected against the cheats? Some programms ? Applications?

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Bittah Commander
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Changing the speed of one unit by grouping it together with another doesn't work in TS. I think TS has a bit fewer exploits in general and in addition to that, the spawner that DTA uses also has a couple anti-cheat measures against known ways to cheat applied.

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Tiberianguy
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

6. Overwriting the previously saved game

As far I remember, a game always asks to when a player wants to overwrite the previously saved game. In case of DTA, the game is not asking the question. Should DTA ask the player the question?

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Bittah Commander
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

DTA still asks whether you want to overwrite a previously saved game, just like TS does. I just tested it make sure.



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Tiberianguy
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

7. Nod Hijacker

It is funny...Your hijacker is able to hijack a vehicle of...your AI ally Laughing

8. Soviet Yak planes

I have just noticed that AI build 2 airfields and has 3 Yak planes. A plane was able to simply land on the ground  Laughing

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^Rampastein
Rampastring


Joined: 11 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Tiberianguy wrote:
8. Soviet Yak planes

I have just noticed that AI build 2 airfields and has 3 Yak planes. A plane was able to simply land on the ground  Laughing

All air units are able to land on the ground, even when controlled by players. However, they won't reload their ammo unless they land on a helipad / airfield.

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

TS doesn't has the RA1 logic, that you can only build as many aircraft as you have airfields, with any additional aircraft simply exploding/crashing when it can't find a free airfield.

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Tiberianguy
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Joined: 09 Dec 2014

PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

9. Buying upgrades

A collected crate may upgrade a unit. But how about making possible to buy an upgrade for unit, and possible even for buildings? Just like in Dune 2000.

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Upgrades are only for buildings possible.
But excessively used, it would not follow the TD nor the RA1 type of games and thus also don't fit to any of the 4 sides.

However when playing Nod, you have already an upgrade: tiberium fuel for the adv. powerplant.

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Tiberianguy
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

10. Components for some structures

Then how about addying some structures like the component tower in Tiberian Sun? You had a choice what "part" you can install - sam site, greande launcher, or that fast double rifle.

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Bittah Commander
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Gameplay-wise that was only annoying, which is why many mods removed the upgradeable component tower and instead added the Vulcan cannon, RPG launcher and SAM site as a single structure, with the component tower included already.

When thinking about what to add to a mod, you need to keep consider whether it'll actually benefit the gameplay and whether it won't mess up the balance between the factions.

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Tiberianguy
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, speaking about balance between fractions...

NOD's sea shadows are too powerful. I needed only 4-5 sea shadows to totally annihilate the enemy base in a naval map.

In contrast, Allies' cruiser is kinda weak against enemy buildings. Especially, if you realize that in RA1 the cruiser ws probably the most powerful unit...

I miss GPS satellite when playing as Allies  Confused

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^Rampastein
Rampastring


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
In contrast, Allies' cruiser is kinda weak against enemy buildings. Especially, if you realize that in RA1 the cruiser ws probably the most powerful unit...

Weak!? It can destroy a refinery in two bursts and has the longest range from all units in the game once you deploy it. It's not weak at all. Against large buildings it still is the most powerful unit in DTA. However the Sea Shadow is overpowered, we are aware of it and will re-work our naval balance in the future (although not in the next few updates, we're planning on adding additional ships to help balance naval units and those require new 3D models, meaning it's going to take a while).

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Tiberianguy
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I was playing a 2 v 2 match, and 2 cruisers of mine were not able to eliminate an enemy sam site....

Maybe because I was playing on the highest speed possible, and the damage that the cruisers have made, was quickly repaired by the hostile AI. I needed more cruisers to damage the sam site faster than the AI was able to repair it.

Yes, cruiser's guns have a very long range. Which often becomes handy  Wink

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Bittah Commander
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The cruiser's projectiles are inaccurate, so they do a lot less damage to 1x1 sized structures (such as that SAM-site) than they would to 2x2 or larger sized structures. The larger the structure is, the more easily the cruiser can inflict damage to it.

The GPS satellite unfortunately isn't possible with the TS engine.

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Tiberianguy
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes, it was much easier to destroy a construction yard than a sam site. I was pretty surprised to see that the sam site is a 1 x 1 structure - same as AA-guns. In ra1 it was 1 x 2.

Btw, 1 x 1 refers to what kind of unit? To the number of the smallest squares?  Rolling Eyes

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Bittah Commander
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

1x1 refers to the foundation of a structure; it means the foundation is just one single cell, where 2x2 means the foundation is 4 cells and so on.

1x1
[ ]

2x2
[ ][ ]
[ ][ ]

3x3
[ ][ ][ ]
[ ][ ][ ]
[ ][ ][ ]

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Tiberianguy
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thank you for explanation.

But what if a foundation consists of 10 cells ? Like this Allied/Soviet refinery from RA1:

  []
[][][]
[][][]
[][][]

How to describe such foundation ?

11. Chinook

Is it possible to change the units that a Chinook is allowed to transport? The idea is to make possible for Chinook to transport not only infantry, but also tanks, buggies, harvesters, etc. The ability to transport a MCV via air near or even inside the hostile base can bring so much fun. Cool

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E1 Elite
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Have to use only the foundation types available in the game.

Chinook does it already. Click on chinook, then click on the unit to pickup.

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Tiberianguy
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok, I have checked this.

Yes, the chinook is able to transport a unit that do not belongs to infrantry; however, you have first to click on the Chinook, and then on the unit.

in RA1 and RA2 you had to click on unit and click on the helicopter then - the cursor changed into "entry" cursor.

Hmm...I am not sure but in Tiberian Sun you have first to click on a carry all unit and then on a ground unit.

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Bittah Commander
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It indeed works just like the Carryall in Tiberian Sun; there's no other way to transport vehicles with the TS engine.

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Orac
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The carryall logic is that the unit isn't entering anything.  The carryall is literally attaching itself to the unit.

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Crimsonum
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

E1 Elite wrote:
Have to use only the foundation types available in the game.


Which are as follows:
0x0, 6x4, 3x4, 4x4, 5x3, 2x5, 2x6, 1x5, 1x4, 4x3, 3x1, 1x3, 3x3REFINERY, 4x2, 3x5, 3x3, 3x2, 2x3, 2x2, 1x2, 2x1, 1x1

Read more at ModEnc.

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Tiberianguy
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

12. Using railways to transport units

I have played Lin Kuei Ominae’s map Africatorial and noticed that this map has not only railways, but also 3 wagons/traincars. This gave me an inspiration:

Is it possible to use these wagons to transport units? Let’s say 1 unit per traincar.  In the wars that occurred in XIX and XX centuries it was important to have as much control of railway system as possible. So adding the possibility of transporting your army via railway system will add some realism to the game. Maybe even maps that focuses on controlling the railways system can be created. Cool

@Crimsonum

Thanks for the link. I will read it.

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^Rampastein
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Tiberianguy wrote:
Is it possible to use these wagons to transport units?

Only infantry. I think Lin Kuei Ominae's maps already allow these wagons to transport infantry, 10 infantry per wagon unless I'm mistaken.

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

^^correct
send infantry to the train stations (there is one near every player), wait for the train to stop, send the infantry into the train.
Vehicles can not be transported by anything else than an aircraft using carryall logic. -> no train, ship, dropship transport for vehicles

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Tiberianguy
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

These wagons are not moving, there are in one and the same place everytime. The first wagon can carry only 2 units; the second and third wagon can carry 5 units.



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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It's a bug:
The Train begins moving normally when the map starts, but sometimes a units pathfinding that is going across the tracks, will cause the wagons to get disconnected from the train.

There is unfortunately no way to prevent or fix this (or at least we haven't found a way yet).

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Tiberianguy
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sometimes, the game informs that it is possible to deploy a MCV, while in fact it is not possible to deploy it.

I tried to deploy my MCV, but of course it was not possible due to the presence of the hill.



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Tiberianguy
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Another small bug:

When a big number of tanks is moving acrossthe bridge this happens



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Bittah Commander
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The issues in your last 2 posts seem to be bugs of the game itself and also can't be helped.

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

there are also cases where the deploy cursor shows "unable to deploy" while it is actually possible. This is because the deploy cursor check isn't working well with bigger foundations than 1x1. Only for the special baseunit (normally the MCV but not in DTA due to 4 sides)) it seems to have an exception for the 3x3 foundation.

That bridge seems to be a ZAdjust issue. I assume the z-data in the bridge tile is set too high (e.g. a high TS cliff was used as template when the bridge TMP was created, which caused the bridge to use the high cliff z-data).

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Bittah Commander
Defense Minister


Joined: 21 May 2003
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

No, the bridge (just like any of DTA's other terrain) uses the same ZData that all flat terrain uses. The issue is most likely related to tube entrance cells.

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Tiberianguy
Medic


Joined: 09 Dec 2014

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

13. Debris

Well, usually I am happy when game is close to realism but this case is an exception… Rolling Eyes

Those remains of buildings (debris) causes problems. In case you are attacking enemy, you cannot build your base close to him. When an enemy attacks you, you cannot re-build your base easily because of debris that is located in the middle of your base.

Btw, what is z-data?



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ChronoSeth
Sergeant


Joined: 13 Mar 2010
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Tiberianguy wrote:
13. Debris

Well, usually I am happy when game is close to realism but this case is an exception… Rolling Eyes

Those remains of buildings (debris) causes problems. In case you are attacking enemy, you cannot build your base close to him. When an enemy attacks you, you cannot re-build your base easily because of debris that is located in the middle of your base.

As far as I'm aware that's the intention of the debris. You can get rid of it by force-attacking it with explosive weaponry (tank shells and the like) or by collecting it with a harvester.

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Tiberianguy
Medic


Joined: 09 Dec 2014

PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Whoa! Nice surprise. I have ordered my harvester to collect the debris, and the debris was not only collected but also returned to my refinery.

14. Fake buildings

In RA1 Allies were able to build some fake buildings. Maybe use the same trick in DTA but for all fractions?

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^Rampastein
Rampastring


Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Location: Gensokyo

PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

We've considered them for Allies (if we add them, they'll be for Allies only), but Tiberian Sun lacks the "fake" caption for fake structures for the player who built them, so they could be confusing.

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Crimsonum
Seth


Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Location: Fineland

PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

^Rampastein wrote:
We've considered them for Allies (if we add them, they'll be for Allies only), but Tiberian Sun lacks the "fake" caption for fake structures for the player who built them, so they could be confusing.


Is it possible to make them display pips without actually storing anything? It could be a workaround as only the player owning the structure can see its contents, i.e. the storage pips. Then again, one would have to select them in order to see they are fake.

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Tiberianguy
Medic


Joined: 09 Dec 2014

PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

15. Meteors

In some missions of Tiberian Sun (The first GDI mission, and one of NOD’s mission where you have to destroy the convoy of bio-toxin trucks) meteors hit the ground and cause damage. Will it be a good idea to apply the meteorites for some missions, or just make them an available option for skirmish like the possibility of turning OFF/ON ion storms?

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Do you even took the time to play this mod?

a) there is the stormy weather option. it causes ionstorms combined with meteors
b) many maps have meteor showers included (Emerald canyon, northern lights, eerie spirit, tiber, dantes desert, shiners yard, circle of death, island raiders and i surely forgot several others)

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Tiberianguy
Medic


Joined: 09 Dec 2014

PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

One of soundtracks has a typo in its name:

62’s name is Arazoid, not Araziod.



@Lin Kuei Ominae

I am just enthusiastic about the mod.



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