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using ISIS in a mod
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^Rampastein
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Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Location: Gensokyo

PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TAK02 wrote:
These desires son't even exist because humans aren't born with desires, they're formed over time. We Muslims are raised in such a way, that we know NOTHING of this and the resultant desire. And, TBH, I'm thankful I don't know/desire it.

Muslims have no sexual desire? Why do so many of the supposedely asexual Muslim migrants here rape so often then?

You know, you're talking BS. Humans (with the exception of a small percentage of asexuals) have sexual desire, because it makes them reproduce.

TAK02 wrote:
^Rampastein wrote:
So, Poland and other countries that don't let you in are actually doing the right thing.

Even when we're escaping from war?

Yes. There's so many of you who say that you're escaping from war, but are actually 100% economic migrants. It's impossible to determine who's actually escaping war and who's not.

Also, we in Europe simply don't have the resources to help everyone who's escaping war, especially not when you cause so much trouble in the countries that welcome you. Funding refugee camps is a much more sustainable way to help, and you should head there instead.
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Millennium
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Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Location: Osaka (JP)/Hong Kong/Germany

PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TAK02 wrote:
Millennium wrote:

I'm sorry, but there are just too many sources for passages in the Quran that do order warfare against non-muslims.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Themes/jihad_passages.html
Now, you can find that good or bad, but apparently it's in there.
Of course, there are limitations in Islam as to what constitutes a legal act of battle and these limitations are far stricter than rules of combat that Western armies apparently adhere to even today, but the encouragement to fight non-muslims is there.

Edit: Let me rephrase that - "The Quran contains passages which can possibly be interpreted as condoning behaviour that is at odds with the ethic values of non-muslim societies."

Fine: Fighting is encouraged, but not forced, and only when the first move has been made by the non-muslims. I.e.:Muslims won't fight non-muslims unless *boom*

And now we - yet again - come full circle. Each side claims to be the victim of aggression and to be acting in self-defense. This is a problem I cannot resolve. But it's an interesting psychological lesson.

Quote:

Millennium wrote:
Yes, in a roundabout way, I was stating that muslim men's opportunities for having premarital or extramarital consensual sex are reduced.

These desires son't even exist because humans aren't born with desires, they're formed over time. We Muslims are raised in such a way, that we know NOTHING of this and the resultant desire. And, TBH, I'm thankful I don't know/desire it.

Do you agree with criminal statistics that state that immigrants are more likely than natives to commit rape? Seemingly unrelated question, but let's see where we get from here.
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G-E
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee wrote:
Quote:
It is the very success of the influential Jews breaking down conservative Christian values with things like the sexual revolution, turning hollywood into a proxy to deliver whatever cultural subversion they like, and then creating hate-speech laws to prevent criticism, that has put us in this weird position.


This is not a jewish thing at all. This is capitalism and the popularity of adult themes among people. This is western culture. It's not any religion. If you pay attention to most of the orthodox jewish people, women doesn't touch other men before marriage. Only after marriage that they kiss each other and reproduce like bunnies.

Yes and no, up until about 100yrs ago, eastern Europe was very multicultural, with plenty of openness if you'd like to call it that, Jews regularly married outside their circles, and Catholics/Orthodox Christians alike were not the far-right crusaders of the past either. There was peace, like in Syria and Palestine, comfortable co-existence.

It is the small sub-group that primarily gained cultural influence post-WW2 amid the shaming and victim celebration, they totally revamped Hollywood into promoting exceptionalism and sexual liberation. Remember America was largely a Puritanical form of Christian, skeptical of big religion and big government. The fabric of western culture is founded on outcasts and rebels founding a new home, a new way, far away from the old world. Hard work was the theme, not art and self-expression. The Jewish dominated Hollywood changed American culture permanently, and they exported this change to the rest of the world (where they could).

I'm not saying these select few are entirely representative of Judaism, anymore than your favourite terrorist group is representative of Islam, but again because if their disproportional power to spread their message, to use their wealth and influence to change society, they are significant. I'm only calling it Jewish by association, as I frequently remind people, most zionists are not Jewish, and most Jews are not zionist. It's a key point to maintain, but we have to ascribe some blame on the sources, even if others have joined the cause.

Most of you won't know the Black Panthers are heavily influenced by Jewish revolutionaries. They often took principles and ideas from both Maoists and the Bolsheviks. Many of their leaders were in close association with Communist intellectuals. The Black Panthers then, and today Black Lives Matter today, is also largely funded by Jewish backers. I will let you do research about who/when/where/why.

Most Israelis today are taught Palestinians are rats, and that Israel fought a purely defensive war against all these evil Arab regimes trying to kill them. Yet Israel has close ties with both Saudi Arabia and Turkey, the largest groups of ultra-conservative Sunni populations that breed and support terrorist groups. You will also note that the terrorists never attack or threaten to attack Israel. They are allies... it is the moderate Sunni and moderate Shia, the ones that happily get along with Christians that are the enemy!

So if we believe Islam wants to destroy Judaism (or at least Israel) then the terrorists don't fit, or alternately means these are not ideological terrorists, and rather just mercenaries. And if we believe the opposite, Islam really has no quarrel with Jews as such, then the entire war was unjust, the entire occupation of Palestine is a war crime, and the justification for sending Israel arms and foreign aid is based on a lie. Either way, even if the truth lies somewhere between, the entire conflict in the Middle East, including cultural conflict, is manufactured bullshit.
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TAK02
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, I have NO idea where muslims even get the idea of raping. All I know is: IF they really were muslims, they wouldn't have
a) Touched alcohol (there was a report the rapists were drunk somewhere),
b) Raped.
Because it's forbidden

As for the circle Millenium mentioned: I'm only stating what SHOULD have happened/happen. Some of us just go nuts and break the rules. We humans really can be rebelious. Good thing our parents try to break that attitude down. Shame it wasn't enough for the ones behind the Cologne rape
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G-E
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Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^Rampastein wrote:
TAK02 wrote:
Face it: Muslims are hated, this resulted in revenge from our side, which in turn made more hate us, and so on. It's a never ending spiral.

And the easiest way to end that spiral is that you stick to Islamic countries, while some Western countries (mainly US and UK) stop damaging your countries and throwing your governments. The concept of a "multicultular" society has never worked anywhere; people that come from radically different cultures (Western European vs Middle Eastern) haven't been able to live peacefully together anywhere for extended periods of time. Attempts have eventually always lead to chaos. So, Poland and other countries that don't let you in are actually doing the right thing.

I think the lesson here is not that multiculturalism doesn't work, but that there's a sustainable or safe pace to it happening, above that it becomes a disruptive invasion.

Merkel must have known that publicly announcing Germany will take a million refugees will invite a huge increase in migration. If she did, she's clearly not looking out for her existing people, and only looking out for the economic elites who want more cheap labour. If she didn't, then she's a clueless bimbo who has been brainwashed by growing up in Communist East-Germany. Again, either way, this is a problem for Europe that only benefits a small group of people.
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TAK02
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TAK02 wrote:

Multiculture is working at my school just fine. It can work anywhere else IF the people really want it. After all, all humans want is peace. Some just go nuts and decide to cause trouble for the fun of it. THIS is what results in the hate spiral

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Millennium
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TAK02 wrote:
Hey, I have NO idea where muslims even get the idea of raping. All I know is: IF they really were muslims, they wouldn't have
a) Touched alcohol (there was a report the rapists were drunk somewhere),
b) Raped.
Because it's forbidden

Yes. This is all very well for theoretical purposes and I have made similar arguments myself before - if you do not obey the tenets of a religion, then you are not a member of that religion. I don't know if that's true or not.

But to exclude this argument, I see I need to reformat the hypothesis:  
- You don't necessarily have to be a muslim by being taught Islam (This follows from: a) you define "muslim" as someone who follows all of Islam's rules and b) there exist people who have been taught Islam, in whole or in part, and do not follow the rules given by the religion).
- Some people who are taught Islam and live under behavioural restrictions mandated by Islamic scripture end up exhibing non-Islamic behaviour that is also at odds with Western ethical standards (in our example, rape).
- There is a causal relationship between being taught Islam and living under its behavioural restrictions, and exhibiting behaviour that is un-Islamic and at odds with Western ethical standards.

I don't know if that causal structure is "true", but it's now formulated to avoid the hypothesis being "side-stepped" in the way you did.

Of course, the conclusion is that "some people who live under Islam are muslims, and others are criminals", which is true of _any_ culture, religion, whatever... that is not what I want to express, but it's the logical conclusion for now, until I can add a more precise definition of the effect.

Quote:

As for the circle Millenium mentioned: I'm only stating what SHOULD have happened/happen. Some of us just go nuts and break the rules. We humans really can be rebelious. Good thing our parents try to break that attitude down. Shame it wasn't enough for the ones behind the Cologne rape

So you see no correlation between the origin culture of the perpetrators and the events in Cologne?
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TAK02
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Joined: 28 Jun 2015
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There shoudn't be, that's what I'm saying
If there really is, Western society/movies/whatnots have corrupted us worse than I thought
That is NOT going to end well...
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^Rampastein
Rampastring


Joined: 11 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TAK02 wrote:
There shoudn't be, that's what I'm saying
If there really is, Western society/movies/whatnots have corrupted us worse than I thought
That is NOT going to end well...

You don't see the individual having any responsibility for their own actions? Is it always the Western society's fault but never the fault of the criminal? No part of Western culture forced the migrants in Cologne to take part in the sexual assault.
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TAK02
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not forced, but influenced. As in 'getting ideas'
If I were to show/tell someone something they've never done/seen before, they'd want to try it out
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G-E
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Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The American govt doesn't spend a billion dollars every year on radio and newspapers around the world, like in former Soviet states for nothing. Influencing people's ideas does change the local culture.
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blubb
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nordos wrote:
TAK02 wrote:
blubb wrote:

A sad fact is that the death toll in the name of islam is the highest of all religions, by FAR, and it doesnt stop, the middle east is an absolute horrid meat grinder.

Indeed, but let's not forget the reason for the death toll that shouldn't even be considered as low.
Looking at you, USA and co.

Well, you also have to mind that the amount of humans is far greater than it was in the middle ages (crusades, witch hunt, inquisition ...).
Though it probably still is larger, since you aquire weapons far easier (or lets say, weapons with destructive capabilities).



I would give you right if you weren't wrong, despite Islam being the youngest of all big religions with it's 1400 years, it still follows the example of existing in the dark ages, witch hunt ages etc with it's death toll complementary rising to the death toll in the name of christianity.
The numbers of deaths in the name of islam we have today are horrifying because they only intensified as you have well put out.

We're not fighting in the name of christianity, we fight for resources and progress and berichment of established nations that have made scientific leaps and bounds, sure, we make good cash with weapons and whatever we can export or sell. What i find funny is the fingerpointing to the industrial nations and exporters as if it means to throw out responsibility as soon as one receives a weapon and bullets.

However i dont want to lump everyone into one boat, every country has a fair share of muslims (and hopefully growing) who know how to utilize their faith or religion to benefit themselves and everyone else in a positive light.

Qou'ran is a choice, if you're smart enough you can win something out of it and live a good life.
(same goes with every other book, even scientology sci fi shit)

Truth is however, we have some countries, especially the arab countries, who are VERY problematic and have subsocieties who grow in a negative light like a cancer. People who made the choice to take islams vague or negative sides in and spread destructive belief. Wahhabism, or however you want to call it, and yes, stereotypes aren't just "made up" they stem from a bitter truth.

It takes a lot of work to get to a better image, and most of it has to do with learning and a way out of extremism.
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Banshee
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm not saying these select few are entirely representative of Judaism, anymore than your favourite terrorist group is representative of Islam, but again because if their disproportional power to spread their message, to use their wealth and influence to change society, they are significant. I'm only calling it Jewish by association, as I frequently remind people, most zionists are not Jewish, and most Jews are not zionist. It's a key point to maintain, but we have to ascribe some blame on the sources, even if others have joined the cause.


You are doing a terrible association. Of course there are jews among those people who "used Hollywood to break down conservative values". There were many non-jews as well who funded and helped this movement. And those who were jews, did not do that because of their religion, nor to twist other religions or convert people. They did it solely for money.

In short, the way you've expressed your idea was terrible. I won't deny that there are jews full of money who use the media for political purposes related to zionism, but what you were talking about was not a religious conspiracy.

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RP
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OmegaBolt wrote:
What do you think happened in Cologne? Nothing special. There are approx 7,500 rapes in Germany every year, and yet they all manage to go ignored.


Oh fuck off. So it's no big deal if 359 of them occur in only a few hours by mostly North-Africans? The way they orchestrated the whole happening, it's disgusting, and yet you pay 0 attention to what happened that night and immediately say it's no biggy.
You have got to be kidding me.
This is exactly what mean about left winged people ignoring statistics and trying to solve things by cuddling and drinking tea. What happened there is bad, and something should be done about it.
You shouldn't ignore it and say it isn't a bad thing, don't be ignorant.
Of course you can't solve every rape, but things that have a heavy impact on society should be dealt with accordingly.

I'm done replying to this, there's no talking to this kind of ignorance.

TAK02 wrote:
Not forced, but influenced. As in 'getting ideas'


lol, I still read "Western world's fault" here. Not ever, I repeat: ever did we influence those migrants to take part in the sexual assaults.
If only you were to see how rapists are spit out by society and (unfortunately not that much) by law 'here'.
I think that when you are able to violate a human being once, you can do it again. The moral barrier is gone, so punishment should be graver.

TAK02 wrote:
If I were to show/tell someone something they've never done/seen before, they'd want to try it out


Say for instance, I never had sex, and you tell me about it. Does that justify me raping a woman? Should I go unpunished? No! Of course not, it's not civilized to rape someone!
We're no animals that just "put dick in hole because hole looks nice".

Your argumentation weakens by every post, TAK02, which is a shame because this is a very good discussion.
I'm really interested on how Muslims see the Western culture and why some of them get the idea that it is okay to rape women because they are not entirely covered in clothing.
I'm not being sarcastic, I really want to know about the "why" in these actions.
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G-E
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee wrote:
In short, the way you've expressed your idea was terrible. I won't deny that there are jews full of money who use the media for political purposes related to zionism, but what you were talking about was not a religious conspiracy.

Perhaps it was, but you realize that a more nuanced conversation of all the actors involved could take a while... whether recruited accidentally, or as wage slaves serving their bosses, the fact is, many of these ideologies emanate from Jewish philosophers and Jewish business leaders. There is enough correlation to suggest they think differently than the rest of the population isn't there?

We also have ample evidence that they feel morally and intellectually superior, whereas most of the societies they live within are relatively naive, because they aren't psychos. Which is why it's funny how the pseudo-Jews, many of whom are secular, seem to be caught panicking when a genuine right-wing movement shows up. They may know that they corrupted a society, but can never seem to expect the inevitable swing back to right-wing/conservative/orthodox values.

I know this isn't really a religious point, because the Jewish culture is being shaped by the same zionist/elite powers that try to shape us all, the core Judaic religion is actually not the problem, any more than the core Islamic teachings are for terrorism.
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G-E
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps also missing in this discussion is how many ex-terrorists from the Middle-East have left because the "war" is going badly for them? Many thousands of unsavoury characters that had spent a year or more living in a warzone, taking drugs, sharing sex-slaves, and murdering innocent farmers, are now looking to get welfare from Europe.

When the American spokesmen blame Russia for "weaponizing" the refugees, they are trying to swindle the public into forgetting that it was an American program to overthrow Libya and Syria and Ukraine. These bad chickens are now coming home to roost, and the "west" doesn't like it. Absent is any western leaders connecting these dots publicly, and neither is the media.

You see in the mind of these psychos, the real problem is that the terrorists aren't winning, if they were winning they wouldn't have left. If the terrorists continued to gain ground, there would only be "good" refugees.

This is why Russia is being demonized, they are exposing this ultimate hypocrisy, and people are waking up.
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Millennium
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^Rampastein wrote:
TAK02 wrote:
There shoudn't be, that's what I'm saying
If there really is, Western society/movies/whatnots have corrupted us worse than I thought
That is NOT going to end well...

You don't see the individual having any responsibility for their own actions? Is it always the Western society's fault but never the fault of the criminal? No part of Western culture forced the migrants in Cologne to take part in the sexual assault.


Well, he does have a point, I think. Does islamic culture increase rape within islamic societies? I have no statistics to back it up, but I would think the rape rates (discarding for a moment the concept of "marital rape") are likely below the "native" rape rates in Western societies. They are also far, far further below the rape rates of immigrants from Islamic countries within European countries.

The question of "fault" is a thing I can't adress, but I do think that the higher likelihood of muslims to commit rape within Western societies is just as much a property of their culture of origin as it is a property of the host culture. What factors of the host culture exactly work to increase the rape rate (or rather, what factors would lower it if they were different) is hard to say - sexual themes in Western media, less restricted physical access to women, or, as G-E says, lax judical procedures in dealing with criminal cases - any and all of these could play a role. For me, beyond a doubt, the "phenotype" of the culture of these immigrants is different in Europe than it is in the home countries.

Of course, that is not to say that Western culture *should* "change" or "adapt". But in terms of causality, at least for me, he did light up a significant blind spot in my own thoughts on the subject. When thinking about "indirect influences" of Islam on the behaviour of those exposed to it, then it's just as productive to think about "indirect influences" of exposure to cultural and medial content generated by Western culture on the behaviour of those exposed to it.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can we just not talk about this like this. You can use whatever you want and try not to offend people too much.

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TAK02
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RP wrote:
TAK02 wrote:
If I were to show/tell someone something they've never done/seen before, they'd want to try it out


Say for instance, I never had sex, and you tell me about it. Does that justify me raping a woman? Should I go unpunished? No! Of course not, it's not civilized to rape someone!
We're no animals that just "put dick in hole because hole looks nice".

I never said justified. Just a potential reason to 'start it', so to speak
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DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nit pickers taking hits to their mental soft spots once again. Weakness.

I wish I could instantaneously grasp each and every one of your upbringings in a heartbeat. I wanna see how you have been molded, down to the tiniest detail, all at once.

This would make pointing out your downfalls more specific, but for now? I'll have to generalize to be able to address everyone:

Deliberate disinformation on a global scale, and in a mostly unified structure, is whats making you guys so damn docile, its not funny.

Well, actually, it is pretty funny.  

So, you chumps are interested in Islam, huh? Well, here is a tidbit for you to nit pick at:

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2016/02/21/neo-erdogans-plan-islamic-empire-or-armageddon/

Quote:
The possibility that we are seeing an attempt that a Mideast NATO, of sorts, is testing the waters as a major lever against the two traditional Mideast powers. As the US has shown in the Ukraine crisis, what is not politically kosher for NATO to do, it can do itself or in conjunction with other selected members.

The layering that uses the world bodies as screens effectively eliminates the public from having a input in a decision-making process; it is so effective that one could easily argue that the system was constructed to be able to exactly do this. This is why I coined the phrase “pretend-a-democracies” for the West — the shoe fits.

As Gordon covers below, the size of the combined militaries of Turkey, the Saudis and other Gulf States, both air power and armor is bigger than NATO, but with one big difference. It is there. No huge air and sea transport is needed play the card.

Sure, a major conventional war would not necessarily be the goal for this group. But it is feasible they have decided to threaten such, as they watch their plans to carve up both Syria and Iraq going up in smoke due to the Syrian coalition effectiveness.

Last edited by DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr on Sat Mar 12, 2016 6:41 am; edited 2 times in total

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G-E
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



Administrative Warning: Administrative Warning: Political Conspirator Detected!The political opinions expressed by this user in this forum are blindly hostile against Israel and whatever he considers to be Zionism or Zionists. Samples of such behavior can be seen here, here and here. His tactics consists on desconstructing what he considers to be the 'official story' blaming "Zionist" media for "lies", but he never has the intention to prove his claims. He tries to use psychological rethorics to provoke others to prove it in his place and only seem to accept "proofs" (a.k.a. factoids) that seems to fit his shaped opinion about the subject. A proper explanation on his tactics with samples can be seen here and here.


This kind of behavior is not welcomed in this community at all, neither are any kind of hate speech against any group of people. Such attitude is considered trolling. This warning notice is restricted to the Political and Economical Discussion Forum and maybe it will be removed once administrators consider that the attitude of the user has changed.

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TAK02
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lies. Erdogan is a Muslim who doesn't care for himself and doesn't steal from his own people like Ataturk (definitly spelled wrong) did. So why should he go all out and start killing/invading?
World domination? Seriously? We Muslims believe that this world is no more than a test of faith. Even the biggest and strongest empires that have ever existed won't even be worth the wing of a fly once the 'test' is over
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DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@TAK02:

You Muslims don't have any power. THIS, organization, has the power, because the money, the weapons, and the mindsets/spiritual crap of us normal people, are all controlled by them:

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2015/03/08/the-hidden-history-of-the-incredibly-evil-khazarian-mafia/

You guys are pawns. Chumps. You're too good natured, you have morals, honor, perhaps? You can't comprehend how you could be fucked over so easily and so widely.

- - - - -

Now, heres a recent update on the situation of the ONE AND ONLY ENEMY:

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2016/01/17/the-big-squeeze-is-now-on-the-khazarian-mafia/

The reason you have no ztyping idea what I'm talking about hopefully will be abolished sooner, rather than later:

Quote:
Numerous nations around the World have now ganged up on the Khazarian Mafia (KM).

It is cornered and it is losing power by the day. Expect increased surveillance and harassment by local police who take orders from Homeland Security (DHS) and receive their ridiculous conjured up Domestic Terror Watch Lists.

How much real power does the KM have left and for how long can it hold out? Is the KM still powerful enough to start another major war in the Mideast, or even a nuclear WW3 to serve as a covering event for their impending loss of World hegemony?


This is a good generation to be a part of on Earth. You've got alot of catching up to do, TACO2. Enjoy the ride.
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TAK02
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

*sigh*

Back to where we started. I give up. It's useless.

Also, no offense, but it's TAK02, with a 'K', not a 'C'
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Millennium
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
Banshee wrote:
In short, the way you've expressed your idea was terrible. I won't deny that there are jews full of money who use the media for political purposes related to zionism, but what you were talking about was not a religious conspiracy.

Perhaps it was, but you realize that a more nuanced conversation of all the actors involved could take a while... whether recruited accidentally, or as wage slaves serving their bosses, the fact is, many of these ideologies emanate from Jewish philosophers and Jewish business leaders. There is enough correlation to suggest they think differently than the rest of the population isn't there?

We also have ample evidence that they feel morally and intellectually superior, whereas most of the societies they live within are relatively naive, because they aren't psychos. Which is why it's funny how the pseudo-Jews, many of whom are secular, seem to be caught panicking when a genuine right-wing movement shows up. They may know that they corrupted a society, but can never seem to expect the inevitable swing back to right-wing/conservative/orthodox values.

I know this isn't really a religious point, because the Jewish culture is being shaped by the same zionist/elite powers that try to shape us all, the core Judaic religion is actually not the problem, any more than the core Islamic teachings are for terrorism.


If I get you correctly, Judaism works similar to a "gateway drug", in your opinion? The analogy I see here is (and I don't want to imply any definition of "gateway drug" beyond this):

Gateway drug:  
- Almost everyone who is taking drugs harder than Marihuana has at one point passed through a stage of taking Marihuana
- But the vast majority of people who take Marihuana never go on to take harder drugs.

Judaism:
- Almost everyone who has held political, financial or philosophical influence and used that influence to the detriment of society has been Jewish.
- But the vast majority of people who are Jewish do not go on to attain significant political, financial or philosophical influence, nor do they use for detrimental purposes that influence that they have.

Is this a correct description of your analysis of the interaction of Judaism with larger society?
I think we might have stumbled upon a semantic limitation - language doesn't offer a term for your belief, which is why you initially get dumped into the "antisemite" bucket and have to take large turns and strides to explain it.

Isaac_The_Madd wrote:
Can we just not talk about this like this. You can use whatever you want and try not to offend people too much.


I find this is an immensely interesting discussion and people have - for the most part - conducted themselves very civilized. Comparing it to many other online convos about these selfsame topics, it's actually amazingly well-mannered. Lots of takeway points and new angles on this subject to learn about.

Last edited by Millennium on Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:45 am; edited 2 times in total

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Nordos
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Millennium wrote:

Well, he does have a point, I think. Does islamic culture increase rape within islamic societies? I have no statistics to back it up, but I would think the rape rates (discarding for a moment the concept of "marital rape") are likely below the "native" rape rates in Western societies. They are also far, far further below the rape rates of immigrants from Islamic countries within European countries.

I am not claiming that I know anything, but I would like to give an opinion regarding that:
The rape rates in the Arabic lands could be higher for all we know. Simply because things may go unreported.

If it is similary to what happened in India (while India is more extreme than the rest), then you could also come to the conclusion, that the women don't want to report rapes. After all, they will be held responsible as well and be scorned, maybe even punished (they 'seduced' these 'honourable' men!!1111).
And even if they get reported - it would tarnish their reputation and thus censor/surpess it.
I wouldn't trust any statistic I see, tbh. Far too unreliable. Too bad that everything will end up being speculation due to lack of significant evidence, though.


TAK02 wrote:
World domination? Seriously? We Muslims believe that this world is no more than a test of faith. Even the biggest and strongest empires that have ever existed won't even be worth the wing of a fly once the 'test' is over


You notice, that this comment accomplishes the direct opposit from what you want? It simply highlights the naiveness of you, which can be transfered to other Muslims. Meaning, it makes one far more dubious regarding the leaders.
After all, there are proven instances where they try to gain more power. And now you state that they do not desire it? For what reason then?
Sorry, but the more I read, the more I gain the image of a 'sheep' from your posts. Someone who blindly follows whatever they get fed, who never questions it and is ignorant.
(It more or less all started with your 'Muslims are asexual' comment. If you define Muslims in this way, I doubt that there are more then a couple of hundreds of Muslims in the whole world.)
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Millennium
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nordos wrote:
Millennium wrote:

Well, he does have a point, I think. Does islamic culture increase rape within islamic societies? I have no statistics to back it up, but I would think the rape rates (discarding for a moment the concept of "marital rape") are likely below the "native" rape rates in Western societies. They are also far, far further below the rape rates of immigrants from Islamic countries within European countries.

I am not claiming that I know anything, but I would like to give an opinion regarding that:
The rape rates in the Arabic lands could be higher for all we know. Simply because things may go unreported.

If it is similary to what happened in India (while India is more extreme than the rest), then you could also come to the conclusion, that the women don't want to report rapes. After all, they will be held responsible as well and be scorned, maybe even punished (they 'seduced' these 'honourable' men!!1111).
And even if they get reported - it would tarnish their reputation and thus censor/surpess it.

This is probably a good point, rapes must be hugely underreported in the Islamic countries. We know of a situation in which rapes are very common in Islamic countries: housemaids in the gulf states are apparently frequently sexually assaulted by their employers (although that we hear so much of that may be a artifact of the focus of the media). Then there is martital rape, and sexual slavery (which has only recently become somewhat of a significant phenomenon, with the rise of ISIS) - the last point, of course, dumps us right back to a previous point of the debate, namely whether ISIS' crimes were caused by Islam...

Quote:

I wouldn't trust any statistic I see, tbh. Far too unreliable. Too bad that everything will end up being speculation due to lack of significant evidence, though.

And that is the problem, then.
Do we want to rely on plausible speculation or on empirical data of dubitable accuracy?
Without empirical assumptions of some kind, all we can do is argue endlessly in hopes of finding some logical contradiction somewhere...


Another problem I noticed is that it is functionally impossible to test Islam's role in leading to crime. Not just because it's physically impossible to realize experimental setups at the scale of entire societies (or needs implausibly large test rows to control for all other possible factors), but simply for the reason that there is no cultural "nil state" to test against.

E.g., if I somehow managed to travel back in time and extract Islam, or some of its teachings, from Arab society, then come back to the present day and find that crime rates have NOT changed, I might fall into the error of concluding that Islam has no bearing on the crime rates. But it might just be that certain other social aspects have changed towards a new equilibrium which has exactly THE SAME influence on crime rates as Islam did. If we would find that crime rates had indeed changed, then we would only know the relative difference between the old and the new state, not the exact variance on crime rates caused by Islam. Because all cultures (and define 'culture'!) over the world probably differ in their crime rates, there is no cultural nil state to which we could compare it - i.e. "No Islam in society = +/- X amount of crime", "Islam in society, ceteris paribus = +/- X amount of crime". Of course, that doesn't keep us from finding incrementally "better" options, but it fundamentally disallows us to pin down the exact influence of any societal feature on social statistics. Maybe a person smarter than me would like to think this thought to its conclusion though - I might be mistaken.
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OmegaBolt
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RP wrote:
You shouldn't ignore it and say it isn't a bad thing, don't be ignorant.
I'm not doing that at all. I'm saying don't act disproportionately to it, as so many terrified Europeans are, using it as an excuse to propagate their xenophobia. I don't particularly see the difference between one big rape event perpetrated by North Africans or a 1000 individual rapes by white Europeans, it's still a fundamental societal issue that needs be resolved.

^Rampastein wrote:
Kinda like the Paris attacks in November. Oh wait..
Thanks for ignoring the statistics, that's what feeds small minded conservatism. Paris attacks... one example in France, of terror linked to Islamic fundamentalists. I posted three links of statistics that show it is a phenomenally rare occurance for a reason, but to be fair you do have to be diligent enough to actually look yourself, and that's a big ask.

^Rampastein wrote:
Here in Finland we have pretty decent statistics of crimes done by different ethnic groups. People from Middle East and Africa rape about 12 times more often (relatively) than ethnic Finns, and that's after neutralising factors like social state and male/female distribution. Without neutralising those factors the figure would be 17 times higher. I doubt the case is much different from Germany, because the immigrants are mostly from the same areas.
If that is true, what link does that have to Islam? Are they raping in the name of Allah, or are they falling to Human failures that people from across the world have fallen to throughout history, particularly European colonists.

^Rampastein wrote:
Source? Sounds like you're been reading some hardcore feminist propaganda without understanding the numbers at all yourself. According to you there's 7 500 rapes in Germany each year and 100 000 in the UK. Sounds extremely legit. That'd mean that there'd be over 13 times more rapes in the UK than in Germany.
Oh God... "feminist propaganda". You're one of those... Both statistics are from the UK and Germany's police forces. Those bastards, supporting equal rights for women...

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160105160709/https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/214970/sexual-offending-overview-jan-2013.pdf

http://www.bka.de/nn_194552/EN/Publications/PoliceCrimeStatistics/policeCrimeStatistics__node.html?__nnn=true

^Rampastein wrote:
Looking at all these sex abuse cases by people from Muslim backgrounds, it wouldn't surprise me if there'd be a lot more rapes in Britain than in Germany..... but I doubt the difference is 13 times higher.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_sex_gang
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochdale_sex_trafficking_gang
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal
Three specific examples do not address the bigger picture that beloved statistics do.

This article addresses those exact groups. http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/may/14/child-grooming-sexual-abuse-race

It suggests what is similar to black people being massively over represented in US prisons. Black people are 4x more likely to be arrested for possession of marijuana than whites, despite using at the same rate. Mostly because of police racial profiling and their socio-economic situation.

If you know about those three groups then presumably you know about the decades long paedophilia scandal within the UK government and high profile figures? Particularly linked to the Conversative party who are white, privileged and often Eton educated. This is the motherlode of sexual abuse rings and yet wonderfully files and reports keep "disappearing". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westminster_paedophile_dossier
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Millennium
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Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Location: Osaka (JP)/Hong Kong/Germany

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OmegaBolt wrote:
RP wrote:
You shouldn't ignore it and say it isn't a bad thing, don't be ignorant.
I'm not doing that at all. I'm saying don't act disproportionately to it, as so many terrified Europeans are, using it as an excuse to propagate their xenophobia. I don't particularly see the difference between one big rape event perpetrated by North Africans or a 1000 individual rapes by white Europeans, it's still a fundamental societal issue that needs be resolved.

I don't want to imply anything by this question, just to pin down your position:
So you think that, on average, rape statistics do not allow us to conclude that immigrants are acting more unethical, all other things equal? That the rate of rape does not differ between natives and immigrants?

Quote:

^Rampastein wrote:
Kinda like the Paris attacks in November. Oh wait..
Thanks for ignoring the statistics, that's what feeds small minded conservatism. Paris attacks... one example in France, of terror linked to Islamic fundamentalists. I posted three links of statistics that show it is a phenomenally rare occurance for a reason, but to be fair you do have to be diligent enough to actually look yourself, and that's a big ask.

I've responded to this above. I think rejecting the "common belief" that acts of terrorism committed by people from a Middle-eastern cultural background have a greater negative impact (even if we control over the fact that they get disproportionately more attention) than the crimes committed by "natives" classified as "terrorism" according to the laws upon which these statistics build is implausible.

Quote:

^Rampastein wrote:
Here in Finland we have pretty decent statistics of crimes done by different ethnic groups. People from Middle East and Africa rape about 12 times more often (relatively) than ethnic Finns, and that's after neutralising factors like social state and male/female distribution. Without neutralising those factors the figure would be 17 times higher. I doubt the case is much different from Germany, because the immigrants are mostly from the same areas.
If that is true, what link does that have to Islam? Are they raping in the name of Allah, or are they falling to Human failures that people from across the world have fallen to throughout history, particularly European colonists.

We're on the same page here.
First of all, we would need to agree that these statistics are accurate. I have no reason to disbelieve them, but I also don't necessarily implicate Islam as an explanation. We cannot know how much of the differential crime rates (including rape) is explained by Islam, and how much is explained by other factors. TAK02 made the point that muslims are "corrupted by western media content" (to abbreviate it), which, I believe, does have a point, or is at least a possibility within a larger cluster of possible modes in which western culture causes these behaviours, but is obviously not the sole determinant, otherwise, natives, being exposed to the same media content, would necessarily exhibit the same behaviour.

I _think_ that immigrants from the Arab world are just culturally "ill-equipped" to deal with the degree of sexual stimulation that they are exposed to in contact with western civilization.

Edit:
I think, between "rape" and "act of terrorism", the need emerges to clearly define what we mean by those words, outside their meaning to those who made the statistics we use for our positions, and then re-assess the statistics under our new definitions. Right now, it appears we are comparing widely disparate things, just because we find statistics on them under the same term. E.g. a "Swedish Rape" is perhaps not the same as a "German Rape" is perhaps not the same as an "Egyptian Rape", and so on.
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OmegaBolt
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Millennium wrote:
So you think that, on average, rape statistics do not allow us to conclude that immigrants are acting more unethical, all other things equal? That the rate of rape does not differ between natives and immigrants?
I think it's a case of us ignoring or being unaware of the usual inhuman activity around us, but when there is some shocking event that is focused on by the media we take notice. I certainly don't see it as being any worse than the crime our neighbours or "fellow countrymen" commit. On the contrary, that stuff happens day in day out on a greater scale than any single attack could ever be and we're not even told about it, so we don't worry or care.

It's very, very easy to see a terror attack or event like Cologne and close up the borders, declare martial law and turn against all refugees that need our help or all Muslims because "anyone of them could be dangerous". It's much harder to look at ourselves and even acknowledge our own issues, let alone deal with them. There have been programs established to teach refugees not to harass women, for example. Well, the truth is we need that in every school in Europe, because clearly it's a far deeper issue than just a few foreigners causing trouble. Are we gonna do that? Probably not as I think all people like to believe they're the good guys and that friends or relatives couldn't possibly be murderers or rapists, when statistically a woman has to fear rape from her own brother or friend more than from a dude hiding in a bush.

Millennium wrote:
I've responded to this above. I think rejecting the "common belief" that acts of terrorism committed by people from a Middle-eastern cultural background have a greater negative impact (even if we control over the fact that they get disproportionately more attention) than the crimes committed by "natives" classified as "terrorism" according to the laws upon which these statistics build is implausible.
Uhh no, "breaking the law" is not terrorism. Terrorism is defined as killing or attempting to kill for a political or ideological purpose.

That you would, for some reason, assume white European terror is just "freeing chickens" or whatever your original statement was vs Muslim terror as being suicide vests is a pretty strange bias honestly. Animal rights activists are not defined as terrorists for freeing animals.

The vast majority of terror attacks in the EU are defined as separatist terror attacks, by Corsican separatists against France, or various Spanish nationalist groups etc, but almost half of all terror attacks in the EU are in the UK by the several different IRA groups.
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Millennium
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Joined: 09 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OmegaBolt wrote:
Millennium wrote:
So you think that, on average, rape statistics do not allow us to conclude that immigrants are acting more unethical, all other things equal? That the rate of rape does not differ between natives and immigrants?

I think it's a case of us ignoring or being unaware of the usual inhuman activity around us, but when there is some shocking event that is focused on by the media we take notice. I certainly don't see it as being any worse than the crime our neighbours or "fellow countrymen" commit. On the contrary, that stuff happens day in day out on a greater scale than any single attack could ever be and we're not even told about it, so we don't worry or care.

You say that it is "not worse", and I agree. But do you think it is also not more *frequent*?

Quote:

It's very, very easy to see a terror attack or event like Cologne and close up the borders, declare martial law and turn against all refugees that need our help or all Muslims because "anyone of them could be dangerous". It's much harder to look at ourselves and even acknowledge our own issues, let alone deal with them. There have been programs established to teach refugees not to harass women, for example. Well, the truth is we need that in every school in Europe, because clearly it's a far deeper issue than just a few foreigners causing trouble. Are we gonna do that? Probably not as I think all people like to believe they're the good guys and that friends or relatives couldn't possibly be murderers or rapists, when statistically a woman has to fear rape from her own brother or friend more than from a dude hiding in a bush.

So your main concern is that public discourse misses the proverbial "plank in one's own eye"? I agree with that.
I disagree with the notion that the same "remedies" should be applied to both groups, though - Europeans already receive overwhelming cultural messages against rape, so the "low-hanging fruit" might have already been picked here. People of native European descent who chose to commit acts of rape chose to act against overwhelming cultural messages when they do so, so, likely, telling natives that they shouldn't commit rape is will have very low returns in lowering the rate of rape. But, of course, that's a wholly different bag of worms.

Quote:

Millennium wrote:
I've responded to this above. I think rejecting the "common belief" that acts of terrorism committed by people from a Middle-eastern cultural background have a greater negative impact (even if we control over the fact that they get disproportionately more attention) than the crimes committed by "natives" classified as "terrorism" according to the laws upon which these statistics build is implausible.
Uhh no, "breaking the law" is not terrorism. Terrorism is defined as killing or attempting to kill for a political or ideological purpose.

I didn't mean to say that "breaking the law" is terrorism. What I meant to say was that the relevant law might classify "terrorism" in a way that is not really informative. You say "Terrorism is defined as killing or attempting to kill for a political or ideological purpose" - was that the definition of terrorism in each of the statistics you cited? For all I know, even damaging construction equipment is terrorism when motivated by environmentalism, according to some national laws.

My idea was that just because, by the law, some act of crime falls under "terrorism", and hence appears in a terrorism statistic, one shouldn't assume that native terrorism is somehow "bigger" than "foreign" terrorism. All we learn is that, numerically, crimes defined as "acts of terror" are predominantly committed by natives, not by immigrants. But there is very little to derive from that in terms of assessing which population (or cultural variable) has the bigger negative impact. Surely, not all acts of terrorism are equally "bad", even if they all count +1 on the terrorism statistic.

Quote:

That you would, for some reason, assume white European terror is just "freeing chickens" or whatever your original statement was vs Muslim terror as being suicide vests is a pretty strange bias honestly. Animal rights activists are not defined as terrorists for freeing animals.

I'm not assuming that "native terror" is "freeing chickens". It was an example of how a situation in which numerical statistics wouldn't allow us to infer much about whether we should be "scared" of immigrants.
I'm not saying that it really IS so that white europeans are committing more harmless acts of terrorism. All I'm saying is that the statistics in themselves don't disprove that they _might_.

Quote:

The vast majority of terror attacks in the EU are defined as separatist terror attacks, by Corsican separatists against France, or various Spanish nationalist groups etc, but almost half of all terror attacks in the EU are in the UK by the several different IRA groups.

Okay, this brings us closer to finding out the "net terrorism quotient" for the native and immigrant populations.
Now, I think, we would have to assess the timeframe in which the data was collected, and the net detrimental effect of each of these attacks.

Please don't misunderstand my posts as me trying to bat at soft spots in your arguments, I'm just genuinely interested in the topic.
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OmegaBolt
President


Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Location: York, England

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Millennium wrote:
You say that it is "not worse", and I agree. But do you think it is also not more *frequent*?
Are attacks like Cologne more frequent than regular rape? Does that even require answering? 7,500 a year in Germany, nearly 100,000 in the UK, 75,000 in France according to police statistics. Clearly they're more frequent as they happen on an hourly basis.

Millennium wrote:
Europeans already receive overwhelming cultural messages against rape, so the "low-hanging fruit" might have already been picked here.
I don't think so. Nobody tells you not to rape for x reasons, because it is assumed that everyone understands that, but clearly they don't. It's like most girls who use a dating site will be sent dick pics until the server crashes or they quit. That's not "normal" behaviour and yet is overwhelmingly predominant. You'd have thought that we'd know at least not to send pictures of our genatalia to random women as a calling card, but apparently not. Look at all experiences of women and they suffer an amazing amount of harassment that we don't even notice because it's regular and society isn't equal yet.

I think the truth is most guys don't know how to interact with women, because it is never taught. Either we assume it's obvious or it seems condescending or inappropriate to talk about, but it's hugely necessary. We're told constantly how NOT to treat women, but never what IS accceptable and that leaves a lot of people unsure of what to do IMO. Social lessons in schools would help. Teach people how to have healthy relationships because in reality it takes experience and learning to get it right, afterall we get a battering of bad examples in the media constantly.

Millennium wrote:
For all I know, even damaging construction equipment is terrorism when motivated by environmentalism, according to some national laws.
"For all I know"? Why would you ever assume that would possibly be a definition of terrorism? You could say "for all I know meteorite impacts are counted as comic terrorism" but that would be a ridiculous assumption. I did post those three links for a reason, that each site extensive reports by various organisations. You can read them.

Millennium wrote:
"acts of terror" are predominantly committed by natives, not by immigrants
Even the Paris attacks were by French and Belgian nationals, so even that had nothing to do with immigrants.

Millennium wrote:
Now, I think, we would have to assess the timeframe in which the data was collected, and the net detrimental effect of each of these attacks
Those articles were reports per year. There is a lot of studies into the regularity of terrorism and we know it's gone up since 9/11 and the so called war on terror. Just look it up.
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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
Banshee wrote:
In short, the way you've expressed your idea was terrible. I won't deny that there are jews full of money who use the media for political purposes related to zionism, but what you were talking about was not a religious conspiracy.

Perhaps it was, but you realize that a more nuanced conversation of all the actors involved could take a while... whether recruited accidentally, or as wage slaves serving their bosses, the fact is, many of these ideologies emanate from Jewish philosophers and Jewish business leaders. There is enough correlation to suggest they think differently than the rest of the population isn't there?


You are still linking the ideology of some of these individuals with Judaism. And even if some of these people (not all) are jews, rather orthodox or secular, the ideology they promote has absolutely nothing to do with the jewish religion. They are not doing this kind of thing for being jews or with the purpose to fight other religions. It is the set of ideas that circulates in their american, "hollywoodian" community. As I previously said in this topic:

Quote:
What followers of these religions try to do is to bring some the knowledge and habits that they interpret from these religions to their reality.


And you use this kind of argument to produce hate messages against certain religions.






Quote:
We also have ample evidence that they feel morally and intellectually superior,


Your evidences needs to be seriously revised.

I know a bunch of jews and I assure you that this religion does not promote such thing. For starters, they use something that they call Kippah in their heads that symbolizes that God is the superior being and everyone else is in the same level (below God). Of course, likewise in every religion, there are people who may distort concepts and do things that are not related to his religion at all.



Quote:
I know this isn't really a religious point, because the Jewish culture is being shaped by the same zionist/elite powers that try to shape us all, the core Judaic religion is actually not the problem, any more than the core Islamic teachings are for terrorism.


And yet, you and some other creatures of this forum keep up with some hate speech against certain religions, when you know that the problem are those who misuse these tools and not the tools itself.

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^Rampastein
Rampastring


Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Location: Gensokyo

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OmegaBolt wrote:
^Rampastein wrote:
Kinda like the Paris attacks in November. Oh wait..
Thanks for ignoring the statistics, that's what feeds small minded conservatism. Paris attacks... one example in France, of terror linked to Islamic fundamentalists. I posted three links of statistics that show it is a phenomenally rare occurance for a reason, but to be fair you do have to be diligent enough to actually look yourself, and that's a big ask.

It's funny of you to say that. You're actually ignoring your own statistics. You said this:
Quote:
Terrorism in the US or EU however... it's all white, rightwingers, often Christian extremists.

While looking at your first source, 42% of terrorist attacks in US soil were done by Latinos and 24% by "Extreme Left Wing Groups". According to the text, only 11% of terrorist attacks were done by extreme right-wing groups. So you're saying that based on statistics, terrorist attacks in the West are all done by white right-wingers, while the very statistics that you link to say that they're more often done by left-wingers and people who often, if not most of the time, aren't white. Also, according to that site, 6% of terrorist attacks in the US were done by Islamic Extremists, and 6% is still a rather high number considering that Muslims make up about 1% of all US population. That more or less means that if the number of Muslims in the US is increased (and the new Muslims have similar origins to the already existing Muslims in the US), the number of terrorism attacks would also increase rapidly relative to the amount of Muslims in the US.

Your second source doesn't really support your argument that well either. It basically says that while terrorist attacks by religious extremists (including Islamists) in Europe are rare, they cause a lot of deaths when they succeed. Unlike right-wing attacks which usually target individuals, Islamic extremists usually try to find a crowded place and kill as many as possible, making those attacks much more serious and brutal.
Quote:
In 2012, for instance, only 2.8 percent of the terrorist attacks in Europe were religiously-motivated, but nearly half of the people murdered in these attacks were killed by religiously-inspired terrorists.


OmegaBolt wrote:
^Rampastein wrote:
Here in Finland we have pretty decent statistics of crimes done by different ethnic groups. People from Middle East and Africa rape about 12 times more often (relatively) than ethnic Finns, and that's after neutralising factors like social state and male/female distribution. Without neutralising those factors the figure would be 17 times higher. I doubt the case is much different from Germany, because the immigrants are mostly from the same areas.
If that is true, what link does that have to Islam? Are they raping in the name of Allah, or are they falling to Human failures that people from across the world have fallen to throughout history, particularly European colonists.

The rapists come mostly from countries where Islamic culture is the most significant culture. Islam as a religion is a part of that culture and while it can be debated how much Islam actually affects that culture and is it the culture or something else that's making them rape more often, it's very likely that it has something to do with Islam.

OmegaBolt wrote:
^Rampastein wrote:
Source? Sounds like you're been reading some hardcore feminist propaganda without understanding the numbers at all yourself. According to you there's 7 500 rapes in Germany each year and 100 000 in the UK. Sounds extremely legit. That'd mean that there'd be over 13 times more rapes in the UK than in Germany.
Oh God... "feminist propaganda". You're one of those... Both statistics are from the UK and Germany's police forces. Those bastards, supporting equal rights for women...

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160105160709/
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/214970/sexual-offending-overview-jan-2013.pdf

http://www.bka.de/nn_194552/EN/Publications/PoliceCrimeStatistics/policeCrimeStatistics__node.html?__nnn=true

Those statistics don't tell anything about the background of the criminals. Since the UK is quite "multicultural", it wouldn't surprise me if, out of that 100,000, the majority were made by immigrants that come from Islamic countries.

What do you think is the cause behind the UK having 13 times more rapes than Germany btw?

And on another note, I have nothing against equal rights for women. I support equal rights. Doesn't mean that I'd support modern SJW-style feminism. (it's related, because feminist groups often create forged rape statistics that they spread around as the truth, only to make it seem that European males rape more than they actually do while non-Europeans don't rape at all)

OmegaBolt wrote:
I don't particularly see the difference between one big rape event perpetrated by North Africans or a 1000 individual rapes by white Europeans, it's still a fundamental societal issue that needs be resolved.

It shows that holding big rape events is somewhat widely accepted among North Africans, which tells that many of them generally don't mind raping Europeans. North Africans were able to more or less spontaneously hold a big harassing party, while if you even suggested something like that to ethnic Western European males, you'd most likely either get reported to the police or beaten up, because Europeans are generally strongly against harassment and raping.

I think I'm out of this topic now. I originally came here because I noticed a post by Banshee (who can be argued with reasonably), and had to state that he was too optimistic. Then I got interested in hearing about this stuff from an Arab Muslim's viewpoint (TAK02). And at the same time I felt that I had to debunk OmegaBolt's obvious lies and point out his lack of logic. Mission accomplished.
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malius123
Disk Thrower


Joined: 14 Aug 2010

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

this has progressed greatly since last time i was here but with all the intellectual speak aside, the fundamental question that underlines all discussed in this post,  that has haunted us since 1995

are you NOD or GDI?

if i have to explain the analogy then we truly are lost.


and the issue here is people are dieing everything else is secondary, its not religions or organisations that do terrible things its people who do terrible things.

who wouldn't join the brotherhood of nod at a chance of breaking the system, a system inherently based on media capitalism and war. as long as the wars are off in a far away land, as long as we have our games and films, its ok that our governments are bombing country's for oil.
threes a reason the brotherhood of nod became so massive with the malcontent and maligned in its early days of fiction. because there are vast areas of the world tired of our decadent ways, and pompous judgements.

but who wouldnt join GDi at a chance of "peecekeeping" protecting innocent civilians by using vastly superior aircraft bombing runs, ion cannons, and mammoth tanks.

seems like our cultural idea of what is "peacekeeping" is significantly slanted

ISIS exists because of the iraq war, it is a direct consequence, and has now given us justification to start military proceedings in another country.

does no one else see the self for filling prophecy that is happening here.

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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee wrote:
And yet, you and some other creatures of this forum keep up with some hate speech against certain religions, when you know that the problem are those who misuse these tools and not the tools itself.


^Rampastein wrote:
The rapists come mostly from countries where Islamic culture is the most significant culture. Islam as a religion is a part of that culture and while it can be debated how much Islam actually affects that culture and is it the culture or something else that's making them rape more often, it's very likely that it has something to do with Islam.



Ok, I give up.

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Millennium
Commander


Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Location: Osaka (JP)/Hong Kong/Germany

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OmegaBolt wrote:
Millennium wrote:
You say that it is "not worse", and I agree. But do you think it is also not more *frequent*?
Are attacks like Cologne more frequent than regular rape? Does that even require answering? 7,500 a year in Germany, nearly 100,000 in the UK, 75,000 in France according to police statistics. Clearly they're more frequent as they happen on an hourly basis.

1) Events like in Cologne are composed of multiple instances of individual sexual assault. If I were talking of the "Cologne event" as a single case, then I would not agree with your proposition that it is "not worse" than "native rape". Then we would have to define how I would rank it, ethically, relative to "native rape", and that would mean (at least as far as I can see) to dissolve it into single events of sexual assault and then count those against single events of sexual assault committed by natives... so we'd end up with having to look at the "Cologne Event" as an agglomerate of multiple incidences of sexual assault.
2) I'm not talking about "events like Cologne". I'm talking about rape in general. For all we know, the rate of rape could be identical for both population subgroups, PLUS a bonus on "events like Cologne" for the immigrant group.

Quote:

Millennium wrote:
Europeans already receive overwhelming cultural messages against rape, so the "low-hanging fruit" might have already been picked here.

I don't think so. Nobody tells you not to rape for x reasons, because it is assumed that everyone understands that, but clearly they don't. It's like most girls who use a dating site will be sent dick pics until the server crashes or they quit. That's not "normal" behaviour and yet is overwhelmingly predominant. You'd have thought that we'd know at least not to send pictures of our genatalia to random women as a calling card, but apparently not. Look at all experiences of women and they suffer an amazing amount of harassment that we don't even notice because it's regular and society isn't equal yet.

Okay. As I've said, it's a different bag of worms and I can't really comment on whether cultural education would be effective in lowering sexual harassment for natives too. Your example is perhaps not the best, though, because we'd have to define if we want to evaluate "sending dick pics" as equal to "comitting rape".

Quote:

I think the truth is most guys don't know how to interact with women, because it is never taught. Either we assume it's obvious or it seems condescending or inappropriate to talk about, but it's hugely necessary. We're told constantly how NOT to treat women, but never what IS accceptable and that leaves a lot of people unsure of what to do IMO. Social lessons in schools would help. Teach people how to have healthy relationships because in reality it takes experience and learning to get it right, afterall we get a battering of bad examples in the media constantly.

Certainly an interesting tangent.

Quote:

Millennium wrote:
For all I know, even damaging construction equipment is terrorism when motivated by environmentalism, according to some national laws.

"For all I know"? Why would you ever assume that would possibly be a definition of terrorism? You could say "for all I know meteorite impacts are counted as comic terrorism" but that would be a ridiculous assumption. I did post those three links for a reason, that each site extensive reports by various organisations. You can read them.

None of these sites report their definition of "acts of terror". So, my assumption that ideologically-motivated destruction of construction equipment could constitute an "act of terrorism" according to the definition of terrorism used by these statistics is just as plausible as your assumption that it doesn't. Hence, "for all I know" - because I have to make _some_ assumption about what these statistics count as "terrorism", and that is my assumption.

Quote:

Millennium wrote:
"acts of terror" are predominantly committed by natives, not by immigrants
Even the Paris attacks were by French and Belgian nationals, so even that had nothing to do with immigrants.

Yes. Let me rephrase: "natives for which a significant Arabic cultural and Islamic religious element and a significant Arabic genetic element can be assumed".
(By that, I don't want to imply that genetics play any role, but apparently I need to define every differential factor in meticulous detail.)

You can now go on to question whether "Arabic cultural element" is a valid distinction if the culture they were brought up in apparently exists in France and thereby force me to add another layer of meticulous definition to "Arabic cultural element". It's up to you if you want to do that, but I think I've made my point pretty clear and anything beyond this is hairsplittery.

The key point that is being side-stepped is that these people would NOT have been citizens of any European country (nor be physically present in them) if they or their ancestors had not been allowed to immigrate to Europe. From that, people who are against immigration conclude their own position. To say that immigration had no causal relation to the Paris terror attacks is, pardon, bogus. We can argue whether the benefits of immigration outweigh the cost, we can argue whether recent (refugee) immigration might be fundamentally different from the immigration that placed these supposedly French and Belgian terrorists into Europe, but to reject the idea that immigration is implicit as a causal factor to the Paris terror attacks is implausible.

Quote:

Millennium wrote:
Now, I think, we would have to assess the timeframe in which the data was collected, and the net detrimental effect of each of these attacks
Those articles were reports per year. There is a lot of studies into the regularity of terrorism and we know it's gone up since 9/11 and the so called war on terror. Just look it up.

Thanks, didn't see that.
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Nordos
Cyborg Cannon


Joined: 10 Jan 2012
Location: Germany, Berlin

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee wrote:
Banshee wrote:
And yet, you and some other creatures of this forum keep up with some hate speech against certain religions, when you know that the problem are those who misuse these tools and not the tools itself.


^Rampastein wrote:
The rapists come mostly from countries where Islamic culture is the most significant culture. Islam as a religion is a part of that culture and while it can be debated how much Islam actually affects that culture and is it the culture or something else that's making them rape more often, it's very likely that it has something to do with Islam.



Ok, I give up.


Sorry, Banshee, but I can't completely agree, since I can't really accept that the Islam isn't a problem in general.
I am not knowlegable enough about the Koran, yet I can imagine, that due to its very nature (it is based on the old testament, a collection of stories from a long time ago. Written after years, decades, centuries after the content took place [if it ever did anyway], distorting it a lot), a lot of its content is outdated.
It may even be written something along the line that women are generally lower than men (even in the Bible it was stated that Eva was created out of Adams rib. If I remeber correctly, in the old testament, wasn't Lillith, who was created as equal, thrown out of paradise, turning into a demon after God kept slaughtering her children?!).

So, yeah, the Religion could be at fault in the first place. I don't think that it is a coincidence, that women are suppresed in areas, where Religion [Monotheism mostly] is widely prevalent. Dismissing the possibility of the Religion itself being the cause solely because it may offend people... Dunno how I should see that :-/
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DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr
General


Joined: 16 Feb 2005
Location: North America Posts: You cannot comprehend...

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TAK02 wrote:
*sigh*

Back to where we started. I give up. It's useless.

Also, no offense, but it's TAK02, with a 'K', not a 'C'


YOU DAMN QUITTER! YOU TOO BANSHEE: It ain't useless, there's plenty of hope. Did you read those links and take a whole day to catch up on how the planet is actually ruled, or what?

Don't worry, you can't offend me. Taco Taco, Burrito Burrito, jokedity joke joke JOKE. Two tacos for me, and then two tacos for you, MR. Burrito. START LAUGHING.

- - -

Anyways, we all started as a clusterfuck of ideals, and you are sighing of frustration of how your ideals are not working. You're back where YOU started, not we.

It turns out the Joker is in charge, not you, nor your public figure heads, and there's plenty of proof. Thanks to this proof, we're figuring out just how much of our systems of existence (religion only being one of them) have been hijacked.

With the knowledge of it's existence, we can put an end to it, hopefully sooner rather than later, and people are doing so. Those nice people trying to stop it have to be careful though - they don't wanna get their entire family whacked.

TacoMan, you're not looking at the bigger picture, nor is pretty much 75% of the world's population. You're not supposed to, thats the whole point. Humans are very easy to control, this atmosphere was bred for it.

Try again, read these mawfucking articles, they're good starting points. The authors are all military intelligence guys, doctors, and scientists, that do NOT, want to rape your soul, that are actually decent human beings with RESEARCH, instead of brainwashed simpletons that can't think past simple emotions.

These guys are public, they have military records, lots of Ph Ds, etc., etc. Its not some idiot in a basement, these are good people that literally expand the minds of you busy little working class bees. You can check their profiles out on their website.

Long story short, you're Queen's a bitch #Mischievous XD XD XD XD  
*Back to serious:
Quote:
VT has its own reports which tell of police standing around with their hands in their pockets while nightclub bouncers come to the aid of women being groped and mobbed.  Thus, when police officials say this seems like an organized attack, we feel safe in looking at police as not only standing aside but undercover police as the likely parties involved in the assaults as well.
We expect to see more incidents like these, staged by police and carefully coordinated with the press, playing on and building hysteria against not only refugees but Islam as well.  Anyone who has ever been to any holiday celebration in Germany and hasn’t been trampled to death by both excess police presence and people who video everything, must not leave the house often.  No arrests?  No video?  Can we call this another “Hebdo?”


FALSE. FLAG. Meant to get you all emotional, but does not have your interest in mind at all. ALMOST EVERY SINGLE ztyping CONFLICT OF INTEREST WAS PUSHED WITH A FAKE REASON:

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2016/01/06/cologne-muslim-assaults-now-cited-as-false-flag/

Its a ztyping JOKE, you guys are being played! I swear on someone's grave, humans are born to be slaves. As soon as we are born, we have a tone of bullshit to climb out of. So good luck.

I am at peace. Its definitely not useless, you're just not using it right. This world is A-Class entertainment. Chumps being played by unbelievable evil assholes, sums up Earth's entire history in a heart beat.

- - -

HISTORY OF THE KM:

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2015/03/08/the-hidden-history-of-the-incredibly-evil-khazarian-mafia/

UPDATE ON THE INEVITABLE DEMISE OF THE KM:

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2016/01/17/the-big-squeeze-is-now-on-the-khazarian-mafia/ #evil

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G-E
General


Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

New Socialist Germany, worse than the old Nationalist Germany:




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This kind of behavior is not welcomed in this community at all, neither are any kind of hate speech against any group of people. Such attitude is considered trolling. This warning notice is restricted to the Political and Economical Discussion Forum and maybe it will be removed once administrators consider that the attitude of the user has changed.

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G-E
General


Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee wrote:
And yet, you and some other creatures of this forum keep up with some hate speech against certain religions, when you know that the problem are those who misuse these tools and not the tools itself.

Actually no, it's not the religion as I repeatedly say, it's the Jewish culture... they more than almost every other group protect and insulate their tribe, and their way of thinking. The reilgion is at best used as justification or as an identity badge.

Think of it this way, if we have a group of people that have lived for 50 generations, where it was routine kill their enemies in a blood fued, and have some bizarre rituals of sacrifice. Then when inserted into a society that has never had any significant murders, these people might adapt for the sake of that society, by not killing anyone, but perhaps still maintain a very antagonistic view of relationships. The effect of their traditions and beliefs carries on, grandpa will still influence the kiddies, regardless of their growing up in a more open society. In fact these people might find that it is to their advantage to be predatory with so many "weak" or "naive" people around.

What if this new predatory behaviour pays off? What if this no-mercy attitude makes the entire group very successful, rich and influential, would they abandon these altered beliefs/behaviours? No, they would institutionalize it within their tribe.

What I'm describing is hypothetical, but happens in all cultures that blend. The Jewish (not necessarily religious) diaspora have made an art of infiltrating any society they enter, quickly coopting the positions of power, by aiming for the legal and financial professions first. They Make sure to marry the brightest scholars with the children of the most successful families, creating a cultural-economic union, making the economic success of one family inseparable from the tribal success.

This should not be an insult to Jews in the slightest, this formula has worked very well for them. It's the dumb goyim that are the victims here. They still think altruistically, that people genuinely want to do good and co-exist, and that they aren't inherently parasitic. They have trouble believing there could be a group among them that are so focused on achieving what the Jews have achieved throughout history with only 2% of the populations on average.

It is the failure of western education systems to succumb to the Rothchilds central banking ideologies, how the scientific community has become the victim of social Marxism, and how ordinary people are forced to accept social Darwinism as the only way to achieve "success" --- ALL of these are limitations and manipulations placed upon otherwise free thinking societies, who would naturally move in unpredictable directions, and ALL of these emanated from Jewish intellectuals, because they had a certain amoral way of looking at the world, and no compunction to serve the many.

It is not a religious tenet of Judaism to hoard money, or to charge interest on every schmuck they can get into debt, yet their culture, more than any other, has been self-promoting just that. It has worked for them.

*edited because I cut it short, browser was acting up and did crash after hah
Administrative Warning: Administrative Warning: Political Conspirator Detected!The political opinions expressed by this user in this forum are blindly hostile against Israel and whatever he considers to be Zionism or Zionists. Samples of such behavior can be seen here, here and here. His tactics consists on desconstructing what he considers to be the 'official story' blaming "Zionist" media for "lies", but he never has the intention to prove his claims. He tries to use psychological rethorics to provoke others to prove it in his place and only seem to accept "proofs" (a.k.a. factoids) that seems to fit his shaped opinion about the subject. A proper explanation on his tactics with samples can be seen here and here.


This kind of behavior is not welcomed in this community at all, neither are any kind of hate speech against any group of people. Such attitude is considered trolling. This warning notice is restricted to the Political and Economical Discussion Forum and maybe it will be removed once administrators consider that the attitude of the user has changed.

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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nordos wrote:
Sorry, Banshee, but I can't completely agree, since I can't really accept that the Islam isn't a problem in general.
I am not knowlegable enough about the Koran, yet I can imagine, that due to its very nature (it is based on the old testament, a collection of stories from a long time ago. Written after years, decades, centuries after the content took place [if it ever did anyway], distorting it a lot), a lot of its content is outdated.
It may even be written something along the line that women are generally lower than men (even in the Bible it was stated that Eva was created out of Adams rib. If I remeber correctly, in the old testament, wasn't Lillith, who was created as equal, thrown out of paradise, turning into a demon after God kept slaughtering her children?!).

So, yeah, the Religion could be at fault in the first place. I don't think that it is a coincidence, that women are suppresed in areas, where Religion [Monotheism mostly] is widely prevalent. Dismissing the possibility of the Religion itself being the cause solely because it may offend people... Dunno how I should see that :-/


How can you judge so strictly and create such a list of bizarre ideas about a religion that you don't know at all? And regardless of that, don't you really understand that religion is a tool? Religion doesn't kill people, it doesn't rape people. People kill people, people rape people.

Religion is a tool created many years ago to allow civilizations to be predictable in such a way where people would be able to interact with the rest of civilization without being randomly killed, raped, stolen, etc... as long as they followed a set of rules. What we know as constitution nowadays is a modern version of religion. The main difference (among many others) is that constitution expects that humans would inspect and punish those who went rogue, while religions expects God(s) to do that instead, and adds the element of faith to make people believe that God(s) would really do it.

The main foundation for all monotheist religions we are discussing in this topic (and yes, that includes the Islam as well) is the Ten Commandments. They may not be necessarily ten and they may not be necessarily equal for all these religions.

Likewise any other set of rules, they might be ambiguous and open for interpretation under certain circumstances, specially because they were not written under a known context. For this reason, books telling stories with previous experiences* and how they were interpreted or dealt with. This is where books like Torah, Bible and Quran shows up. Of course they feature the culture of the civilizations that wrote them and its nuances. Nowadays, the justice of the vast majority of the countries may use previous experiences to aid judges to interpret the laws in their service or to confirm if new laws are constitutional or not.

Considering how vague these books are, specially when read by generations that did not live that era and culture, other books were written to interpret these books. And we can go on and on and on.... many people get lost in this process and forget that the main foundation of their religion are the Ten Commandments. And these commandments are clear about not killing, rape, stealing, as well as about respecting other people, etc.


And then we go again: should we blame the tool or those who misuse it? Religion was very important for our civilization for a very long. Perhaps, it still is. Likewise any tool, it can be misused.  








* There is no proof that these stories ever happened or if they happened in the way it is being told in these books.

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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
Actually no, it's not the religion as I repeatedly say, it's the Jewish culture... they more than almost every other group protect and insulate their tribe, and their way of thinking. The reilgion is at best used as justification or as an identity badge.


And I'll keep saying that you are confusing a culture of a group of people whose some of them happen to be jews with the jewish religion. Culture and religion are different things, even if the culture of a population is influenced on a random interpretation of one or more religions.

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blubb
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Joined: 31 Jul 2005

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
New Socialist Germany, worse than the old Nationalist Germany:






and later they found the gas actually was provided by turkey.
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Nordos
Cyborg Cannon


Joined: 10 Jan 2012
Location: Germany, Berlin

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While you are right, Banshee, I don't know if I can fully agree with it.
Yes, Religion is only a tool. But the same is true for something like Firearms.

You could always say that the firearms are only a tool, and that people kill people, not guns. And you would be correct. Still, the very ability of being able to use these tools is what makes them dangerous.

Thats what I meant to say - you can't carelessy dismiss the role played out by the tool, for the simple reason of it being only a tool.
Religion itself was created, as you stated, to control humans. And that didn't change over the ages. Yet - the purpose has been replaced by laws and goverments. You do not need two of the same kind, because they will interfere. Especially if one of them is vastly outdated, open and vulnerable as Religion is.

Religion is by default intangible. This higher entity called 'god' does not infere with our world, no matter if it exist or not.
There is no way to regulate such a system.

And thats all based on Religion itself, not to speak of the various messages possible hidden in it.

(Any Religion want the Religion to be spread. After all, every human should 'hear the words of God' and be 'granted salvation'.)



So, no, I do not know that Religion just that well, and I also do not believe that the Religion is at fault per se. Though there are several points which makes me doubt about it.
I can't say with certainty whetever Religion is 'neutral', 'good' or 'evil'*, but I won't dimiss the possible fault of Religion itself simply because it is just a tool.




* These terms are subjective and thus may differ from person to person. Being able to be easily abused is already 'evil' for me, even if its original purpose was a 'good' one.
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G-E
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee wrote:
G-E wrote:
Actually no, it's not the religion as I repeatedly say, it's the Jewish culture... they more than almost every other group protect and insulate their tribe, and their way of thinking. The reilgion is at best used as justification or as an identity badge.


And I'll keep saying that you are confusing a culture of a group of people whose some of them happen to be jews with the jewish religion. Culture and religion are different things, even if the culture of a population is influenced on a random interpretation of one or more religions.

It's the "Jews" who generally identify themselves as Jewish above that of their nation. I fully realize European Jews scattered all over the continent is no more indicative of one population anymore than being "French" is. That's beside the point though.

Much like Islam, Judaism promotes serving as a religious scholar, and as such, breeds more a religious figureheads within their population than pretty much all other faiths. Except that these are not just scholars, they are defenders of the culture in theory. Obviously if you spend all your time studying historical documents and trying to interpret them, you probably don't have time to go hurt people, but they are still in a position to tolerate or abjectly decry extremists in their midst.

I would argue that all extremism is bad, even if it only involves peanut butter. It's the fact that extremism is tolerated and even preached within a society, or within a group, and the more moderate people (especially the traditionalists who should be incensed the most) do nothing about it that also makes them guilty.

Tolerance requires a mix of awareness, discipline and humility. But that societal tolerance can be just as easily destroyed by tolerating the intolerant.

Isn't allowing your comrade-in-religion to do bad things any different to being an accessory to a crime?
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Administrative Warning: Administrative Warning: Political Conspirator Detected!The political opinions expressed by this user in this forum are blindly hostile against Israel and whatever he considers to be Zionism or Zionists. Samples of such behavior can be seen here, here and here. His tactics consists on desconstructing what he considers to be the 'official story' blaming "Zionist" media for "lies", but he never has the intention to prove his claims. He tries to use psychological rethorics to provoke others to prove it in his place and only seem to accept "proofs" (a.k.a. factoids) that seems to fit his shaped opinion about the subject. A proper explanation on his tactics with samples can be seen here and here.


This kind of behavior is not welcomed in this community at all, neither are any kind of hate speech against any group of people. Such attitude is considered trolling. This warning notice is restricted to the Political and Economical Discussion Forum and maybe it will be removed once administrators consider that the attitude of the user has changed.

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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You could always say that the firearms are only a tool, and that people kill people, not guns. And you would be correct. Still, the very ability of being able to use these tools is what makes them dangerous.


You can kill people with your bare hands. Is the ability to use your bare hands dangerous because of that? No, it is not. You just have more fear of firearms, because it is more efficient to kill people than your bare hands.

The problem is still who uses the tool and how it is used. The tool itself is not the problem.


Quote:
Religion itself was created, as you stated, to control humans.


Nope, it was not created to control humans. There is a difference between controlling people and setting constraints for them. But setting constraints would be the method to achieve the purpose. The real objective of the creation of religions was to allow people to live like a civilization, being able to interact with the rest of the population without being randomly killed, stolen, etc.


Quote:
Yet - the purpose has been replaced by laws and goverments. You do not need two of the same kind, because they will interfere. Especially if one of them is vastly outdated, open and vulnerable as Religion is.


Religion is not linked to the concept of State, while laws and constitutions are. Laws and Constitutions are valid for a restricted region. Religion is something that people follows everywhere they go. So, there is a key difference just in that point. But there are much more things that differs religions from constitutions. One of the things that I mentioned is the faith to inspect and punish rogue in religion, while constitutions expects the State (humans) to do that.

Now, I agree that under certain conditions, they may interfere with each other, however, it is up to the user of these tools to deal with that. And again, the danger is not the tool, it's how it is used by the user of the tool.



Quote:
Religion is by default intangible. This higher entity called 'god' does not infere with our world, no matter if it exist or not.
There is no way to regulate such a system.


Depends on how God is defined and this is up to each of us. In my personal perspective, God does interfere with everything, because I define God as the universe.



Quote:
(Any Religion want the Religion to be spread.


If you want a population to not kill or steal or harass people in a random way, you have to expect that other people buy the idea. However, it doesn't mean that the whole world must buy the same idea. Nowadays, with constitutions and laws, what really matters is that the people near you also follow these laws, regardless of the religion. So, while people may want to spread the word about their religion in some way, there is no need for world domination.



Quote:
After all, every human should 'hear the words of God' and be 'granted salvation'.)


I don't give a damn for Salvation, whatever it is.

The main objective from religions have nothing to do with the concept of Salvation. Salvation is a resource used to reinforce the faith that God (or multiples Gods) are looking at everyone and will punish those who doesn't follow the 10* Commandments.









* May not be necessarily ten, as I mentioned in a post above.

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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
It's the "Jews" who generally identify themselves as Jewish above that of their nation. I fully realize European Jews scattered all over the continent is no more indicative of one population anymore than being "French" is. That's beside the point though.


They may follow Judaism, but they do not represent Jews as a whole and their actions do not represent their religion even if they claim to 'defend it', which is not defending the religion itself, but rather what they judge to be beneficial to population that they think that follows Judaism. But again, it is a matter of a local culture that does not represents a religion.





Quote:
Much like Islam, Judaism promotes serving as a religious scholar, and as such, breeds more a religious figureheads within their population than pretty much all other faiths. Except that these are not just scholars, they are defenders of the culture in theory. Obviously if you spend all your time studying historical documents and trying to interpret them, you probably don't have time to go hurt people, but they are still in a position to tolerate or abjectly decry extremists in their midst.


This is something that exists with all religions. If there is a huge concentration of any of them, you'll certainly find it to be exaggerated. Here we have certain groups of christians religions that is booming with new shepherds and becoming a real business.  


Quote:
I would argue that all extremism is bad, even if it only involves peanut butter.


I agree 100% with this sentence.


Quote:
It's the fact that extremism is tolerated and even preached within a society, or within a group, and the more moderate people (especially the traditionalists who should be incensed the most) do nothing about it that also makes them guilty.


Each case requires a separate analysis. There might be peaceful cases. If this extremism violates the 10 commandments, specially by motivating kills, it is not even an extremism. It's an aberration.


Quote:
Tolerance requires a mix of awareness, discipline and humility. But that societal tolerance can be just as easily destroyed by tolerating the intolerant.


Agreed again.



Quote:
Isn't allowing your comrade-in-religion to do bad things any different to being an accessory to a crime?


That's questionable. You have to understand that, in a population, each person has different roles. It's not up to everyone to combat crimes. You may denounce it to the appropriate authorities. And you can't be responsible for the actions of others. You cannot control them.

In PPM, you can see that I am not controlling what people post here, however, I am interfering when I see something that I consider an abuse or a serious violation of rules.

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DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr
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Joined: 16 Feb 2005
Location: North America Posts: You cannot comprehend...

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee wrote:

Religion is a tool created many years ago to allow civilizations to be predictable in such a way where people would be able to interact with the rest of civilization without being randomly killed, raped, stolen, etc...


OH REALLY?!

HAVE YOU HEARD OF Babylonian Talmudism also known as Luciferianism, Satanism or ancient Baal worship? THAT IS ALSO A RELIGION. ITS A TOOL FOR DOMINATION. These fuckers practice everything you just listed, they rape, they steal, they kill, for sport, essentially. Its like getting high, adrenaline rush from the deed. Better than holy water, depending on what mood your in.

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2015/03/08/the-hidden-history-of-the-incredibly-evil-khazarian-mafia/

Killing a victim that has been worked up into it's maximum fear prospect, that moment of the victim's death, that is a heavy dose right there for the reaper - they inhale that shit. AND ITS BEEN RECORDED THROUGHOUT HISTORY. YOU ztyping WHITE BREADS DON'T LISTEN ANYMORE.

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2015/12/13/the-power-and-hegemony-of-the-incredibly-evil-but-incompetent-american-military-industrial-complex/

- - -

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH, and you just said predictable? It makes them predictable? PREDICTABLE!!!!

YEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSS!

EXACTLY! YOU NAILED IT, BANSHEE! IN fact, they are so predictable, controlling them (controlling you) is simple. Simpletons.

- - -

Again, it is your good nature that is your ultimate downfall. This is why, most humans have never risen up, have never questioned ill founded, so called "authority". We trust too much.

In the olden days, it was shock and awe aggressive dominance tactics, direct confrontations to the people: "I AM YOUR KING! Now, BOW!". Nowadays, its the complete opposite. Absolute secrecy. They make the people forget as they retreat, regroup, re-infiltrate, (new) infiltrate, reform, and get back on top. There are a select few kings now that are on the same side (Khazarian Mafia) and have dug themselves deep into all of your feeble human infrastructures, ESPECIALLY RELIGION! You don;t need to sacrifice things to gain power. You have all the power you need. Christ consciousness, unity, law of one religion is the fastest route to ascension.

But religions are tools, ONLY. YOU, are the one responsible for your own world. So go ahead and mope, or have a blast.

- - - -

3rd density creatures such as humans on this incredibly dualistic plane of existence here on Earth, experience the entire range of emotions and thought propositions at an accelerated pace. This is the place to be.

So why the problems, the limitations? Well, there are very ambitious people, very ambitious families, ambitious bloodlines. They have all taken very ambitious actions to leap high over your sense of awareness.

You are essentially blind. You're not even responding whole heartedly to my posts anymore, HAAAAHAHAHA! Definitely not refuting anything, which is always a good sign. Instead, just ignoring and backing up tired indoctrination systems imposed for centuries; nit picking, babbling away at each other, and not being happy.
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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow. Somebody wants attention. But this person needs to write his posts in a more friendly way and needs to be smarter to track internet jokes, like the links he posted. These are not religions, buddy.

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