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"Starcraft" Custom Map Editor
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Missingno50
Vehicle Driver


Joined: 07 Jun 2015

PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 11:18 pm    Post subject:  "Starcraft" Custom Map Editor
Subject description: I mean, the Starcraft Editor for Dawn of the Tiberium Age.
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I know this may sound weird, but could you perhaps replace or have a secondary map editor that resembles the built in one from Starcraft? I only want this since many people LOVE the Starcraft map editor, and while I know it will take a long time, I would still like to see this editor, as it was simple. Another option would be to go Red Alert 1 map editor style, but in total, FinalSun is not very easy to use when making maps like I need them to be. PS:Finalsun may be good at first, but seriously, HELP ME. FINALSUN doesn't like me, and is not good for first timer map creators.

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Graion Dilach
Defense Minister


Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary

PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

One does not simply make a new map editor from scratch. (Keep in mind that FinalSun code is unreleased, so it must be written from scratch.) Starcraft terrain is IIRC less complex than TS (thereby DTA).

FinalSun isn't the best, true, but that's the only tool for the job.

_________________
"If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
=======================
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=======================
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Missingno50
Vehicle Driver


Joined: 07 Jun 2015

PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Graion Dilach wrote:
One does not simply make a new map editor from scratch. (Keep in mind that FinalSun code is unreleased, so it must be written from scratch.) Starcraft terrain is IIRC less complex than TS (thereby DTA).

FinalSun isn't the best, true, but that's the only tool for the job.

Are you suree? I've seen many other map editors(though ditched after about a month), and one good example is the built in editor for OpenRA. OpenRA has a experimental in game(NOT THE LEGACY EDITOR) map editor, and sure, while its HARDER for making single player maps, OpenRA's map editor is better at creating multiplayer maps. Starcraft's terrain may have been MUCH SIMPLER but, game mechanics are similar. I wanted something along the lines of the ability to have REAL good maps without having to faceplant my face head first into going through a map editor that has almost NO TUTORIALS AT ALL. So, either find thousands of tutorials for a map maker noob or facedesk once you realize that OpenRA is better then this Finalsun map maker. PS:OpenRA has to deal with 3 different mods by default. Top that mate.
Edit:Oh yeah, Starcraft has to deal with multiple types of terrain. And has to deal with a lot more then just Money, Terrain, Units, Vespen, but also needs care and the nice fine power of loving the damn map you make(originally said map here #Tongue).

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Orac
President


Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think you're grossly underestimating how much effort an editor takes to build.  I'm trying to find the words to explain why, but it's difficult.

-OpenRA is an ongoing project for which the contributors have the source code.

-StarCraft is a game for which the developers had the source code (obviously).

-Tiberian Sun, and thus DTA is a fifteen year old game for which we do not have the source code.


So:

-OpenRA can develop its editor in parallel with the game.  People can contribute fixes and changes and additions.  As filetypes and special logic is added, the editor can be expanded to allow people to work with these files and logics.

-StarCraft's tools were developed by the same people who were developing the game, so the resulting editor was designed specifically to work with their files, and was designed at the same time that they were designing the game to work with their files.

-FinalSun was built by talented amateurs many years ago, the source for it is lost, as is the source for Tiberian Sun, and nobody has yet come forward with the willingness to build a whole new editor from scratch.

OpenRA and StarCraft have to deal with a lot of things, but they got to deal with them at the same time the devs were deciding how the game was going to deal with those issues too.  FinalSun was built long after Tiberian Sun shipped, so it never had that HUGE benefit.

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Orac wrote:
-FinalSun was built by talented amateurs many years ago, the source for it is lost, as is the source for Tiberian Sun, and nobody has yet come forward with the willingness to build a whole new editor from scratch.

small correction
FinalSun source code is still in Matthias Wagner's hands and he just can't release it, due to copyright issues. He sold the editor to EA, EA gave a few internal game codes to optimize the editor (e.g. script and trigger work mechanisms and codes), now EA has the copyright.

I asked Matze if we can get the source code, and he said only when EA gives his OK.
I then asked Olaf to forward the question to EA officials, if the editors source code can be released.
EA is a bitch and said "no", so we can't even get the source code for the editor which is by 95% build by Matze and other non-EA-programmers.

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Graion Dilach
Defense Minister


Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary

PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Missingno50 wrote:
I've seen many other map editors(though ditched after about a month), and one good example is the built in editor for OpenRA. OpenRA has a experimental in game(NOT THE LEGACY EDITOR) map editor, and sure, while its HARDER for making single player maps, OpenRA's map editor is better at creating multiplayer maps.


Work on OpenRA's current map editor started somewhere around Jan 19, 2014. It got merged on May 18, 2015. It took them close 1.5 years to get it working and minor issues still pop up since. And they use their ingame already-existing functions for rendering assets and parsing the map format (which is the same between all 4 mods, including their TS mod) itself, which is like half of the work and something a new editor has no base library for.

Just because DTA disables terrain depth, it's still part of the map format - which you cannot remove from the format itself  - and I don't remember Starcraft having such tbh.

That and what Orac said. You clearly have no idea how much effort is needed for an editor.

_________________
"If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
=======================
Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
=======================
WeiDU mods: Random Graion Tweaks | Graion's Soundsets
Maintainance: Extra Expanded Enhanced Encounters! | BGEESpawn
Contributions: EE Fixpack | Enhanced Edition Trilogy | DSotSC (Trilogy) | UB_IWD | SotSC & a lot more...

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tomsons26lv
Cyborg Artillery


Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Location: Latvia

PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
He sold the editor to EA, EA gave a few internal game codes to optimize the editor (e.g. script and trigger work mechanisms and codes), now EA has the copyright.


Well no it was a lot more then that actually, it also wasn't really EA but WW, the Framework mode came from WW's internal map editor, so did the file format stuff.

I'd imagine that the reason EA doesn't want it released is something in it uses some proprietary EA code that is still used even today, that's the only real scenario that makes sense.

Altho is EA not sure if i should be thinking of anything that makes sense if there is probably none.

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Bittah Commander
Defense Minister


Joined: 21 May 2003
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 12:51 pm    Post subject: Re: "Starcraft" Custom Map Editor Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Missingno50 wrote:
I know this may sound weird, but could you perhaps replace or have a secondary map editor that resembles the built in one from Starcraft? I only want this since many people LOVE the Starcraft map editor, and while I know it will take a long time, I would still like to see this editor, as it was simple. Another option would be to go Red Alert 1 map editor style, but in total, FinalSun is not very easy to use when making maps like I need them to be. PS:Finalsun may be good at first, but seriously, HELP ME. FINALSUN doesn't like me, and is not good for first timer map creators.

I think the question of why we can't replace the map editor has pretty much been answered already.

Most TS mapping tutorials in the Mapping Tutorials Factory apply to DTA as well.
If none of these are of any help with what you're working on, just tell us what you're doing and exactly what you're trying to accomplish and we'd be glad to assist.

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^Rampastein
Rampastring


Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Location: Gensokyo

PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've always found FinalSun fairly easy to use for the most part. There are some annoying bugs and the UI is badly designed and far from effective (you need to move the cursor around a lot and navigate a lot of menus, and there's almost no hotkeys), but it's fairly straightforward to use.

But yeah, if you need help with anything specific, ask us. We're glad to help.

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Matthias M.
Stealth Laser Trooper


Joined: 15 Jun 2012
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
Orac wrote:
-FinalSun was built by talented amateurs many years ago, the source for it is lost, as is the source for Tiberian Sun, and nobody has yet come forward with the willingness to build a whole new editor from scratch.

small correction
FinalSun source code is still in Matthias Wagner's hands and he just can't release it, due to copyright issues. He sold the editor to EA, EA gave a few internal game codes to optimize the editor (e.g. script and trigger work mechanisms and codes), now EA has the copyright.

I asked Matze if we can get the source code, and he said only when EA gives his OK.
I then asked Olaf to forward the question to EA officials, if the editors source code can be released.
EA is a bitch and said "no", so we can't even get the source code for the editor which is by 95% build by Matze and other non-EA-programmers.


As it re-uses GPLv3 code from the XCC Utilities project I thought we could force the source code release using the Free Software card, but no luck as Olaf gave some special permissions. I was also told that the FinalSun source code has never been cleaned as maintenance or having others learn from it was never intended by anyone.

If you want a new vanilla RA2/TS map editor you would have to start from scratch. However https://github.com/zzattack/ccmaps-net which is a fairly good renderer might be of help to whoever wants to undertake that journey. Creating a robust map editor with good usability is a lot of and hard work, but definitely not impossible.

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tomsons26lv
Cyborg Artillery


Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Location: Latvia

PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

RP has been working on one actually, but hardly anyone is helping and wants to help so the progress is slow
https://github.com/Palmke

_________________
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https://picasaweb.google.com/113361105083292812413?noredirect=1

Skype live:tomsons26
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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

First time I see a github link. So far I only heard him working behind closed doors for his RA2 mod project.
A more public announcement would surely help making other people aware of this project and maybe offer some help.

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RP
Commander


Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Location: Mapping God Heaven

PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey! What's this all about?! #Tongue
Progress is slow indeed, and I want to do the public announcement when some render stuff is in.
Render stuff for SHP files is in, so theoretically it could work.

I'm busy with my internship, my friend is busy with exams so we're both not too active with it.
I plan to pick it up during the summer vacation and get refactoring done.

From what I saw, the map renderer creates the renders in a specific way which would make it not that suitable for a port to a map editor.
This could be the reason zzattack originally disposed of the idea to make it into a map editor.

@LKO: I have no RA2 mod project lol

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

RP wrote:
@LKO: I have no RA2 mod project lol

I thought you were working on Mental Omega or some other project and created this editor firstly with this mod in mind and only secondly for public usage. *argh my memory*

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RP
Commander


Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Location: Mapping God Heaven

PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ah yes, that.
It is designed with mod support such as Mental Omega in mind.
It's really an editor for RA2 and YR, with future plans to TS / FS as well.
The latter heavily relies on input from the community, as I can ask most YR stuff to AlexB.
Not just AlexB, but general information from YRPP is also useful, such as:
code wrote:
/*
Always wanted to see more about the internal structure? Lists are found here:
https://github.com/Ares-Developers/YRpp/blob/master/GeneralDefinitions.h
Gotta love the Ares guys
*/


Orac wrote:
-FinalSun was built by talented amateurs many years ago, the source for it is lost, as is the source for Tiberian Sun, and nobody has yet come forward with the willingness to build a whole new editor from scratch.


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/ppm/'s stupidity

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