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G-E
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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2016 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sir Modsalot wrote:
So you're not gonna answer my question. Got it. I'm done after this post until you do. All you're doing is looking for ANY contradicting interview to use as evidence against the DOZENS of SS members that ran the camps and admitted what they did and how. You're sandbagging and that's all you can do at this point, so this is over.

Dozens of turncoats who got plea deals for helping prosecute the Nazi leadership? You mean those SS? Or do you mean the ones that were tortured for confessions?

Do I have to remind you that people like Dr. Mengele (who was by many holocaustic accounts a "butcher") was given immunity and imported into America?

Or how about his Japanese counterpart Shiro Ishii? He was provably even more of a "butcher" since he dealt with biological warfare experiments, and he got immunity and a job too!

You seem to think who gets prosecuted is some measure of guilt...

PS. This was America...
Quote:
In Alabama, for example, 600 black men with syphilis were allowed to suffer without proper medical treatment in order to study the natural progression of untreated syphilis. In California, older prisoners had testicles from livestock and from recently executed convicts implanted in them to test their virility. In Connecticut, mental patients were injected with hepatitis.

In Maryland, sleeping prisoners had a pandemic flu virus sprayed up their noses. In Georgia, two dozen “volunteering” prison inmates had gonorrhea bacteria pumped directly into their urinary tracts through the penis. In Michigan, male patients at an insane asylum were exposed to the flu after first being injected with an experimental flu vaccine. In Minnesota, 11 public service employee “volunteers” were injected with malaria, then starved for five days.

In New York, dying patients had cancer cells introduced into their systems. In Ohio, over 100 inmates were injected with live cancer cells. Also in New York, prisoners at a reformatory prison were also split into two groups to determine how a deadly stomach virus was spread: the first group was made to swallow an unfiltered stool suspension, while the second group merely breathed in germs sprayed into the air. And in Staten Island, children with mental retardation were given hepatitis orally and by injection to see if they could then be cured.

As the Associated Press reports, “The late 1940s and 1950s saw huge growth in the U.S. pharmaceutical and health care industries, accompanied by a boom in prisoner experiments funded by both the government and corporations. By the 1960s, at least half the states allowed prisoners to be used as medical guinea pigs … because they were cheaper than chimpanzees.”

Moreover, “Some of these studies, mostly from the 1940s to the '60s, apparently were never covered by news media. Others were reported at the time, but the focus was on the promise of enduring new cures, while glossing over how test subjects were treated.”

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Sir Modsalot
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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2016 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
Dozens of turncoats who got plea deals for helping prosecute the Nazi leadership? You mean those SS? Or do you mean the ones that were tortured for confessions?


A plea deal doesn't invalidate the validity of testimony if it's corroborated by recovered documents kept by camp workers that didn't live long enough to be captured, or avoided capture entirely (and not just them). Same with testimony forced out through torture. Some of the SS officers did only say what people wanted to hear so they'd stop being tortured, but this doesn't invalidate what happened, nor does it invalidate the testimony of those that were treated more fairly. The testimony entries in the link were given by camp staff that had NOT undergone extensive torture, as well.

G-E wrote:
Do I have to remind you that people like Dr. Mengele (who was by many holocaustic accounts a "butcher") was given immunity and imported into America?


For the last time, stop making shit up. You're not even making a real effort to make it believable anymore.

Quote:
Mengele was initially registered under his own name, but because of the disorganization of the Allies regarding the distribution of wanted lists and the fact that Mengele did not have the usual SS blood group tattoo, he was not identified as being on the major war criminal list. He was released at the end of July and obtained false papers under the name "Fritz Ullman", documents he later altered to read "Fritz Hollmann".


G-E wrote:
Or how about his Japanese counterpart Shiro Ishii? He was provably even more of a "butcher" since he dealt with biological warfare experiments, and he got immunity and a job too!


He was given immunity in exchange for information that the Allies and Soviets thought would have been invaluable, but later turned out to be almost worthless. This was a simple (if massive) error in judgment on the part of the Allies, but it doesn't really help your case. Nor does it help that there's conflicting information on what happened to him after that, since it's also suggested that he stayed in Japan to work as a doctor instead of going to the US.

G-E wrote:
You seem to think who gets prosecuted is some measure of guilt...


You seem to think you still have solid ground to stand on here. Just give it up already. The Allied soldiers and surviving prisoners all had their own testimony and evidence to multiple camps being meant for use (and used) as concentration and death camps. There were also, again, specific camps and subcamps of larger camps specifically documented and designated by the Nazis as, again, extermination camps. As in, new arrivals are ALL put to death en masse in gas chambers. No labor, no nothing. You've had plenty of chances to disprove their existence but you've written them off as "morgues with showers", so you have no credibility left here. Let me know when you're ready to give up on this.

G-E wrote:
PS. This was America...


I'm well aware of all of that. It isn't helping your case.
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Volgin
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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2016 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm shocked you don't deny Tuskegee happened.
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G-E
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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2016 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sir Modsalot wrote:
A plea deal doesn't invalidate the validity of testimony if it's corroborated by recovered documents kept by camp workers that didn't live long enough to be captured, or avoided capture entirely (and not just them). Same with testimony forced out through torture. Some of the SS officers did only say what people wanted to hear so they'd stop being tortured, but this doesn't invalidate what happened, nor does it invalidate the testimony of those that were treated more fairly.

Let's say I agree with you in theory, it also makes it less than reliable. Many of the confessions for example were given by people who supposedly committed suicide (in custody) right after. Again this isn't proof of anything, but it's highly suspect, and makes believing anything they say impossible at face value.

You also didn't bother to read into any of the admissions they made, because for example Rudolf Hoss admitted to killing 3 million Jews at his camp, yet the current guesstimate according to the museum itself is around 1.2 million _persons_ total died there. Obviously both of these can't be true, but they can both certainly be false.

Sir Modsalot wrote:
He was given immunity in exchange for information that the Allies and Soviets thought would have been invaluable, but later turned out to be almost worthless. This was a simple (if massive) error in judgment on the part of the Allies, but it doesn't really help your case.

I'm sorry I wasn't saying he was useful, I'm saying he was hired by the American govt precisely because he was the type of guy they like: murderous and amoral, with a hint of insanity.

Sir Modsalot wrote:
G-E wrote:
You seem to think who gets prosecuted is some measure of guilt...

You seem to think you still have solid ground to stand on here. Just give it up already. The Allied soldiers and surviving prisoners all had their own testimony and evidence to multiple camps being meant for use (and used) as concentration and death camps.  *snip*

Steven Spielberg's own organization conducted over 50000 videotaped interviews of "survivors" and hardly any of them could agree, on the same facts, in the same place, at the same time. You might be able to suggest that they are old and senile, their memory faded over time, forgetting minute details, or dates, but the basic facts of one or two important days wouldn't go away so easily.

You need to watch that 4 part series I included a few posts back, listen to their interviews. Ignore the commentary and focus on the testimony, then ask yourself do these people sound like they lived in a "death camp" not 200 yards from the "gas chambers" and Jewish bakery?
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Sir Modsalot
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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2016 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
Let's say I agree with you in theory, it also makes it less than reliable. Many of the confessions for example were given by people who supposedly committed suicide (in custody) right after. Again this isn't proof of anything, but it's highly suspect, and makes believing anything they say impossible at face value.


Being highly suspect is also not proof of anything. You're extrapolating conclusions that don't exist from information that does. Did you work for David Blaine at some point?

G-E wrote:
You also didn't bother to read into any of the admissions they made, because for example Rudolf Hoss admitted to killing 3 million Jews at his camp, yet the current guesstimate according to the museum itself is around 1.2 million _persons_ total died there. Obviously both of these can't be true, but they can both certainly be false.


You're still making shit up. Good god, please stop already. Hoess stated in his testimony that he DID NOT keep records of how many people were even in the camp because he wasn't allowed to, and the person that WAS responsible for record-keeping claimed to Hoess that over 2 million Jews were killed at the camp, not 3. The validity of that claim isn't entirely sound, as you point out, and we can't know exactly how many died there because of that (though the number would still be enormous), but at least you're acknowledging what the museum says.

G-E wrote:
I'm sorry I wasn't saying he was useful, I'm saying he was hired by the American govt precisely because he was the type of guy they like: murderous and amoral, with a hint of insanity.


You're stating an unconfirmed story as fact. Again, there's conflicting information about this. Nobody's 100% sure what actually happened to him, so don't pretend you know.

G-E wrote:
Steven Spielberg's own organization conducted over 50000 videotaped interviews of "survivors" and hardly any of them could agree, on the same facts, in the same place, at the same time. You might be able to suggest that they are old and senile, their memory faded over time, forgetting minute details, or dates, but the basic facts of one or two important days wouldn't go away so easily.


Did you consider the possibility that they didn't (and still don't) WANT to remember? I would have forced myself to forget over time if I'd gone through what they did, and I'm sure I'm not alone in that sentiment.

G-E wrote:
You need to watch that 4 part series I included a few posts back, listen to their interviews. Ignore the commentary and focus on the testimony, then ask yourself do these people sound like they lived in a "death camp" not 200 yards from the "gas chambers" and Jewish bakery?


You need to stop pretending that that series is more valuable than actual evidence of camp operations, including SS documents kept regarding them that were recovered after the fact. How much longer are you going to keep this up?
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G-E
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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2016 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sir Modsalot wrote:
G-E wrote:
Let's say I agree with you in theory, it also makes it less than reliable. Many of the confessions for example were given by people who supposedly committed suicide (in custody) right after. Again this isn't proof of anything, but it's highly suspect, and makes believing anything they say impossible at face value.

Being highly suspect is also not proof of anything. You're extrapolating conclusions that don't exist from information that does. Did you work for David Blaine at some point?

You clearly don't understand how military tribunals work when they have an end result in mind. It was no different for Saddam Hussein's or Slobodan Milosevich's trial, witnesses were full of shit, bribed, or suddenly dead. If you ever stopped to ask yourself why someone would release a confession and _then_ kill themselves while in custody? Because his death was helped along by someone who didn't want him to recant later... as Hoss kinda sorta did when he said he would have said anything. Most real historians have already given up on Hoss as a credible witness for this reason, but please blame me...

Sir Modsalot wrote:
You're still making shit up. Good god, please stop already. Hoess stated in his testimony that he DID NOT keep records of how many people were even in the camp because he wasn't allowed to, and the person that WAS responsible for record-keeping claimed to Hoess that over 2 million Jews were killed at the camp, not 3. The validity of that claim isn't entirely sound, as you point out, and we can't know exactly how many died there *snip*

So let's say you're right and we can't know, is that good enough reason to charge a regime with GENOCIDE? How would you like to be charged with a murder you probably committed according to people who didn't see you do it? The fact that you can't see the double standard puzzles me.

Sir Modsalot wrote:
Did you consider the possibility that they didn't (and still don't) WANT to remember? I would have forced myself to forget over time if I'd gone through what they did, and I'm sure I'm not alone in that sentiment.

I would consider that possibility if they hadn't come forward and given video testimony, and vividly described all sorts of things that couldn't have happened. As I said, I'm perfectly willing to believe many forgot elements, and maybe even exaggerated a few points that made a bigger impression on them, but the scale of absurdity rules this out.

Sir Modsalot wrote:
You need to stop pretending that that series is more valuable than actual evidence of camp operations, including SS documents kept regarding them that were recovered after the fact. How much longer are you going to keep this up?

Wait you just said we can't know? If we had such detailed records recovered where are they and why has no one read them?

In fact, show me some official German documentation from either the Nazis or their suppliers, regarding the purchase and construction of any gas chambers... seriously, go look, I'll be here all week.
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Volgin
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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2016 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ztyping read Mein Kampf, Hitler, HITLER, lays out his general love and affection (ugh) to Jews pretty succinctly if you can get past his overdramatic writing style.
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
Most real historians have already given up on Hoss as a credible witness for this reason, but please blame me...


I'll blame you for being illogical and ignorant. That's as far as I need to go.

G-E wrote:
So let's say you're right and we can't know, is that good enough reason to charge a regime with GENOCIDE?


Yes, it is. Because we have fair estimations of how many were killed at each camp; not just the Jews, but the racial and ethnic minorities kept at the camps.

G-E wrote:
How would you like to be charged with a murder you probably committed according to people who didn't see you do it? The fact that you can't see the double standard puzzles me.


The fact that you're still giving me the runaround about this and continuing to deny genocide is the truly puzzling thing.

G-E wrote:
I would consider that possibility if they hadn't come forward and given video testimony, and vividly described all sorts of things that couldn't have happened. As I said, I'm perfectly willing to believe many forgot elements, and maybe even exaggerated a few points that made a bigger impression on them, but the scale of absurdity rules this out.


Compare the number of survivors to the number of survivors that came forward for interviews and testimony. The true scale of absurdity is that you and others like you are still at it after this many years.

G-E wrote:
Wait you just said we can't know? If we had such detailed records recovered where are they and why has no one read them?


This has to be the dumbest thing you've said since you registered. I'm not repeating myself again just to humor you, I'm starting to think you don't deserve that much because you're not absorbing any facts. It's as if you've been given a pineapple, and you shave and spray-paint it to look like a bowling ball and you insist until you're out of breath that you were given a bowling ball to begin with. I'm getting tired of this crap.

G-E wrote:
In fact, show me some official German documentation from either the Nazis or their suppliers, regarding the purchase and construction of any gas chambers... seriously, go look, I'll be here all week.


I will if you show me official documentation by SS officers and camp workers that the gas chambers were morgues with showers. It's been on you this entire time to prove that, and you haven't been able to. I know you can't.
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FurryQueen
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Atomic_Noodles wrote:
So what exactly is the goal of this discussion? Is it to imply that the Nazi's were some heroic Faction compared to ISIS or something?

g-e is either trolling us super hard or he's a fuckin' Neo-Nazi.
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FurryQueen wrote:
Atomic_Noodles wrote:
So what exactly is the goal of this discussion? Is it to imply that the Nazi's were some heroic Faction compared to ISIS or something?

g-e is either trolling us super hard or he's a fuckin' Neo-Nazi.


Unfortunately, he really is a Neo-Nazi.

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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee wrote:
Unfortunately, he really is a Neo-Nazi.

If he's not, he's sure as hell acting like one.
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G-E
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sir Modsalot wrote:
G-E wrote:
In fact, show me some official German documentation from either the Nazis or their suppliers, regarding the purchase and construction of any gas chambers... seriously, go look, I'll be here all week.

I will if you show me official documentation by SS officers and camp workers that the gas chambers were morgues with showers. It's been on you this entire time to prove that, and you haven't been able to. I know you can't.

Don't be retarded, the blueprints for the underground Auchwitz "gas chambers" say corpse cellar on them, it is you who have to prove otherwise...

Quote:
The incineration hall with the five triple-muffle furnaces occupies the center of the building (1). To the right are the fuel storeroom (2) and the rooms for the inmates working the installation (3); to the left are the two dissection rooms (4 and 5) and the two-door elevator (6) opening onto both the incineration hall and the first dissection room. The elevator descends into a vestibule that is connected to the outside by two staircases and a chute for corpses (7). The two large morgues (8 and 9) extend far beyond the footprint of the building. One of the morgues is equipped with a double ventilation system (10) to draw in fresh air and extract foul odors.  This piping made it possible to transform the morgue into a gas chamber with little effort. N.B.: This is an axonometric drawing; the three-dimensional effect is derived from the exact measurements and angles of the original plan.  See plate 16."(Dwork & Van Pelt, pg.270)

The above is from the Jew library, they editorialized the blueprint by including a gas chamber story. However, according to the holocaust testimonials, the fresh air ducts as described had nothing to do with the supposed gassing, which was done by special holes in the roof -- holes which were never found in the wreckage by the way.

The important point is they unequivocally describe the blueprints (which they won't show in high quality lest you draw different conclusions) that the morgues were indeed morgues below the crematorium, one of which was equipped with shower facilities. The logistical nightmare of having panicky new arrivals thinking they will all be killed would have made orderly undressing and showering impossible without their fellow Sondercommandos guiding them through the process of course.

Do you not see the irony that if the holocaust narrative was accurate, the Sondercommandos should have all been guilty as accomplices to mass murder?

PS. The gaskammer facilities mentioned (if you manage to find them) are the de-lousing buildings... no one disputes those.
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Sir Modsalot
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
Don't be retarded, the blueprints for the underground Auchwitz "gas chambers" say corpse cellar on them, it is you who have to prove otherwise...

Quote:
The incineration hall with the five triple-muffle furnaces occupies the center of the building (1). To the right are the fuel storeroom (2) and the rooms for the inmates working the installation (3); to the left are the two dissection rooms (4 and 5) and the two-door elevator (6) opening onto both the incineration hall and the first dissection room. The elevator descends into a vestibule that is connected to the outside by two staircases and a chute for corpses (7). The two large morgues (8 and 9) extend far beyond the footprint of the building. One of the morgues is equipped with a double ventilation system (10) to draw in fresh air and extract foul odors.  This piping made it possible to transform the morgue into a gas chamber with little effort. N.B.: This is an axonometric drawing; the three-dimensional effect is derived from the exact measurements and angles of the original plan.  See plate 16."(Dwork & Van Pelt, pg.270)


"retarded". Such a lovely word. I could just as easily use it to describe how you believe that the gas chambers were underground. They weren't. The corpse cellars were for temporary storage of bodies that weren't immediately cremated, and could have indeed been converted into gas chambers, but the horrific efficiency of the existing ones made that unnecessary. Props for putting in the effort for once, but you're still producing imaginary conclusions from real data.

G-E wrote:
The above is from the Jew library, they editorialized the blueprint by including a gas chamber story. However, according to the holocaust testimonials, the fresh air ducts as described had nothing to do with the supposed gassing, which was done by special holes in the roof -- holes which were never found in the wreckage by the way.


You expect a roof to remain intact enough to identify holes for ventilation systems after a bombing/totally destructive fire? You're just hunting for any little thing you can get now, aren't you?

G-E wrote:
The important point is they unequivocally describe the blueprints (which they won't show in high quality lest you draw different conclusions) that the morgues were indeed morgues below the crematorium, one of which was equipped with shower facilities. The logistical nightmare of having panicky new arrivals thinking they will all be killed would have made orderly undressing and showering impossible without their fellow Sondercommandos guiding them through the process of course.


You're apparently not looking for the gas chambers in the blueprints, then. All you did was look for morgues and claim that those were the "gas chambers" and that the real gas chambers didn't exist. Does this bullshit story of yours have an end?

G-E wrote:
Do you not see the irony that if the holocaust narrative was accurate, the Sondercommandos should have all been guilty as accomplices to mass murder?


Terminology error: Sonderkommandos were the work camp units made up of prisoners. SS-Sonderkommandos is probably what you meant. To actually answer your question, many of the SS-SKs were killed by higher SS officers themselves because they knew too much; some avoided being killed by mixing themselves in with the prisoners in the identification records. As for the tens of thousands of others that escaped capture and re-integrated into post-war German society, there's some light reading over here to answer that.

G-E wrote:
PS. The gaskammer facilities mentioned (if you manage to find them) are the de-lousing buildings... no one disputes those.


You're again using the existence of one piece of architecture to try to disprove the existence of another. BOTH existed. Prisoners were stripped, their CLOTHES sent to the de-lousing/disinfection buildings (which usually used steam, though sometimes gas), and the prisoners sent to the actual gas chambers.
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sir Modsalot wrote:
"retarded". Such a lovely word. I could just as easily use it to describe how you believe that the gas chambers were underground. They weren't. The corpse cellars were for temporary storage of bodies that weren't immediately cremated. Props for putting in the effort, but you're still producing imaginary conclusions from real data.

You're right the real gaskammer was a separate facility for the clothes, but that's not where the holocaust story says the people were gassed, that was supposed to happen adjacent to the undressing room, in a converted morgue. How can you keep changing your story like that, or alternately, how can you believe contradictions?

Sir Modsalot wrote:
You expect a roof to remain intact enough to identify holes for ventilation systems after a bombing/totally destructive fire? You're just hunting for any little thing you can get now, aren't you?

Have you ever seen a reinforced concrete building hastily blown up? Things like window frames (especially with metal in them) always survive in clearly identifiable chunks. Or did you think everything gets pulverized into dust like the WTC? hahah

Sir Modsalot wrote:
You're apparently not looking for the gas chambers in the blueprints, then. All you did was look for morgues and claim that those were the "gas chambers" and that the real gas chambers didn't exist. Does this bullshit story of yours have an end?

I'm not saying anything, I've read the editorials/articles that go with the pictures, using their words. The fact that you argue with me and them doesn't help your case.

Sir Modsalot wrote:
Terminology error: Sonderkommandos were the work camp units made up of prisoners. SS-Sonderkommandos is probably what you meant. To actually answer your question, many of the SS-SKs were killed by higher SS officers themselves because they knew too much; some avoided being killed by mixing themselves in with the prisoners in the identification records.

What exactly does escaping the Communists' wrath have anything to do with gassing or Jews?

Sir Modsalot wrote:
You're again using the existence of one piece of architecture to try to disprove the existence of another. BOTH existed. Prisoners were stripped, their CLOTHES sent to the de-lousing/disinfection buildings (which usually used steam, though sometimes gas), and the prisoners sent to the actual gas chambers.

Like I said, find me the blueprints for those OTHER GAS CHAMBERS. I haven't found any, and I looked many times over the years.
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G-E
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here you go I found pictures of the blowed up things, to show you how poorly they were destroyed...

https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2011/08/08/the-undressing-rooms-at-auschwitz-were-larger-than-the-gas-chambers/

Now that's just a blog post of a guy who's trying to rationalize what a stupid design the whole setup is to kill people, so he goes on to re-imagine how it was done or should have been done. In the one sense he's right, if the Germans had actually been interested in doing what he said, they would have streamlined the process as the author attempts to do.

Interestingly he does mention the vestibule as a place where officers stood to watch people die, which is in line with some of the holocaust narratives, yet forgets to mention that there was no air-tight door there. He also doesn't see any method to clear out any gas or cyanic compound residue that would accumulate from having to drag bodies back out of the doorway through the vestibule to the elevator, but who cares about safety right?

Here's a recent miraculous discovery just in case we forgot to believe the bullshit, more evidence-ish stuff:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-auschwitz-idUSTRE4A71SC20081109

Quote:
The original construction plans believed used for a major expansion of the Nazi death camp at Auschwitz in 1941 have been found in a Berlin flat, Germany's Bild newspaper reported on Saturday.

The daily printed three architect's drawings on yellowing paper from the batch of 28 pages of blueprints it obtained. One has an 11.66 meter by 11.20 meter room marked "Gaskammer" (gas chamber) that was part of a "delousing facility."

No one from the federal government's archives was immediately available for comment on the authenticity or importance of the documents.

Well that proves everything doesn't it?! That's louse genocide right there!

How about the Mottogno report that says the Leuchter report underestimated the cremation capacity of Auchwitz, and the only other one that attempted to follow the same trail was the Pressac report, which estimated too high (because he was making the intended end result work). I posted a IHR report/critique of Pressac's report earlier if you look up a page or so, which more or less falls inline with this one, in that the truth was somewhere between:

http://codoh.com/library/document/921/

While it's a long document, he compares tons of creatorium oven designs of the era, and those even earlier, right up to war's end. Leuchter used modern oven designs for coffin cremations as his basis, which use air injection to enflame the wood, but slows overall cooking by cooling combustion too. So it's understandable.

Having seem all the docs, my estimate that it was between 40-55min per body, and used about 1/3 of the bodyweight in coke to fire the ovens. This gave them a capacity of around 350-500 bodies per day, which is much higher than Leucther's estimate of 156, but well below the thousands speculated by Pressac et al.

We know this because of the Topf design specs at the end of the war for future ovens as a maximum efficiency, which weren't actually produced. There were liquid fuel shortages all over Germany because of the war, so coke was the only real option after 1941, any other method or efficiency is therefore irrelevant.

Now take a look at the aerial photo of the camp, and tell me if the gassing and burning facilities seem a weee bit small relative to the population of 280000. Even the de-lousing facilities seem rather small for their intended purpose, but you have to keep in mind the original camp was for much fewer people, and it was expanded throughout the war.
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Sir Modsalot
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
You're right the real gaskammer was a separate facility for the clothes, but that's not where the holocaust story says the people were gassed, that was supposed to happen adjacent to the undressing room, in a converted morgue. How can you keep changing your story like that, or alternately, how can you believe contradictions?


You're the one contradicting yourself. Why are YOU changing YOUR story? I haven't changed mine, I've only added information. Again, all of it happened.

G-E wrote:
Have you ever seen a reinforced concrete building hastily blown up? Things like window frames (especially with metal in them) always survive in clearly identifiable chunks. Or did you think everything gets pulverized into dust like the WTC? hahah


You seem to be changing your story again. Looks like I can get to that part of it in the next post (why the shit did you double-post?), so moving on.

G-E wrote:
I'm not saying anything, I've read the editorials/articles that go with the pictures, using their words. The fact that you argue with me and them doesn't help your case.


I wasn't arguing with the editorials/articles. I'm saying, again, that you're making shit up based on what they said. Which you ARE.

G-E wrote:
What exactly does escaping the Communists' wrath have anything to do with gassing or Jews?


In that context? Not a whole lot. But it seems like you're forcing a new angle on the story that wasn't intended. Moving on.

G-E wrote:
Like I said, find me the blueprints for those OTHER GAS CHAMBERS. I haven't found any, and I looked many times over the years.


So because you couldn't find them, you believe they don't exist, and that as such the chambers didn't exist. That's almost funny. Almost. Let's start here, shall we? The blueprints of Bunker 2 and Crematorium 3* are in this album, though the user didn't mark which was which: http://s212.photobucket.com/user/smeerder/library/Auschwitz?sort=3&page=1

*They were designated Crematoriums in units 3, 4, and 5 as they were hybrid facilities that had crematoriums one room over from the gas chambers, rather than having them in separate buildings. Photos and design descriptions of units 4 and 5 are further down on this page. Getting it yet?

G-E wrote:
Here you go I found pictures of the blowed up things, to show you how poorly they were destroyed...

https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2011/08/08/the-undressing-rooms-at-auschwitz-were-larger-than-the-gas-chambers/

Now that's just a blog post of a guy who's trying to rationalize what a stupid design the whole setup is to kill people, so he goes on to re-imagine how it was done or should have been done. In the one sense he's right, if the Germans had actually been interested in doing what he said, they would have streamlined the process as the author attempts to do.


A supposedly inefficient design doesn't mean it didn't exist. You're just grasping at straws again.

G-E wrote:
Interestingly he does mention the vestibule as a place where officers stood to watch people die, which is in line with some of the holocaust narratives, yet forgets to mention that there was no air-tight door there. He also doesn't see any method to clear out any gas or cyanic compound residue that would accumulate from having to drag bodies back out of the doorway through the vestibule to the elevator, but who cares about safety right?


The chambers at Auschwitz-Birkenau were initially poorly designed, but it seems like that's all you care about. They were redesigned later on to match the spec of the other death camps.

G-E wrote:
Here's a recent miraculous discovery just in case we forgot to believe the bullshit, more evidence-ish stuff:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-auschwitz-idUSTRE4A71SC20081109

Well that proves everything doesn't it?! That's louse genocide right there!


You're changing your story again. Notice how "delousing facility" sits in quotes like I just did? That's what's known as covering something up, or at least trying. The existence of the chambers was meant to be a state secret at the time, so obviously they wouldn't actually label them that on the blueprints. It would also help if you read the whole article instead of just stopping at the one part that could have remotely helped your argument.

Quote:
"These documents reveal that everyone who had even anything remotely to do with the planning and construction of the concentration camp must have know that people were to be gassed to death in assembly-line fashion," Bild wrote.

"The documents refute once and for all claims by those who deny the Holocaust even took place," it added.


We done here? Oh wait, guess not. There's quite a bit I don't need to get into, but let's see about this:

G-E wrote:
Now take a look at the aerial photo of the camp, and tell me if the gassing and burning facilities seem a weee bit small relative to the population of 280000. Even the de-lousing facilities seem rather small for their intended purpose, but you have to keep in mind the original camp was for much fewer people, and it was expanded throughout the war.


You're a dumbass if you think they planned ahead properly, moreso if you think poor initial planning meant the camps stayed the same throughout the war. Only several hundred a day could be handled at first, with gassings taking place every few hours. The Birkenau camp handled the majority of gassings after the additional facilities became operational, and with all 5 active they could do several thousand a day. The new crematoriums in each building were also of higher capacity, but still not high enough, resulting in the open-pit burning I already mentioned before.

Now are we done?
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G-E
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Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pretty much everything you said in that last post amounts to the buzzing of flies over a steaming pile of shit.

You said the former Nazis pretended to be captives to blend in with the crowd and escape, I'm 100% sure some did. Only you suggest that's because they were evil, whereas I suggest they were being practical, and that you're the one making shit up because you're deliberately reading into things that aren't there.

Do you remember that it was the Communists that defeated the Nazis, and it was the Communists that Hitler declared his pogroms for, to rid Germany of the Communists and moral corruption? Just what do you think the Communists were going to do to captured Nazis? Again, do you think the Germans were stupid?

Same with the missing gas chamber blueprints (which your photobucket link adds nothing to) where you think it was some secret conspiracy with lots of winking and nudging, when the more obvious answer is there wasn't any conspiracy because every facility was as advertized. De-lousing facilities were for de-lousing, morgues were morgues, but then you can't even keep your "facts" straight; one post you argue the gas chamber is above ground, the next you argue it's the mislabeled morgue below ground.

Remember evidence before hearsay, all you have is hearsay.

The link I posted clearly shows those underground antechambers were morgues. You were the one who said there's all this evidence, and all you do show is the evidence that backs up my version... c'mon I thought you were going to try?


So yes, where you see an inefficient design as being plausible, I see a design that was fine for it's actual purpose, the transit and storage of dead bodies from typhus outbreaks prior to cremation. You think the blueprints are all some pre-planned conspiracy to hide their intentions, when up until 1942 we could say they were handily winning the war. Not just that but if I'm right, their cremation capacity closely matches the daily deathtoll at the height of the typhus epidemic, which is when the mad scramble to bring more crematoria online happened.

See I'm not the one grasping for straws, you are, you and others have to constantly find creative justifications for everything because the evidence isn't making it easy. This is the problem with being a holocaust believer, or 9/11 believer, your brain has to rationalize all the contradictions into a cohesive story that isn't cohesive when it's all said.

Remember the Leuchter guy with the multiple degrees, patents, and decades of work the the American govt, the guy who designed gas chambers and other lethal devices, specifically said there was no gas chambers adequate for killing humans on any scale? Like literally the most qualified man on the planet examines the ruins and does lab analyses of samples he took. To you he's just some internet warrior in his mom's basement, yet he should be one of the few people you actually believe.

Please, show me facts, not hyperbole. I will believe anything if you show me enough evidence.
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Isaac_The_Madd
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was literal marked gas chamber G-E, are you blind as well as blind to reality.

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G-E
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Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isaac_The_Madd wrote:
It was literal marked gas chamber G-E, are you blind as well as blind to reality.

Either you haven't been following, or following the wrong thing....  the de-lousing section of building, was called a gaskammer.


See the barracks and train cars on the brochures as applications?


And here's the dis-infestation chamber, the discolouring is the cyanic compounds reacting with the minerals.
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G-E
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2016 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Max Planck Institute for Demographic Research: 1 million overall (Jew) deaths.

Jochen Fleischhacker

Jochen Fleischhacker is Senior Research Scientist, Max Planck Institute for Demographic Research, Rostock (Germany). He is co-editor, with R. Münz of Gesellschaft und Bevölkerung in Mittelund Osteuropa im Umbruch (Berlin, 1998).

Combining Nazi statistics with postwar demographic data for former forced laborers in the German economy during World War II, twenty countries reveals that the number of foreigners deployed in the German economy totaled around 13.5 million, of whom approximately 11 million survived the war. (Max Planck Institute for Demographic Research: MIT Press Journals - Journal of Interdisciplinary History - Abstract)

2.5 million deaths of forced workers (pay was variable). 40% were estimated to be Jews which where the 1 million overall figure comes out.

MIT Press Journals - Journal of Interdisciplinary History - Abstract


Quote:
Here is a documentation of Jews in factories.

The SS offered Jewish slaves for hire to large German factories and industries such as, glass works, textile factories, and iron works. [1]

Marion Kaplan writes, "All Jewish men between 18 and 55 and Jewish women between 18 and 50 had to register with the division in charge of forced labor in their communities" Many Jewish women were forced to work in various factories in Europe. [2]

"The SS offered Jewish slaves for hire to large German factories and industries such as stone quarries, coalmines, glass works, textile factories, brickyards, and iron works. Holocaust survivors claimed they had to work under Allied bombing raids." [3]

485 RAF Lancasters bombed the Simens AG factories in Berlin.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...er_Hamburg.jpg


Case Study of Siemens AG

250,000 total in factories: w4.siemens.de (Siemens removed page, data stands)

50,000 Jews in Siemens factories: refresh

Nov 22/23 - 5 Siemens AG factories bombed: http://www.raf.mod.uk/bombercommand/nov43.html

Dec 2/3 - 2 Siemens AG factories bombed: http://www.raf.mod.uk/bombercommand/dec43.html

2,200 Jews survive: Business and International Crimes - Fafo/Forced labor- Enslavement

Jewish Organization sues Siemens: worldfreeinternet.net


This gives us a base sample for percentages of Jews who died in the German factories from Allied bombing.

With Siemen's there were 2,200 Jew survivor claimants out of a total of 50,000 Jews of a Siemens AG workforce of 250,000. Just the Jews is 2,200 out of 50,000 which means 98% of all Jews in the Siemens AG factories died. 2% of all Jews in the Siemens AG factories survived the Allied bombings. Based on Siemens figures and Jewish claims.


GERMAN FACTORIES - JEWISH LABOR CLAIMS

List of German Industrial Companies Holding Millions of Jews as Slave Labor under the Allied Bombing.

1. Allianz
2. BASF
3. Braunkohle-Benzin A.G.
4. Daimler Chrysler
5. Hoechst
6. Austrian construction firms of H. Rella and A. Porr.
7. Büssing had employed concentration camp labor at its Braunschweig (Brunswick) plant to manufacture trucks for the Germany army.
8. BMW
9. Ernst Heinkel A.G.- Oranienburg factory for 24 months while a prisoner at the Sachsenhausen concentration camp.
10. Bayer
11. Rheinmetall-Borsig AG - was the second largest armaments producer for the Third Reich and had employed forced laborers in its munitions plants, paid a total of 1,507 claimants. (which correlated with the Siemens case, comes out to 42,000 Jew deaths in the factory bombings)
12. Volkswagen
13. Leonhard Moll AG. (Munich), Philipp Holzman AG. (Frankfurt), Industrial construction of factories.
14. Dresdner Bank
15. Daimler-Benz automobile company - 300-plus company conglomerate.
16. Telefunken AG -The amount was split between 2,223 survivors. (55,575 Jewish deaths in Allied bombings) estimates based on the Siemens AG study.
17. Degussa-Huels
18. The Krupp Concern - Records show that 3,090 survivors (77,250 Jewish deaths in Allied bombing raids)
19. Deutsche Industrie-Werke GmbH - 3,600 survivors (90,000 Jewish deaths in Allied bombing raids)
20. AEG Kabelwerk Oberspree - 1,237 survivors (30,925 Jewish deaths in Allied bombings)
21. Hammerwerke, Haspe Gebr. Kettler GmbH & Co. KG (Unknown number of 17- 18,000 total)
22. Eisen- und Tempergiesserei Fried. Eduard Gerhards GmbH & Co. (Unknown number of 17000-18000 total)
23. Hagener Feinstahl GmbH (Unknown number of 17- 18,000 total)

More than 6,000 German companies have contributed to the Foundation, including Deutsche Bank, Volkswagen, Daimler-Benz, Bayer, Siemens, and Krupp. . 40% of slave labor was Jewish [8]


SURVIVORS/KILLED 1/22, or 2% survial to 98% death. We can extrapolate the amount killed by the survivor numbers.

Working from offical Jewish records of survivor labor claims from this source [4][5][6], which is from the 1949 ITS Arolsen records. [7].
We take the labor claims survivor of Jews, multiply the survivor number by x 1.22.

Deutsche Industrie-Werke GmbH - 90,000 Jews holocausted, 3,600 survivor Jew claims.
Krupp factories - 77,250 Jews holocausted
Telfunken AG - 55,575 Jews holocausted
Siemens AG - 48,007 Jews holocausted, 2,200 survivor Jew claims.
AEG Kabelwerk Oberspree - 30,925 Jews holocausted

_______________________________
Total for 5 companies = 301,107 Jews holocausted (incinterated in Allied bombing).


13.5 million forced laborers, 11 million survived the war.[7]

2.5 million forced laborers died in the war.

40% of them were Jewish. [8]

So the total Jews was likely 1 million who died. 850,000 in factories (Allied bombing) and 150,000 in camps (Typhus, starvation).

Program for Former Slave and Forced Laborers. In August 2004, the Claims Conference distributed a second payment to all eligible living Holocaust survivors who had applied, effectively concluding the program's payments to survivors. In one day, approximately $401 million was sent to 130,681 survivors in 62 countries.[9]

With 130,000 slave labor survivor claims, at the 1/22 ratio is 2,860,000 deaths. With 40% Jewish is close to 1 million Jewish deaths.

The March 4, 1939 Decree Regarding Employment of Jews led to the forced labor of Jews in Germany. The plan was implemented in coordination with German businesses that would then integrate camp labor into their industries. Dachau, for instance, established over 30 satellites near armaments factories in southern Germany, employing 30,000 prisoners in the production of armaments.[10]

In conclusion, the total Jewish deaths was about 1 million with 850,000 occuring in the factories under the Allied bombing.

In the Holocaust, 850,000 Jews were killed in factories by Allied bombing, incinerated. 150,000 more died in the camps. Who was responsible for the Allied bombing? The Jew Morgenthau.

Morgenthau pushed for bombing of factories and then later cities, railroads, canals, anything that could carry food. A Jew, Morgenthau, was responsible for the "Holocaust".

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Sir Modsalot
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Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Location: Mixing psilocybin in your drinks.

PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2016 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not getting into the numbers again, that's a dead horse that you're trying to zombify. And quit with the frigging double-posting.

G-E wrote:
Pretty much everything you said in that last post amounts to the buzzing of flies over a steaming pile of shit.


That steaming pile of shit is your ignorance. It can only last so long.

G-E wrote:
You said the former Nazis pretended to be captives to blend in with the crowd and escape, I'm 100% sure some did. Only you suggest that's because they were evil, whereas I suggest they were being practical, and that you're the one making shit up because you're deliberately reading into things that aren't there.


I'm going to say this once more in fully-formatted caps: STOP MAKING SHIT UP. I didn't say what you said I did, knock it the hell off before I start joining the call to just plain ban you.

What I actually said wrote:
...many of the SS-SKs were killed by higher SS officers themselves because they knew too much; some avoided being killed by mixing themselves in with the prisoners in the identification records


They were STILL part of the SS when they fled their superiors, that's why they fled in the first place.

G-E wrote:
Do you remember that it was the Communists that defeated the Nazis, and it was the Communists that Hitler declared his pogroms for, to rid Germany of the Communists and moral corruption? Just what do you think the Communists were going to do to captured Nazis? Again, do you think the Germans were stupid?


Did I refute or argue with any of that? No. Don't imply I did.

G-E wrote:
Same with the missing gas chamber blueprints (which your photobucket link adds nothing to) where you think it was some secret conspiracy with lots of winking and nudging, when the more obvious answer is there wasn't any conspiracy because every facility was as advertized. De-lousing facilities were for de-lousing, morgues were morgues, but then you can't even keep your "facts" straight; one post you argue the gas chamber is above ground, the next you argue it's the mislabeled morgue below ground.


I'm sick of this shit. You can't even understand one simple fact that I said, that those mass-murder gas chambers were a state secret. If you're willing to believe those labels at face value, labels meant to KEEP A STATE SECRET, you're not a real skeptic. Pick a side and stay there, for hell's sake.

G-E wrote:
Remember evidence before hearsay, all you have is hearsay.


Pot, meet kettle.

G-E wrote:
The link I posted clearly shows those underground antechambers were morgues. You were the one who said there's all this evidence, and all you do show is the evidence that backs up my version... c'mon I thought you were going to try?

So yes, where you see an inefficient design as being plausible, I see a design that was fine for it's actual purpose, the transit and storage of dead bodies from typhus outbreaks prior to cremation. You think the blueprints are all some pre-planned conspiracy to hide their intentions, when up until 1942 we could say they were handily winning the war. Not just that but if I'm right, their cremation capacity closely matches the daily deathtoll at the height of the typhus epidemic, which is when the mad scramble to bring more crematoria online happened.


Refer to my comment before last.

G-E wrote:
See I'm not the one grasping for straws, you are, you and others have to constantly find creative justifications for everything because the evidence isn't making it easy. This is the problem with being a holocaust believer, or 9/11 believer, your brain has to rationalize all the contradictions into a cohesive story that isn't cohesive when it's all said.


And kettle, meet pot.

G-E wrote:
Remember the Leuchter guy with the multiple degrees, patents, and decades of work the the American govt, the guy who designed gas chambers and other lethal devices, specifically said there was no gas chambers adequate for killing humans on any scale? Like literally the most qualified man on the planet examines the ruins and does lab analyses of samples he took. To you he's just some internet warrior in his mom's basement, yet he should be one of the few people you actually believe.


Remember when I said the people who designed and operated the gas chambers have more credibility than him because, oh, they designed and operated the gas chambers? But no, you turn deaf ears to that part because you believe plea deals and torture invalidate all testimony instead of just some of it. Gimme a damn break already.

G-E wrote:
Please, show me facts, not hyperbole. I will believe anything if you show me enough evidence.


You won't believe anything I say, anyway, anytime I show you evidence you blow me off. There's no point. You're the one that has to show evidence as a denier that gas chambers purpose-made for mass murder never existed, and your "evidence" of that so far isn't even good enough for me to use as toilet paper.
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G-E
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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2016 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You don't even seem to remember what you're saying when you arguing I don't read it, so you can stop accusing me. Half the time when you say what you do, it has explicit implications, which for some reason you don't notice, and I can't help that.

That's a handy catch-all for you, it's a "state secret" so there's no evidence that someone like me could look at. Well super, sounds like you win then. Now find me a document that says it was a "state secret" so I can begin to believe you?

I told you, I'm not about to believe hysterical survivors that tell contradictory stories, all with an axe to grind against the Nazis. Have you ever heard 4yrs olds explain who started a fight?

Show me documents, or shutup.
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Sir Modsalot
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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2016 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
You don't even seem to remember what you're saying when you arguing I don't read it, so you can stop accusing me. Half the time when you say what you do, it has explicit implications, which for some reason you don't notice, and I can't help that.


You CAN help not making shit up in your immediate reply to a post from several hours prior, but it apparently doesn't stop you from doing it, anyway. You're the one that doesn't go back and properly read earlier posts, and/or deliberately take them out of context to infer a conclusion that wasn't originally reached. Quit blaming everyone but yourself for your own bullshit. That's half the problem here.

G-E wrote:
That's a handy catch-all for you, it's a "state secret" so there's no evidence that someone like me could look at. Well super, sounds like you win then. Now find me a document that says it was a "state secret" so I can begin to believe you?


Quote:
Heinrich Himmler, Reich Leader of the SS and Chief of the German Police, said in a secret speech to SS generals in Posen in 1943 that the mass murder of the European Jews was a secret, never to be recorded.


From crematorium engineer Fritz Sander's testimony in 1946:

Quote:
This "Krema" was to be built on the conveyor belt principle. That is to say, the corpses must be brought to the incineration furnaces without interruption.  When the corpses are pushed into the furnaces, they fall onto a grate, and then slide into the furnace and are incinerated. The corpses serve at the same time as fuel for heating of the furnaces. This patent could not yet be approved by the Main Patent Office in Berlin, because of its classification (as a state secret).


Commentary regarding the deputy-commandant of Auschwitz, Hans Aumeier, translated from German:

Quote:
The commandant mentioned that the previous night the first exterminations had been carried out and that it was found that the improvised gas chamber did nothing like meet the needs so that in the erection of the new crematoria in Birkenau gas chambers will have to be built as permanent fixtures. The whole affair was "Geheime Reichssache" (Reich state secret) and they were warned that any indiscretion on the subject or careless talk would on the orders of Himmler be punished by death.


All of that means nobody would have been allowed to put to paper what the gas chambers were or why they were built except for those at the very top. The testimony I've already quoted and linked to invalidated those orders and their oaths to secrecy, of course. Even communiques regarding the death counts were hush-hush:

Quote:
On December 31, 1942, a secret message ("Geheime Reichssache!") to Adolf Eichmann in Berlin reported on the total number of deaths in Belzec, Treblinka, Sobibor and Lublin in 1942. It was 1.274,166.


Oh wait, these aren't "documents". I guess that doesn't mean it's proof to you, but then it's been on you as the denier the entire time to provide your proof in the first place. Did it occur to you that in addition to trying to destroy the facilities themselves to erase their existence, they burned any relevant documents that explicitly described the function and purpose of the chambers? They didn't want the Allies knowing what they did. It should be obvious that just doing that wouldn't ensure it would stay secret, but they still tried.

G-E wrote:
I told you, I'm not about to believe hysterical survivors that tell contradictory stories, all with an axe to grind against the Nazis. Have you ever heard 4yrs olds explain who started a fight?


So the survivors who never saw many of their family members again because they were gassed and cremated testified only because they had "an axe to grind"? This is just getting sad.
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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2016 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok I'll give you brownie points for at least trying to provide some basis to back up your histrionics.

Remember what I said at the beginning of this thread, I didn't always disbelieve what happened either, until I stumbled on some very thoughtful articles and did my own research, whereupon I realized a distinct lack of hard evidence.

Also remember my other assertion: extraordinary crimes need extraordinary proof.

When the SEC investigation evidence was destroyed on 9/11, the investigation was stopped. It doesn't matter that they knew who was guilty of what, you can't convict people of crimes on the basis of hearsay. Using the same methodology, unless there is any hard evidence to back up the claims of survivors, who obviously weren't gassed to death since they can talk, we can't charge the Nazi regime with genocide.

If the holocaust story says there were square chute with chicken wire where cyanide coated pellets were dropped down to kill people, then they have to exist prior to the Soviet army rebuilding the facility, for example.

Quote:
On December 31, 1942, a secret message ("Geheime Reichssache!") to Adolf Eichmann in Berlin reported on the total number of deaths in Belzec, Treblinka, Sobibor and Lublin in 1942. It was 1.274,166.

This is an interesting if irrelevant point, because there were plenty of natural deaths that didn't involve any execution. But let's talk about Lublin for a second, because no one ever suggested that was anything other than a labour camp, I assume you know this.
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/ghettos/lublinlabourcamps.html
Quote:
Initially, these were local craftsmen who lived in their homes and reported to work each day. In mid-1940 about 1,200 workers were incarcerated in the camp, but they were released at the end of the year and replaced in December 1940 and January 1941, by about 2,500 Polish army soldiers of Jewish extraction – brought from Prisoner of War camps in East Prussia.

In that period, the camp also served as a penal camp for the Polish population who failed to fulfil the economic obligations imposed on them by the Nazi authorities.
*snip*
From August 1940 the camp was commanded by SS- Untersturmfuhrer Horst Riedel and his adjutant SS- Untersturmfuhrer Wolfgang Mohwinkel. Riedel concentrated on making business deals, which led to the economic success of the camp, while the restless, arrogant Mohwinkel implemented a brutal regime of discipline, including beatings, hangings and shootings.

Fair enough, prison and labour camp, nothing nefarious there.

Now if you read further, they deliberately muddle the timeline to distort the events and make it seem like there was no action-reaction relationship between uprisings and the massacre. The uprising happened, then the massacre happened, this is not unusual in the history of detention camps, concentration camps, labour camps, or even federal prisons in America. They also conveniently leave out whether the shomakers who killed some Nazis were Jewish, because then you might start to think their execution was their own fault. Again, as ugly as this was, this wasn't genocidal rage by a regime, it was a Commandant being harsh with his unruly prisoners.

You'll also note how they say _all_ the Jews who worked at the camp were killed, but a few paragraphs down, on the very same day they marched 2500 Jewish prisoners to another camp. Are we to believe that only "working" Jews were worth killing, and "non-working" Jews were worth keeping? How counter-productive could you be running a _labour_ camp?

Do you not see the problem here?

PS. as a point of order, slavery was legal in Germany at the time, again reprehensible as it is, far from unusual...
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Sir Modsalot
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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2016 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
Remember what I said at the beginning of this thread, I didn't always disbelieve what happened either, until I stumbled on some very thoughtful articles and did my own research, whereupon I realized a distinct lack of hard evidence.


You still haven't shown any of that hard evidence. You have no basis to deny genocide using gas chambers, therefore everything else falls apart. Why are you STILL doing it anyway?

G-E wrote:
Also remember my other assertion: extraordinary crimes need extraordinary proof.


As well, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Where is yours?

G-E wrote:
It doesn't matter that they knew who was guilty of what, you can't convict people of crimes on the basis of hearsay. Using the same methodology, unless there is any hard evidence to back up the claims of survivors, who obviously weren't gassed to death since they can talk, we can't charge the Nazi regime with genocide.


There you go again, turning blind eyes and deaf ears to actual evidence. I'm not repeating what I said again.

G-E wrote:
If the holocaust story says there were square chute with chicken wire where cyanide coated pellets were dropped down to kill people, then they have to exist prior to the Soviet army rebuilding the facility, for example.


Getting desperate, I see.

G-E wrote:
This is an interesting if irrelevant point, because there were plenty of natural deaths that didn't involve any execution. But let's talk about Lublin for a second, because no one ever suggested that was anything other than a labour camp, I assume you know this.
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/ghettos/lublinlabourcamps.html


Good god, why are you even going off on that tangent based on that quote? They weren't reporting gas chamber-only deaths, they reported ALL deaths. I didn't imply otherwise.

G-E wrote:
Fair enough, prison and labour camp, nothing nefarious there.


First, you're only even looking at one of the three camps mentioned. Second, the other two were outright designated extermination camps. Third, the Lublin camp WAS a concentration camp with gas chambers and crematoriums after September 1942. You're deliberately using labor records from before then to deny what the camp was later on. Ignoring something doesn't make it false.

G-E wrote:
You'll also note how they say _all_ the Jews who worked at the camp were killed, but a few paragraphs down, on the very same day they marched 2500 Jewish prisoners to another camp. Are we to believe that only "working" Jews were worth killing, and "non-working" Jews were worth keeping? How counter-productive could you be running a _labour_ camp?

Do you not see the problem here?


The only problem I see is one of reading comprehension.

Quote:
In November 1941 Globocnik relieved Riedel of his command of Lipowa Street camp and the highly dedicated Mohwinkel took over as commandant until 3 November 1943, when the Aktion Erntefest murdered all the Jews who worked in the camp.
...
On 3 November 1943 the last 2,500 Jews were marched from the Lipowa Street camp to Majdanek concentration camp to be shot, as part of the Aktion Erntefest massacre. Some of the Jewish prisoners tried to escape, but their efforts were not successful.


The stated dates match, it indicates that the remainder of the workforce was exterminated that day; there is no discrepancy. You only made one up. That's your only option at this point, to keep making shit up to support your denial. Is this going to stop or not?
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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2016 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So wait I need to prove that something that doesn't normally happen didn't actually happen? Guilty until proven innocent?

I'm always shocked by people like you, you try to sound reasonable but really you're sick and vengeful, you don't even care about the truth.

You brought up a quote, I expounded on one part of it to prove your quote was meaningless, and that makes me desperate? If you didn't think it was relevant, why did you bring it up? And since you did, why can't I remark on it?

I mentioned the columns that holocausters like to use as the official method of dropping pellets in to kill people, but there is plenty of evidence that there were no such things until the Soviet army occupying the base put in the ventilation ducts for use as air raid shelters. You can accuse me of making that up, but they did it, there is evidence for it. Not just that but they also rebuilt some crematoria with spare parts, in one case they even built a chimney that isn't even attached! Don't you understand this memorial has fooled millions of people, and it's fake? Blame the Commies, not me...

Please, the extraordinary evidence has to come from the accuser. Once again I see you have nothing.
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Sir Modsalot
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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
So wait I need to prove that something that doesn't normally happen didn't actually happen? Guilty until proven innocent?

I'm always shocked by people like you, you try to sound reasonable but really you're sick and vengeful, you don't even care about the truth.


There's the hypocrisy again. You're the denier, you're the one wiping your ass with the evidence and testimony, you're the one that doesn't give 2 rat's asses about the truth, you're the one trying to sound like you have the high ground and the better argument when you don't. It's like you think some kind of big ass magic show happened in those chambers that made people literally disappear or something.

G-E wrote:
I mentioned the columns that holocausters like to use as the official method of dropping pellets in to kill people, but there is plenty of evidence that there were no such things until the Soviet army occupying the base put in the ventilation ducts for use as air raid shelters. You can accuse me of making that up, but they did it, there is evidence for it. Not just that but they also rebuilt some crematoria with spare parts, in one case they even built a chimney that isn't even attached! Don't you understand this memorial has fooled millions of people, and it's fake? Blame the Commies, not me...


The Soviets did all of the facility conversions years AFTER WW2 ended (I did NOT deny that they did that), and AFTER SS testimony about the design and function of those chambers. You're running out of fallback options here. I also checked legitimate data for those holes that you seem to imply were installed by the Soviets, and again, you're wrong:

Quote:
Filip Müller, the author of "Eye Witness, Three Years in the Gas Chambers," wrote that there were six openings on the roof and several SS men poured the gas pellets into the room. Müller wrote, regarding the job of the SS men:

They removed the covers from the six camouflaged openings. Then, protected by gas masks, they poured the green-blue crystals of the deadly gas into the gas chamber.

Müller also wrote that the noise from truck engines was used to "prevent anyone from hearing the shouting and banging on doors of the dying in the gas chamber."

Pery Broad, an SS man who worked in the Gestapo office next door to the gas chamber, corroborates Müller's description of six holes. Broad wrote a report, after he was captured by the British, in which he described how the gas pellets were poured into the Krema I gas chamber: "... the covers had been removed from the six holes in the ceiling..."

The web site of Emory University claims that there were originally five holes on the roof of Krema I:

Originally Crema 1 was equipped with three ovens with a morgue room behind them. In late 1941 the morgue room in Crema 1 was sealed up, five holes were punched in the roof and capped with small chimneys through which the Zyklon-B was dropped, a large fan was installed, and the doors were made gas tight.

The Emory University web site also states the following:

The Museum authorities located the clear scars of five holes in the roof and knocked out four of them for the restoration. Why they didn't knock out the fifth as well is unknown, but the scar that shows where it was located and then patched can be clearly seen on the roof.

Survivors who worked in the hospital testified that they looked out the windows and observed SS men pouring Zyklon-B through the holes on the roof.


Let's wrap this up before you jump back to the "morgue" crap and take it out of context.

G-E wrote:
Please, the extraordinary evidence has to come from the accuser. Once again I see you have nothing.


You do not get to pin this on me. The deniers are the accusers when it comes to topics like this. You started the topic, YOU produce the real evidence instead of misinterpreting data and making shit up, and stop pretending I didn't tell you or show you anything. Do that or cut your losses and stop posting. This charade of yours has gone on long enough.
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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sir Modsalot wrote:
G-E wrote:
So wait I need to prove that something that doesn't normally happen didn't actually happen? Guilty until proven innocent?

I'm always shocked by people like you, you try to sound reasonable but really you're sick and vengeful, you don't even care about the truth.

There's the hypocrisy again. You're the denier

Do you realize you just admitted your insanity? You accuse me of hypocrisy not jumping to conclusions!

Seriously, you should put down the internet and start reading some books about logic and critical thinking, because seriously, I can't help you. Hell go watch some episodes of Law & Order if you're too impatient to read...

Sir Modsalot wrote:
The Soviets did all of the facility conversions years AFTER WW2 ended (I did NOT deny that they did that), and AFTER SS testimony about the design and function of those chambers. You're running out of fallback options here.

TORTURED CONFESSIONS WILL TELL YOU ANYTHING YOU WANT TO HEAR. Dammit man, have you learned nothing from all the psychologists and specialists on torture?

Quote:
Filip Müller, the author of "Eye Witness, Three Years in the Gas Chambers," wrote that there were six openings on the roof and several SS men poured the gas pellets into the room. Müller wrote, regarding the job of the SS men:

He may have said 6, but the construction only shows the holes in the REINFORCED CONCRETE that the Soviets made, you can't patch up a hold in old concrete and not be able to see it, have you bothered looking at the interior photos? It looks like the Soviet vents were made by some handyman in a rush, with some dull cutting tools and old plaster.

Quote:
They removed the covers from the six camouflaged openings. Then, protected by gas masks, they poured the green-blue crystals of the deadly gas into the gas chamber.

Müller also wrote that the noise from truck engines was used to "prevent anyone from hearing the shouting and banging on doors of the dying in the gas chamber."

Objection, hearsay.

Quote:
The web site of Emory University claims that there were originally five holes on the roof of Krema I....

Emory University can claim Earth was created by Aliens, and that capitalism is good for the environment. This isn't evidence, just the repeated mantra of the holocausters. And they can't even agree whether it was 5 or 6 holes?

Quote:
Survivors who worked in the hospital testified that they looked out the windows and observed SS men pouring Zyklon-B through the holes on the roof.

Objection. Hearsay.

Sir Modsalot wrote:
You do not get to pin this on me. The deniers are the accusers when it comes to topics like this. You started the topic, YOU produce the real evidence instead of misinterpreting data and making shit up, and stop pretending I didn't tell you or show you anything. Do that or cut your losses and stop posting. This charade of yours has gone on long enough.

I wasn't pinning anything on you except your lack of evidence, I will tell you once again, show me evidence like Nazi documentation that backs up your version.

I will again remind you, the reason for this thread was not to talk about gas chambers or ancient aliens, but rather that it's becoming more acceptable to tell the unpopular truth about Hitler...

In short the Jewish Zionist grip on public thinking is faltering, there's been too many lies, and they have proven themselves to be as bad or worse than the Nazis in Palestine. Which is not consistent with a people who suffered a great trauma at the hands of another regime, it is consistent with a people who are used to getting their way through manipulation.
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Sir Modsalot
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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
Seriously, you should put down the internet and start reading some books about logic and critical thinking, because seriously, I can't help you. Hell go watch some episodes of Law & Order if you're too impatient to read...


Well at least you found a way to be amusing here.

G-E wrote:
TORTURED CONFESSIONS WILL TELL YOU ANYTHING YOU WANT TO HEAR. Dammit man, have you learned nothing from all the psychologists and specialists on torture?


We've been over this, you dipshit. The foundation of what you're doing at this point relies on denying all testimony regarding the chambers. I'm going to say this one more time: Torture and plea deals DO NOT INVALIDATE ALL TESTIMONY. Stop goddamn pretending it does. You're only throwing out what's convenient to throw out. You don't want to believe anything they said? Fine. But don't use your ignorance as proof of your argument. People who do that in court tend to not win any cases.

G-E wrote:
He may have said 6, but the construction only shows the holes in the REINFORCED CONCRETE that the Soviets made, you can't patch up a hold in old concrete and not be able to see it, have you bothered looking at the interior photos?


You're only embarrassing yourself further. Stop pretending the Soviets punched those holes when they didn't.

G-E wrote:
Objection, hearsay.


You can only object when you can prove him wrong. You haven't.

G-E wrote:
And they can't even agree whether it was 5 or 6 holes?


More reading comprehension fail. What was quoted ONLY stated that the initial design (there's all you care about again...) had 5 holes. You also completely missed the point, that this is evidence that the holes existed long before the Soviets got to the buildings.

G-E wrote:
Objection. Hearsay.


Again, you can only object when you can prove them wrong. You haven't. What do you think happens in court when you object and claim hearsay? The judge is going to want to see a basis for that claim. Your basis this entire time has been "That couldn't have happened because it didn't", and when asked to explain how it didn't, your answer is, rather than showing real contradicting evidence, to twist evidence against you until it looks like evidence for you. Shit doesn't work that way, but you seem to think it does.

G-E wrote:
I wasn't pinning anything on you except your lack of evidence, I will tell you once again, show me evidence like Nazi documentation that backs up your version.


This is what keeps pissing me off. I'm not answering another of these requests when I already explained that they would have burned relevant documents to try to keep the Allies and Soviets from finding out about it, and you adamantly refuse to believe anything the Nazis themselves said about the matter, even anything they said during the war before they were captured.

G-E wrote:
I will again remind you, the reason for this thread was not to talk about gas chambers or ancient aliens, but rather that it's becoming more acceptable to tell the unpopular truth about Hitler...


Your "truth" relied wholly on your assertion that genocide by gas chambers didn't happen. Your failing is that it did happen, and you think that ignorance of valid testimony of the prisoners and SS officers/camp workers, and ignorance of extremely obvious engineering of the chambers for the purpose of gassing dozens of people at a time in each chamber is evidence that it didn't happen.

Are you ever going to understand why you're in the wrong here? If you cannot understand that, then I'll wait as long as I have to for you to produce ACTUAL evidence of the gas chambers NOT being used for mass murder. What you're also not getting is that if there really was another side to this, a side that supports your arguments with its own evidence instead of just a bunch of contrarions' claims that what happened somehow didn't happen, you'd have found that side and its evidence by now and been able to make cogent arguments that legitimately disprove what happened. Let's get the rest of this over with.

G-E wrote:
In short the Jewish Zionist grip on public thinking is faltering, there's been too many lies, and they have proven themselves to be as bad or worse than the Nazis in Palestine.


Oh, please. There were no death camps in Palestine, you can't compare what they did to what happened at Treblinka, Birkenau, Belzec, Chelmno, Jasenovac, Majdanek, Maly Trostenets, Sobibor, and Sajmiste, ALL of which were designated extermination camps where ALL new arrivals were killed en masse, and mostly in the gas chambers. But oh wait, you still don't think that happened, even though you can't prove it didn't happen.

Get a grip and knock off the crap already.
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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can we just be real here? g-e is basically admitting to being a Nazi sympathizer. If he'd just come out and say it, I think we'd all be less angry about the devout defense of precious Fuhrer. Then again, we'd have a new reason to want him thrown to rabid dogs. I mean, losing battle all the way around. Kinda sad honestly.
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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Um, just read this thread would make anyone want to throw to rabid dogs.

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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"You can only object when you can prove him wrong. You haven't." - Spoken like someone who believes in totalitarianism.

"I already explained that they would have burned relevant documents to try to keep the Allies and Soviets from finding out about it" - Spoken like a conspiracy theorist.

"There were no death camps in Palestine, you can't compare what they did to what happened at Treblinka" - Spoken like someone who is justifying _some_ concentration camps and _some_ ethnic cleansing.

"I'll wait as long as I have to for you to produce ACTUAL evidence of the gas chambers NOT being used for mass murder." - Spoken like someone who doesn't believe in due process, evidence discovery, and reasonable doubt, the basis for western law.

"Torture and plea deals DO NOT INVALIDATE ALL TESTIMONY." - Spoken like someone who believes torture works.

Need I go on you crazy bastard? Smile

FurryQueen wrote:
Can we just be real here? g-e is basically admitting to being a Nazi sympathizer. If he'd just come out and say it, I think we'd all be less angry about the devout defense of precious Fuhrer. Then again, we'd have a new reason to want him thrown to rabid dogs. I mean, losing battle all the way around. Kinda sad honestly.

I'm not anyone's sympathizer, unlike you lot who absolve all the western wrongdoings. I just happen to believe that everyone side of a story needs a chance to be heard, and ALL the guilty should be punished for the crimes they DID commit, and not ones they haven't.
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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
Spoken like someone who believes in totalitarianism.


Spoken like someone who still has no evidence.

G-E wrote:
Spoken like a conspiracy theorist.


The family assembles. Pot, have you met kettle's cousin, wok? Seriously, pick a side already.

G-E wrote:
Spoken like someone who is justifying _some_ concentration camps and _some_ ethnic cleansing.


You're REALLY reaching if you think I'm justifying any of it.

G-E wrote:
Spoken like someone who doesn't believe in due process, evidence discovery, and reasonable doubt, the basis for western law.


Spoken like someone who thinks western law is infallible and hasn't been violated before to get information.

G-E wrote:
Spoken like someone who believes torture works.


Spoken like someone who still isn't ready to face facts and take things seriously.

You're clearly out of gas, so let's stop this here.
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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're a sympathizer, g-e. I don't see you trying to "got to the bottom" of anything else. You're just making shit up for the sake of either trolling or devout support for an individual who brought on the world's darkest hour. You've done nothing but downplay humanity's darkest time as some sort of grand "misunderstanding." This isn't about some discussion that needs to be had. You're just acting like a twatwaffle for the sake of being one. You have no real evidence, just blind conjecture. All of which has been consistently refuted and can easily be done by multiple sources.

Do you want incontrovertible proof of Nazi atrocity? You only need look further than this guy here. This is a soldier who willingly interred himself in the most brutal of camps to see what was happening. He escaped, submitted the Pilecki Report and gives proof to all claims of horrific atrocity. Bet you didn't even know this dude exist because he's Polish.

Let's just be honest. You're a Neo Nazi. Admit it and let's move the fuck on... or do you really want to wish to continue this fruitless exercise?
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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2016 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FurryQueen wrote:
You're a sympathizer, g-e. I don't see you trying to "got to the bottom" of anything else. You're just making shit up for the sake of either trolling or devout support for an individual who brought on the world's darkest hour. You've done nothing but downplay humanity's darkest time as some sort of grand "misunderstanding."

You're too brainwashed to realize, that if there was no burnt offering, then it was just plain old war that caused the subsequent atrocities. Just like the many wars America and England and France have _launched_ against other regimes around the world, killing untold millions in the process. Why would the Nazi regime be the darkest anything?

FurryQueen wrote:
Do you want incontrovertible proof of Nazi atrocity? You only need look further than this guy here. This is a soldier who willingly interred himself in the most brutal of camps to see what was happening. He escaped, submitted the Pilecki Report and gives proof to all claims of horrific atrocity. Bet you didn't even know this dude exist because he's Polish.

Was he gassed to death too? NO, he was captured and executed by the Commies. His bio even talks about how he improved working conditions in the camp! Eventually he was part of an uprising... sounds a lot like an American federal prison to me.

To the Communists, England and Germany were like siblings, prior to 1938 they were best buddies, but then they had a spat, and one declared war against the Soviet Union. Consequently, the Nazis were reviled by the Communists far more than any of you know, and vice versa after what the Soviet army did to anyone who did sympathize with the Nazis in Ukraine especially.

FurryQueen wrote:
Let's just be honest. You're a Neo Nazi. Admit it and let's move the fuck on... or do you really want to wish to continue this fruitless exercise?

You should stop attacking me and start mulling over the topics merits, because what you don't see is the absolute worst elements of Fascism and Communism are alive and well in America, England, France, Germany and many other places right now. Russia thankfully kicked out the offending NGOs, oligarchs etc, and took back the country from the Jews, but the others I mentioned are frankly ass-fked.

Imperialism, immorality, ignorance, and societal depravity, these are the path to the dark side. You can't understand what's happening until you understand why the Jews were kicked out of every European country at least once. When you understand that, Hitler will make a lot more sense, as will his war against Communists.

SM: your closed-mindedness bores me now, you can't even see how the only way you can support the holocaust story is by embracing irrational hatred, and abandoning morality and logic. Your statements bear out this contradiction, but you still can't see it.
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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2016 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
SM: your closed-mindedness bores me now, you can't even see how the only way you can support the holocaust story is by embracing irrational hatred, and abandoning morality and logic. Your statements bear out this contradiction, but you still can't see it.


You only need to look at your own posts to say that about your support for denial theories. You didn't even answer me when I asked what you have to gain out of denying everything that you did.
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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2016 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What do you gain for supporting the narrative?

Please, if there's some wealthy organization throwing money around to recruit people to question the holocaust conspiracy, pass my name along...
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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2016 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And here we see the real reason g-e thinks the Holocaust is just peachy. Spot the anti-Semite. It's not hard to do. You don't win a prize, but you do begin to unravel the false narrative g-e is trying to present.

The evil Jews. Give me a break. Stop now, g-e. Just stop. You're digging a hole that keeps getting deeper and deeper. Eventually, you'll find China if you keep digging. Unless you can bring some substantial proof that your claims are legitimate, you're just another neo-nazi, conspiracy theory believing idiot. No, grainy photos, spooky youtube videos and severely, obviously biased nutjob websites don't count.
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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2016 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
What do you gain for supporting the narrative?


Exposing you for being a heartless delusional asshole is reward enough. If I got ANYTHING for doing this, I'd be hopping forum to forum looking for people like you to refute, but this is the first time I've had to do this (the 9/11 thread was about the 3rd or 4th time I've done that). I'm only doing this because you tried to get people here to believe your bullshit and it's getting exhausting just watching you still try to do it.
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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2016 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not asking anyone to _believe_ anything, I am asking them to _question_ what they were told.

I mean you like to harp on about all these witnesses... what if I told you there are well over 3000 people in America right now who believe they were abducted by aliens? If you videotaped all their stories, and they didn't all jive, would you say "it all happened" like you do with the holocausters?

What if you met someone for the first time who had never heard of the concept of "god", would you demand they prove god DOESN'T exist when they look at you bewildered?
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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2016 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
I'm not asking anyone to _believe_ anything, I am asking them to _question_ what they were told.


I was raised to question in a family that isn't afraid to question. I'm quite familiar with the concept.

G-E wrote:
I mean you like to harp on about all these witnesses... what if I told you there are well over 3000 people in America right now who believe they were abducted by aliens? If you videotaped all their stories, and they didn't all jive, would you say "it all happened" like you do with the holocausters?


No, because they don't have any proof of what they saw. Holocaust victims do. Don't you frigging compare them to alleged abductions again.

G-E wrote:
What if you met someone for the first time who had never heard of the concept of "god", would you demand they prove god DOESN'T exist when they look at you bewildered?


I wouldn't even bring it up because I'm not a rude buttpipe to people I don't know.
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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2016 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sir Modsalot wrote:
G-E wrote:
I'm not asking anyone to _believe_ anything, I am asking them to _question_ what they were told.

I was raised to question in a family that isn't afraid to question. I'm quite familiar with the concept.

Yet here you are swallowing the story, hook, line and sinker! And here you are telling me that my questioning is inappropriate!

Sir Modsalot wrote:
G-E wrote:
I mean you like to harp on about all these witnesses... what if I told you there are well over 3000 people in America right now who believe they were abducted by aliens? If you videotaped all their stories, and they didn't all jive, would you say "it all happened" like you do with the holocausters?

No, because they don't have a proof of what they saw. Holocaust victims do. Don't you frigging compare them to alleged abductions again.

Really? How do you know they weren't abducted?

I thought you believed in conspiracies where the only evidence was testimony?

Talk about double-standards...

Sir Modsalot wrote:
G-E wrote:
What if you met someone for the first time who had never heard of the concept of "god", would you demand they prove god DOESN'T exist when they look at you bewildered?

I wouldn't even bring it up because I'm not a rude buttpipe to people I don't know.

You aren't that rude? HAH... here you are accusing me of supporting genocide for questioning whether a genocide really occurred, and questioning whether the right people got punished!

Haven't you heard of a girl accusing someone of rape the day after, when it was consensual the night before? Feeling regret or guilt doesn't change facts, but it sure changes people's stories...

Let's ask it another way:
 
1. how would you convince someone, who never heard of an invisible man in the sky, who kills people they know (or love) for his own designs, and will burn them for eternity if they don't ask forgiveness for something they didn't do, to believe in god?

2. how would you convince someone, who never heard of a historical figure Hitler, who kills people they know like Jews for his own designs, and will burn them for something they didn't do, to believe in the holocaust?

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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2016 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
Yet here you are swallowing the story, hook, line and sinker! And here you are telling me that my questioning is inappropriate!


You actually believe I reached my conclusions without questioning the data? Without objectively examining the testimony and how it was all obtained? That's so damn cute.

G-E wrote:
Really? How do you know they weren't abducted?


I already told you. They don't have evidence.

G-E wrote:
I thought you believed in conspiracies where the only evidence was testimony?

Talk about double-standards...


Truly desperate. You're inventing a perspective I never even applied, and you actually think I believe the only evidence is testimony. Just stop.

G-E wrote:
You aren't that rude? HAH... here you are accusing me of supporting genocide for questioning whether a genocide really occurred, and questioning whether the right people got punished!


I'm not rude to people I don't know. I know enough about you at this point that I can afford to be rude. It's about all you deserve at this point.

G-E wrote:
Haven't you heard of a girl accusing someone of rape the day after, when it was consensual the night before? Feeling regret or guilt doesn't change facts, but it sure changes people's stories...

Let's ask it another way:
 
1. how would you convince someone, who never heard of an invisible man in the sky, who kills people they know (or love) for his own designs, and will burn them for eternity if they don't ask forgiveness for something they didn't do, to believe in god?

2. how would you convince someone, who never heard of a historical figure Hitler, who kills people they know like Jews for his own designs, and will burn them for something they didn't do, to believe in the holocaust?


You're out of line now. Get lost.
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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2016 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought you'd eventually break down, most people do, but you broke in stages. Maybe the fact that you believe in the unbelievable already allows you to accept these stories like faith. Except aliens, because you are racist.

Doesn't matter, you hit your brick wall, you no longer even make an attempt apply law and human rights equally, all you care about is protecting your world view at this point.

Before this thread, most of you had never even heard of the Transfer Agreement Livingston was referring to, but somehow you all know everything right? To all you who believe the holocaust story as-is, I pity you fools, and I do it without a mohawk, or gold chains #Tongue

SM: I mean this with all the love, seriously dude, you really need to go back and read your words as I bounced them back at you, and really see how hateful and one-sided your remarks are -- if you think that's not what you meant, then you have to examine why you don't write what you mean.

PS. prove those alien abductees were not actually er abducted if you'd like to continue #Tongue
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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2016 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the better question, g-e. What do you have to gain from trying apply a false narrative to somehow make Jews sound like the bad guys time after time? Were you molested by a Rabbi? There has to be some reason you hate an entire group of people that much, unless you're legitimately a Hitler sympathizer. At which point, you're pretty much useless as a human.

The evidence isn't scant and it's not some grand conspiracy against Herr Fuhrer. Testimonial evidence is corroborated by photographic evidence and written evidence found during and after the war. Millions died in concentration camps, which were not just like "American federal prisons." They were inhumane compounds where they were mistreated at best and tortured, treated like animals and used for experimentation at worst. All you've done, g-e, is use the same tactics you did for 9/11 "being a scam." It's all disparate pieces of information stuck together with paranoia or the inability to accept that there isn't some "great plot" behind all things terrible.

There was an entire war that spanned nearly the entire globe because one man wanted to create his vision of a perfect race... or are you going to tell me now that Hitler's own words were just metaphors and he was joking? Despite the fact he had ardent supporters and the videos of the Sieg Heil thing weren't staged but were genuine. Are those lies now too? What bullshit are you going to come up with this time?

Even if the Holocaust is a sham, which it isn't, the fact remains that millions of people died in a conflict that spanned all of Europe, into Russia, into Africa and involved the Pacific Theater. Millions died because of one gigantic war. The Holocaust is but a part of the broader scope. Since you like comparisons so damn much, how about Japanese atrocity? Do they get a pass too? Are you going to start in about how they didn't really do anything wrong, despite doing worse things to the Chinese than Germans did to people they deemed "unworthy"?

Get a grip, g-e. Your world view is linked to an idea that is centuries old, has no merit and has no basis in reality. And trying to compare alien abduction stores to Holocaust victims. Can you get any lower? Wait, don't answer that because it's clear that you can. Alien "abductions" are dreams gone wrong or people missing time out of their days. In short, average human experiences. Living as emaciated frames of their former selves while you get split from your family then subsequently treated worse than dogs while you watch others get executed in front of you or hauled off somewhere to be mass executed is not average. They get credence because there's no mistaking that for a dream.

So let's assume they're all full of shit. If that's true, does it matter? Does one group of people's invalid testimony somehow negate the fact a war was started on the premise of a "perfect race"? Does that somehow absolve Nazis of war crimes committed outside of the camps? Does that somehow make "okay" an entire goddamn motherfucking war that brought a continent to its knees and brought the deaths of millions of others related to and not related to the conflict? You're pissing on your own feet, g-e. You're missing the scope of the entire five year period of fighting. You're making it sound like the Nazis were just misunderstood good guys. They're not, with or without your vaunted Holocaust.
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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2016 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
I thought you'd eventually break down, most people do, but you broke in stages. Maybe the fact that you believe in the unbelievable already allows you to accept these stories like faith. Except aliens, because you are racist.


God you're stupid. I'll say it again, get lost.

G-E wrote:
Doesn't matter, you hit your brick wall, you no longer even make an attempt apply law and human rights equally, all you care about is protecting your world view at this point.


You hit your brick wall when you failed to produce evidence against the gas chambers and simply kept denying everything and pretending that denying something means it didn't happen without any factual basis for that denial. You think you're still capable of holding your arguments together at this point? Good god, STOP ALREADY. If that post is the best you can do at this point then you've lost. Man the hell up and admit you're down before you get kicked.

G-E wrote:
Before this thread, most of you had never even heard of the Transfer Agreement Livingston was referring to, but somehow you all know everything right? To all you who believe the holocaust story as-is, I pity you fools, and I do it without a mohawk, or gold chains #Tongue


You think you have a right to pity us for believing in something that actually happened? You think you have the right to piss on the graves of everyone that was mass-gassed at those death and concentration camps, and you think you're on the right and winning side of the argument when you do that? Go die in a goddamn fire already.

G-E wrote:
SM: I mean this with all the love, seriously dude, you really need to go back and read your words as I bounced them back at you, and really see how hateful and one-sided your remarks are -- if you think that's not what you meant, then you have to examine why you don't write what you mean.


Here's your problem: trying to bounce what I said back at me doesn't prove jack except that you're incapable of proving what you want to prove.

G-E wrote:
PS. prove those alien abductees were not actually er abducted if you'd like to continue #Tongue


What did I bloody tell you about comparing abductions to the Holocaust? All you're doing now is being a massive troll. Prove that mass murder by gas chamber during the Holocaust didn't happen or piss off. I've had enough of your shit.
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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2016 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SM: you ruined this thread, you abandoned the most basic human traits of logic, compassion, fairness, and that's all I'll say to you.

FQ: I'm shocked, that might have been your most well thought out, perhaps even the most elegant post that I've seen you make so far! I thank you just for the effort.

If you read back, I explicitly mentioned the Japanese concentration camps and their atrocities, along with the atrocities of carpet bombing factory workers and sleeping civilians, as well as the most heinous of all: nukes.

As an aside: Nazi Germany had nothing to do with the Japanese-Chinese conflict from what I could tell, so as related as they are being in the same World War, can we agree to keep them as distinct issues?

I fully agree with you, WWII was about as inhumane as humans have ever been, and it should not under any circumstances be repeated, or celebrated. Except there's a fundamental problem with doing that, avoiding past mistakes when you don't understand what the mistakes were, is next to impossible. We must therefore endeavor to try our best to not demonize actors, but to understand all the nuances that steered them.

It is here that I diverge from your thinking. I firmly believe that if the holocausters ARE full of shit (your words), then this not irrelevant as you suggest, but rather at the core of the problem. Not because I am emphasizing one atrocity over another, but because it gets to the heart of what CAUSED it all.

I said earlier (and I'm far from alone on this point) that Jews and their non-Jewish Zionist compatriots/puppets had a long running plan to create a Jewish state. That plan was set into motion during WWI with the Balfour declaration, which was negotiated as a form of blackmail against the English.

The plan then progressed further when the Jewish controlled banks enslaved Germany through debt, creating fake wealth and a bubble economy (just like America suffers bubbles every decade or so), where some got briefly wealthy. During this time, socital morality broke down, debauchery and vice became rampant in Berlin especially. When Hitler attempted to lead a movement to free Germany of this enslavement and depravity, they cut him down. Then those same bankers created the Great Depression, which had an equally disastrous effect on Germany who was subsisting on those predatory loans. Communism took root as an ideological cure to this unworkable form of "free market" driven collapse, and the ideology promoted manipulating things for a common good, while never acknowledging that it was manipulation that caused the problem in the first place.

Eventually when Hitler tried again, he rose with a populism never seen in the history of Europe. 45 million or more demanded a strong leader to change that. On Hitler's ascent, he spoke the truth about these bankers, about these Communists, and he added included all the people he thought were uncultured freeloaders like the Slavs, but especially those who wanted to assert their Communism on Germany.

The world Jewry declared war on Nazi Germany to force Hitler's hand, to make him punish those he saw as responsible with more brutality than necessary. Eventually the Zionist movement leaders that had come to England, came to Hitler, and made a deal, they would setup a method to get Germany out from the boycott/sanctions, they would work with their counterparts in England to create a method to bypass any embargos, and work together to encourage all German Jews to head for Palestine. Unfortunately, most German Jews never had it so good, and didn't want to leave! They needed a shock, a great cultural trauma to make them want to go, for that, some persecution and a war would do nicely.

I'll stop here but the story goes on...

The crucial part people miss is that WWI and WWII were part of the same plan, a Jewish plan to create a Jewish state. Even if we disbelieve they were solely at fault, they definitely manipulated events by their control of the money supply, and their control of many of the major industries of the important western countries involved in the wars, to that effect. We have to acknowledge their influence and presence if we are to understand what happened.

Thus if we understand that much of what happend TO Germany, we can begin to understand what happened IN Germany.

If we see it from the German point of view (not Hitler's per se), the Slavs and Gypsies were the scum of society, prone to crime, excessive drinking as they had no roots, and as a source of Jewish-Communist ideologies, none of which were very "German"... and the ordinary folks didn't like it. Hitler therefore was a product of this, and promised them to clean up Germany, the way ethnic Germans wanted it to be.

This isn't a genocidal idea, this is a protectionist conservative idea. When Trump says he'll build a wall to keep Mexicans out, that isn't genocidal either. Mein Kampf may be a crude and provocative manifesto, but it stated Hitler's value system, not his political intentions. Just like we don't take some neighbour yelling he's going to "fking kill you" for some lawn transgression literally. It's a book, a philosophical book, the Talmud is worse, so much worse.

Today in 2016, Germany is once again finding out that there can be no peace, when there is a large influx of foreign ideologies and migrant workers who have no loyalty to the country. We are seeing the exact same resentment in some German people that we would have seen in 1932. Sure the ideologies are different, but that's merely a bullet point.

A society will always experience massive upheaval, which at first is entirely negative, when there is a large demographic shift. We can argue that multi-culturalism works in places like Syria or Libya or Palestine (before the western powers screwed it all up), but these have been slow evolutions, not full scale invasions. I'm in Canada, I get to experience both of these themes in parallel as Syrians arrive to be resettled. Some embrace, some hate, it isn't logical, it is people's cultural immune systems at work.

The second part of this is to understand the Jewish part, how they got mixed up in this, because for the most part, German Jews had fully integrated. Many of them as German as their Christian or Lutheran neighbours. They were not as innocent however, because a good portion of them at least supported the same Jewish bankers and Jewish intellectual leaders, which could be considered as Zionist leaders. It is this latter group that caused the problems, but a group that was inseparable from their agents and supporters in any given country, because they have a culture of not having a home.

I'm sure most of you don't understand this, but one of the core principles that binds Jews together as we know them, is their common belief that they were kicked out of their homeland, never to return. Many of the Hassidic Jews to this day denouce the Zionists because they have perverted this understanding, their god kicked them out, and the Zionists let themselves back in. Other Jews, the ones we now have to call "ultra Orthodox", ie. the _real_ Jewish faith/followers, they tend to believe that Zionism is a curse, and prior to these imposters with their bastardized Talmudic logic, there was peace in Palestine -- to them the Zionists destroyed that peace. They are right.

That last paragraph is the key to understanding how a group of people, unlike any other, are so willing to destroy or corrupt a society they are a part of. Simply, they are guests, it is not their home, they are like the cats who shit in other people's yards but never their own. They have a several thousand year old culture, that their religion is based around, of having no roots. Not having their own country, means not having their own armies. While every other people's on earth have conquered new nations, new lands, taken slaves, it was all done by military force, the Jews used subversion, infiltration, and patience. They even wrote a 10000 page book that describes to them how to do it.

To us goyim, the Jewish/Zionist plan seems impossibly slow, impossibly inefficient, so impossibly unconnected, but so are the rivers that have cleaved entire mountains in half by friction.

This isn't a story about Hitler, this is a story about a Jewish struggle, that used men like Hitler, Churchill, Roosevelt, and Stalin, to get their way.
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Sir Modsalot
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Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Location: Mixing psilocybin in your drinks.

PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2016 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
SM: you ruined this thread, you abandoned the most basic human traits of logic, compassion, fairness, and that's all I'll say to you.


You're again applying your own traits to me. You ruined your own thread by molding fiction and half-assed conspiracies to look like fact. Once again, piss off.
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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2016 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hitler was a great man.

RIP

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G-E
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Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2016 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
hol-uh-kawst, hoh-luh-kawst

1. a great or complete devastation or destruction, especially by fire.
2. a sacrifice completely consumed by fire; burnt offering.

A great sacrifice it was, German Jews were thrown onto the fires of WWII, for the greater good of Zionism.

This, is the riddle of the holocaust. This, is why it will happen again. Many Israelis will be sacrificed for the Greater Israel Project, and many more people will also die for them.

Fool me once, shame on you... you can't get fooled again!
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Administrative Warning: Administrative Warning: Political Conspirator Detected!The political opinions expressed by this user in this forum are blindly hostile against Israel and whatever he considers to be Zionism or Zionists. Samples of such behavior can be seen here, here and here. His tactics consists on desconstructing what he considers to be the 'official story' blaming "Zionist" media for "lies", but he never has the intention to prove his claims. He tries to use psychological rethorics to provoke others to prove it in his place and only seem to accept "proofs" (a.k.a. factoids) that seems to fit his shaped opinion about the subject. A proper explanation on his tactics with samples can be seen here and here.


This kind of behavior is not welcomed in this community at all, neither are any kind of hate speech against any group of people. Such attitude is considered trolling. This warning notice is restricted to the Political and Economical Discussion Forum and maybe it will be removed once administrators consider that the attitude of the user has changed.

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