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Discussion about Hitler
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FurryQueen
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Joined: 24 Jul 2010

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Think about it this way. What if you're wrong? There's a high chance of you being very, very wrong. Problem is... you can't accept that you might be wrong so you simply shrug everything off as us "not seeing the truth." Continuing this exercise is one of futility. You won't accept anything else and the rest of us don't live in crazy land.
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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Didn't you understand that I was being sarcastic when I said 'funny joke'? And also, it was related to your first post and not the muslim SS division.

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Deformat
Defense Minister


Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Location: Bucharest,Romania Posts:29240348568

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay G-E, I'll show you how your posts look like to every sane person:

the j00s the j00s the j00s, the j00s, the j00s j00s j00s doing j00ish j00iness, j00ing. j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s.
the j00s the j00s the j00s, the j00s, the j00s j00s j00s doing j00ish j00iness, j00ing. j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s.
the j00s the j00s the j00s, the j00s, the j00s j00s j00s doing j00ish j00iness, j00ing. j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s.


the j00s the j00s the j00s, the j00s, the j00s j00s j00s doing j00ish j00iness, j00ing. j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s.
the j00s the j00s the j00s, the j00s, the j00s j00s j00s doing j00ish j00iness, j00ing. j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s.
the j00s the j00s the j00s, the j00s, the j00s j00s j00s doing j00ish j00iness, j00ing. j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s.

paragraph about bias

the j00s the j00s the j00s, the j00s, the j00s j00s j00s doing j00ish j00iness, j00ing. j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s.
the j00s the j00s the j00s, the j00s, the j00s j00s j00s doing j00ish j00iness, j00ing. j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s j00s.

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G-E
General


Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FurryQueen wrote:
Think about it this way. What if you're wrong? There's a high chance of you being very, very wrong. Problem is... you can't accept that you might be wrong so you simply shrug everything off as us "not seeing the truth." Continuing this exercise is one of futility. You won't accept anything else and the rest of us don't live in crazy land.

I'm perfectly willing to accept that I'm wrong in whole or in part, which is why I use language like "seems" or "consistent", the same language lawyers use. I would argue that aside from introducing material which I speak firmly about, I have given the least assertions, with the least firm language of all of you.

Some of you blindly argued they were death camps, yet they had money and recreational facilities. They had vaudeviille plays and soccer matches. There were sanitation barracks, sleeping barracks, and communal showers. Is this not consistent with long-term labour camps, or even prison camps?

People argue that mountains of inmate belongings and human teeth are proof of nefarious activity. Except that it is customary to remove teeth before cremation, whether you like a person or not, those suckers don't burn. Likewise it is customary for prisoners to be showered and given prison clothing, with stripes in this case, as they do all over the world. Again this is consistent with labour or prison camps.

This is the language I use, because the holocaust version lacks these consistencies. All you have is angry ex-inmates yapping about how the Nazis were monsters or aliens or whatever, and they can't agree on any details.

"If the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit!" - OJ Simpson trial

PS. Deformat you are retarded
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This kind of behavior is not welcomed in this community at all, neither are any kind of hate speech against any group of people. Such attitude is considered trolling. This warning notice is restricted to the Political and Economical Discussion Forum and maybe it will be removed once administrators consider that the attitude of the user has changed.

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Sir Modsalot
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Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Location: Mixing psilocybin in your drinks.

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
Some of you blindly argued they were death camps, yet they had money and recreational facilities. They had vaudeviille plays and soccer matches. There were sanitation barracks, sleeping barracks, and communal showers. Is this not consistent with long-term labour camps, or even prison camps?


Get this through your thick-ass skull: the Nazis spread propaganda about what was going on in those camps to divert attention from what was actually going on there, and they got you coming and going. I will reiterate this: if you do not question this propaganda, YOU ARE NOT A GODDAMN SKEPTIC AND CANNOT PRETEND TO BE ONE. YOU DO NOT DIRECT US TO QUESTION OUR GOVERNMENTS THEN TURN AROUND AND REFUSE TO QUESTION THE NAZIS' ATTEMPTS TO SAVE FACE ABOUT THE CAMPS BEFORE THE WAR ENDED. YOU ARE GARBAGE AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE TREATED AS SUCH UNTIL YOU STOP PISSING ON THE GRAVES OF THE VICTIMS WHILE CLAIMING YOU'RE OPENING OUR EYES. How the hell are you not seeing why you're being talked down to like this? Are you EVER going to admit what your agenda is instead of just running around screaming misdirections about how we have some kind of agenda of our own?

G-E wrote:
This is the language I use, because the holocaust version lacks these consistencies. All you have is angry ex-inmates yapping about how the Nazis were monsters or aliens or whatever, and they can't agree on any details.


I've refuted the majority of your claims of inconsistencies and falsehoods. You're for the nth time circling back and pretending I didn't do that. The second you stop doing that, I'll drop my aggressive approach.

G-E wrote:
PS. Deformat you are retarded


I have very little respect for him in general, but the fact that even he is joining in on this is indicative that this forum is against you and your bullshit. We're kicking you when you're down, it's up to you to say "uncle". Are you gonna say it, or do we have to keep kicking you? Or are you gonna do the only thing left that you can do right and leave?
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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
I know you won't, but if you also re-read many of my statements, you will also see that my argument is primarily that the Jewish culture (as we know it today) is the source of many destructive ideologies. Banshee has trouble agreeing that Jewish identity politics and culture, isn't the same thing as Judaism, but that the Talmud affects all Jews, including secular ones, since it shapes their culture.


There are several books referred as Talmud, written by several different people, from different communities who had different ideologies. None of them were popular for the vast majority of the jews for a very simple reason: the jewish community is not "centralized" since 70 BCE (Diaspora). The vast majority of the jewish families did not had contact with the ones who fled to Babylonia or cared about its Talmud. The only book that unites them all is the Torah. It is a grave mistake to claim that the culture generated by these jewish families is unique (note: the culture and religion are entirely different things and I'll not retract on that point under any circumstances, otherwise my religion is brazilian with strong western culture influence). While there are some well known cultural branches from jewish families such as Askhenazi and Sephardi, it is quite clear that most of them assimilated many cultural aspects of the countries they've inhabitted. You can see that in languages such as Ladino or Idish (which mixes hebrew with spanish and german respectively) and even in musics, books, articles and whatever kind of cultural manifestation from jewish people in the globe, as well as its influence in Israeli market. It even influences the way one synagogue celebrates the rituals compared to others. The melody and harmony of the musics and the priority on the prays may differ even in synagogues that are geographically close to each other. There is no centralization in the jewish community today, neither in its culture.

And I don't really know what do you call 'Jewish identity politics'. If you mean Zionism, then you are linking politics with religion and the only religion that seems to enforce politics with religion is the Islamism, but I could be wrong with that as well. Also, Israel, while it claims to be a Jewish state, it does not represent Judaism at all. It is just a state that has a law known as the Law of the Return that is a policy to increase the jewish population in the country.

I'm aware that there is a minority of ultra-orthodox people that may follow one or more Talmuds, but they are a minority and I don't know if they do or support the attrocity that you said in your posts. I'm almost sure that what you describe is a fantasy, even for these people.


G-E wrote:
It's a nuance some people here just refuse to entertain, but I think it goes to the heart of WHY they spawned these ideologies, and why they've been kicked out of so many countries.


This is BS. They've been kicked out of some countries due to power hungry creatures who had their own power hungry ambitions that were incompatible with the presence of these people.

G-E wrote:
Just like Darwin's theory of evolution is based on the Judaic concept of chosenness or ethnic supremacy, because "survival of the fittest" is not how evolution works in most cases. Darwin was biased by Jewish intellectual culture, probably without even realizing it, and his postulation has influenced scores of followers of the theory, for generations. Like I said before, if fitness or supremacy is the only prerequisite for survival, you can't make a moral argument to save one group of people from a stronger group. Darwinism actually takes away the moral grounds to object to a holocaust...


If ignorance killed people, you would be dead with this kind of idea.

For starters, Charles Darwin was originally anglican and ended up being agnostic.

Charles Darwin did not believe in ethnic supremacy, at least with human beings. This wikipedia article on him is clear about that and references at least one biography and another book about it.

Ethnic supremacy is not a jewish value either. In fact, jews uses "kippah" as a way to symbolize that God is above all humans and there are not such things known as castes or differences between human people that would make some inferior to others.

Finally, Charles Darwin's theory is not immoral. It is realistic, damn it. And intuitive. Those who adapt to their environment are the ones who will succeed better. It happens with anything in life in any situation. Of course that the concept of environment and the meaning of 'adapt to their environment' may vary and be affected by several unpredictable factors, but the overall idea sounds to be quite simple and effective. If you consider yourself so much as the atheist, why do you question his work in the same way as some radical Bible followers do? If you are atheist, why do you care so much about those "christian values" of yours? Atheists does not believe in Jesus Christ.

G-E wrote:
This might have applied in theory to the Nazis, with Hitler's master-race idea, but the Jews subscribed to this idea thousands of years ago!


That has probably happened in your wild imagination inside your twisted brain. But in the real history, this is a fallacy. There is no such thing in Judaism. And the before you accusing the Babylonian Talmud of such atrocity or the rabbis who wrote it, you should at least try to know them better. Because you have no evidence of it. Even if you ever find such thing, as I mentioned above, it will be the same mistake as pretending that ISIS followers are actually muslim. You know they aren't and you've already mentioned it in one of your posts. Why, in your ztyping biased mind, can't you apply the same logic to jews?


G-E wrote:
I'm perfectly willing to accept that I'm wrong in whole or in part, which is why I use language like "seems" or "consistent", the same language lawyers use. I would argue that aside from introducing material which I speak firmly about, I have given the least assertions, with the least firm language of all of you.


You are just deceiving yourself with these words. No one here believes it anymore.


G-E wrote:
Some of you blindly argued they were death camps, yet they had money and recreational facilities. They had vaudeviille plays and soccer matches. There were sanitation barracks, sleeping barracks, and communal showers. Is this not consistent with long-term labour camps, or even prison camps?


You are the blind one who think that all concentration camps in the nazi Germany were the same thing. They were not. In extermination camps, jews did not had money or soccer matches for sure. Sanitation conditions were horrible and they were forced to work exhaustly to be killed faster (or without the need of gas chambers). Those who survived were executed with gas or other methods when they were considered to be useless.

Read this when you get bored:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/an-ss-officer-remembers-the-bookkeeper-from-auschwitz-a-355188.html

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G-E
General


Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sir Modsalot wrote:
YOU ARE NOT A GODDAMN SKEPTIC AND CANNOT PRETEND TO BE ONE. YOU DO NOT DIRECT US TO QUESTION OUR GOVERNMENTS THEN TURN AROUND AND REFUSE TO QUESTION THE NAZIS' ATTEMPTS TO SAVE FACE ABOUT THE CAMPS BEFORE THE WAR ENDED. YOU ARE GARBAGE AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE TREATED AS SUCH UNTIL YOU STOP PISSING ON THE GRAVES OF THE VICTIMS WHILE CLAIMING YOU'RE OPENING OUR EYES.

We can talk when your madness ends, have you tried therapy? I'm sure you'd get along famously with a Jewish shrink...

Banshee wrote:
There are several books referred as Talmud, written by several different people, from different communities who had different ideologies. None of them were popular for the vast majority of the jews for a very simple reason: the jewish community is not "centralized" since 70 BCE (Diaspora). The vast majority of the jewish families did not had contact with the ones who fled to Babylonia or cared about its Talmud. The only book that unites them all is the Torah.

I never said the Talmud was one book, but you would be wrong to assume it isn't meant to be studied entirely. It is divided into sections based on category, and that snippet of Torah in the middle of each page is sometimes references from many parts of the Torah to make it easier to follow topics. This is what the Mishna was all about, organizing the Torah in a way that you wouldn't have to read the entire thing to find the parts you want to read. The Talmud expanded on the Mishna, this is why I say there is no point to study the Torah for the Jewish student.

I don't know why you think Jews that spread around the world only took the Torah with them. At least in Europe there is plenty of evidence that virtually every "temple" or important cultural center had one or more copies. Either way this is a silly point to argue about.

Banshee wrote:
And I don't really know what do you call 'Jewish identity politics'. If you mean Zionism, then you are linking politics with religion and the only religion that seems to enforce politics with religion is the Islamism, but I could be wrong with that as well. Also, Israel, while it claims to be a Jewish state, it does not represent Judaism at all.

I will link a video for this...

Banshee wrote:
I'm aware that there is a minority of ultra-orthodox people that may follow one or more Talmuds, but they are a minority and I don't know if they do or support the attrocity that you said in your posts. I'm almost sure that what you describe is a fantasy, even for these people.

You have this backwards, the minority of ultra-orthodox Jews study the Torah. There could be some confusion on this point since some groups consider themselves orthodox when others don't, but go with it for a min. These people hate Zionism, and they believe Israel is blasphemy (I'm paraphrasing). Consequently, Zionists are constantly attacking them and defaming them for all sorts of nonsense, because they can't call them anti-semitic hah! You can read all about this ideological civil war even in Haaretz.

The majority of everyone else is called a "reform Jew", and studies the Talmud.

Banshee wrote:
This is BS. They've been kicked out of some countries due to power hungry creatures who had their own power hungry ambitions that were incompatible with the presence of these people.

It is very foolish to assume that everyone just hates Jews, but I see you're getting closer to understanding the truth. Their presence was incompatible with the society they were in... that's the answer. Full stop.

Banshee wrote:
For starters, Charles Darwin was originally anglican and ended up being agnostic.

Charles Darwin did not believe in ethnic supremacy, at least with human beings.

I never said he believed in Jewish supremacy or racism, I said his cultural bias, helped shape his theory on evolution.

Banshee wrote:
Ethnic supremacy is not a jewish value either. In fact, jews uses "kippah" as a way to symbolize that God is above all humans and there are not such things known as castes or differences between human people that would make some inferior to others.

Finally, Charles Darwin's theory is not immoral. It is realistic, damn it. And intuitive. Those who adapt to their environment are the ones who will succeed better. It happens with anything in life in any situation. Of course that the concept of environment and the meaning of 'adapt to their environment' may vary and be affected by several unpredictable factors...

Ethnic supremacy is a semantic difference to species supremacy. This has nothing to do with gods or funny hats. The idea that some race or breed can be universally better than another is the foundation of racism, AND Darwinism.

His theory might make sense to you, the way Trump's semi-racist truisms make sense to thousands of Texans or whatnot, but it's wrong. Plain wrong. Most life evolves by accident, and in many cases is under no pressure to be better. Life is most successful when it co-exists with many other species, but this idea of non-supremacy being the important bit, is incompatible with Darwinism.

I'm saying that there are a gazillion types of life, some clone themselves, some can't even multiple without infecting a host, while others cross polinate to breed, and others have sex. There are some animals that will change sex if they can't find a mate long enough. Sometimes ants will overfeed a small group of hatchlings to create a queen.

It's ok, you just haven't thought about this topic long enough.

Banshee wrote:
That has probably happened in your wild imagination inside your twisted brain. But in the real history, this is a fallacy. There is no such thing in Judaism. And the before you accusing the Babylonian Talmud of such atrocity or the rabbis who wrote it, you should at least try to know them better.

I will hazard a guess that I've studied the Talmud more than you have.

Banshee wrote:
You are the blind one who think that all concentration camps in the nazi Germany were the same thing.

Which is why I only focused on a few camps to keep the argument linear, because I know someone will say "yea but look here at this other camp" as proof of something happening. So I'm deliberately keeping the topic narrow. Sorry if this bothers you.

Banshee wrote:
Those who survived were executed with gas or other methods when they were considered to be useless.

I'm perfectly willing to accept Nazis killed useless workers, I wouldn't put it past _any_ labour camp warden to do the same in war time, BUT I can't accept that they would go through such an elaborate scheme of inefficiently killing and processing the people, when they could just shoot them. Since that didn't happen much according according to testimonials, I would assume that labourers weren't persecuted to that extent.

The Polish soldier who went undercover led an uprising against the Nazis, and some people escaped, if the Nazis were just murderous assholes, why didn't they kill him? He survived for 3yrs in the camp before he was released. Ironically it was the Soviet sympathizers that killed him a few years later for working for the "west"...

Some people die in American Prisons, and Saudi prisons, and Israeli prisons, do we call people who get out "survivors"? The Polish guy punched the bear in the nose and lived to tell.

Fast forward 2min:



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Administrative Warning: Administrative Warning: Political Conspirator Detected!The political opinions expressed by this user in this forum are blindly hostile against Israel and whatever he considers to be Zionism or Zionists. Samples of such behavior can be seen here, here and here. His tactics consists on desconstructing what he considers to be the 'official story' blaming "Zionist" media for "lies", but he never has the intention to prove his claims. He tries to use psychological rethorics to provoke others to prove it in his place and only seem to accept "proofs" (a.k.a. factoids) that seems to fit his shaped opinion about the subject. A proper explanation on his tactics with samples can be seen here and here.


This kind of behavior is not welcomed in this community at all, neither are any kind of hate speech against any group of people. Such attitude is considered trolling. This warning notice is restricted to the Political and Economical Discussion Forum and maybe it will be removed once administrators consider that the attitude of the user has changed.

Last edited by G-E on Sun May 29, 2016 10:50 am; edited 1 time in total

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Sir Modsalot
Commander


Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Location: Mixing psilocybin in your drinks.

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
We can talk when your madness ends, have you tried therapy? I'm sure you'd get along famously with a Jewish shrink...


Not to sound like a 5th grader/Donald Trump, but you did start it. Ready to fess up yet as to what you're getting out of this, or are you going to keep dodging that question like a damn coward with nothing to prove but how stupid you are?
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G-E
General


Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sir Modsalot wrote:
Not to sound like a 5th grader/Donald Trump, but you did start it. Ready to fess up yet as to what you're getting out of this, or are you going to keep dodging that question like a damn coward with nothing to prove but how stupid you are?






I found this just for you, that's all you get.
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Administrative Warning: Administrative Warning: Political Conspirator Detected!The political opinions expressed by this user in this forum are blindly hostile against Israel and whatever he considers to be Zionism or Zionists. Samples of such behavior can be seen here, here and here. His tactics consists on desconstructing what he considers to be the 'official story' blaming "Zionist" media for "lies", but he never has the intention to prove his claims. He tries to use psychological rethorics to provoke others to prove it in his place and only seem to accept "proofs" (a.k.a. factoids) that seems to fit his shaped opinion about the subject. A proper explanation on his tactics with samples can be seen here and here.


This kind of behavior is not welcomed in this community at all, neither are any kind of hate speech against any group of people. Such attitude is considered trolling. This warning notice is restricted to the Political and Economical Discussion Forum and maybe it will be removed once administrators consider that the attitude of the user has changed.

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Sir Modsalot
Commander


Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Location: Mixing psilocybin in your drinks.

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's not an answer. That's a cop-out. Are you going to stop this farce or not?
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Iran
Cyborg Specialist


Joined: 23 Mar 2011

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hitler is the greatest German that ever lived. Sieg heil!

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Bittah Commander
Defense Minister


Joined: 21 May 2003
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hitler was not German...
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Volgin
Commander


Joined: 07 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hitler is Austrian. AUSTRIAN. GERMANS ARE NOT AUSTRIANS.

Also, Jesus Christ banshee, can you like, start cracking down on some of the nazi shit coming up here? It's really gross dude.
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Deformat
Defense Minister


Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Location: Bucharest,Romania Posts:29240348568

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Volgin wrote:
Also, Jesus Christ banshee, can you like, start cracking down on some of the nazi shit coming up here? It's really gross dude.


Ditto this.

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G-E
General


Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Winston Churchill wrote a lovely article in 1920, explaining the danger of the Jewish Communists. Yet he allied with them to beat Germany for business reasons. Watch these two videos:








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Administrative Warning: Administrative Warning: Political Conspirator Detected!The political opinions expressed by this user in this forum are blindly hostile against Israel and whatever he considers to be Zionism or Zionists. Samples of such behavior can be seen here, here and here. His tactics consists on desconstructing what he considers to be the 'official story' blaming "Zionist" media for "lies", but he never has the intention to prove his claims. He tries to use psychological rethorics to provoke others to prove it in his place and only seem to accept "proofs" (a.k.a. factoids) that seems to fit his shaped opinion about the subject. A proper explanation on his tactics with samples can be seen here and here.


This kind of behavior is not welcomed in this community at all, neither are any kind of hate speech against any group of people. Such attitude is considered trolling. This warning notice is restricted to the Political and Economical Discussion Forum and maybe it will be removed once administrators consider that the attitude of the user has changed.

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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2016 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
I never said the Talmud was one book, but you would be wrong to assume it isn't meant to be studied entirely. It is divided into sections based on category, and that snippet of Torah in the middle of each page is sometimes references from many parts of the Torah to make it easier to follow topics.


Actually, we are both equivocated about several matters in this subject. There is a source that explains the whole thing intuitively and why the Talmud does not replace the Torah. It actually complements it:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:GUAF8lE4biUJ:www.aish.com/atr/Torah_versus_Talmud.html+&cd=3&hl=pt-BR&ct=clnk&gl=br&lr=lang_de|lang_en|lang_es|lang_fr|lang_it|lang_nl|lang_pt&client=firefox-b


I had to use the Google cache, because the site has gone offline.



G-E wrote:
https://youtu.be/a24QAdR12io


The fool of this video commits the same mistake that you do. Israel is a Jewish state. It claims to be one, ok. But they do not represent Judaism. It works in a different way than Vatican (with Catholic religion) or United Kingdom (Anglican). There are several countries that officially follow a religion. But you can't claim that they represent this religion under any circumstances. So, Israeli politics or politics from Zionist groups does not reflect the policies of any religion, and of course I'm talking about Judaism here.

G-E wrote:
The idea that some race or breed can be universally better than another is the foundation of racism, AND Darwinism.


Racism, only. Darwinism is based in the idea of a specie be better adapted to a certain environment than others. That doesn't mean that it is a better specie or superior. It is just more adapted to the environment that it lives. If it migrates to another environment, a specie X that was better adapted to the previous environment than a specie Y could have a disadvantage in the new environment to the specie Y and may fade away there.

This is very different from Hitler's idea of superior race. For Hitler, arians were superior everywhere. Trump's racism against mexicans and chinese doesn't make sense for me either.

G-E wrote:
Most life evolves by accident, and in many cases is under no pressure to be better. Life is most successful when it co-exists with many other species, but this idea of non-supremacy being the important bit, is incompatible with Darwinism.


You misunderstood Darwinism. His theory is not incompatible with the co-existance of several species and it doesn't evoke a supreme specie. It focus the ability of a certain specie to adapt to the environment that it lives at. If they are not adapted, they will fade away after some generations. That's all. Multiples species can be adapted to the same environment and co-exist. That's the damn reality. Do you really think that you are alone in this world? Of course not. Neither Darwin did.

And Darwin has never denied that life evolves by accident. In this case, it is called DNA replication. Although the expression 'evolves' in that sentence is questionable. What happens is that genetic mutation happens on every individual. If this is good or bad, nobody really knows.


G-E wrote:
I will hazard a guess that I've studied the Talmud more than you have.


And I am 100% sure you've wasted your time and learned nothing from it. Your ability to misunderstand things you read or distort them to make it fit your twisted paranoia is quite clear for the people who have been reading your posts in this topic. So, I trust more the knowledge of an ant about the Talmud than yours. I know more of other aspects of Judaism than you and these aspects are certainly referenced in the Talmud in some way.


G-E wrote:
Which is why I only focused on a few camps to keep the argument linear


Weird, because the arguments that you exposed are related to camps that were not being discussed in this topic.


G-E wrote:
BUT I can't accept that they would go through such an elaborate scheme of inefficiently killing and processing the people, when they could just shoot them. Since that didn't happen much according according to testimonials, I would assume that labourers weren't persecuted to that extent.


I can only speculate several reasons for it: They actually had to hide these mechanics from their own population and, at the same time, they had to maintain their war resources and the SS staff from these places. So, these slaves actually had tasks to do. They worked on constructions, they worked for the armaments industry, coal mines, foundries, chemical plants, etc, according to this reference.


G-E wrote:
https://youtu.be/gnT5SJxxRO0


Five ways where this fool looks like a fool in this video.

Before getting to each of his points, money is not a creation of Judaism or the jewish culture. But bagles are good.

1) Work to remove Holocaust denial laws: Few countries adopted that and they did on their own. Their authorities were not necessarily jews when they did that and jews shouldn't be blamed for it either. Blame your authorities and provide proper arguments against it. As you can see in this place, I'm not banning people for denying Holocaust, although I think they are pretty much looking stupid by doing that here.

2) Stop obsessing over Israel: Nationalism exists everywhere, including USA, UK and many other countries. I am personally against nationalism, but if other people are nationalists, I couldn't give a damn to be honest. So, in short, the guy in the video should mind his own business and stop being a dick.

3) Support identity for all people: as I said, the jewish supremacy race bullshit is bullshit. It is not part of the religion and if some jew do that, he is misunderstanding/misusing his own religion. In short: the guy in the video is ignorant.

4) Support borders for all nations: Israel claims to be a Jewish state, but.. it is not restricted to jews. Almost 20% of its population are muslims and there are christians and followers of other religions. The Israeli State does not sabotage these religions nor forces its followers to be jews, in the same way you see in european and american countries. Also, Israel may have its own way to evaluate who they consider to be jew and who doesn't. Apparently, secular jews seem to be in disadvantage and they may not necessarily count with Israel as a place to run if things in their country go wrong. So, the guy is just jealous of something that he doesn't know much about it.

5) Stop defamation: This is something personal. Some may say anti-semite and others provide arguments. And guess what: this kind of behavior is not exclusivity from jews. And it happens even with those who defamate the jews itself, such as the guy in this video.

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G-E
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Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2016 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think I need to quote you on this one, but...

You keep insisting that Israel is a Jewish state but not a state of Judaism, which I concur with, but I just think that's entirely irrelevant. Think of it this way, if you're gay or bisexual, and you say you're actually the other, who has the right to suggest any different? Surely you should know better right?

So when a bunch of secular Jews, that is non-worshipping or really bad people that break all the laws of Moses, call themselves "Jews", we can argue the point with fairly honest criticisms, but it still makes no difference. They are the supreme authority on what a "Jew" is, and if they call themselves Jews, what right do we have to say they aren't?

Let's use America as an example. Once upon a time, the upper-middle class American was very educated, most people were involved in politics, there was a civility of discourse. People used to take pride in having liberty, and went out of their way to vote for even minor things. Things have changed, America isn't really like that anymore. We still call the uneducated black hoodrat from Chicago American don't we?

How can you insist that the Jews must not have changed, and that there even is such a thing as a "real" Jew? This is why I keep bringing up the point of Jewish identity and Jewish ideology, because as many smart people have pointed out, there is a ghetto mentality about some Jews, others support Communism everywhere, and others only care about Zionism. These are competing ideologies, yet they are all Jewish in nature, and stem from different rationalizations of the Jewish condition.

For thousands of years, Jews have been expelled from countries, but just as often, they lived in closed communities within those countries. These ghettos were not a bad thing, many of them enjoyed their exclusively Jewish quarters, where they could let their inner Jew out to play. Many of the most conservative Jews to this day feel that they are happiest in a ghetto. The interview I posted with Gilad Atzon further up discusses even how Israel is making itself into yet another ghetto surrounded by walls!

Then you have the Communists, the Bolsheviks, the Neo-conservatives, they are the militaristic cancer that wants to destroy freedom and subjugate people into unthinking workers for the sake of the intellectual few. They are dangerous ideologues that aren't content to co-exist, they want to change the world, and NOT for the better.

Then you have the Zionists, who felt that Jews needed a new homeland, to remake the world's Jewry into something they could be proud of. No longer would the average Jew be silently roaming the ghettos and flailing around in his chair reading the Talmud, the NEW Jew would be a real human, with all the responsibilities of running a real country. They had this crazy idea that they could force the rest of the Jews to accept this way of being, except most of them didn't. Most of the German Jews refused to go along with the Transfer Agreement, and only moved to Israel after the war.

There is a global fight among the latter two groups, which involved the Germans accidentally helping to create the Soviet Union, and then later accidentally helping create the state of Israel. The Germans were used, the English were used, the Americans were used...

More than 400 million people on Earth have died as a result of these Jewish schemes and manipulation. Going back to the American Civil War, the Napoleonic Wars, both World Wars etc.

Yet I'm the bad guy for daring to point the finger?
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Volgin
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Joined: 07 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2016 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quick, hide the schekels, Moische! He's on to us!

[img]http://static.wixstatic.com/media/bb1c43_a47547ba973444f79aeb713de6c5285c.gif_srz_p_607_504_75_22_0.50_1.20_0.00_gif_srz[/img]

Oi, vey, we need to come up with a new way to keep the goyim away from us before we're all screwed.



Soon...






Seriously though, this is pathetic. I'm done with this place. We're seriously entertaining the ideas that Jews run the world, what's next? We gonna look for Obama's birth certificate? Hitler's secret UFO base in the antarctic? This is pathetic.
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FurryQueen
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2016 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just wonder if g-e has any argument besides some cadre of Jews obtaining mass shekels and world domination. If that's the best you've got, you're on a seriously dangerous road.
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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2016 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
Yet I'm the bad guy for daring to point the finger?


Really, I don't even know where to start in this madness you've just wrote. To be really honest, I did not understand your point at all, because you use many axioms that doesn't make any sense to exemplify it.

So, let's try the example 1 here:

G-E wrote:
Think of it this way, if you're gay or bisexual, and you say you're actually the other, who has the right to suggest any different? Surely you should know better right?


Yea, the person should know better their sexual orientation. But that doesn't make them the official representative from bisexuals or gays, regardless of whatever the person claims to be.


G-E wrote:
So when a bunch of secular Jews, that is non-worshipping or really bad people that break all the laws of Moses, call themselves "Jews", we can argue the point with fairly honest criticisms, but it still makes no difference. They are the supreme authority on what a "Jew" is, and if they call themselves Jews, what right do we have to say they aren't?


Here's where the problem starts.

1) Secular jews are jews, just as secular catholics are catholics and secular muslims are muslims. They do not misuse the religion by being secular. Secular jews are not less jewish than orthodox or haredim. The Torah alone has 613 commandments. The Talmud has even more. And likewise any set of laws, you may find laws that do have a higher priority than others and there won't be anyone on Earth that will follow all these laws at once. Even the most orthodox rabbis may skip or fail to follow several of them in many moments of their lives.  And let me be clear here: this problem is not restricted to Judaism. It happens with any set of laws. It happens in your country as well, where the prime minister/president/leader and even representatives of the justice may fail to follow its constitution accurately.

In the case of the Judaism and other older religions like Catholicism and Islamism, it is very hard, if not impossible, to recreate all the living conditions of those who originally followed these religions in the place you live. So, people have to adapt the concepts of their religions to the place they live, in order to adapt themselves to the community they live at (which will not be forced to follow their religion). So, the most important thing here is that the laws with higher priority must be followed or at least adapted as much as possible to their situation. I'm not saying that the traditions, culture and other laws must not be taken into consideration, but the most important laws are certainly the priorities for anyone who follow those religions.

Finally, when I talk about misusing the religion, it is mostly failing to the most important laws (usually the well known 10 commandments). And that may happen with anyone, from seculars to orthodoxies.


2) Saying that secular jews does not worship God is a fallacy. Of course they do. They just do not follow all traditions of the religion. That's all, but their faith in God is usually the same one from an orthodox follower. And I'm sure that it happens with any other religion too.


3) And finally, answering to your question here: these jews who misuse the religion does not represent Judaism. The same applies to the jews that does not misuse the religion. The Judaism does not have a centralized representative that can answer for the religion. What it has is a bunch of rabbis that may answer for their own synagogues only.


G-E wrote:
How can you insist that the Jews must not have changed, and that there even is such a thing as a "real" Jew?


Do you wanna know why? Really wanna know why? For a very simple reason: as usual, you misunderstood completely what I said in this topic. This is why. Because I've never said that Judaism doesn't change. What I've been defending all the time is that the core of Judaism is the Torah and, regardless of the time of the history, Judaism must never contradict the Torah, specially Moses's 10 commandments. Your crazy/lunatic ideas of the Talmud contradicted the Torah in absurd ways, which is why I am sure it will never represent or describe Judaism. Furthermore, I reiterate that Judaism has no centralized authority for almost 2000 years. That also contributes to it. There are branches of it that I considered to be jewish as long as it doesn't contradicts the main commandments of the Torah.


G-E wrote:
This is why I keep bringing up the point of Jewish identity and Jewish ideology, because as many smart people have pointed out, there is a ghetto mentality about some Jews, others support Communism everywhere, and others only care about Zionism. These are competing ideologies, yet they are all Jewish in nature, and stem from different rationalizations of the Jewish condition.


And you fail to understand that there are communists that follow any religion, zionists that follow any religion and that you are conveniently calling to be Jewish. The Judaism is not a religion that promotes a strong state that divides money equaly among its population. So, you can't say that Communism has any connection with Judaism. It doesn't. Regarding Zionism, its connections with Judaism are questionable and it depends on how the Torah is interpreted.


G-E wrote:
These ghettos were not a bad thing, many of them enjoyed their exclusively Jewish quarters, where they could let their inner Jew out to play. Many of the most conservative Jews to this day feel that they are happiest in a ghetto.


How do you know that? Have you ever interviewed them before taking such conclusion? Don't you think that you are making shit out of nowhere? Because I am 100% sure of it.


G-E wrote:
Then you have the Zionists, who felt that Jews needed a new homeland, to remake the world's Jewry into something they could be proud of. No longer would the average Jew be silently roaming the ghettos and flailing around in his chair reading the Talmud, the NEW Jew would be a real human, with all the responsibilities of running a real country. They had this crazy idea that they could force the rest of the Jews to accept this way of being, except most of them didn't. Most of the German Jews refused to go along with the Transfer Agreement, and only moved to Israel after the war.


And yea, let's make the previous shit into a bigger shit, of course. It's like a snowball, it always grow.

G-E wrote:
There is a global fight among the latter two groups, which involved the Germans accidentally helping to create the Soviet Union, and then later accidentally helping create the state of Israel. The Germans were used, the English were used, the Americans were used...

More than 400 million people on Earth have died as a result of these Jewish schemes and manipulation. Going back to the American Civil War, the Napoleonic Wars, both World Wars etc.


And yes, the non-sense reaches astronomic levels. Now, let's get to the real life, shall we? You complain at the numbers that historians provides for the millions jews that were killed by the nazi Germany, yet you create something even bigger out of the bullshit that circulates your brain. How do you expect to have any credibility with that?

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G-E
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Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You and I might agree that Jews aren't a "race" per se, but I guarantee most Jews feel they are actually a race, on some level, which influences the way they look at us. It isn't an individual I'm talking about here, if they grow up in a Jewish family, doing traditional Jewish things, celebrating Jewish festivals, it makes no difference if they believe in the Torah, or god, or the holocaust, they identify as Jewish.

Jewish identity politics, is the political wrangling between various Jews to define was a Jew is, or should be. This is a struggle they deal with constantly, with ideologues like Zionists trying to make the world Jewry into Zionists, and Communists doing similar things. They use the survival of Israel as an ideological bludgeon against the rest of us, so that we can't even question their militarism and colonization of the Arab world. Others use the threats of hate-speech/anti-semitism to bludgeon intellectuals into silence or obedience, so they can't properly analyze history without official bias.

Your point of view doesn't matter, neither does mine. We are on the outside looking in, and we're not racially qualified to have an opinion.

And yes actually, my family knew several Jewish families in the Hungarian ghettos. As I mentioned my grandfather saved a number of them from deportation too. The average Hungarian/Austrian/German Jew wasn't the problem in the leadup to WWII, most of them supported Germany, which is why they had to be sacrificed for the "greater good" of Zionism. The holocaust narrative provided a new culturally binding event they could exploit to further the Zionist plan.

Hitler didn't know any of this, he was worried about the Slavic Jews coming from the Bolshevik revolution, and the Gypsies, and most Europeans wanted to get rid of them too.

Most of this is well documented fact in newspapers and speeches of the time, but since you all know better, I guess I won't find anymore of those to show you. Obviously you don't believe Saint Churchill when he said they are a problem too.

What if all the Mayors, Governors, Kings, Popes, Generals etc were right all along, and you've just been fooled by decades of clever media blitzes and fake documentaries?
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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. Race

Homo sapiens sapiens is a race. Jews are people who claim to follow Judaism. It is not a race. There are not such genetic code differentiation that would make jews, muslims or christians into a races.


2. The fallacy of "jewish identity politics"

Religions are ideologies. This is what they are (and not races). As such, you can view them as a tool that aids people to live their lives.

And, considering Judaism as a tool, jews are the users of the tool Judaism. It is that simple. The way each user uses the tool is different. The features of this tool that are used by these users are different. And the objective of each user of the tool by using it is different as well. If these users get together to defend an idea, the idea belongs to the users and not the tools.

This is why I reiterate that your discourse associates the users of a tool to the tool itself in a completely wrong way.

To exemplify my idea, consider the following situation:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm a user of Windows 7 operational system, from Microsoft in my desktop and laptop.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

As a user of Windows, I do not represent Microsoft, nor Windows itself. I am not obligated to use every single feature from Windows (I.e.: I don't use disk defrag for eons). My actions does not reflect actions of Windows nor can be generalized as actions of Windows users. If I suddenly decide to delete my system32 folder, inject some virus or screw up all my drivers, I will be misusing Windows. Microsoft cannot take blame for my actions as Windows users. If I upgrade Windows 7 to Windows 10, I will still be using Windows, because, likewise Windows 7, Windows 10 retains the concepts of what define Windows to be Windows. If I decide to use a GNU Linux with an interface that recreates Windows's interface, I'll be using something else than Windows. It could be an aberration, but definitely not Windows. Finally, if I get together with other Windows users and start lobbying towards an idea that uses Windows (or some of its concepts), this lobby of mine will have no relationship with Windows, nor Microsoft.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

So, returning to your concept of "Jewish identity politics", it is actually a set of politics of a group of users of the tool Judaism, using ideas based on this tool for some random purposes. This is not Jewish identity politics. This is politics of a group of people where some of them happens to be jews. But this is not related to the religion itself.



3. Communism


Do you really know what the hell is Communism? Please, get yourself acquainted with the term before misusing it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

And, yea, in my personal opinion, it sucks completely and ruins communities. And that happens for two simple reasons:

1) It doesn't respect the individuality of each person.

2) It gives too much power for a very small group of people, leveling all others to piece of crap.


There is nothing jewish in this concept and its implementation is definitely incompatible with the Torah. Please, stop associating Judaism with this shit. It just makes you look like a fool and it ruins your already ruined credibility in this politics forum.



4. Zionists


They are not trying to make the world jewry. This is crap of your stupid paranoia. Get over it.



5. My point of view on Judaism


You said I'm outside viewer from it, right? No, I'm not. I am qualified to have an opinion about them. One of my grandpas didn't simply know jews. He was one (he is no longer alive). I have a lot of jewish friends and as well as jews in my family and I've been into several synagogues because of them and learned something from it. But hell, I'm homo sapiens sapiens and so are my jewish friends and parents as well as the non-jewish friends and parents too. I guess you are also one as well. And the fact that we are homo sapiens sapiens doesn't make us superior than other animals, really.



5. About the europeans that wanted to get rid of them


First of all, the term 'most' is being misused by you. There were some organizations trying to expel jews from their countries, but it is incorrect that to say that most of the people wanted that, because you cannot interview these people anymore to know their real opinion. Several authorities of the Catholic churches and the leaders of some countries really wanted to expel them. But you cannot simply use these facts to conclude that there were something wrong with jews itself, specially if the reason for this persecution is power. I'm not saying that all of these jews are saints either. But your claims that "Mayors, Governors, Kings, Popes, Generals etc were right all along" has no merit at all.

   
For everything else I haven't comment: they are just bull crap. All of it, except for the two sentences that you mentioned your family.

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G-E
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Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

See this is the core of our disagreement, you can't seperate the Jewish culture from the Jewish religion, and I can. I'm comfortable calling a secular Jew a Jew because he/she grew up the same way.

If I take your family right now, and plonk them into Portugal, you don't become Portugese, but if two Brazilian parents have a child in Portugal, the child is Portugese.... why? Because the law says so, yet genetically they are Brazilian. Am I more Canadian being born here, than someone who's been in Canada longer than I've lived, but was born elsewhere?

Do you understand that Jewishness isn't a legal construct to them? They stick together, in most countries a good number of them lived in their own communities without much interaction outside, with even less breeding with non-Jews.

If someone gets a Canadian citizenship and practices Sikh culture, goes to the Sikh ceremonies, it's the same thing. They may not say it, but they don't have to, they intend to remain a Sikh. The next generation may or may not feel the same way though.

The culture is what makes them Jews, not the religion! The religion just shapes their culture!

Why is this so hard for you? I just don't get it.

Or do you just believe that it doesn't matter what they feel or think about it?

PS. Maybe Zionism isn't a big religion where you are, but up here it's massively influential, they run schools that indoctrinate people into all the Zionist beliefs, exactly like the Saudi madrassas all over Europe are designed to create more extremist Wahhabis...

PPS. Imagine for a second that the official Swiss army invaded Belgiium and destroyed NATO headquarters, would you say "you can blame the Swiss people for what the army did!", because the Swiss people are good and friendly, they would never support murder and death? Would you say the Swiss Army doesn't represent Swiss people?
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Bittah Commander
Defense Minister


Joined: 21 May 2003
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee wrote:
1. Race

Homo sapiens sapiens is a race. Jews are people who claim to follow Judaism. It is not a race. There are not such genetic code differentiation that would make jews, muslims or christians into a races.

According to Orthodox Jews you can only be a Jew by birth (and if only one of the parents is Jewish, the child is only considered a Jew if the mother is). So if you'd follow this rule, you actually can say that Jews are a race in a sense.
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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know that, Bittah. But they are still not a race, even in this sense, because the father could be anything and the genetic code of the mother does not necessarily differentiate to be different from the non-jews from her community.

And... some orthodox synagogues also offer the process of conversion of non-jews that would definitely destroy your theory.

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G-E
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Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.jewfaq.org/whoisjew.htm

Quote:
Who is a Jew?

A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism.

It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do. A person born to non-Jewish parents who has not undergone the formal process of conversion but who believes everything that Orthodox Jews believe and observes every law and custom of Judaism is still a non-Jew, even in the eyes of the most liberal movements of Judaism, and a person born to a Jewish mother who is an atheist and never practices the Jewish religion is still a Jew, even in the eyes of the ultra-Orthodox.


Now can you stop insisting that your theory supersedes theirs?
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G-E
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BTW Here's snippets from the Talmud section: http://www.jewfaq.org/torah.htm#Talmud

The Talmud explains the Torah, without the Talmud (and the oral traditions of Rabbi interpretations, it means nothing (like I said):
Quote:
Talmud: In addition to the written scriptures we have an "Oral Torah," a tradition explaining what the above scriptures mean and how to interpret them and apply the Laws.

Studying a page a day (like I said):
Quote:
In recent times, many observant Jews have taken up the practice of studying a page of Talmud every day. This practice, referred to as daf yomi (page of the day), was started at the First International Congress of the Agudath Yisrael World Movement in August, 1923.

The ambivalence of truth (like I said):
Quote:
The Talmud is not easy to read. It reminds me of someone else's class notes for a college lecture you never attended. There are often gaps in the reasoning where it is assumed that you already know what they are talking about, and concepts are often expressed in a sort of shorthand. Biblical verses that support a teaching are often referenced by only two or three words. The Talmud preserves a variety of views on every issue, and does not always clearly identify which view is the accepted one.

The fact that encourages digrssion to the absurd (like I said):
Quote:
Although these divisions seem to indicate subject matter, it is important to note that the Mishnah and the Talmud engage in quite a bit of free-association, thus widely diverse subjects may be discussed in a seder or masekhtah.

Talmud is a primary source (like I said):
Quote:
The best-known of these codes are Rambam's Mishneh Torah and Joseph Caro's Shulchan Arukh. In their own time, these works were very controversial, because they did not identify the Torah or Talmudic basis for their opinions and generally ignored conflicting opinions. There was concern that such works would discourage Jews from studying the primary sources: Torah and Talmud. Today, however, these sources are well-respected. In fact, the Shulchan Arukh is often treated as a primary source.


So just to remind you, I can back up everything I've said, it's up to you to stop discarding it.
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Banshee
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
Who is a Jew?

A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism.

It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do. A person born to non-Jewish parents who has not undergone the formal process of conversion but who believes everything that Orthodox Jews believe and observes every law and custom of Judaism is still a non-Jew, even in the eyes of the most liberal movements of Judaism, and a person born to a Jewish mother who is an atheist and never practices the Jewish religion is still a Jew, even in the eyes of the ultra-Orthodox.


Look, when I said "Jews are people who claim to follow Judaism", I forgot about this matter of those who are considered jews are their son/daugther of jewish mothers or passed through a process of conversion. So, your definition in the previous post is correct, but I still stand correct when I say that it is not a race.

G-E wrote:
The culture is what makes them Jews, not the religion! The religion just shapes their culture!


That completely contradicts the definition you posted above.

G-E wrote:
PPS. Imagine for a second that the official Swiss army invaded Belgiium and destroyed NATO headquarters, would you say "you can blame the Swiss people for what the army did!", because the Swiss people are good and friendly, they would never support murder and death? Would you say the Swiss Army doesn't represent Swiss people?


Their army answers to their government. The Swiss government would take the blame, in this case. Not the people. The people may not have necessarily supported this action, although there are elements that did.

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G-E
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee wrote:
I still stand correct when I say that it is not a race.

I never disagreed with you, I just never agreed that the matter is up to us to define. It would be a Baptist pastor telling some guy that he's not actually gay, he's just confused.... it just doesn't matter what we think.

Banshee wrote:
That completely contradicts the definition you posted above.

I prefer to define Jews as those who self-identify as Jews, like do Jewish things, obey Jewish traditions, even if they don't give two shits about the religious aspect. The Jewish culture can be defined exactly like traditional Imperial Japanese culture, they have a way of acting, they have traditions and ceremonies, that all follow some precedent with some uniformity.

I know a Jewish business owner who for all intents is no more "Jewish" than I am, but he buys Kosher food usually, serves traditional European-Jew cakes and cookies to his guests, and made sure his kid had a Bar Mitzvah, that's the extent of it -- in no other way does he do anything remotely traditionally Jewish. Does he identify as Jewish, yes, and that's good enough for me.

Banshee wrote:
Their army answers to their government. The Swiss government would take the blame, in this case. Not the people. The people may not have necessarily supported this action, although there are elements that did.

Right so when the Israeli army steamrolls Palestinian kids, bombs schools, arrests them for throwing pebbles at their tanks, you and I will agree that they are not acting according to the laws of Moses, but they are part of the apparatus that makes up the JEWISH STATE, and therefore represents all Israelis who do not get out there and protest against it. In the eyes of the law, complicity is guilt too.

The same applies for any Jew outside of Israel who supports Israeli occupation and colonization of Palestine, by sending money or defending them in public for doing it. There can be no distinction drawn between these people and real Zionist intellectual leaders, for they act and move as an irregular army.

Do you understand where I'm going with this?
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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
The Talmud explains the Torah, without the Talmud (and the oral traditions of Rabbi interpretations, it means nothing (like I said):

Quote:
Talmud: In addition to the written scriptures we have an "Oral Torah," a tradition explaining what the above scriptures mean and how to interpret them and apply the Laws.



Don't you understand? In addition to the written scriptures... addition! Mark this word: addition! It's not replacement! It's not exclusion! It's addition. Learn how to read, damn it. It's a guide on how to interpret the Torah. It's not the Torah itself.

G-E wrote:
The ambivalence of truth (like I said):
Quote:
The Talmud is not easy to read. It reminds me of someone else's class notes for a college lecture you never attended. There are often gaps in the reasoning where it is assumed that you already know what they are talking about, and concepts are often expressed in a sort of shorthand. Biblical verses that support a teaching are often referenced by only two or three words. The Talmud preserves a variety of views on every issue, and does not always clearly identify which view is the accepted one.


Get your facts straight: the objective is not achieve a so called truth. It is a tool to interpret the Torah. And how they interpret the Torah? If you simply use the notes of these rabbis without reasoning, you do not know how to read things. If you use the notes of these rabbis to clear up your confusion, then you are in the right way.

So, yea, Judaism is not a set of a clear instructions, although parts of the Talmud may have some of it, but these are the conclusions of the rabbi.


G-E wrote:
The fact that encourages digrssion to the absurd (like I said):
Quote:
Although these divisions seem to indicate subject matter, it is important to note that the Mishnah and the Talmud engage in quite a bit of free-association, thus widely diverse subjects may be discussed in a seder or masekhtah.


It doesn't encourage absurd. It understands that people may have their own interpretation of the Torah and that the rabbis who wrote this Talmud are humans. As humans, they may have committed mistakes and they instigate the community to find these mistakes and discuss them.



G-E wrote:
Talmud is a primary source (like I said):
Quote:
The best-known of these codes are Rambam's Mishneh Torah and Joseph Caro's Shulchan Arukh. In their own time, these works were very controversial, because they did not identify the Torah or Talmudic basis for their opinions and generally ignored conflicting opinions. There was concern that such works would discourage Jews from studying the primary sources: Torah and Talmud. Today, however, these sources are well-respected. In fact, the Shulchan Arukh is often treated as a primary source.


As the text said: the primary sources are both the Torah and the Talmud. And they are respected, so the Torah is just as important as the Talmud. The last sentence indicates that the specific community that you linked and few others may priorize Shulchan Arukh, but that's a local matter and not the global judaism as a whole.


G-E wrote:
So just to remind you, I can back up everything I've said, it's up to you to stop discarding it.


Nope. What I can remind you is that you cannot interpret texts correctly.

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Banshee
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
I prefer to define Jews as those who self-identify as Jews,


The same mistake I was doing and you've complained. So, I really can't understand your point here. It seems that the definition of son/daughter of jewish mother or converted through a valid process isn't interesting for your pro-Palestine/Hitler objectives.

G-E wrote:
Right so when the Israeli army steamrolls Palestinian kids, bombs schools, arrests them for throwing pebbles at their tanks, you and I will agree that they are not acting according to the laws of Moses, but they are part of the apparatus that makes up the JEWISH STATE, and therefore represents all Israelis who do not get out there and protest against it. In the eyes of the law, complicity is guilt too.

The same applies for any Jew outside of Israel who supports Israeli occupation and colonization of Palestine, by sending money or defending them in public for doing it. There can be no distinction drawn between these people and real Zionist intellectual leaders, for they act and move as an irregular army.

Do you understand where I'm going with this?


I knew you were trying to reach that conclusion and I reiterate that your conclusion of blaming jews is plain wrong. As I said, if the Israeli army is doing that and they answer to the Israeli government. Blame the Israeli government. Not its people.

Bear in mind that Israeli's government is a parliamentarianism. People choose the parties that takes the chairs from the Knesset.  The prime minister is chosen by its politicians and not the population. And the army answers to the ministers set by the Prime Ministers, if I'm not mistaken. I don't know what is the role of the president there, to be honest. But for me it is clear that blaming the Israeli people is a big mistake. The jews outside Israel are also not related to Israeli's government attitudes either and they have no direct power to change it either.

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G-E
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee wrote:
G-E wrote:
I prefer to define Jews as those who self-identify as Jews,

The same mistake I was doing and you've complained. So, I really can't understand your point here. It seems that the definition of son/daughter of jewish mother or converted through a valid process isn't interesting for your pro-Palestine/Hitler objectives.

No there's a specific reason for this. If a son of a Jewess is abducted at birth and raised as a Tibetan monk, they will not have any of the ideological traits that Jewish culture instills into people who are brought up Jewish.

It is the study and acceptance of the Jewish culture that turns so many of them bad (or perhaps mad?) which is not likely the case for someone who doesn't see themselves as Jewish in the first place! There's no contradiction here, it is just me deferring to their own self-identifying as correct in the majority of cases. If you don't believe you are Jewish, you probably won't learn Hebrew or study the Talmud, and that's fine by me Smile

Banshee wrote:

Quote:
Talmud: In addition to the written scriptures we have an "Oral Torah," a tradition explaining what the above scriptures mean and how to interpret them and apply the Laws.


Don't you understand? In addition to the written scriptures... addition! Mark this word: addition! It's not replacement! It's not exclusion! It's addition. Learn how to read, damn it. It's a guide on how to interpret the Torah. It's not the Torah itself.

You're highlighting the wrong word, you should highlight "explaining what the above scriptures mean"...  because you need a Rabbi to explain the Torah, and the Talmud is a bunch of flattened old Rabbis.

Banshee wrote:
Get your facts straight: the objective is not achieve a so called truth. It is a tool to interpret the Torah. And how they interpret the Torah? If you simply use the notes of these rabbis without reasoning, you do not know how to read things. If you use the notes of these rabbis to clear up your confusion, then you are in the right way.

So, yea, Judaism is not a set of a clear instructions, although parts of the Talmud may have some of it, but these are the conclusions of the rabbi.

This is actually a much more critical point than you think. If the Torah is supposed to be the core of Judaism, the Talmud is supposed to explain the Torah, and the Talmud doesn't tell you what's correct, that means you can't draw any _rational_ conclusions from it.

Therefore a logical person (let's say Socrates) would have to conclude that it is not meant to explain anything! What it is meant to do is to justify that lack of consensus, and to teach ambiguity.

Banshee wrote:
It doesn't encourage absurd. It understands that people may have their own interpretation of the Torah and that the rabbis who wrote this Talmud are humans. As humans, they may have committed mistakes and they instigate the community to find these mistakes and discuss them.

Is it not absurd to answer a question with a question?

Banshee wrote:
As the text said: the primary sources are both the Torah and the Talmud. And they are respected, so the Torah is just as important as the Talmud. The last sentence indicates that the specific community that you linked and few others may priorize Shulchan Arukh, but that's a local matter and not the global judaism as a whole.

I was merely pointing out that you keep dismissing the Talmud and saying only the Torah matters, when that's not the case at all. The majority of higher study revolves around the Talmud, and some of the really ugly texts like the Zohar are not to be read by anyone under the age of 40, presumably because their brain is too fragile to handle that nonsense.

I mean do you judge someone's education on the basis of their grade 4 studies, or where they went to university? Of course you decide based on the higher education.

You have been so focused on opposing my points that you rarely stopped to think about it from the other side Smile

PS. The evolution question, what if there was some super predator that evolved, perfect hunter, long life, thousands of babies, and killed everything that moved on Earth, would that make it the "fittest" to survive or not?
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Deformat
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
j00s.


What you're writing is so racist, I can't even.

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G-E
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quiet, we're having an adult discussion. Children are meant to be something or something...
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



You cannot fool my jew sense, G-E. You were, in fact, trying to disprove the conspiracy theories all along, by making them seem ridiculous/made-up... I admit, clever use of reverse psychology, but it won't work on me! I can see right through your deceit (unlike these goyim, who've fallen right into your trap).
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

is this shit still going on?
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Banshee
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
Quiet, we're having an adult discussion. Children are meant to be something or something...


Do not underestimate him. When he says:

j00s

He is mimicking your unjustified blind hatred against jews and your irrational methods to keep being blind regardless of all evidences posted in this topic that breaks all your conspiracy theories.

If you think that his attitude was childish, you should look at yourself through the mirror.

Your hatred discourse, your discourse of intolerance against whoever it may be is always more childish than his objective and direct comment at your attitude.

My main objective in this topic is to solely make yourself aware of it and to notice how ridiculous this intolerance discourse is. And stop with it.











Torah and Talmud:

Let me requote here: http://www.jewfaq.org/torah.htm#Talmud

Quote:
The Talmud is not easy to read. It reminds me of someone else's class notes for a college lecture you never attended. There are often gaps in the reasoning where it is assumed that you already know what they are talking about, and concepts are often expressed in a sort of shorthand. Biblical verses that support a teaching are often referenced by only two or three words. The Talmud preserves a variety of views on every issue, and does not always clearly identify which view is the accepted one.


G-E, you seem to think that Talmud is some kind of updated constitution of Judaism. Or that it was meant to give answers. It is not. Part of it is just an organized set of opinions that should be used as a reference for consultation if the judaism follower or a rabbi does not understand the lessons that that Torah is trying to transmit. You don't need to rely on the rabbi for it. But he will certainly have more information on the Talmud and Torah than a regular judaism follower.

So, it's like you read a story from the Torah and think: what kind of lessons can I take from this story? Consult the Talmud for opinions where in the story you should focus more or what are the overall critical points of the story and the views of these rabbis on it. Then, you take your own conclusions. Yea, your own conclusions. The rabbis doesn't need to tell you what do you need to conclude or not. You are the one who should do that effort.

So, no, I'm not dismissing the Talmud anymore.




G-E wrote:
PS. The evolution question, what if there was some super predator that evolved, perfect hunter, long life, thousands of babies, and killed everything that moved on Earth, would that make it the "fittest" to survive or not?


Your description is missing many important factors that could be critical to evaluate if that specie is able to adapt to the numerous different environments that exists on Earth. The term "perfect" in perfect hunter is something that you cannot be part of any serious specification. Besides that, does it swim? How does it handle heat or cold? What is its size? What kind of food does it eat? Does it eat animals of its own specie?

Remember that every living being has several weak points and the presence of these weak points may determine how they will survive in these environments.

Also, bear in mind that if the environment does not have any resources that a population of a certain specie needs to survive, its population will decay in this environment.

If you take humans as example, you'll notice that humans does not survive inside vulcans, nor lives under water and their presence in the north and south pole is very limited.

A "perfect thing" such as the so called arian race idealized by Hitler does not exist in the reality.

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G-E
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee wrote:

j00s
He is mimicking your unjustified blind hatred against jews and your irrational methods to keep being blind regardless of all evidences posted in this topic that breaks all your conspiracy theories.

If you think that his attitude was childish, you should look at yourself through the mirror.

Your hatred discourse, your discourse of intolerance against whoever it may be is always more childish than his objective and direct comment at your attitude.

Except I have no emotional investment into any conclusion...

Do you know how to to tell if someone is a fool? You ask them if they are a fool, and they say no.

Banshee wrote:
My main objective in this topic is to solely make yourself aware of it and o notice how ridiculous this intolerance discourse is. And stop with it.

My story linked can link history and ideology rather nicely, it is the holocaust story that can't do that. My intolerance is to believing the unbelievable because you have an agenda or a predetermined conclusion to support.

I work off crazy notions or law, psychology, physics, etc, if your story can't stand up to the scientific method, then it's the story that is the problem isn't it? Or do you believe that we can't know anything with any precision? Because at that point, there's no need to argue about any of this.

Banshee wrote:
So, no, I'm not dismissing the Talmud anymore.

Ok so there's now 2 points of fact where I have changed your belief system. We're making progress. Stick around, and I'll help you change more #Tongue

Banshee wrote:
Your description is missing many important factors that could be critical to evaluate if that specie is able to adapt to the numerous different environments that exists on Earth. The term "perfect" in perfect hunter is something that you cannot be part of any serious specification. Besides that, does it swim? How does it handle heat or cold? What is its size? What kind of food does it eat? Does it eat animals of its own specie?

My evolution puzzle asked the question, if there was a perfect predator who was so good that it ate all the food, is it still the strongest or fittest to survive?

Because as I said, I subscribe to the theory of co-existence, the theory of non-supremacy you could call it. The same reason why no disease is 100% lethal, because it would never spread.
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Banshee
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
Do you know how to to tell if someone is a fool? You ask them if they are a fool, and they say no.


Are you a fool?


Ok, what a foolish question, don't you think?


G-E wrote:
Except I have no emotional investment into any conclusion...


You are fooling yourself here. Of course you have emotional investiment into any conclusion that must lead to your hatred against the situation on Palestine... and you stupidly blame the jews as a whole.


G-E wrote:
My story linked can link history and ideology rather nicely, it is the holocaust story that can't do that. My intolerance is to believing the unbelievable because you have an agenda or a predetermined conclusion to support.


Your story makes no sense at all and it is clearly ripped appart by all proofs of the holocaust. You've just been through this whole anti-holocaust thing because you are influenced by organizations that claim to be pro-palestine (they are actually anti-jews and not necessarily care about the muslims in Palestine) that, due to its anti-jewish hatred, feeds any theory that makes jews become monsters, which conveniently, the stupid theories from Hitler do. Thus, your story is intolerant to jews, regardless of what really happens in that region. Regardless if you know that the Israeli government is not necessarily supported by all the jews in the world and that it does not represent Judaism as religion at all. You haven't commented on my argument about the parliamentarianism system from Israel where the govern and its ministers are not directly chosen by its population. It was convenient for you to ignore it. How come you say you have no emotional investments to reach any conclusion? You are stupidly blind by your own emotions.


G-E wrote:
Ok so there's now 2 points of fact where I have changed your belief system. We're making progress.


You were not the one who has changed them. My research on this subject, based on references that I agreed that enlighten me about the importance of the Talmud, although I keep my theory that the Torah is more important. It is the context of the Talmudic text. You can't read the Talmud without the Torah. But you can take conclusions of the Torah without the Talmud, if you have some previous knowledge of the religion, even if this is not the ideal situation. But I am still humble enough to admit when I am mistaken about something, unlike you. You have to learn how to recognize your mistakes.


G-E wrote:
My evolution puzzle asked the question, if there was a perfect predator who was so good that it ate all the food, is it still the strongest or fittest to survive?

Because as I said, I subscribe to the theory of co-existence, the theory of non-supremacy you could call it. The same reason why no disease is 100% lethal, because it would never spread.


There is no supremacy in Darwin's theory. What it has is the ability of a certain population to adapt themselves to the environment they live. And you don't need to answer me if you are a fool or not. I know that you are Wink.

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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee wrote:
You are fooling yourself here. Of course you have emotional investiment into any conclusion that must lead to your hatred against the situation on Palestine... and you stupidly blame the jews as a whole.

So blaming something or someone for a tragedy is the same as hatred?

Banshee wrote:
Your story makes no sense at all and it is clearly ripped appart by all proofs of the holocaust.

*snip*

Thus, your story is intolerant to jews, regardless of what really happens in that region. Regardless if you know that the Israeli government is not necessarily supported by all the jews in the world and that it does not represent Judaism as religion at all.

Seriously, stop with the religion!

Banshee wrote:
You haven't commented on my argument about the parliamentarianism system from Israel where the govern and its ministers are not directly chosen by its population.

Are you saying the elections in England and America are actually representative of the people? Hahaha! The American constitution itself says in plain english that there are a few electors from every State that decides who wins, it mentions nothing about the will of the people

You can see Europe is on the verge of bursting at the seams because the elite class, the ruling class, the oligarch class is so thoroughly detached from the ruled people of Europe. This is the "democratic" myth of representation, give everyone a ballot and they feel like they matter. As many philosopher has pointed out, the system of dividing power amongst thousands of "elected" people makes the overthrow of the tyrannical govt more difficult. Thus a "democracy" can be more tyrannical than any monarch could ever be!

Banshee wrote:
You were not the one who has changed them. My research on this subject, based on references that I agreed ... blah blah blah

You only started believing my links when someone else said the same thing. This shows your prejudice more than anything. You have decided that I'm wrong on all counts, unless someone else agrees with me... it's OK though, I'm not offended, your walls are starting to crack Wink

You still refuse to apply proper logic to read between the lines, but it's a start. I think maybe the sticking point here is that you think everything the Jews say about themselves is as-they-actually-see-it, same with their ideologies, and not just propaganda for the rest of us. You should start thinking of what they say in english as a cultural defense mechanism, the less we know, the less likely we are to expel them again.

Now for your next lesson, you need to start researching the ideological roots of Communism, and the brutality of the Jewish ideologues, see video below.



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G-E
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee you should watch this too:



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FurryQueen
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Joined: 24 Jul 2010

PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



This is how I envision g-e.
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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
So blaming something or someone for a tragedy is the same as hatred?


Not necessarily, depending on the way this blaming attitude is executed. In your case, it is clearly hatred. Because you are not trying to understand the side you are blaming. You are just trying to blindly force what you consider to be truth. You are ignoring every argument that explains it and that shows that your argument has flaws. You do not recognize your mistakes under any circumstances. You think you are in a battle of who convinces the other of a so called truth. But this is not how a real argument should be done at all.

If you had intention to exchange ideas, you'd really listen to the other side and if you noticed that you are wrong, you would recognize your mistakes. I'm wasting my time here.


G-E wrote:
You only started believing my links when someone else said the same thing. This shows your prejudice more than anything. You have decided that I'm wrong on all counts, unless someone else agrees with me... it's OK though, I'm not offended, your walls are starting to crack


Nope. I've believed the content that explained what is a jew, because I've heard before in my life. Here's the content I'm talking about:

Quote:
Who is a Jew?

A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism.

It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do. A person born to non-Jewish parents who has not undergone the formal process of conversion but who believes everything that Orthodox Jews believe and observes every law and custom of Judaism is still a non-Jew, even in the eyes of the most liberal movements of Judaism, and a person born to a Jewish mother who is an atheist and never practices the Jewish religion is still a Jew, even in the eyes of the ultra-Orthodox.


That quote on its own has destroyed your argument of blaming the jews, first because you were conveniently considering jews as people who claimed to be jews, which is not the case. Therefore, the fact that someone is considered jew doesn't mean that this person will have any influence on what happens in Israel, nor will necessarily support Zionism, nor has any relationship with banks.

You know that this definition of jew breaks your stupid discourse and you will never assume your mistake.

By the way, I don't believe in the other craps you've referenced here at all for the reasons stated in the previous replies.


G-E wrote:
https://youtu.be/AsD8yCcCZ5Y


Even if Lehman Brothers had lent any money for the soviet revolution, they weren't the ones who executed it. Because through this ridiculous logic, you can simply blame all the banks of the world for all wars and all the people who used these banks at least once in their lives or paid their taxes for the Govern. In short: bloody ridiculous.


G-E wrote:
https://youtu.be/ZA-JCLYeDro


Who the hell is this idiot? How would I trust someone who I don't know and I have no idea of his objective. Even if he is jew, it doesn't mean anything. Hitler was also a jew and he did what he did. And I don't blame the jews for it, because it is ridiculous.




If you simply go with this mentality of imposing your truth regardless of the reality and you never recognize your mistakes, making your ideas fit the reality. I will never trust your idiocy. Don't waste your time.

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G-E
General


Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee wrote:
Not necessarily, depending on the way this blaming attitude is executed

So if I were to use more colourful and vague language, suddenly the conclusion would be different?
Banshee wrote:
In your case, it is clearly hatred. Because you are not trying to understand the side you are blaming. You are just trying to blindly force what you consider to be truth. You are ignoring every argument that explains it and that shows that your argument has flaws.

Nonsense, I've said several times to find me hard evidence, not some docu-drama produced by the Allied military after the war. I have scoured and scoured as best I could, and I have not yet found a smoking gun on official Nazi letterhead suggesting anyone was killed for being Jewish, or killed in gas chambers.
Banshee wrote:
That quote on its own has destroyed your argument of blaming the jews, first because you were conveniently considering jews as people who claimed to be jews, which is not the case.

This is nonsense too, I never said the Jews were a race, and you agree that they aren't, it is the Jews who believe they are a race bound by a maternal lineage. The Talmud (and Torah) is full of explanations about how Jewish men were forbidden to marry non-Jewish wives, but that if they had kids, the children would not be Jewish... the inverse argument is used if the husband is gentile.

This explanation is THEIR explanation, but for my purposes, a Jew is anyone who belongs to the Jewish culture, as opposed to the non-existant Jewish "race". The Jewish culture is the source of the Jewish ideological intellectual. Carl Marx was very much a Jewish intellectual, hie forefathers were all Rabbis, as such he was raised fully and completely in Jewish ideologies. Lenin had a Jewish grandmother (as I recall) making him 1/4 Jewish according to the Nazi calculations, which may dispute the Jewish calculation, but he grew up heavily influenced by Jewish culture too, including by his contemporaries like Marx and Hess.

Without the Jewish ideological base, and again this has nothing to do with the religion aspect, but rather their view of themselves, their view of the gentiles, their view of destiny or business or anything else, are what makes a person Jewish to me. Because frankly I couldn't care less what their dick looks like or who their mommy was, those things don't make you inherently different to you or me.
Banshee wrote:
Even if Lehman Brothers had lent any money for the soviet revolution, they weren't the ones who executed it. Because through this ridiculous logic, you can simply blame all the banks of the world for all wars and all the people who used these banks at least once in their lives or paid their taxes for the Govern. In short: bloody ridiculous.

It is your logic that is flawed. The people that loaned the money knew pretty well what that money was going to do, absolving them of their crime of complicity is logical folly, and ultimately destructive for the preservation of justice. If you knowingly give a gun to a known murder you know is going to go fight someone, you're just as guilty...

I once asked you: which crime is worse, killing 1 person, or robbing 50 million people of their entire life savings? Because no one should be able to hide behind paperwork for their crimes. There should have been thousands of bankers, traders, lawyers, accountants, and auditors jailed after the 2008 meltdown. And yet the only guy who got a prison term was a lackey in some fringe racket. This is the same folly of absolving Jewish culture which spawns and supports these socially destructive revolutionary forces and ideas.

You know the saying "a person is unpredictable, a crowd is very predicable"... there's a deeper relevance here. Communism almost destroyed the civilized cultures of Europe the way the Mongol invasions almost did. It is because there were enough counter forces, enough people who took a principled stand against it, that it didn't happen.

Hitler's offensive against the Russian army, the blitzkrieg was a fairweather sport, they steamrolled the Russians all the way up into Ukraine. Most of the Communist Jews they captured along the way were  not imprisoned in Poland, but deported further into Ukraine! To say that this was some blind rage against the Jews is idiotic, there were clear goals, even though the plans changed. There's a clear pattern to this push against the Communists.

Ignore what you've been told about Hitler being evil and the holocaust, and formulate a plausible reason why the German army would deport people from conquered territory, back into their remaining territory?

Banshee wrote:
If you simply go with this mentality of imposing your truth regardless of the reality and you never recognize your mistakes, making your ideas fit the reality. I will never trust your idiocy. Don't waste your time.

Again I'm not imposing anything, I'm just trying to make you see how much you don't know, so that at the least you will begin to question what you know when the pieces don't all fit. This is the way you learn things, you find consistencies and go exploring. If you find the pieces still don't fit, then your existing belief system is wrong. I know it's hard.

http://selfhelpfix.com/belief-systems.php
Quote:
From a very early age you have been conditioned to believe and accept certain thing, idea's and opinions. This starts in our very early childhood and continues throughout the rest of our lives.

Beliefs get passed on down through the generations some of them are good and helpful but some are out dated whilst others keep us small and stuck.  

We form our beliefs systems from the people around us, through our society conditioning and through our own experiences.

At a very early age we pick up most of our beliefs from our parents and families. This is great if you come from a happy, wealthy or successful family background but for the majority of people this is not always the case.

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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
So if I were to use more colourful and vague language, suddenly the conclusion would be different?


No. I was talking about this:

Banshee wrote:
You are just trying to blindly force what you consider to be truth. You are ignoring every argument that explains it and that shows that your argument has flaws.


Furthermore you do not recognize your mistakes nor try to understand the other point of views.


------------------------------------------------------------------------

G-E wrote:
I have scoured and scoured as best I could, and I have not yet found a smoking gun on official Nazi letterhead suggesting anyone was killed for being Jewish, or killed in gas chambers.


You don't know how to research nor does any effort on researching if your ideas are equivocated or not.

Read this (an ex-SS agent from Auschwitz admitting everything without being tortured):
http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/an-ss-officer-remembers-the-bookkeeper-from-auschwitz-a-355188.html

You'll notice by his expressions that he still believes in Hitler's cause.

G-E wrote:
This is nonsense too, I never said the Jews were a race, and you agree that they aren't, it is the Jews who believe they are a race bound by a maternal lineage.


You've completely missed my point here. You change the definition of jew when it is convenient for you. In this same reply you've used the maternial lineage (+ conversion, let's not forget it... since the conversion kills the race concept, which I am aware that you agree that it is not a race, but you eventually forget it when it interests you)

Quote:
Carl Marx was very much a Jewish intellectual, hie forefathers were all Rabbis, as such he was raised fully and completely in Jewish ideologies. Lenin had a Jewish grandmother (as I recall) making him 1/4 Jewish according to the Nazi calculations, which may dispute the Jewish calculation, but he grew up heavily influenced by Jewish culture too, including by his contemporaries like Marx and Hess.


Karl Marx was actually a jew because of his mother (she was jew):

* Oh! The Drama! *

, but he has never practiced the religion nor seemed to be influenced by it. In fact he hated it. Here's a quote from him about religions:

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1843/critique-hpr/intro.htm

Karl Marx wrote:
Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions


Do you really think he was influenced by Judaism or cared about it? Well.. he has married in a Protestant church, but I guess he just had to marry his wife somewhere.

So, when it is convenient for you, you say that he is jew because of his mother, but according to what you claim to be your definition of jew, Karl Marx and Lenin are not jews at all. Hypocrisy, isn't it?


G-E wrote:
It is your logic that is flawed.


Everything that goes against your wild paranoia nonsense is flawed. Guess what? No, it is not. You can loan some money in a bank, lie about its purpose and they will lend you if they feel it is worth doing it. Once the money leaves the bank, the bank may no longer track it and control its destination. Why do you blame the bank? Blame the user, damn it.



G-E wrote:
Ignore what you've been told about Hitler being evil and the holocaust, and formulate a plausible reason why the German army would deport people from conquered territory, back into their remaining territory?


To use them as slaves in their factories to work in constructions and build weaponry until the creature becomes useless and, once it happens, kill it with gas (using gas as a mean to help them hide the body later). The genocide and holocaust happened. Hitler was a lunatic full of worms in his brain. Get over it!


G-E wrote:
If you find the pieces still don't fit, then your existing belief system is wrong. I know it's hard.


Your theory doesn't fit. You have no solid evidences that it makes any sense. And you will never admit that because you think you can convince me to become a blind fool like you and think of you as a perfect person who knows all truths in the world and never commit mistakes. And guess what? That will never happen, because you are a human and commit mistakes and you are too much a fool to think that you can deceive anyone here without admitting that you have a completely flawed idea in your mind. Wake up! I won't change my beliefs blindly. I was sufficiently educated in my life to not do that. And I know that you don't know how to research things properly and you deliberately interpret your sources in a way to force your existing convictions. So, if you don't listen to anyone, why would I listen to you? If you wanna change my beliefs like that, I assure you that, if it is your objective, you are wasting a lot of time with me. That won't change me.

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G-E
General


Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee wrote:
Hitler was a lunatic full of worms in his brain. Get over it!

I have listened to speeches from every single "evil dictator" as we were taught in school, media, and western documentaries. Every single one of them sounded quite rational, especially when explaining their motivation for doing things.

This is in sharp contrast to the mindless doublespeak and wishywashy language coming from Washington, Paris, London, and now Berlin. They are full of contradictions, one day the rise of a fascist movement in Latin America is great, or the Neo-Nazi takeover of Ukraine is splendid, but we are supposed to run for our lives that Marie Le Pen might get elected in France! Or the even more hypocritical demonization of Corbyn for being a socialist AND anti-neo-liberalist.

Seriously, you like to repeat how you do your own research, can you not see that every single western leader in power today is a lying sack of shit supporting destructive and unpopular agendas? Can you not also see that all the "demons" like Putin are fighting the good fight?

When will you learn that Saudi headchoppers are not better than ISIS headchoppers? Or something more personal, how the charismatic Lula is being smeared while the beneficiary of the coup is a CIA asset?

You have to accept at some point that everything you've been told is deliberately wrong.
Banshee wrote:
Furthermore you do not recognize your mistakes nor try to understand the other point of views.

If that was the case, why would I have bothered researching things like the Talmud or Mongol invasions? Wouldn't it be easier just to make shit up and call it a day?

Banshee wrote:
G-E wrote:
I have scoured and scoured as best I could, and I have not yet found a smoking gun on official Nazi letterhead suggesting anyone was killed for being Jewish, or killed in gas chambers.

You don't know how to research nor does any effort on researching if your ideas are equivocated or not.

Read this (an ex-SS agent from Auschwitz admitting everything without being tortured):
http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/an-ss-officer-remembers-the-bookkeeper-from-auschwitz-a-355188.html

Can _you_ not read when I said "documents" ?

I heard several people in interviews say they "knew what was going on" without seeing it, just like Jews in Hungary all "knew" about the gas chambers. Ask yourself a question, how did everyone seemed to know about these gas chambers if the only people who saw them died? Because clearly if you got showered, you can't honestly still insist it was still a gas chamber can you?
Banshee wrote:
You'll notice by his expressions that he still believes in Hitler's cause.

There are people who firmly believe they have seen tall gray aliens from another galaxy, and have even passed lie detectors. Show me 30 more like him and I'll consider it.
Banshee wrote:
You've completely missed my point here. You change the definition of jew when it is convenient for you. In this same reply you've used the maternial lineage (+ conversion, let's not forget it... since the conversion kills the race concept, which I am aware that you agree that it is not a race, but you eventually forget it when it interests you)

Sorry if I don't adequately repeat the only semi-relevant or semi-topical points enough. What can I say, my efficiency of language is a problem.

But if you think my definition of what a Jew is, ie. someone raised as a Jew or within the Jewish culture, is wrong... then please tell me if you believe Marx would have had the same ideologies had be been born into a Creole household?
Banshee wrote:
Karl Marx was actually a jew because of his mother (she was jew):
Karl Marx wrote:
Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions

So Marx did some non-Jewish things, if I buy a bagel does that mean I support the Torah? Does it make me a Christian to celebrate Christmas?
Banshee wrote:
Do you really think he was influenced by Judaism

Stop here, and yes. The rest is irrelevant. Belief systems go far beyond religions, they encompass morality, fairness, ideals, and other fuzzy notions. There is definitely a cultural influence, and MANY MANY MANY JEWS will agree with this point.  
Banshee wrote:
So, when it is convenient for you, you say that he is jew because of his mother, but according to what you claim to be your definition of jew, Karl Marx and Lenin are not jews at all. Hypocrisy, isn't it?

A Jew to me is a product of the Jewish culture. I call the non-Jews that worship them or follow their ideologies sycophants, because that's the appropriate word, or sometimes acolytes.

If a Jewish man rejects his Jewish culture and decides to be a spiritualist who believes in some newage mysticism based on triangles, well super, I don't call them a Jew anymore. Where's the hypocrisy?
Banshee wrote:
To use them as slaves in their factories to work in constructions and build weaponry until the creature becomes useless and, once it happens, kill it with gas (using gas as a mean to help them hide the body later). The genocide and holocaust happened.

No they deported the Slavs and Commies EASTWARD into Ukraine, into the territory still ruled by the Soviet Union. In other words, they gave them back.
Banshee wrote:
Your theory doesn't fit. You have no solid evidences that it makes any sense. And you will never admit that because you think you can convince me to become a blind fool like you and think of you as a perfect person who knows all truths in the world and never commit mistakes.

Only a fool thinks they know everything for sure. I ask questions, many questions, I use facts only to create more questions. Philosophy is about refining the question, because until you do that, you can never hope to find the right answer to anything.

You're right, I will state it very clearly: I HAVE ZERO EVIDENCE THAT A HOLOCAUST DIDN'T HAPPEN.

However, by logic and by law, it is not up to me to prove something didn't happen, the burden of proof is on the positive, not the negative. You might as well ask me to prove time doesn't exist, or that god doesn't exist. Say what you want, but it is not dogmatic to question something, it is dogmatic to believe something.

It is probably a lot easier for you to believe the holocaust story, because like SM and some others here, you believe in a god. You believe in something where proof doesn't matter in the slightest, and here you are telling me I'm the looney for believing what I do "without evidence", how does your head not explode from this?
Banshee wrote:
I won't change my beliefs blindly.

Evidently you resist with every breath from changing your beliefs... and I would be the first to chastise you if you were so gullible.

How many times did I introduce a topic and tell you to go research it? I lost track. I told you repeatedly where to look because I can't force you to believe anything by telling you, you have to discover it... I just wish you were more open to that process.
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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-E wrote:
I have listened to speeches from every single "evil dictator" as we were taught in school, media, and western documentaries. Every single one of them sounded quite rational, especially when explaining their motivation for doing things.


Sure they are rational, but they are based in the equivocated ideas. That certainly includes Hitler.

G-E wrote:
They are full of contradictions, one day the rise of a fascist movement in Latin America is great, or the Neo-Nazi takeover of Ukraine is splendid, but we are supposed to run for our lives that Marie Le Pen might get elected in France! Or the even more hypocritical demonization of Corbyn for being being neo-liberalist.


They have their opinion. I have mine. And so what? You fail to understand that I don't blindly things.

G-E wrote:
can you not see that every single western leader in power today is a lying sack of shit supporting destructive and unpopular agendas?


Western? Only western? Many of them everywhere in the world. I don't trust politicians.

G-E wrote:
Or something more personal, how the charismatic Lula is being smeared while the beneficiary of the coup is a CIA asset?


Charismatic Lula? Really? It's a chief of a criminal organization called Partido dos Trabalhadores (PT), you may know it as the Worker's Party. I want him to be arrested.

Some stupid people accuse Michel Temer, aka Count Dracula (the current President of Brazil), of being a CIA asset because he has spoken to CIA and US embassy on some occasions, as well as other embassies and secret agencies because politicians may do that occasionally. But he definitely has his own agenda. He wants to suck the money from the govern for his party as well and I hope he gets arrested too. The fact that someone has exchanged ideas with CIA or eventually cooperated with CIA doesn't make them eternal CIA agents. Learn it, for once and for all.

G-E wrote:
If that was the case, why would I have bothered researching things like the Talmud or Mongol invasions? Wouldn't it be easier just to make shit up and call it a day?


Please, elaborate, because you haven't mentioned what your mistake was, that made you research these topics. And you've never mentioned your mistakes in this topic. You always come up with an excuse.


G-E wrote:
Can _you_ not read when I said "documents" ?


I haven't given enough attention to the letterhead word, but Sir Modsalot has posted documents proving it and you disregarded them because it wasn't interesting for your foolish unproven paranoia wild theory of doom.

G-E wrote:
please tell me if you believe Marx would have had the same ideologies had be been born into a Creole household?


Creole, in the place he lived? You serious? Ok, let's change it a bit: he would have the same ideologies if he had been born into a Protestant household. Oh wait! He did! His father has changed his religion to protestant (he was forced to do that). Wow! But guess what? Marx hated religions! So, it doesn't matter if his father was protestant and his grandpas and mother were jew, because it doesn't make a shitty difference. He hated religions. All of them.

G-E wrote:
Stop here, and yes. The rest is irrelevant. Belief systems go far beyond religions, they encompass morality, fairness, ideals, and other fuzzy notions. There is definitely a cultural influence, and MANY MANY MANY JEWS will agree with this point.


Have you interviewed these jews? No. So, don't put words in their mouth. You are creating shit out of your brain.


G-E wrote:

A Jew to me is a product of the Jewish culture. I call the non-Jews that worship them or follow their ideologies sycophants, because that's the appropriate word, or sometimes acolytes.

If a Jewish man rejects his Jewish culture and decides to be a spiritualist who believes in some newage mysticism based on triangles, well super, I don't call them a Jew anymore. Where's the hypocrisy?


The hypocrisy is that you are still calling him a jew, because it interests you to associate judaism with marxism, even if both things have nothing to do with each other.


G-E wrote:
Only a fool thinks they know everything for sure. I ask questions, many questions, I use facts only to create more questions. Philosophy is about refining the question, because until you do that, you can never hope to find the right answer to anything.


I'm glad that you recognize that only a fool thinks that they know everything for sure. Yet, you try to "enlight" people with a "truth" where you admit that you zero evidence of it and you cannot accept that it has mistakes nor "enlight" the others with its mistakes. Only fools will be "enlighted" by you, messiah. Sorry, but I am not this kind of fool.


G-E wrote:
You're right, I will state it very clearly: I HAVE ZERO EVIDENCE THAT A HOLOCAUST DIDN'T HAPPEN.


I just have to quote this one for fun.

G-E wrote:
It is probably a lot easier for you to believe the holocaust story, because like SM and some others here, you believe in a god. You believe in something where proof doesn't matter in the slightest, and here you are telling me I'm the looney for believing what I do "without evidence", how does your head not explode from this?


You are taking equivocated conclusions about something you don't know about. In this whole topic you believed that I am a christian. Perhaps, the fact that I am brazilian made you infer that idea. But no, I'm not christian at all. I do believe in God, but that only happens because I define God as the Universe. So, I see the Universe, I live in the Universe. So, yes, I believe in something that I see. I've already posted about it in other topics from this forum. Do not underestimate me.




G-E wrote:
How many times did I introduce a topic and tell you to go research it? I lost track. I told you repeatedly where to look because I can't force you to believe anything by telling you, you have to discover it...


And I look for them in different sources because I do not trust your research methods and sources. I usually analyse how flawed your sources are.

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G-E
General


Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SM didn't provide any documentation, he referenced blueprints that I also showed referencing "gas kammer" rooms for de-lousing. That's it, the rest of it was all he said/she said.

Ok so I will admit I was wrong to assume you believe in god, I tested you on this point by implying it, and you never denied it until now. Still, it was only an assumption. See I have no problem being wrong.

So now that you're happy I admit I can't prove a negative, why don't we talk about the evidentiary process:
- I can prove that Nazi documentation is consistent with labour camps, and inconsistent with death camps
- I can prove there was spoliation of evidence for the purposes of supporting the death camp theory
- I can prove that virtually the entire Nazi leadership testimony at the Nuremburg trials, is consistent with labour camps, and inconsistent with death camps
- I can prove that some of the primary confessions used as proof of death camps, were extracted by torture (ie. Hoss)
- I can prove that many confessions cannot be verified, as the confessors were suicided before cross-examination while in custody (like Sandra Bland)
- I can prove that the chemical analyses done on Auchwitz, is consistent with labour camps, and inconsistent with death camps
- I can reasonably prove that Hitler's speeches expressed ideas very similar to Churchill's, and many of his orders are consistent with a desire to expel Jews and Communists, and is inconsistent with wanting to kill them
- I can also prove that Communism was a serious menace to Europe during the 30's and 40's, which at least casts doubt as to who the aggressor actually was when Hitler declared war on the Soviet Union
- I can prove Hitler's speeches are very rational, and his voice wasn't high pitched and frantic sounding, unlike what you see/hear in most documentaries
- I can prove Hitler helped the Zionists build Israel
- I can prove Nazi Germany had thriving economic trade with Jewish Palestine
- I can prove most of Europe preferred the Third Reich to Communism
- I can prove that a number of famous "holocaust survivors" were never even near any Polish camps

I can actually prove quite a lot, but I still can't prove a negative. How about you, can you prove a negative? Are you that good?
Banshee wrote:
And I look for them in different sources because I do not trust your research methods and sources. I usually analyse how flawed your sources are.

Don't forget you tried to use generic blogs as proof against my argument... like seriously, noname brand blogs? Where are your standards?
_________________
http://www.moddb.com/mods/scorched-earth-ra2-mod-with-smart-ai
Administrative Warning: Administrative Warning: Political Conspirator Detected!The political opinions expressed by this user in this forum are blindly hostile against Israel and whatever he considers to be Zionism or Zionists. Samples of such behavior can be seen here, here and here. His tactics consists on desconstructing what he considers to be the 'official story' blaming "Zionist" media for "lies", but he never has the intention to prove his claims. He tries to use psychological rethorics to provoke others to prove it in his place and only seem to accept "proofs" (a.k.a. factoids) that seems to fit his shaped opinion about the subject. A proper explanation on his tactics with samples can be seen here and here.


This kind of behavior is not welcomed in this community at all, neither are any kind of hate speech against any group of people. Such attitude is considered trolling. This warning notice is restricted to the Political and Economical Discussion Forum and maybe it will be removed once administrators consider that the attitude of the user has changed.

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Banshee
Supreme Banshee


Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banshee wrote:
I do believe in God


G-E wrote:
Ok so I will admit I was wrong to assume you believe in god, I tested you on this point by implying it, and you never denied it until now. Still, it was only an assumption. See I have no problem being wrong.


Incredible reading skills...but... NOT.


G-E wrote:
So now that you're happy I admit I can't prove a negative, why don't we talk about the evidentiary process:


Weird, because you had this whole topic to prove these things you said you could prove. And you didn't. All your sources were flawed and Sir Modsalot and I've clearly explained why.

So, no, you can't prove much of what you said, although there are some exceptions such as Hitler helping the Zionists to build Israel. Although his 'help' was a convenient way to expel jews from Germany and... the trauma of the genocide that he has caused, it has certainly boosted public opinion from allied countries to become pro-Zionism. I'll discuss the other points later.

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