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Fix For Medic/Repair Vehicle
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Templarfreak
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Joined: 10 Jun 2015

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:02 pm    Post subject:   Fix For Medic/Repair Vehicle Reply with quote

In Tiberian Sun these units are suppose to use GuardRange to act as a longer scan radius for finding targets to heal, as far as I can tell. However, it clearly does not work and they still only scan for targets within their weapon range. In RA2, there are a couple options to fix this bug on similar units. Either HealScanRange or using a weapon with NeverUse=yes on it, making it have a longer range, and making it the secondary. Are there any alternatives to these in Tiberian Sun?

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Select the medic and press g for area guard (or click on the medic again). Voila, it runs to the damaged infantry and heals them.
Works exactly as it should imo.

When i place a medic on a certain cell, i would hate it if he runs on his own without any Area Guard command around and heals other infantry. It would be impossible to keep such support units in the second row during an attack.
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Templarfreak
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Joined: 10 Jun 2015

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
Select the medic and press g for area guard (or click on the medic again). Voila, it runs to the damaged infantry and heals them.
Works exactly as it should imo.

When i place a medic on a certain cell, i would hate it if he runs on his own without any Area Guard command around and heals other infantry. It would be impossible to keep such support units in the second row during an attack.


It sounds like that would be a problem in theory, but in actual practice this rarely ever is a problem with units that automatically move to heal targets. Brood War is a prime example of this logic. It functions practically the same as it does in TS, except Autocast on the Medic's heal ability is just on by default and this almost never occurs (The only other different being Brood War's pathfinding respecting the size and position of units. Units could not just walk through other units like they can in TS but this wouldn't change much for medics in BW if this were the case). Medics in BW do not return to their position after healing a target automatically just as Medics in TS do (I think, I'd have to test this to be sure but I am confident enough), but when you are playing an active bio (Infantry) style this will hardly be a problem and only goes to dramatically increase the control required in order to actually perform the style. (Part of the problem why GDI infantry styles hardly stand a chance even against equal tier and cost vehicle spam, let alone significantly less cost invested such as with Artillery)

Your medics are such small targets to begin with that it shouldn't be a problem of them being sniped by running in front either. Medics not healing your units unless explicitly told to do so makes them practically worthless, IMO. Tons of infantry will die just because you can't issue heal commands fast enough or happened to already have a guard command executed and if you're just going to use guard command anyway on medics you're going to leave standing around instead of actively controlling then there's no reason for guard mode to not be on by default as that would not affect medics you are actively controlling and medics you're going to just leave standing around would otherwise not heal at all.

Finally, Medics can simply be a bit tankier (They already autoheal, I don't see why they'd need to have even more health) if it ever does actually become a problem and they end up getting caught in fire that they otherwise would not have if they held position (Which is ironically a command that would be very useful in TS yet it doesn't have and is a command that is very niche in StarCraft but exists). However that is more of a balancing act.

There is some merit to not having a healing unit automatically heal from a design/balance perspective and since there doesn't seem to be any alternatives I'll just have to roll with it.

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i fail to see the problem ?Confused
-place the medic on a cell, it doesn't move stupidly around (and into the enemy army) healing automatically all nearby infantry
-give it a guard command and it moves around healing all infantry in a wide area
-set him on "guard unit" mode and he will follow that unit and heal all around them as well (so you actually never have to touch the medic anymore and just make sure he has a unit to follow)

Set medics into a certain unit group (keys 0-9) and you also have very fast access to them if you really want to give the medics a certain command like area guard.

All this provides excellent control diversity, with something for every players need.
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Templarfreak
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Joined: 10 Jun 2015

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1 is very, very unlikely to ever happen (or at least very unlikely to happen regularly). Especially considering TS units by default don't chase enemies and thus a Medic wouldn't go after an infantry that's going after some enemy unit.

With 2 it will not heal anything what-so-ever unless given this order or they are right next to or in the same cell as any potential targets. This is especially bad for the Repair Vehicle, which could end up not repairing things that are nearly directly infront of them. Repair Vehicles would more than likely be supporting Tick Tanks and Artillery anyway so it would never move anywhere but having 1 repair vehicle for nearly every single Arty and Tick Tank, and putting them in a neat line, just because the Repair Tank stupidly won't repair some vehicle that's only 2 cells away, is very cumbersome and will potentially cause units to be lost for stupid reasons.

3 is just an extra-cumbersome solution. If I accidentally drag-select the Medic at all (Because they happen to be in the same general area as units I was going to issue an order to) it will lose that guard unit order and I will have to do it again, or even worse I scramble to deselect the Medic before issuing the order losing precious time, potentially ending up losing lots of infantry in the process because I didn't realize my Medic was no longer on a Guard Unit order and I have pretty much no way of knowing. (Same problem with Guard Area)

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^Rampastein
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Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Location: Gensokyo

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Templarfreak wrote:
With 2 it will not heal anything what-so-ever unless given this order or they are right next to or in the same cell as any potential targets.

I haven't played vanilla TS in a very long time, but at least in DTA medics work just fine when put into Area Guard mode (by pressing G on them). They'll automatically go after and heal any infantry that's damaged and within a few cells of their position.
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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tested it in TI before writing the last post and area guard worked.
The latest TS Client most likely behaves the same and since this is defacto the latest official TS (not the bugged vanilla TS), medics work fine as they should.

Templarfreak wrote:
1 is very, very unlikely to ever happen (or at least very unlikely to happen regularly). Especially considering TS units by default don't chase enemies and thus a Medic wouldn't go after an infantry that's going after some enemy unit.

actually they did hunt stupidly for years, until last year this horrible suicide hunt down bug was fixed.
For infantry it was a bit different, as they kept standing still yet never unselected the target when out of range, thus ignoring any close by targets.

Templarfreak wrote:
With 2 it will not heal anything what-so-ever unless given this order or they are right next to or in the same cell as any potential targets. This is especially bad for the Repair Vehicle, which could end up not repairing things that are nearly directly infront of them. Repair Vehicles would more than likely be supporting Tick Tanks and Artillery anyway so it would never move anywhere but having 1 repair vehicle for nearly every single Arty and Tick Tank, and putting them in a neat line, just because the Repair Tank stupidly won't repair some vehicle that's only 2 cells away, is very cumbersome and will potentially cause units to be lost for stupid reasons.

Do you want to play the game or should the game play on its own?

Micromanagement is the key.
I never use more than 4 or 5 repair vehicles even for big armies of 30 and more attack units.
The repair vehicles are always in second line (i don't want them to stupidly move around and close to the enemy) and when i see a damaged unit i send that unit back to the repair vehicles.

If pressing a simple g is too much work for you, then you should switch to other games, where you can just watch units doing things on their own without any user input. Though watching a movie is probably more interesting then.

I would hate if units do things on their own without being given an explicit order before, just like a constant unstoppable area guard which would be the same as the horrible hunt down bug in the past.

Templarfreak wrote:
3 is just an extra-cumbersome solution. If I accidentally drag-select the Medic at all (Because they happen to be in the same general area as units I was going to issue an order to) it will lose that guard unit order and I will have to do it again, or even worse I scramble to deselect the Medic before issuing the order losing precious time, potentially ending up losing lots of infantry in the process because I didn't realize my Medic was no longer on a Guard Unit order and I have pretty much no way of knowing. (Same problem with Guard Area)

Then learn to control your units with something better than brute drag select.
Use keyboard shortcuts like
-unit groups
-t for type select

You can't play well if you don't even discern your attack force into front line armor and second line artillery, for which you need unit groups.
If medics are so important for you, then put them in a specific group.
I put all my repair vehicles (i never use medics) in group 5.
I always have
1: tanks and anti infantry
2: artillery
3: anti air
5: repair vehicles
6: aircraft attack wing 1
7: aircraft attack wing 2
8: aircraft attack wing 3
0: harvester (in rare cases)
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Templarfreak
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Joined: 10 Jun 2015

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At some point there is only so much a person can do. You should not be expected to do absolutely everything manually. Should Harvesters not harvest by themselves and you be forced to manually order them to harvest every single bail, then return to the Refinery? Should there be no rally points at all? Or Waypoints? Should nothing automatically attack at all (In some cases units don't already, but only for units with short ranges)? Should there be no control groups? Should Artillery just stupidly move into a target you click on instead of automatically deploying to fire at them? No, all of that would be frankly awful game design.

Some things should be manual and this is where players should be expected to make mistakes. That is how you make an RTS diverse and interesting. If there are no mistakes that your opponent can capitalize on then you'll just have draw games every single time. But with Medics, you are not making a mistake. You logically assume it should be healing your infantry, but they don't unless given Guard Area/Guard Unit orders and there is absolutely no way to tell what-so-ever if they actually are in a guard area order and this would be especially bad for first-time players who likely don't even know Guard Area orders exists.

^Rampastein wrote:
Templarfreak wrote:
With 2 it will not heal anything what-so-ever unless given this order or they are right next to or in the same cell as any potential targets.

I haven't played vanilla TS in a very long time, but at least in DTA medics work just fine when put into Area Guard mode (by pressing G on them). They'll automatically go after and heal any infantry that's damaged and within a few cells of their position.


Yes, they do this. But only when given Guard Area/Guard Unit orders. Otherwise they just stand there like an idiot not healing units that are only 3 cells away from them because the range of their heal weapon is like >2.

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are nitpicking on highest level.
-they heal when standing still, but just in their weapon range (which is correct and absolutely fine that way)
-they automatically run to damaged units when given area guard command

If pressing a simple g is too much work for you, then give them Range=10 on their weapon.
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Templarfreak
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Joined: 10 Jun 2015

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spoiler (click here to read it):
How in the world is this nitpicky? I am using basic logic here. A medic should heal units that are right in front of their face. Again, you use the argument of "if the games too hard don't play it" which has absolutely 0 weight. While it does increase difficulty it increases it in a very cheap, unfair, and unfun way by causing you to lose various units because you forgot to press the hotkey for Guard Area which is a very, very easy mistake to make even for highly experienced players.

You are being punished for a mistake you aren't making. It is logical to assume that a Medic would be healing your units as they are hurt, otherwise you would end up losing units and then being at a disadvantage because not only did you lose units but you also spent money on a unit that didn't keep them alive making them dead-weight.

What you're arguing is basically one of the many bad ideas that killed StarCraft II. That everything should be micromanaged and everything should immediately cause the player to fail if they make a single mistake in this micromanagement.


Here are the concise points:

1. Medics don't heal units unless given Guard Area order. Their short range makes them effectively never heal at all what-so-ever. Okay, that's fine. Annoying, but manageable, on paper.

1a. It's very, very easy to forget to do this given all the other things you have to manage. Power, Ore Storage, macro, dealing with harassment, performing harassment yourself, microing, and many engagements all over the map. These are the things a player should have to focus on, not making sure their medics are doing their job.

2. It's very easy to mis-micro your medics and give them a new order that then makes them no longer be in a Guard Area order and thus no longer heal. That's unbelievably frustrating.

3. There is no visual indicator for this what-so-ever. You will never even know if you managed to mis-micro your medics until you've already lost an entire infantry force because they weren't being healed or you're extremely paranoid and constantly give them a Guard Area order, wasting your time and potentially getting very behind because you're not doing the things you should be doing.

4. Managing them via a control group takes up an important control group that is probably better to use for various other purposes. (Different groups for harassment forces, different attack forces, different units in your main army, harvesters, and much more, all of which could easily take 2 to 4 control groups a piece depending on what you're wanting to do and what your needs become).

Why is this so hard to understand? I mean, at this point I don't even totally care. I'll deal with it or wait for ORA TS Mod to make the small amount of changes I'm wanting. It's just that these points are totally valid (or are just fact) and not really disputed by anything you're saying.

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you complained medics don't work correct, i've told you multiple times that they work fine and also how to use them right. yet you keep complaining about a tiny aspect that isn't working the way you want it, while that one would ruin it for many other players. (units moving around on their own without any given order to do so and completely unable to ever hold their position is crap. It's impossible to control them then)

A medic is healing units right in front of their face. Accept that already.
A gap of 1 or more cells between the medic and target is not in front of their face.
A 3x3 area of cells in which they heal even when standing still is absolutely fine.

Templarfreak wrote:
You are being punished for a mistake you aren't making. It is logical to assume that a Medic would be healing your units as they are hurt

You are not punished for making a mistake. You are rewarded for using the damn hotkeys and special functions right.
And they do heal your units. Accept that already and stop complaining that they don't heal at all.

1. wrong, they heal also when standing still and a 3x3 area is big enough (that are max 26 infantry if all cells are occupied). So stop saying they never heal.
Area guard only raises the range, with the additional risk of them running by accident close to or into the enemy (why this is no default setting and it's good that it's no default setting).

2. that's your problem i guess.
Power: who the hell cares about that? are you constantly checking your power meter or what? Base defenses are useless (artillery kills them way too easy) and production works fine even when low on power. Late game when using SW, you place 2 more PP as needed and can forget power once and for all
Ore Storage: can be ignored too. If you are not a boring turtle player, your production is constantly running and the 10+ refineries giving you more than enough storage.

micro/macro management: that's the playing part. if that is too much for, you should switch to round based strategy games or switch to slowest game Speed with 10 FPS.



Though i did some further tests and i was wrong as Range=10 wouldn't work. There seems to be a hardcoded setting for them to scan only the directly adjacent cells when standing still.
They are not using the max possible weapon range when standing still.
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Templarfreak
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Joined: 10 Jun 2015

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0JFbsJyT3I

I was exaggerating. Of course they heal something they're right next to, but that's it. Video evidence, right there. The range here is even increased from vanilla, which iirc was 2.83 while this is 4. (But according to you there seems to be a bug there, so that isn't totally relevant anymore)

2. Uh, no, it's anybody's problem who would make this mistake. Which would be a lot of people. Because it's such an easy detail to miss. Because anyone would logically assume your medics would be healing regardless. If Medics worked like this in StarCraft, there would never be Bio in TvZ. Nobody would play it. Because they'd never have the time to constantly be resetting the autocasting of medics so that they'll heal their Marines. (I keep drawing comparison to StarCraft because its the only other RTS I have spent a lot of time researching it's design in detail. Fundamentally these are different but basic concepts, such as Medics, resource harvesting, micro, and certain other unit designs, such as Artillery, basic units, MBTs, Power Multipliers, etc, are interchangeable and work practically no matter what game you put them in)

In a perfect C&C game, extra production will always mean you will be building faster. Thus extra production, if you can afford it, should always be built. This would mean you should always need more power. And that means that harassing infrastructure is a viable strategy, to slow down your opponent's production and then ultimately out-produce them because of it. And that, once again, means that proper base planning and defenses would absolutely be worth using, such as walls and gates. The main reason GDI defenses are useless is because of the way the component tower works, which is why several mods change it to where they just build the entire tower instead of two separate parts. Although ore storage is not something you will indefinitely need, you will still need some to a degree if you don't want to end up wasting resources on the map. If you don't have a perfect build order, you will inevitably either come to a point where you have not enough income to support yourself or you have too much, that you can't use, and are thus wasting resources and thus throwing down a couple Silos will always be a good idea. Although you are right, Low Power in Tiberian Sun has virtually no meaning. I would be changing that in my mod, as well, to something more like C&C3 values (Up to 100% increase in build time. This is a personal little mod so don't worry you'll never have to suffer the indecency of it =p)

C&C Macro is also unbelievably easy in the earlier games (A little bit harder in C&C3/KW as you have to cycle through each Barracks or whatever in order for all of your production to be working properly). You don't even need control groups for your production structures, they give you free access to them at all times on the sidebar. The only thing that makes TS Macro hard is that you can only queue up 5 units at a time (Which if I ever change it will only go up to 10, and no higher, the low queue limit is very important for keeping macro meaningful).

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