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Dune lore in C&C S (Help wanted)
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TAK02
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Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: It was Damascus.

PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:09 pm    Post subject:  Dune lore in C&C S (Help wanted)
Subject description: Part of C&C S will play on Dune. We're hiring walking Dune books.
Reply with quote

"Part of C&C S will focus on the vastness of Dune lore.

We kindly request everyone who knows Dune or knows someone who knows Dune like the back of his or her hand to contact supremeccmod@gmail.com immediately.

Thank you."

EDIT: If you can provide an answer to the following, then you're hired. Please send a mail to supremeccmod@gmail.com immediately. Thank you.

---

Quote:
Particularly the "sights" and ruins on Arrakis, as well as the Fremens past and how different tribes behave/act around one another. So knowing the David Lynch movie by heart won't help.


Quote:
What warented the Ixians to build Elric/Edric O (a thinking machine/AI that are banned), and why does he sound so similar to CABAL?


Quote:
Kane being the mastermind behind the Harkonnen's position on Dune switching with the Atreides', and then the Bene Gesserit's failed plan to control the Atreides and/or their Kwisatz Hadarach?
[...]
that Voice must've come from somewhere. Maybe Yuri and Kane's psycho experiments?
Apparently, Yuri was meant to be revealed as part of Nod's own research into psionics.
(before being thrown back in time to RA2)


Nolt wrote:
dune has way more spies than soldiers
BG has the sisters that are everywhere.
Tleilaxu has the face dancers
then the ix hve some fancy stuff i cannot even recall
probes and other techno asdf
the harkonnen died after the first book, and the ordos are not canon


Quote:
Prince Rombur Vernius, iirc, became a cyborg after his clipper catastrophe in the beginning of 'House Corrino' story.
Who is he? What relevance does he have in the Dune plot?

Quote:
wasn't there also an abandoned fortress of Fremen rebels or something from long before "Dune"?
I think that's same one where Leto 2 becomes the "God Emperor".
What's the story of that fort?
I have only learned of its name: Jacurutu.
Quote:
Where outcast Fremen were sent. What's the story behind it? Would it be plausible to have it be a hide-out/cover for a big project of sorts?


Quote:
I wanted to know more about it and what/how you're outcast as Fremen.
What I'm specifically interested in is whether or not the outcast would allow anyone near their place, and if said place can also be used to build something huge, not akin to that Emperor Worm from E.BfD. That thing's waaay to big to fit anywhere.
Speaking of outcast: would they ever do deals with anyone from off Arrakis to over-throw/take-down the regular Fremen we all know from Dune books and games?


Quote:
C&C S will attempt to answer Dune questions with C&C lore (Kane/Yuri are behind the Bene Gesserit's Voice, the Guild coming together the way they did is part of Kane's grand plan (but maybe not the "God Emperor"))
^Just a suggestion/idea. Might end getting scrapped provided there is proof this won't work. Proof includes what-ifs
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Last edited by TAK02 on Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:55 am; edited 2 times in total

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G-E
General


Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why lore? What good is the lore without the terrain?

With YR you'd have enough theaters to pull off the main planets of the main houses, but that would be immense work, even the desert theater would need extensive rework.
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TAK02
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Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: It was Damascus.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mustapha gave me a link to some good Dune terrain that OmegaBolt made, but didn't finish.
You'd know that if you had joined us on Discord.

MustaphaTR wrote:
There is already a dune2k tileset somewhere on PPM by Omega Bolt (i think) if you haven't know already. Tho sand to rock smooth transitions are wrongly converted.
http://ppmforums.com/viewtopic.php?highlight=dune+terrain&t=38866&sid=9aeb0613ad43c77e94f2ff281f16185e

Nolt wrote:
that terrain looks fun
I dont agree that looks should be the first priority but, eh, good luck.

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G-E
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I put terrain first only because I don't know what game mechanics you are after? The issue is many of the houses and indeed the unit types are dictated by the terrain as well, like Arrakis itself. You can't have a worms acting like sea monsters on a frozen planet can you?

The Tleilaxu are weaselly people that don't engage in combat, they engineer assassins made to look like natives and create modified clones of important people for all the major govts, so they can't be a side.

IX is not terribly well described, but seems to be closest to the era of the Bulterian Jihad, the last place where machines (Omnius) still control any real estate, along with their technology enhanced servants. They produce technology not any specific fighting or harvesting units, and because they are the universal tech merchants for all the things no one else remembers how to do/make, they are left alone as a necessary evil.

The Rossaks with their witches and hunters could make a good terrorist faction, they live on a forest world similar to say the moon of Endor from Return of the Jedi... except everything is poisonous. They have no real technology to speak of, in a sense they are like angry hippies in the woods.

The Spacing Guild is highly secretive and stays neutral in all cases, operating purely as couriers and messengers, so besides references, you can't use them as a faction either.

Salusa Secundus is probably closest to newurban, lush, not overly developed, like a planet sized gated community of aristocrats. They do have their mercenaries of course, which obey the Emperor like a private army, but the planet itself doesn't really classify as a faction beyond that. I would use it as a locale instead, a place where battles are fought and the Sardukar can intervene or defend, but not playable.

So that really leaves 3 worlds:
- Arrakis, the warrior Fremen and their zensunni and zensufi working class, along with any aligned traders/smugglers
- Caladan, proper regimented army, large ships, aircraft etc
- Geidi Prime, proper army, heavy infantry, destructive ranged and superweapons

Caladan is a watery world, rocky islands, think Greece but larger. You could use a more jungle-like temperate as a base, similar to Omegabolt's. Their specialty should be light infantry and various attack aircraft.

Geidi prime is all industrial or wasteland, definitely urban, but needs a lot of desolation. Mountains of dusty garbage, toxic red deserts, chemical lakes and so on. Harkonnen are definitely the tanky faction if there is one. They also have light attack aircraft used mainly for hit-n-run not pitched battle.

Arrakis, obviously rocky and sandy, definitely desert terrain. You'd need lots of scattered villages, a few main walled cities, largely technophobic so very little in the way of paved areas or roads to facilitate ground units. Worms.

I'm not really sure what you could do with any of the other orders who specialized in training their minds in the wake of the revolt against the machines. They are all advisors and backroom manipulators, not soldiers.
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TAK02
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Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: It was Damascus.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for this piece of information, but I know/think that's just scratching the surface. Where C&C S Dune is supposed to shine is in details.
We all know Giedi Prime has terrible health condititions, Caladan is like Earth's Pangea (that super-continent which spilt up and formed the Earth as it is now), Arrakis desolte sand and rock, etc. I played E:BfD, and have seen enough D2 and D2k, all of which portray this perfectly.

That is not to say the Dune RTSs are reliable. They can only be looked at as a base for the actual Dune.

Key factors missing are the emphasis on story and character (though that's hard to bridge anyway when turning a book into game, let alone an RTS).

What I meant by "knowing Dune like the back of your hand" is that I require details. The first post has been edited to include the important bits of chatter from the Discord, so you can know what I'm aiming at.

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G-E
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

These are the important ones for lore...


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TAK02
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

People look down on Brian's work, but I don't why. And frankly, I don't want to know.

And G-E, while your input is appreciated, it still doesn't answer the questions above, and I kinda want the specifics very hush-hush. So please use the given mail address Smile
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m7 wrote:
I tend to release things I create so that assets are never lost to hard drive problems, accidental deletion, or me having to pretend to care about rippers taking things from my project when it is done. #Tongue
I once ninja'd MigEater #Tongue
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G-E
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brian's storytelling is simplistic by comparison, he doesn't understand geopolitics like Frank did, his conflicts or internal struggles are almost one-dimensional and often not even critical to the story, merely garnish.

Butlerian Jihad also diverged significantly from what I was expecting, and I think that's mostly because there was no defined story framed out in notes that Frank never turned into a book, it was snippets they tried to make important. I would even argue it is inaccurate because of certain details, that would have pushed the story elsewhere, but I have no authority in the matter. Nevertheless, it does provide a lot of useful and relevant details, much like the all the chapter page quotes in G-E of D Smile
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G-E
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can think of many interesting details, but are the specific traits of a man or a beast important when you have an army without it?

For example, in Butlerian Jihad we learn the Atreides line is actually plucked from a much older and virile genepool than the soft and useless humans that ended up being enslaved by the machines. So let's assume we're starting with superior breeding stock, they still had to mate with contemporaries for about 10000yrs until we get to the first Dune book. In the Dune series we learn of the remarkable tricks the Atreides have learned to control and even neutralize poisons in some cases. What would this immunity of the ruling class of Caladan matter to the foot soldier? How would it change the war except in attempted assasinations?
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Mig Eater
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What has Kane & Yuri got to do with the Dune universe!?
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TAK02
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Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Location: It was Damascus.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This topic was supposed to only have the top post as announcement, with discussions and the like being done over
supremeccmod@gmail.com

And while Yuri should be dead long before Dune even starts, Kane ought to be still alive and well, if he has managed to exist for "thousands of years working towards this".

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G-E
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prior to the discovery of melange, the only humans that lived exceptionally long in the Dune universe were the Cymeks, the cyborg arachnid type bodies housing preserved brains. You can think Robocop in a different body, or any number of brain controlled robots in other stories. They weren't immortal, but they were able to keep the brains alive as long as their pod was intact, they could even switch to more specialized bodies. One of the Cymeks was the ancestor of the Atreides line.

After the war against the machines, what was left of humanity rejected and feared all complex technology, which is why you are left with simplistic devices like glow globes and the Holtzman effect shielding everywhere, but no thinking computers. Since no one had Google and robot servants anymore, they had to learn how to think again, to do things again. That's where the Guild, BG, and Mentat schools come from, the desire to accomplish that which machines did before.

The Guild can see futures, many futures, and they are good at probablistic analysis or prediction, which is how they know where to jump in space. The BG are able to compel people with "Jedi mind tricks" but are not pychics, their skill is in reading thoughts and detecting deceit, trainee BG acolytes are used as lie detectors by all the houses. The Mentat order focused purely on mathematics and tactics, like human calculators. So in a sense you have 1 order for each: future, present, past.

I don't think there's any way you can stuff Yuri into that.
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TAK02
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about Kane? He is known to be able to work from the shadows. And Yuri is already dead from age. Only his research/data remains, in Kane's hands.
Paving the way for the Bene Gesserit's Voice.

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G-E
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The witches of Rossak are the precursors to the BG, they used various herbal drugs, but the BG order itself isn't formalized until like 5000yrs later.

So the Mentat order is actually the oldest of them all. The past, the present and the future are in correct order Wink

The only way I can see Kane fit into your weird mashup is if he's a ghola, rather than being old, he's just repeatedly cloned.
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TAK02
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You seem to know your stuff, G-E #Tongue

But I think that's a little too far into the past. C&C Dune begins where the first Dune novel begins: Paul Atreides heading to Arrrakis with his parents.
Then it's the smaller things from there.

For instance, how Fremen tribes act around other tribes (that is, if there are more than pne tribe in the first place), and especially regarding the Fremen outcast of Jacurutu. You should chk the first post.

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G-E
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Fremen of Arrakis are pretty much like Afghanistan still is today, divided by sand and rock, they have meetings of elders and a dispute resolution is done by vote among them. Each tribe will have its own customs. They have formed a new spiritual culture around the sandworms, perhaps closest to the Zoroastrians. .. or possibly Yezidi (proto-luciferians) since they understand Shai-hulud (Shaitan) holds the key to ultimate knowledge and life.

The Zensunni and Zensufi are the working class ejected from earth that have wandered the galaxy, and usually got enslaved. They worship Buddallah and have a very fatalist outlook on life, which is why it is hard to get them to be a meaningful revolutionary force. Unlike the Fremen who have grown hard and uncompromising.

On a smaller scale, Fremen have the fight to the death, or for certain crimes they are sent out into the desert without a stillsuit. This should mean certain death, but of course sometimes they survive and find a new home of misfits.
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Wolfsangel
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry but this isn't even mod announcement... Wrong place.
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TAK02
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wolfsangel wrote:
I'm sorry but this isn't even mod announcement... Wrong place.
I asked Banshee, and he said here. Though I'm sure he expected people to send me a mail instead of replying here. So did I.

@G-E There are far too many details in there. When I said details I didn't mean religious details. I meant cullture and behavior, possible clashes with other tribes etc.

Maybe you could tell me whether ot not any of the Fremen (including the outcasts of Jacurutu) would ever ally with anyone not from Dune (regardless if one of the great Houses(Atreides, Harkonnen, Ordos, Corrino) or not(Kane)), and when would hey do so.
Would the outcasts ally with whoever promised to deliver the other Fremen to them?
Would the "traditional" Fremen follow along if the outcasts end up dead/hurt?

Is Jacurutu big enough to build a Psychic Amplifier #Tongue or would the outcasts kill you first, even if you hide they'll be affected by the thing too?

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G-E
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you are constantly walking with death, you don't look to make enemies.

You're asking an arbitrary question, would you ally with a bum? Would a band of criminals recruit normal folk? I dunno depends on the person. I would say most likely these are the wrong questions to be asking, and the Herbert's aren't going to be any help here.

The Fremen allied with Atreides because of Paul, they followed _him_ not his clan. They were impressed by the morals the both Paul and Leto had yes, but that would only get you as far as friendship, especially when on Arrakis they are the experts on survival. When it is so easy to die on Arrakis, you don't invite risk by just following some foreigner because he was nice to you.
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TAK02
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This post assumes the Sayadinahs are Bene Gessirit defectors, more or less.
G-E wrote:
The Fremen allied with Atreides because of Paul, they followed _him_ not his clan. They were impressed by the morals the both Paul and Leto had yes, but that would only get you as far as friendship, especially when on Arrakis they are the experts on survival. When it is so easy to die on Arrakis, you don't invite risk by just following some foreigner because he was nice to you.
The only reason why they followed Paul was because of the prophecy, right? And seeing as you have no qualms over letting Kane secretly run the show on Bene Gessirit and (or not) Guild, it's more than possible to alter the prophecy to suit Kane's or someone else's plan.

For instance, the Bene Gessirit that defected to Arrakis in the early days (Sayadinah, was it?) made the prophecy. What if Kan knew/counted on some defecting, and made sure of the necessary precaustions (i.e teaching a different prophecy to carry over)?
Of course, details matters here: What's the relationship of the Sayadinahs to the Bene Gessirit? Did they throw away all the Sisterhood's teachings after defection? Or did they use/take the ones the Sisterhood "dispised"/said to stray away from?

Alternately, the Sayadinahs can be secret agents to the Bene Gessirit, as opposed to defectors.

If yes: the prophecy can be altered to something else

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G-E
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're trying to put a square peg in a triangular hole, Kane is a man, he can't be behind the BG or their predecessors, nor in any position of power. The BG themselves are not a political organization, they are a cult with their own agenda, who have found a niche within other great societies as truthsayers and advisors, where they can gently manipulate events to achieve their goals.

You can directly compare the BG with the judeo-satanist secret societies, where they have a multi-generational agenda, where their goals might not be achieved in their own lifetimes. This is a radical difference to how normal societies operate, and it is why their plans go under the radar, it is hard to fathom how events 20 or even 70yrs apart are part of the same plan. They serve a secret agenda and recruit unwitting pawns, but they do not fight, they would rather wait for another opportunity than fight. Their breeding program is inline with this.
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NimoStar
Tiberian Fiend


Joined: 07 Nov 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
he issue is many of the houses and indeed the unit types are dictated by the terrain as well, like Arrakis itself. You can't have a worms acting like sea monsters on a frozen planet can you


Why not? That would be awesome actually. Snow wyrms. And instead of eating vehicles, in their anim they fry them with blue fire. F*ck yeah :V

Also, judeo-satanist secret societies? lol
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NimoStar wrote:
Also, judeo-satanist secret societies? lol


Some of the society names they go by:
Skull and Bones.
Knights of Malta.
Illuminati.
Freemasons.
Committee of 300.
Council of Rome.
Red Circle.
Order of St. Hubertus.
etc...

Some of the "idoelogical" names:
Kabbalists.
Frankists.
Jacobians.
Luciferians.
Sabbatians.
Jesuits.
etc...
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TAK02
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...I'm starting to think asking this kind of thing was/is a big mistake. Maybe I should've instead written down a rough-draft first (as in actually write it, not think about it on the fly) and put that one here instead.

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