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 Forum index » Modding Central » Red Alert 2 Editing Forum » Ares (Unofficial Forum)
Custom Image Extention triggered by Weapon (SHRINKRAY)
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AnimalMan
Missile Trooper


Joined: 06 Feb 2018

PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:31 pm    Post subject:  Custom Image Extention triggered by Weapon (SHRINKRAY) Reply with quote

II had an idea on how to create a shrink ray, but will need new tags.

Here, we create a tag that modifies infantry image temporarily, in which the player could make custom "SHRUNKEN" Shps for each infantry  that may be tagged like TANY_S.shp (using similar extention logic to alternate arctic and wo). I.e (this is the image of the shrunken version to use when this infantry is targeted with shrinkray=yes)

additional tags could control the variables - shrinkray time modifier, range modifier, attack modifier, speed modifier etc. --- health etc.

Of course this logic may not only be used for shrinkray, but also freezers and expanders as the image extention could be customized into anything the modder desires.

Last edited by AnimalMan on Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:02 pm; edited 2 times in total

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4StarGeneral
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Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Location: Constant Flux

PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unit-to-unit would solve the same issue if it retains health.
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Bu7loos
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Joined: 27 Jul 2011
Location: Kuwait

PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please make pokemon logic (turn units into another)
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AnimalMan
Missile Trooper


Joined: 06 Feb 2018

PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Unit-to-unit would solve the same issue if it retains health.



this may disrupt AI usage of the units. new alternate image extention is the way. Trigger the image change to the custom extention temporarily on a target for a number of frames through a weapon.#

unit-to-unit may cause adverse effects, such as a deselection, unit lost, it may register as a death, additional units may be counted. all this would be harder to tune. With image extention we go with what we know works - like water image. I don't know though,

It is a potential mechanic never the less - with a nice variable of customization, and something that potentially everybody could use.

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4StarGeneral
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Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Location: Constant Flux

PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bu7loos wrote:
Please make pokemon logic (turn units into another)
Technically we can already do this to infantry via AnimToInfantry on an elite weapon that autofires at itself. Sure it doesn't keep health, but consider it a tactical mechanic. #Tongue
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cxtian39
Tiberian Beast


Joined: 11 Feb 2016
Location: United States

PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conversion is not meant to lose the original unit. If you deploy your mcv you know your mcv isn't counted as lost and you won't deselect it if it converts and triggers work fine. Unit-to-unit should preserve these properties.
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AnimalMan
Missile Trooper


Joined: 06 Feb 2018

PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With unit-to-unit you will not be able to make the weapon seem to have a unique effect on each infantry/vehicle it is targeted, you will just have a mutator gun, which is already possible with infantry.

Again, with an image change and new custom extention ---- a single weapon can appear to have multiple effects on different types of unit.

Instead of having "ShrunkenPerson.shp"  as a universal shrunken person - you would have an actual mini Tanya and an actual mini conscript produced from the same weapon + effected by modifier (shp/image could be zombie versions, frozen versions, shrunken versions, enlarged versions)

Unit to Unit - this gun makes that unit a rhino tank.. A somewhat less useful/impressive mechanism.

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Bu7loos
Commander


Joined: 27 Jul 2011
Location: Kuwait

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Technically we can already do this to infantry via AnimToInfantry on an elite weapon that autofires at itself. Sure it doesn't keep health, but consider it a tactical mechanic. #Tongue


LMAO! That really made my day.

Still that wont cut it some serious tag needs to be implemented.

I want more Veteran ranks and wana try all sorts of stuffs.

I'll bribe Alex if I have to #Tongue
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Last edited by Bu7loos on Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:11 pm; edited 1 time in total

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AnimalMan
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Joined: 06 Feb 2018

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I renamed thread to be more appropriate Smile

Unit-to-Unit is not an equivalent mechanic.

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Graion Dilach
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Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Location: Iszkaszentgyörgy, Hungary

PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Last I checked - sure, was years ago -, the renderer of this engine ain't remotely 3D and there are GODDAMNED amount of references between renderer and game logics so this likely does not worth the effort.

Feel free picking up OpenRA instead if you really need this - it can do this.
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AnimalMan
Missile Trooper


Joined: 06 Feb 2018

PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just want to further detail this concept -



The shrinkray is a mechanic that would - trigger a change - in its targets artwork. This "Change" would come in the form of an - image extention (wo, turr etc) - to its TARGETS artwork, for example TANYS1 XXXXS1, with S1 being the extention that is triggered by the shrinkray weapon.

This then allows the weapon to have a unique effect on its targets artwork. As with Ares WaterImage= that allows you to define a new image when the unit is passing over the water. Though in the case of the shrinkray - you are triggering a temporary image change that comes in the form of an extention.


The variables of this effect would be controlled by the warhead or weapon.

Modifers would include

ShrinkrayDuration= Number of frames the image extention is displayed
+
AttachEffect modifiers relating to attack, speed, strength etc.


The weapon merely tells the target unit to use a differnt art for a number of frames.
Attach effect or custom modifers flavour the effect.




Unit-to-Unit is a differnt logic that can be used to simulate unit upgrades.

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XxpeddyxX
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Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Location: Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pretty sure alex is trying to avoid adding anymore WaterImage variations
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cxtian39
Tiberian Beast


Joined: 11 Feb 2016
Location: United States

PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because you need a lot of images for it to work. You need shrinken_Image, shrinken_WaterImage, shrinken_NoSpawnAlt, shrinken_UnloadingClass... and each of these may contain 1 or more turrets if this is an IFV or Prism Tank...
Every time you add a new image variations, it interacts with all of the previous ones and all of their codes need to be modified.
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AnimalMan
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Joined: 06 Feb 2018

PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

could come in the form of an image tag == unique to the unit. - must be set on the unit itself - as would bounty value tags.


instead an extention ---


wouldnt have to support voxels water image.




Chrono Legionaire with a shrinkray vs infantry :O

is all am saying.

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NCoder
Vehicle Driver


Joined: 22 Mar 2015

PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pardon any incoherencies in the ensuing brainstorming:

AnimalMan wrote:

Unit-to-Unit is a differnt logic that can be used to simulate unit upgrades.

Or it could be used to implement what you are requesting. I can see generalized Type?Type transition as having a far broader applicability than even a more generalized function of "inflicting alternate artwork", while covering all applications that may be covered by the latter; it also exports the matrix concatenation that cxtian39 has mentioned as plagueing the implementation of additional "AltImage" functions from code to INI, because it would be possible to define further transitions in the sections of a Type that another Type has transformed into, rather than handling all possible transitions with additional tags in a single section.

Code:

[Type]
ImageLandSpawns=xxx
ImageLandNoSpawns=yyy
ImageWaterSpawns=zzz
ImageWaterImageNoSpawns=aaa


becomes

Code:

[Type]
WaterType=TypeW
NoSpawnsType=TypeNoSpawns

[TypeW]
NoSpawnsType=TypeNoSpawnsW

[TypeNoSpawns]
WaterType=TypeNoSpawnsW

[TypeNoSpawnsW]
SpawnsType=TypeW
LandType=TypeNoSpawns ; needs special handling for one-in-a-hundred chance of Spawns regeneration and entering a land cell occuring at the same time?


Of course, if one wants, for whatever reason, to limit oneself to just image handling and does not want to introduce type transitions, then the exportation of these tags could also be achieved by reading just the Image from a section, as RA2/YR natively does in the case of the UnloadingClass tag.

What needs to be considered, though, is how conditions can be defined on part of the modder to trigger a transition (insert cross-reference here to that post in the main ARES suggestion thread that asked for an UnloadingClass for transports, to be triggered by units being deployed from it or entering it); it appears that without a more fundamental re-write, we might be limited to a hard-coded set of transition conditions per-unit (PromotedInto, DeploysInto, etc.), which could be linked up to certain warhead attributes, and perhaps a freely expandable range of transitions inflicted by warheads, which however would be identical for all units they affect (consider "Webby" of Firestorm, which would give all affected InfantryTypes the appearance of Light Infantry) - this is obviously not desireable for a thing like a shrink ray, which should produce smaller versions of affected units, and not turn all affected units into the same Type. Arguably, a workaround exists for this problem by granting such a weapon several warheads by means of AirburstWeapon, each warhead affecting a certain kind of enemy, but I suppose a cleaner implementation would be to introduce a "transition type" tag on warheads that allows customization of the transition to be inflicted by the warhead, rather than handling a limited range of transitions by means of booleans on warheads.

Ex.:
Code:

[Warhead]
TransitionType=OnFire

[Unit]
TransitionType.OnFire=UnitOnFire ; when hit by a warhead with TransitionType.OnFire


rather than

Code:

[Warhead]
Ignites=yes

[Unit]
IgnitedType=UnitOnFire ; when hit by a warhead with Ignites=yes


Of course, this only covers warhead-inflicted transitions; transitions caused by other game features would, I suppose, still be limited to a rather small range of hard-coded conditions, which may however allow for any desired application.  

There is one last feature that is covered by the original request, but is not accounted for in Type?Type transitions, and that is temporal limitation. Arguably, workarounds can be conceived (InitialAmmo, AmmoType), but any workaround that I can think of would bite itself with other features.

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4StarGeneral
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Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Location: Constant Flux

PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly a "shrink ray" is asking too much of a SHP based engine, it could be done with voxels much like the HVA, but it would break the intricate voxels like ones with moving treads and really there would be no point if you couldn't do it to SHPs too. Stick with the debuff it would give, this engine can't do everything.

I do like the TransitionType feature though and could possibly function the same as unit-to-unit in veterancy by giving ElitePrimary a weapon that hits itself with the TransitionType.Veterancy= warhead. Even that is a workaround though, so I'm not sure it's the right way to go about it.
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