Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:00 am Post subject:
Without Windows...
Subject description: I was wondering if...
I was wondering if it is possible to run windows based programs without running windows and i know its sounds stupid but if im correct programs like any C&C game use windows dlls and pull prewritten code and data from them so the programmers don't have to write all of that and run off that. So i'm thinking well if you point the program to the files it needs in dos, we would have faster gaming! Like console gaming systems which have very simple OS's, don't need a ton of processing power and can run on lower system requirements. So if anyone knows something , its one small step from me one giant leap for the community!
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Tiberian Sun's' "Sun.exe" imports functions from Windows
DOS will be somewhat slower then using XP. The whole reason they (i.e. Microsoft) got rid of MSDOS in XP is because they couldn't get the performance that was required. Windows 95 and 98 were built "on-top-of" DOS and hence are pretty unoptimised - in order to get the performance boost that was required to run XP, MS made XP from the ground up and got rid of MSDOS.
(on another note) If however, anyone is up with designing and building a console (h/w + s/w) as a project, I will be happy to participate. But it will take a lot of effort - and will most likely be 16 or 32-bit such that the components are not too expensive. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 26 Nov 2002 Location: Algae Colony On Mars
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:53 am Post subject:
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DOS will be somewhat slower then using XP. The whole reason they (i.e. Microsoft) got rid of MSDOS in XP is because they couldn't get the performance that was required. Windows 95 and 98 were built "on-top-of" DOS and hence are pretty unoptimised - in order to get the performance boost that was required to run XP, MS made XP from the ground up and got rid of MSDOS.
Plus, NT-based systems were far more reliable than DOS-based ones.
I think what needs to be done is something akin to WINE. Of course, it's nowhere near perfect but benchmarks have shown improvements in areas, albeit significant drops in others. Surprisingly the tests show that Q3 and UT2K4 run slower, but they have native Linux ports. Ultimately, if you want this it would be easier to just shut down all unneeded services and wipe as much out of startup as possible. I've managed to reduce my idling RAM usage to just under 140MB by doing this, leaving the other 382MB for whatever games I play. _________________
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This is sexier than what this forum was supposed to tolerate. - Banshee
I was wondering if it is possible to run windows based programs without running windows and i know its sounds stupid but if im correct programs like any C&C game use windows dlls and pull prewritten code and data from them so the programmers don't have to write all of that and run off that. So i'm thinking well if you point the program to the files it needs in dos, we would have faster gaming! Like console gaming systems which have very simple OS's, don't need a ton of processing power and can run on lower system requirements. So if anyone knows something , its one small step from me one giant leap for the community!
no, this isn't possible.
main problem in TS - graphic output.
your "very simple OS" will not have any drivers for video card -> it will be very slow.
Also TS use a Windows window features, so it difficult to change it.
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Lynux can run Windows programs IIRC.. I'm not that familiar with it though
using WINE, a Windows API emulation.
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DOS will be somewhat slower then using XP. The whole reason they (i.e. Microsoft) got rid of MSDOS in XP is because they couldn't get the performance that was required. Windows 95 and 98 were built "on-top-of" DOS and hence are pretty unoptimised - in order to get the performance boost that was required to run XP, MS made XP from the ground up and got rid of MSDOS.
bullshit.
MS-DOS faster, because it have not multi-task stuffs (so it don't lost time during task swicthing).
And Windows 98 work faster than Windows XP.
Press Ctrl+Shift+Esc and see what number of process you have now.
is you really need all? no, of course.
so start from clearing it.
At the end, anything won't increase TS speed in any way (or just 1%). _________________ ARM forever - x86 sucks QUICK_EDIT
bullshit.
MS-DOS faster, because it have not multi-task stuffs (so it don't lost time during task swicthing).
And Windows 98 work faster than Windows XP.
VK,
If you had to rebuild all the Hardware Abstraction Layers not supplied by MSDOS as APIs in DOS just to run the game, including Direct X, it will end up slower. This is exactly why XP was designed and MSDOS was abandoned. DOS didn't have enough guts, and Microsoft wanted a more direct way to access the hardware.
"Hardware abstraction layers are of an even lower level in computer languages than application programming interfaces (API) because they interact directly with hardware instead of a system kernel, therefore HALs require less processing time than APIs. " - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardware_Abstraction_Layer QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 26 Nov 2002 Location: Algae Colony On Mars
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:41 pm Post subject:
At a guess DOS (6.22, not one of the 9x ones) probably can't handle too much RAM and would die at the sight of a modern processor and graphics card.
If you really wanted to pick an ancient OS with small hardware requirements you could just pick BeOS or go more old-school and get AmigaOS. Regardless of choice there's still the effort needed to make a compatibility layer to run these games. Go and work on the WINE project instead rather than do this or simply downgrade to 2000. All games should work fine on 2000 (anything that works on 98 or XP will work on it, theoretically) and it's essentially a more stable, more lightweight XP. _________________
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This is sexier than what this forum was supposed to tolerate. - Banshee
At a guess DOS (6.22, not one of the 9x ones) probably can't handle too much RAM and would die at the sight of a modern processor and graphics card.
Well what about building a dos like structure that supports the modern system like understanding that the system has over a gig of ram or multi core or multi processor support and most of the tech computers these days use. I think its possible to install drivers for hardware and point dos to it, I used MS VPC and installed dos 6.22 and win 3.11 on it but needed to install cd rom drivers to install windows so if thats possible then im sure someone could get it to work even if special drivers and software are needed.
Besides, windows is technically just a bunch of programs running together.
Equiredox wrote:
If you had to rebuild all the Hardware Abstraction Layers not supplied by MSDOS as APIs in DOS just to run the game, including Direct X, it will end up slower. This is exactly why XP was designed and MSDOS was abandoned. DOS didn't have enough guts, and Microsoft wanted a more direct way to access the hardware.
But Windows XP uses a ton of power compared to win 98 and can't you just take the drivers in Win Xp and export them to the other Windows OS's? _________________ With sadness in my heart and joy in my mind QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 26 Nov 2002 Location: Algae Colony On Mars
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:17 pm Post subject:
Quote:
Well what about building a dos like structure that supports the modern system like understanding that the system has over a gig of ram or multi core or multi processor support and most of the tech computers these days use. I think its possible to install drivers for hardware and point dos to it, I used MS VPC and installed dos 6.22 and win 3.11 on it but needed to install cd rom drivers to install windows so if thats possible then im sure someone could get it to work even if special drivers and software are needed.
Besides, windows is technically just a bunch of programs running together.
No offense but you seem like a person who's found a little program that tells you what calls an executable makes and want to make a brand new OS or add to an existing one to make a slight difference to memory usage without any actual knowledge of operating systems. You either want to use Linux with WINE (not a perfect solution) or ReactOS(not a perfect solution). As I said, Windows 2000 has lower system specs than Windows XP, therefore running 2000 should increase game speeds. That's a far more effective method, do that. _________________
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This is sexier than what this forum was supposed to tolerate. - Banshee
But Windows XP uses a ton of power compared to win 98 and can't you just take the drivers in Win Xp and export them to the other Windows OS's?
Just use 'msconfig' and get rid of all the extra processes that XP comes with that you don't need running to play the game - this will speed it up by heaps.
Also, Windows XP runs as 'NT V4' - so Windows XP drivers are different in comparison to 98 drivers - that's why they usually have two sets of drivers, one for 98se and another for 2000/XP when releasing hardware. QUICK_EDIT
My reason for this isn't simply for ultimate gaming, building a new OS or getting speed under Windows, but to find out if its possible to run an application without Windows running at all which I know is technically impossible by what I'm being told. For a better picture, say you turn on your computer and boot straight to dos and type in a path to a program that runs under Windows, but you don't want/have Windows so instead you load a file which I will call "System.exe". So you execute it and it runs and shows in a cascade of words
So, you are trying to run a program without having the OS running...?
Well, you may get your wish... One of the strange side effects of a quantum computer is being able to output data without it being switch on... apparantly . Given the the Orion quantum computing was demonstrated at the beginning of this year, it shows quantum computers are becoming a reality.
Other then that, I don't think it is possible. You are trying to run a Windows application without Windows or a suitable OS running, unless you have some special hardware. Also, just asking, why does TS need this extra performance? I am not aware of such a problem?
I am suprised Banshee hasn't replied in regards to DOS versus Windows, he is the computer scientist - he should be an expert on OS architecture. QUICK_EDIT
Well, you may get your wish... One of the strange side effects of a quantum computer is being able to output data without it being switch on... apparantly . Given the the Orion quantum computing was demonstrated at the beginning of this year, it shows quantum computers are becoming a reality.
Uhh what? I Wiki'd it and kinda understand but no thats not what I was looking for... Pretty interesting though
Equiredox wrote:
Other then that, I don't think it is possible. You are trying to run a Windows application without Windows or a suitable OS running, unless you have some special hardware.
I'm thinking maybe a Windows mock for DOS, all of the needed Windows resources in a folder and a DOS hybrid which uses those resources to act like Windows when it runs but without all the unneeded processes and stuff.
Equiredox wrote:
Also, just asking, why does TS need this extra performance? I am not aware of such a problem?
It doesn't and don't, i'm using it as an example in place of any program that runs fullscreen, doesn't use the Windows gui and doesn't allow quick moving or exiting (as in the _ [] X ) but normally is executed under Windows. The program can't run in a window or at least normally "Calculator, Internet Explorer and Paint do with gui" _________________ With sadness in my heart and joy in my mind QUICK_EDIT
VK,
If you had to rebuild all the Hardware Abstraction Layers not supplied by MSDOS as APIs in DOS just to run the game, including Direct X, it will end up slower. This is exactly why XP was designed and MSDOS was abandoned. DOS didn't have enough guts, and Microsoft wanted a more direct way to access the hardware.
for example, DOS have API too...
I don't need to rebuild all this shit however.
Microsoft was created a Windows, because they want "shut up" OS/2 system.
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Hardware abstraction layers are of an even lower level in computer languages than application programming interfaces (API) because they interact directly with hardware instead of a system kernel, therefore HALs require less processing time than APIs.
this text isn't 100% right. API can't be compared with HAL stuffs.
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My reason for this isn't simply for ultimate gaming, building a new OS or getting speed under Windows, but to find out if its possible to run an application without Windows running at all which I know is technically impossible by what I'm being told. For a better picture, say you turn on your computer and boot straight to dos and type in a path to a program that runs under Windows, but you don't want/have Windows so instead you load a file which I will call "System.exe". So you execute it and it runs and shows in a cascade of words
why exe? it must be called system.bin
And you forget that main Windows task - run WIN API based application.
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I'm thinking maybe a Windows mock for DOS, all of the needed Windows resources in a folder and a DOS hybrid which uses those resources to act like Windows when it runs but without all the unneeded processes and stuff.
you don't understand what is Windows in reality.
Windows in reality have size only 10-20mb (main system files).
all other stuffs like wallpapers, sounds, help can be deleted without any problems.
a lot of programs can be deleted too. for example you can delete calc.exe, notepad.exe, explorer.exe etc.
and Windows will work without it.
You can read more about Windows XP Embedded on Microsoft site.
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It doesn't and don't, i'm using it as an example in place of any program that runs fullscreen, doesn't use the Windows gui and doesn't allow quick moving or exiting (as in the _ [] X ) but normally is executed under Windows. The program can't run in a window or at least normally "Calculator, Internet Explorer and Paint do with gui"
bullshit. how you determine it? just go and open language.dll in resource editor - all dialogs in TS are generic Windows GUI!
also TS is using a lot of another different Windows stuffs, including WinSock API. _________________ ARM forever - x86 sucks QUICK_EDIT
It is interesting what you guys say. And in some respects I agree with you.
pd, I understand where you are coming from. My argument is, if everything (involved in running the game - such as Direct X etc.) was built upon DOS that it will run slower. As an extreme example, imagine building Bioshock for MSDOS.
The Direct X architecture is split into two major components / layers. The API component which you brought up, and the HAL, which is below the API layer. You interface with the HAL, by calling certain functions (e.g. to render a set of primitives (such as terrain) or load in a mesh or a texture). This can be thought of as a single call made by the API layer directed to the HAL layer. The HAL - which has more direct access to the hardware sorts everything out in fine detail, which turns out to be much faster then having everything done with the API itself and not having the HAL present.
I know DOS can write directly to h/w, and that is how old DOS games worked. My major argument is trying to get TS (which depends on many windows components) to work with DOS, you will need to add several layers of addition processing before it reaches the h/w level in comparison to XP. Whether that is by emulation or some form of interpreter. This is what I mean by "building on top of" DOS. Last edited by Equiredox on Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:02 am; edited 3 times in total QUICK_EDIT
If everything was built upon DOS that it will run slower...
On a serious note, wasn't Windows built on DOS? Didn't Windows stem from DOS? And doesn't Windows start from Dos? Which according to what I'm reading Windows is slower than it could be. But instead it directly accesses the hardware making it normal. So I think what I might be seeping from this is that a sort of nonexistent non-Dos booting straight to Windows booting machine which interpreted onto a "PC machine" makes Computers an emulated "Windows machine" making the system slower and less perfect.
I opened VPC and installed Dos 6.22 and Windows 3.11 and in XP pulled the Tiberian Sun folder up, checked all the files with eXeScope and looked at the import resource files...
Most or all called for these
So I searched my system32 folder for them and copied them to the SUN folder and dropped them in the Dos 6.22/Windows 3.11 VHD file and copied the imports into a C:\Windows\System32\ folder in the VHD file and for giggles...
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C:\Westwood\SUN\Game.exe
This program cannot be run in DOS mode.
Figures, of course I knew it would happen... So then I install Win95 on the same VPC so the system32 and sun folder were still there and try to execute the game.exe again with a message.
The files I copied into the SUN directory were being read instead of the windows directory files. Where if I remember Tiberian Sun and I think Red Alert 2 had an error with a windows directory file in Vista, this may solve that problem. I think the error had to do with String:XXXX or something...
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bullshit. how you determine it? just go and open language.dll in resource editor - all dialogs in TS are generic Windows GUI!
also TS is using a lot of another different Windows stuffs, including WinSock API.
Your right, but what I mean is that it isn't used and shown directly as TibSun uses its own GUI files (the background, font and buttons)
All in all now I'm thinking a "Windows Machine" emulator which acts like it in Dos would be needed. It would understand the system as what we see and give it that to run from acting like windows is running and access everything when needed instead of load-on-boot. _________________ With sadness in my heart and joy in my mind QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 26 Nov 2002 Location: Algae Colony On Mars
Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 12:00 pm Post subject:
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All in all now I'm thinking a "Windows Machine" emulator which acts like it in Dos would be needed. It would understand the system as what we see and give it that to run from acting like windows is running and access everything when needed instead of load-on-boot.
Look, you're searching for an overly extreme solution to a minor problem. This is like killing a mosquito with a bomb. Just use msconfig and services.msc to remove as many unneeded applications and services as possible, make sure your hard drive is properly degfragged and ensure no malware is installed (although after removing stuff from msconfig it probably isn't running). As I've said already, I've reduced my RAM usage to 138MB when idling (I could lower it more by removing power-related stuff but I'm running a laptop) as opposed to the 200-odd it usually is.
Oh, aiming at your sig here, supporting MNG until major browsers actually support it. To my knowledge, Firefox hasn't even included MNG support. Apparently, only Konqueror has it (and nobody uses Konqueror anyway). _________________
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This is sexier than what this forum was supposed to tolerate. - Banshee
How about DirectX?
DirectX relies on the Windows API
it isn't very true at least if you talk about DirectDraw.
For example Watcom compiler have a good graph library for DOS32 and it can be used instead of DirectDraw.
DirectDraw haven't anything from sky:
1)Ability to set video modes
2)Ability to access video memory
something like stretch and blt function is optional for TS - it never use it!
this is in main ALL video stuffs that needs Tiberian Sun engine.
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The Direct X architecture is split into two major components / layers. The API component which you brought up, and the HAL, which is below the API layer. You interface with the HAL, by calling certain functions (e.g. to render a set of primitives (such as terrain) or load in a mesh or a texture). This can be thought of as a single call made by the API layer directed to the HAL layer. The HAL - which has more direct access to the hardware sorts everything out in fine detail, which turns out to be much faster then having everything done with the API itself and not having the HAL present.
this is possible right for Direct3D, but isn't right with DirectDraw.
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I know DOS can write directly to h/w, and that is how old DOS games worked. My major argument is trying to get TS (which depends on many windows components) to work with DOS, you will need to add several layers of addition processing before it reaches the h/w level in comparison to XP. Whether that is by emulation or some form of interpreter. This is what I mean by "building on top of" DOS.
if you add this layers it won't be slowed than in windows!
also you can considering DOS32 as "very simple OS's".
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On a serious note, wasn't Windows built on DOS? Didn't Windows stem from DOS? And doesn't Windows start from Dos?
only Windows 3.11, Windows 95, Windows 98 and Windows ME based on DOS.
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Windows is slower than it could be.
please close all unused programs before said this.(like ICQ, MSN, etc)
in DOS you can have only one process running.
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The files I copied into the SUN directory were being read instead of the windows directory files. Where if I remember Tiberian Sun and I think Red Alert 2 had an error with a windows directory file in Vista, this may solve that problem. I think the error had to do with String:XXXX or something...
press right button on TS or RA2 or YR file and select "run as administrator". This will fix your problems in Vista.
you need do it only once.
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Your right, but what I mean is that it isn't used and shown directly as TibSun uses its own GUI files (the background, font and buttons)
I think I better know this item, because I really researching EXE file.
TS/RA2/YR used OwnerDraw controls.
If you still want to check it, go and open language.dll in resource editor and change some dialogs and then check it in game! _________________ ARM forever - x86 sucks QUICK_EDIT
Look, you're searching for an overly extreme solution to a minor problem. This is like killing a mosquito with a bomb. Just use msconfig and services.msc to remove as many unneeded applications and services as possible, make sure your hard drive is properly degfragged and ensure no malware is installed (although after removing stuff from msconfig it probably isn't running).
This has NOTHING to do with my system slugging down at all. This is soley for the purpose of finding out if
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it is possible to run windows based programs without running windows
Just to find out with some sort of work around as to NOT boot to Windows but run an app that requires it of course with it installed though. Not Linux Not Wine (Definetly not Mac) Just go to Dos and with a work around, run Windows programs...
Its not a speed problem or a error.This is just out of pure curiosity
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Oh, aiming at your sig here, supporting MNG until major browsers actually support it. To my knowledge, Firefox hasn't even included MNG support. Apparently, only Konqueror has it (and nobody uses Konqueror anyway).
I'm running Internet Explorer and have MNG support. Click and it will take you to the support page. And FireFox, Mozilla,Internet Explorer, Netscape, Opera and Mosaic are supported, just not by the creators (yet or whatever) Here is the page for the plugins which doesn't specify how to make it work so if you have IE, download the file unzip it to system32 dir and open run box and type
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reg dll filenamehere.extension
where of course filenamehere.extension would be the file
Also VK, if you can make TS/RA2 engine use your code like the multiple SW, why can't that invincible flying vehcle railgun thing be fixed? _________________ With sadness in my heart and joy in my mind QUICK_EDIT
Renegangsta, I think people aren’t taking you seriously, and in some cases you are making yourself look silly, because you don't appreciate the complexity of such a project. To just say "out of curiosity" or it may get a speed boost won't cut it. There are teams of 4-5 programmers who worked extensively for years to get a proper DOS emulator to work with windows, imagine how complex it will be to build a Windows emulator for DOS. The amount of effort put into such a project to make it a reality doesn't justify the advantages / functionality it will bring. It is just easy enough to install windows 98 or above to play it. QUICK_EDIT
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Without Windows...
. Given the the Orion quantum computing was demonstrated at the beginning of this year, it shows quantum computers are becoming a reality.
and it will take you to the support page. And FireFox, Mozilla,Internet Explorer, Netscape, Opera and Mosaic are supported, just not by the creators (yet or whatever) 
