Also Known As: banshee_revora (Steam) Joined: 15 Aug 2002 Location: Brazil
Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:27 am Post subject:
Premier: symmetrical n00b map invasion confirmed!
Subject description: This is how to NOT create maps!
Hey everyone! There is a lot of content being displayed at the Red Alert 3 official site. For many of the visitors here, who enjoy creating custom content such as mods and maps, there is an article on how they are creating these maps. Here's a snippet:
Quote:
The goal throughout the development of RA3 was to create a multiplayer experience that would appeal to a wide audience. We've added quite a variety of map sizes, from small, "knife-fight" 1v1 maps that are the favorites of our fast-click, hardcore MP crowd; to sprawling forests with multiple lanes, elevations, and back-doors, for the thoughtful meta-map strategist. Great map design can add depth by expanding the core experience across a variety of scenarios.
We take a similar approach when considering other important map elements. Garrison distances from major choke points, ore nodes, and points of interest are carefully measured to allow for optimal coverage of that combat area and usage of the garrison/degarrison mini-game. Points of interest, such as oil derricks and other tech buildings, are placed in areas where early-game combat should occur. Expansion points are set up to allow for various levels of player choice: do you take the risky expansion close to your enemy, or the safe expansion that is off to the side and away from your main force?
As you may have noticed, I strongly disagree at the way this guy works, starting by the fact that his goal is to create a multiplayer experience that would appeal to the wide ranked players audience only, where players are trained the click the mouse faster, to use the quickest keyboard shortcuts to take the resources of the map as quickly as possible, without any need to scout and also predicting the direction of the enemy attacks.
The main issue is that he only plans half or a fourth part of the map. If you know one side, you don't need to know the other. And what you need to know is the quickest way to take tech buildings and resources and tactics for it. I'm sorry, but this is a very mechanic RTS for me. There is no tactic required to adapt into different situations and no dynamism outside the enemy army.
I prefer the TS maps made by this community where it doesn't matter how many times you play the map, you'll never remember it because of the absurdly random way the map is made, making the map itself become a surprise factor. Also, the lack of scripts and triggers make the map almost dull to the outcome of the battle.
The article writter focus all his energies on ballance. I'm sure ballance is very important for any map, but believe me, you can achieve it with assymmetrical maps. It has been proven by maps submiited to the four editions of the Open Map Competition.
So that's it, ladies and gentlemen. We'll have yet another game totally infested with lame symmetrical maps that will make skirmish become a very boring experience, until there is a decent amount of custom made assymmetrical maps.
Also, in an unrelated note, they've choosen a nice lady (Gemma Atkinson) to perform as Lt Eva McKenna. However, there are some serious rumours they weren't very happy when choosing the the actress to play Tania. Last edited by Banshee on Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:07 pm; edited 4 times in total QUICK_EDIT
Symmetrical or not, Rock Ridge looks nice It's also rather big, which will be a good change from the relatively cramped maps we have in the current beta. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 26 Nov 2002 Location: Algae Colony On Mars
Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:04 pm Post subject:
I make my maps randomly, which I'm assuming nobody else does. I just start in a corner and work out until it looks like an actual map, I do have some rules that I follow by but I just add things until it looks like a nice map. If my maps are unbalanced then they're slight variations and not major problems. _________________
Quote:
This is sexier than what this forum was supposed to tolerate. - Banshee
I find that a symmetric map can be very fun, the defining difference is if it has varies terrain with tactical options. Lots of cliffs and water. Garrisons can be a neat little feature too, but aestetic stuff has no result on the end playablility for me (especially sicne I run on low settings). The problem with TW maps wasn't that they were symmetric, but that they were too flat. There was almost no way to take advanatge of the terrain. Atleast iff you have cliffs and water, you can take advantage of choke points (very improtant and a nesseccary), take high ground, and stage terrain specific raids (like using water).
Are symmetric maps predicatable? Not an more than unsymmetric. Any map can be predicted just my annallyzing it. _________________ Please, read the signature rules of the forum. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 18 Jun 2005 Location: Dordrecht, the Netherlands
Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 2:59 pm Post subject:
Clazzy wrote:
I make my maps randomly, which I'm assuming nobody else does. I just start in a corner and work out until it looks like an actual map, I do have some rules that I follow by but I just add things until it looks like a nice map. If my maps are unbalanced then they're slight variations and not major problems.
If you mean starting with a global idea and creating and changing things while making the map, then we do the same I am working on a KW map atm which I may put on download. QUICK_EDIT
I just "randomly" place the starting waypoints, allocate the correct amount of buildspace and tiberium and then just sort of start to expand from there on by determining the different staging areas (base locations, lower area, plateau, route A, route B). Then again, I try to make my maps look realistic. If there's a river or a canyon cutting through an otherwise almost perfectly symmetrical map at an odd angle, then I'd say I've been rather succesfull. I have made plenty of seemingly symmetrical maps that do not necessarily play as such, simply because of slight variations in build space, resources, choke points etc.
Check out Gloomy Glow in the TO map section for example (It's an old map and I can never be arsed to take screenshots and update the topic if there's new terrain pieces being released every 2 minutes requiring me to incorporate them sometimes), there's four islands and still plenty of room to stage a naval battle, but some islands are connected to the middle island with bridges or shallow water, some bases are located on cliffs, others are not. In-game, this turned out to fit just right, even though judging from the minimap you'd say it's a symmetrical unit spamfest.
This approach is just boring, it's basically like making RTS into RTM, real time maths. It is perfectly acceptable to have imbalances in resources, tech buildings, build space and choke points balance each other out, that's what playtesting is for. They could've used the Beta to find out which map locations were not very balanced etc. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 26 Nov 2002 Location: Algae Colony On Mars
Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:30 pm Post subject:
Dutchygamer wrote:
If you mean starting with a global idea and creating and changing things while making the map, then we do the same I am working on a KW map atm which I may put on download.
I don't even start with a plan, I put down cliffs and water until I have an idea what I can do with it. _________________
Quote:
This is sexier than what this forum was supposed to tolerate. - Banshee
Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:49 am Post subject:
My gripe with the CNC 3 maps wasn't the shapes it was the fact that the maps environments weren't interesting. In TS and RA2 there animals/monster and civilians moving around the maps. There where also trains and other vehicles doing the same sought of thing. The CNC 3 multi-player maps didn't have any of this! As for the symmetricalness of the RA 3 maps, since EA is also making RA 3 its no surprise to me. EA doesn't know or understand what made the past CNC games fun! _________________ QUICK_EDIT
I dont know what the problem is... I think shes gonna make a great!!! Tanya! _________________ MadHQ's Graveyard - Click here!
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Me and Apollo where talking about this the other day, Its rather stupid that EA Can't really sell games any other way other than using women to promote them.
(Not that theres anything wrong with the women they've chosen, They're ztyping sexy non-the-less).
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Is that the new Tanya? WTF is this, a porn game? EA, get some sence, and get some decent actors like the ones from TW >_<
You've obviously never seen Kari Wuhrer before Red Alert 2... QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 26 Nov 2002 Location: Algae Colony On Mars
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:40 pm Post subject:
Aro wrote:
Me and Apollo where talking about this the other day, Its rather stupid that EA Can't really sell games any other way other than using women to promote them.
(Not that theres anything wrong with the women they've chosen, They're ztyping sexy non-the-less).
Quote:
Is that the new Tanya? WTF is this, a porn game? EA, get some sence, and get some decent actors like the ones from TW >_<
You've obviously never seen Kari Wuhrer before Red Alert 2...
But Anaconda was amazing! Duh.
The actresses in C&C3 weren't used in the same way, they actually acted and they weren't just eye-candy. Granted, 66% of them were from Battlestar Galactica. _________________
Quote:
This is sexier than what this forum was supposed to tolerate. - Banshee
Joined: 18 Jun 2005 Location: Dordrecht, the Netherlands
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:05 pm Post subject:
Aro wrote:
Quote:
Is that the new Tanya? WTF is this, a porn game? EA, get some sence, and get some decent actors like the ones from TW >_<
You've obviously never seen Kari Wuhrer before Red Alert 2...
Yes, I've seen her before Aro It's just, why can they get some decent actors for TW, but not for RA3, which is more popular then TW (I guess)? QUICK_EDIT
Enjoy limited patch support and then wonder, "what happened? why has EA abandoned us?" and us RA2 oldies will be there saying "we told ya so". There was a glimmer of hope in Apoc saying he might re-patch RA2, or he'd love to but as usual it's all talk no actions (all he said he wanted to do was rubber stamp a community patch).
Just look at Tiberium Wars (original, not Kane's Waffles) going the same way. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Because coding up a random map generator for a 3D RTS would require more effort, time, and resources than they are willing to spend. (Although now that they're moving back to the grid it would be easier than if they were trying to make one for TW/KW.) _________________ WOL nick: migtybob
Also Known As: banshee_revora (Steam) Joined: 15 Aug 2002 Location: Brazil
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:06 pm Post subject:
I agree with you, Mighty BOB, although Age Of Empires III has one, which works great. I think it is worth coding a random map generator for their games, specially once the Live Team is estabilished, which will give the RTS dev team more time to work on the game before releasing it. QUICK_EDIT
I read somewhere that there was gonna be some dude from the beowulf movie. And with regards to Jenny McCarthy? So what she was a playboy bunny and may have been playmate of the year? She's still hot, and has has appeared in real films before. The picture I showed is her when she was a little younger, look at her now:
and this one she looks wicket old:
_________________ Please, read the signature rules of the forum. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:38 am Post subject:
Banshee wrote:
I agree with you, Mighty BOB, although Age Of Empires III has one, which works great. I think it is worth coding a random map generator for their games, specially once the Live Team is estabilished, which will give the RTS dev team more time to work on the game before releasing it.
What I'd like to see is a map editor that is as user friendly as the one in AoE 3. I was able to start making maps strait away in the AoM and AoE 3 without reading the help file or any tutorials. But for the Generals/TW one I had to read a tutorial in order to do basic things such as setting the lighting. Even after reading a few more tutorial I still found it very hard to use. I miss the FinalSun/FinalAlert days. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 24 May 2004 Location: Flanders (Be) Posts:300000001
Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:52 am Post subject:
Mighty BOB! wrote:
Because coding up a random map generator for a 3D RTS would require more effort, time, and resources than they are willing to spend. (Although now that they're moving back to the grid it would be easier than if they were trying to make one for TW/KW.)
With the grid system, they can pretty much use the RA2 one
Then again, I'd hate to see a RMG with the options "Make X-Symmetrical" and "Make Y-Symmetrical" _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 18 Jun 2005 Location: Dordrecht, the Netherlands
Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:51 am Post subject:
Lol, an Random Map Generator for 3D games would kill your pc's Look at the TW WB: it's a RAM whore. Imagine the pc creating the map for you. It would take hours or you pc would explode QUICK_EDIT
Lol, an Random Map Generator for 3D games would kill your pc's Look at the TW WB: it's a RAM whore. Imagine the pc creating the map for you. It would take hours or you pc would explode
Not really, that's with a graphical map creation tool. A random map generator would likely be more a CPU hog than a RAM one. QUICK_EDIT
Now after looking at that, How can you say she's gonna be a bad Tanya? _________________ MadHQ's Graveyard - Click here!
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I hate the hell out of the symmetrical playground bullshit. Actually I know I made that clear, and several people agreed, during that C&C3 summit me and Steppo were at. And it is disappointing that when I play RA3, if I find a build setup I'm comfortable with, I can do it no matter which start point on a map I get. Voluntarily I do things a bit differently but really I have no reason to. QUICK_EDIT
Then Burn the RA3 files/PCs so they have to start again, and repeat until the community gets a say... Just keep burning them basically. _________________ Yes, work on MV continues. It is not forgotten. QUICK_EDIT
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Premier: symmetrical n00b map invasion confirmed!
It's also rather big, which will be a good change from the relatively cramped maps we have in the current beta.
I am working on a KW map atm which I may put on download.
Symmetrical maps rule all!!!
