Also Known As: banshee_revora (Steam) Joined: 15 Aug 2002 Location: Brazil
Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:13 am Post subject:
The mod SDK campaign was totally ignored.
Subject description: That's the moment of the day when others think you have an IQ of an ape.
As fans of Command & Conquer games, especially the Kane's Wrath expansion for Command & Conquer 3, we are uniting the community in a new public campaign to highlight the extreme importance of a mod SDK for Kane's Wrath. As you know, modifications extend the life of the game, allowing fans to make their own rules and even support the game beyond the game's original life expectancy.
We are aware that the Electronic Arts Los Angeles RTS team is interested in creating a mod SDK for the game, but we are concerned about the lack of progress. We understand there are many things to do and not much time, but we request the developers increase the priority of the mod SDK, particularly over fixes for the world builder [1]. While the map making tool is not as friendly as it was supposed to be, fans are able to create maps. At the moment, fans are unable to create modifications using the new features from Kane's Wrath at all. This prevents fans from making mods that use the new features from the Kane's Wrath engine, such as the fixed APC, mechapede code, global conquest mode, etc. The lack of a mod SDK is also a major obstacle for the creation of partial conversions, balance mods and expansion mods based on Kane's Wrath, which is a very traditional kind of modification done to any C&C game. Though sometimes lacking the flair of a total conversion, these mods do very well and are generally very popular with fans who merely want to see the community add to EA's work, not replace it [2].
We, some of the C&C community webmasters, promoted polls on our sites about this issue. From the results, we can only conclude that a Kane's Wrath mod SDK should have a high priority after whatever fixes are necessary for the game [3]. You can see our polls at Project Perfect Mod, Thundermods, CnC Generals World, CnCHQ.de, CNCNZ and Planet CnC.
We reiterate that the need for a mod SDK is urgent--the sooner it is completed, the better! It is extremely important for the future of the community for both Tiberium Wars and Kane's Wrath. The longer it takes to be done, the fewer people will be interested in modding, and, as consequence, the game will become obsolete even faster [4]. We hope that this mod SDK will reflect EA's promised emphasis on aftermarket product support, and not echo past errors such as the Generals Ladder Kit, the 1.03 patch for the First Decade, and other support software and patches that arrived late or not at all. For all fans out there, please express your words of support in a reply below. For the devs, think carefully about this proposal, as we believe it can benefit both the game and the community.
We believed that, if you priorize the mod SDK over fixes on world builder, there was a higher chance to the mod SDK become a reality, even if it sacrifices newer versions of Kane's Wrath world builder.
Here is the latest update on the MOD SDK for KW that I have been trying to steer.
-There are some serious technical challenges with getting this SDK up and running, and quite frankly they are too dangerous and time consuming. I don't think we can get the resources to muster this up. Consider that right now we need to build an RA3 Mod SDK, fix KW World-builder [1], patch KW and RA3, to be perfectly honest, those are all more critical than a KW Mod SDK at this point. I know it's not ideal in saying that, but if you poll the community, I am certain that would be cold-hard truth [3].
-I am not giving up on a KW MOD SDK just yet, but, we have yet to see some of the truly great mods for C&C 3 come out and I feel the community spreads themselves very thin [4]. At best, right now a KW MOD SDK would bring new balance mods. Full blown mods are unlikely as many people will move to mod RA3 and finish up their C&C 3 mods [2]. I whole heartedily believe this.
- I am looking to potentially meet a middle compromise. Instead of releasing a full blown SDK, I am looking to potentially release all of our KW art assets so that you can mod those in to C&C 3. KW does not bring a lot of new significant functionality to the table, the primary being the Mechapede, garissoning customization, and epic units. Those are hard things to live without in a mod, but I think we can meet halfway.
Where I wish we could find a technical way is in the balance mods. This requires us to patch, and build the full SDK.
This campaign is not lost yet, but against the other priorities this community wants, we cannot do everything right now. I will do the best I can to either make this happen, or meet you guys halfway.
I hope this can be understood. Thank you and apologies.
I will keep pushing and keep updating you guys.
-APOC
How come the campaign isn't lost when he does an offer that ignores everything we've been fighting for? Why we should simply take Kane's Wrath art models if we won't be able to implement most of them? And how come this campaign is not lost if he did not read a single word from it?
And he tried to argue with polls? Specially when we did them all and in the vast majority, if not all, KW mod SDK has beaten fixes for the world builder with a large advantage?
And Global Conquest Mode alone is a new game! How come it is not a feature that is worth modding? So far it is a cool game that we are unable to mod and AI was ruined by the latest patch.
So, I wonder if he thinks he is talking to sheeps or other creatures with a very low IQ. Because the 'compromise' he offered is no way a compromise. He simply requested to not create the mod SDK and simply give away some art graphics. This is totally pathetic. I'm sorry.
I don't like posting news with such a bad mood, I have a tolerance to flames, but Mr. APOC has bypassed my limits by attacking my intelligence with his mod SDK update. Last edited by Banshee on Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:06 pm; edited 2 times in total QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 16 Feb 2005 Location: North America Posts: You cannot comprehend...
Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:56 am Post subject:
This just makes me shake my head... I'm hoping that there truly are serious reasons, not mentioned in the post, explaining the lack of a focused effort to create a Mod SDK for TW & KW. But my hope is dwindling... _________________ Destroy to create. All for the hunt to dominate!
Sort of ironic that the post that upsets you the most satisfied my expectations while it usually was the other way round...
Most people that know me should have figured that I really don´t like the way EA treats us modders. Yes, again I don´t fully agree with what he said, especially the second issue (which basically sums up to "KW is fucked, go buy RA3!"). However, this must be about the first post directed at us that is thoroughly honest. The SDK is low priority for the community, RA3 and KW Patch shouldn´t have to be explained but the WB is primarily a tool that extends the life of the actual game itself and on most non-modding pages ranked closely behind the SDK.
We have to accept that right now, the SDK cannot be realized regardless of what we´d want. This is truly a shame as it spells death to the TW/KW modding community and I wholeheartedly believe that thus, AR3 modding will be stillborn but we have no way of changing this. _________________ Off Duty. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 18 Jun 2005 Location: Dordrecht, the Netherlands
Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:56 am Post subject:
Meh, I'm happy they at least fix the KW WB for one time and release the KW art so we can use it in TW mods without having to do difficult... Still stupid of EA to ignore the KW Mod SDK. But I did see this coming. -1 point for EA from me QUICK_EDIT
Unlike the old days, when games were made by twelve guys with some coding knowledge, some graphical skill and a good idea, these games are simple a way for corporates to make money. The reason for not supporting a SDK is that now we've bought TW:KW, and EA can move on.
If they make modding easier, the fear of CEOs is that people will simply stop buying new products - that we will mod the games and add everything they hope to entice us with for later sagas.
The reason, I believe, for this is that they need to promise a SDK for RA3, and hope we all buy it.
Its really sad that I'm so young and yet so cynical. QUICK_EDIT
It was wrong of them/him to lead you on even slightly with this, but at least they've bit the bullet now and said what needed to be said.
An SDK for the next full game release being as close to launch as possible is a hell of a lot more important than an SDK for a expansion pack for a game that doesn't have a particularly large mod community anyway.
It'd be like adding another game mode to a multiplayer-only mod that only has 20 players in the first place. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Bleah. The reason no good mods have arrived for C&C3 is because nobody wants to make a mod that doesn't have the KW units. Get him to do the poll and he will see ¬_¬ _________________
-There are some serious technical challenges with getting this SDK up and running, and quite frankly they are too dangerous and time consuming. I don't think we can get the resources to muster this up.
Do you have to wrestle laser sharks to be able to make a SDK? QUICK_EDIT
I never saw the use in a KW SDK (the WB is way more usefulll for most people) and with the KW art assets I finally would have everything I ever wanted...
(if they are ever going to be relaesed, which I still doubt)
Of course, it is kinda ironic that I spend days/weeks to get some of the KW stuff work in TWA and now, less than a week after TWA is released, Apoc annouces that he will put the stuff up for download... :S
I guess it doesnt matter what Apoc does, there's allways someone who will dislike it.... _________________ QUICK_EDIT
I wouldn't be mad at this Banshee. This is proof of what every one has been saying about EALA, on the way they make and support there games. Half ass and not to much care put into it other then the money they will get.
I think its funny they said there gonna patch KW again... HAHAHAHA!!! They make me laugh!!! There not gonna patch it, Though I really wish they would. Its sad how EA can just not care that there AI doesn't work all that well. Most people probably play vs AI over on-line. So it doesn't make to much sense why they care what the 200 people who still some how care to play on-line say... They need to look more into what he casual players want. Its like what every one says. There's no money in it for them so they don't care. _________________ MadHQ's Graveyard - Click here!
(Permissions) - (F.A.Q.) QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 28 Sep 2005 Location: Mixing psilocybin in your drinks.
Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:10 pm Post subject:
I just want to kick EA right in the balls very hard for not giving EALA the proper resources to keep KW patched and to keep the RA3 beta updated. They've run from one C&C release to the next at 500 miles an hour, only stopping for dire emergencies.
They completely screwed up the economy with the first patch (and introduced dozens of balance changes nobody asked for but everyone generally approved of), it should have stayed in line with TW regardless of how many people kept crowing "BUT THIS IS MORE LIKE THE OLD C&Cs SO IT'S BETTER LOL". Why is making a new game function like an old one a good thing? To keep the fans? Why not keep the new system and rake in NEW fans? Bah! And the build radius... ugh. TW 1.05 cut out radius from the Barracks and Power Plants buildings for each faction, which was ridiculous. The ONLY thing they had to do with KW was make build radius equivalent to TW 1.04, correct bugs, allow tier-1 defenses to be built at the crane (but no higher), and work out EVERY de-synch. That's all! They went over the top and the game, balance and bug wise, is nothing like how we asked. '>_>
DCoder wrote:
Hah, serves you all right for expecting EA would care.
RA3 is getting great support so far. The fact that they're doing a pre-release public multiplayer beta, and that they're already on a 4th patch for said beta, is proof enough. _________________
[quote="DCoder"]There is no sanity left in this thread.[/quote] QUICK_EDIT
They never really wanted to do it. If they did, resource would have been allocated long ago - like it (allegedly) is for RA3.
Its all well and good saying that they have yet to see good C&C3 mods come out but the reality is that they are the cause (and problem) of that situation - the mod SDK for C&C is nothing of the kind. Its too complicated, too restrictive in what it can do and has too steep a learning curve.
The game was not designed with modding in mind, period. Its closed- house and too inaccessible for modders to care for it. The only people who can extend the game are EA themselves - but as they once quoted, you cant make money off mods, only expansion packs.
As for custom user-generated content, sorry guys but C&C has had its day. This is one big reason why the community in general is vanishing and being replaced by a swarm of kids hungry for the next patch. I look at C&C news sites these days and giggle to myself because the only stuff being posted is what EA has fed them and/or what has been posted on another site. I remember sites like Brian Bird's IncREDible Alert that were simply awesome, no site since has even come close and no site ever will. QUICK_EDIT
It does all come down to money, so unless they release the mod sdk as a puchasable program, then it is never going to happen. Would you want to play 50 bucks for the SDK? The modding community is such a small fraction of the entire gaming community, that even a 50 dollar price tag probably wont generate a large enough income. This might double or even greater increase the cost. Not only that but tech support would be a nightmare. Image some kid seeing it in the store "I can make my own game", the kid goes home and knows how to do absolutly NOTHING. The kid gets ripped off, and enough of this can cause some grief for the company.
The modding communities' sadly does not lie in the newer games, but in community and fan based projects, probably like the R3D project. _________________ Please, read the signature rules of the forum. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:31 am Post subject:
Well I though the SDK campaign was futile sadly I was right.
Sir Modsalot wrote:
RA3 is getting great support so far. The fact that they're doing a pre-release public multiplayer beta, and that they're already on a 4th patch for said beta, is proof enough.
Damn it I only downloaded patch 1.03 two days ago. After 5 hours and 8 failed downloads later I finally got it and now I have to download another 800+ Meg thanks EA _________________ Last edited by Gun Ship on Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:54 am; edited 2 times in total QUICK_EDIT
IncREDible Alert!..:C I remember those days very fondly.
as for the situation, not surprised. either way. if it was planned it would have been here already not an afterthought. _________________ Delirium.. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 28 Sep 2005 Location: Mixing psilocybin in your drinks.
Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:10 pm Post subject:
Gun Ship wrote:
Damn it I only downloaded patch 1.03 two days ago. After 5 hours and 8 failed downloads later I finally got it and now I have to download another 800+ Meg thanks EA
This is because they incorporate all changes from the previous patches into new ones. Don't ask why... _________________
[quote="DCoder"]There is no sanity left in this thread.[/quote] QUICK_EDIT
Apoc u big idiotic nub, look at TS will you? Did u see Tiberian Oddysey? or TSD? or any other isanely great mod like Twisted Insurection? Have they moved to RA2? did they move to C&C3? or ZH? Answer - no, because people love the their mods the way they are, and nothing new will change that, what the people love will no be moved by something fancy and new, because they have put alot of dedication, and time and even their lives into putting that game into what they want it to be, so big no no if the mods for C&C3 and KW that are dedicated unless the leader has decided to move the mod, it will not move, we are the people who love the game, and so we mod the game the way we want to. thank you. and again btw, we are not stupid, and ur not too, but ur acting stupid right now by ignoring the mod SDK campaign, the community demands it, ur making a big mistake if ur just gonna work on the KW SDK less, when u EA guys didnt release the mod sdk for kw recently after kw's release, the comunity even started a campaign just so we could get our hands on the sdk, and all loads of other stuff. better not ignore it for the greater good of the community, we are what makes C&C alive until today. Geez, people really have to learn from their mistakes. QUICK_EDIT
Apoc u big idiotic nub, look at TS will you? Did u see Tiberian Oddysey? or TSD? or any other isanely great mod like Twisted Insurection? Have they moved to RA2? did they move to C&C3? or ZH? Answer - no, because people love the their mods the way they are, and nothing new will change that, what the people love will no be moved by something fancy and new, because they have put alot of dedication, and time and even their lives into putting that game into what they want it to be, so big no no if the mods for C&C3 and KW that are dedicated unless the leader has decided to move the mod, it will not move, we are the people who love the game, and so we mod the game the way we want to. thank you. and again btw, we are not stupid, and ur not too, but ur acting stupid right now by ignoring the mod SDK campaign, the community demands it, ur making a big mistake if ur just gonna work on the KW SDK less, when u EA guys didnt release the mod sdk for kw recently after kw's release, the comunity even started a campaign just so we could get our hands on the sdk, and all loads of other stuff. better not ignore it for the greater good of the community, we are what makes C&C alive until today. Geez, people really have to learn from their mistakes.
sorry for double posting, but I really wanted to add this line after that fence-o-text I made, so if a mod could add this to the end of the last post, please do so, and the line I wanted to add was " Oh the corruption that is EA." QUICK_EDIT
I guess nothing else was to be expected. Video games in general have just turned in too big a business for a small group of game-lovers to develop games alone and try to satisfy those with similar interests. Of course mega-corporations like EA only accelerate these changes.
If this is the path that EALA are following, they'll just eventually destroy "their" modding communities. I don't know how much they actually care (probably not too much), but people will just move on to modding other games/franchises.
Maybe EALA will have to see the mistake at some point when their rushed style for games starts to displease even the broad public that so eagerly awaits RA3 at the moment. Maybe that won't happen and they will just go on making money.
I just pity the devs. I imagine they must go home crying when they realise what happened to their fine art that was game development.
@ The Guest: Why oh why are you typing this here. Send a hate mail to 'Apoc' or post on the EA forums...
I expected this to happen, and rightly so. TW failed for modding so a KW SDK would be wasted resources... only maybe 3 real mods would ever be completed with it. Max. QUICK_EDIT
Of course there is no connection between the work of EALA and the failure of C&C3 modding, is there?
With the attitude you suggest, they might just as well cancel any efforts/support for modding their games for all time.
Also: hate mails suck. Even more so when they land in the "company criticism"-folder (a.k.a. the recycling bin) before being read. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Of course there is no connection between the work of EALA and the failure of C&C3 modding, is there?
It's more to do with people not wanting to make the transition between "easy" modding with proprietary tools* and "hard" modding with industry tools**. Alot of people didn't transition from RA2/TS to Generals and alot of people still mod RA2/TS instead of transitioning to C&C3, EA can't do anything about that.
I like it personally, there's alot less rubbish to wade through to find the good stuff. Though at the same time there's probably less good stuff around than there otherwise would be.
*Drop files in main folder, do as little or as much as you like, use things like VXLSE for graphics.
**Have to setup the mod to actually work and compile things. You need 3dsmax and Photoshop or something similar to do graphics so you not only need to get those programs but you need to be capable of using them effectively. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Of course there is no connection between the work of EALA and the failure of C&C3 modding, is there?
With the attitude you suggest, they might just as well cancel any efforts/support for modding their games for all time.
This isnt about C&C3, its KW. If C&C3 had been easier to mod and loads of people became attracted to it then KW should have been given an SDK. That never happened, therefore KW SDK is unnecessary. QUICK_EDIT
The KW SDK might have revived the community though. Emphasis on might...
Still it makes you wonder why they try so hard to get a RA3 SDK done. It´ll probably be as inaccessible as the TW one, and seeing that I´m most likely not the only one both pissed and stubborn enough to reliably never ever touch the RA3 SDK, it makes you wonder who´s supposed to use that one then... _________________ Off Duty. QUICK_EDIT
The KW SDK might have revived the community though. Emphasis on might...
Yeah, so an SDK which is still difficult to use for an optional extra (Which costs more money) to a game which didnt have a good community anyway and is only there for a few small new logics is gonna revive the modding community? QUICK_EDIT
The KW SDK might have revived the community though. Emphasis on might...
Yeah, so an SDK which is still difficult to use for an optional extra (Which costs more money) to a game which didnt have a good community anyway and is only there for a few small new logics is gonna revive the modding community?
Yes. Numerous people planned to start modding with KW as they feared that like with Gen/ZH, the work done on modding TW would not be worth it once KW became modable.
´sides, why the hell is everyone still up on that "difficult to use" band wagon? It´s annoying having to compile every damn shit but not difficult at all once the SDK is set up properly. _________________ Off Duty. QUICK_EDIT
Yes. Numerous people planned to start modding with KW as they feared that like with Gen/ZH, the work done on modding TW would not be worth it once KW became modable.
Thats right, but the TW/KW community is allready very small. A SDK would take at least a month to be made and it would be another month before mods appear that contain a bit more than just small balancing changes.
Considering that they havent even started working in the SDK, there will only be a very very small core community left when the first KW mods appear, most casual player would have switched to RA3.
An updated WB however could be made much quicker and new maps could help to keep the TW community alive.
The updated WB might not be as usefull as a SDK, but imho its currently more inportant, simply because its a good short-term solution to keep people interested in KW... _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Actually, KW is moddable. Just that it requires a workaround since the way it works in TW doesn't work in KW. But it's doable. (Basically, you gotta do it like a patch)
I'll try doing a simple one just to show you guys. QUICK_EDIT
yes, you can change things - but without an updated SDK you cant use the new moduletags and making a patch requires you to have the orginal xml files, without them it will get pretty hard... _________________ QUICK_EDIT
C&C3 is nowhere near as closed up as you think, in fact...while making MEC2 we've found that the only major negatives are; compiling and lack of ui modding flexibility. The positives far outweigh them, mainly being that we can do a great deal of things not possible in ZH, AI editing is far better, art requires marginally more effort...but ingame looks many leagues better.
Yet...with all of that, the C&C3 modding community is essentially dead. At this point, I'm getting afraid that MEC2 will be the only total conversion released.
----------------
As a community, the C&C modding scene has far bigger problems than the lack of a KW SDK.
Look at the lack of mods for C&C3 (which, aside from a few issues...has by far the most robust support of any C&C to date)...if that continues with RA3, what rationale will EA have to continue putting effort into SDK's?
This isn't coming from a random person, since TS I've been team lead on a total conversion for every single C&C RTS. I've been in the trenches the whole time, and have to say that the future is bleak. QUICK_EDIT
The future is not in our hands, it is in EAs, and they care not as long as they make a load of money out of it. _________________ Yes, work on MV continues. It is not forgotten. QUICK_EDIT
Of course there is no connection between the work of EALA and the failure of C&C3 modding, is there?
It's more to do with people not wanting to make the transition between "easy" modding with proprietary tools* and "hard" modding with industry tools**. Alot of people didn't transition from RA2/TS to Generals and alot of people still mod RA2/TS instead of transitioning to C&C3, EA can't do anything about that.
I like it personally, there's alot less rubbish to wade through to find the good stuff. Though at the same time there's probably less good stuff around than there otherwise would be.
*Drop files in main folder, do as little or as much as you like, use things like VXLSE for graphics.
**Have to setup the mod to actually work and compile things. You need 3dsmax and Photoshop or something similar to do graphics so you not only need to get those programs but you need to be capable of using them effectively.
Maybe some people prefere working with nice looking 2d graphics than ugly 3d graphics?
Because I prefere the 2d stuff we make for TS/RA2 over the ugly Generals/C&C3 3d stuff. Must admit only C&C3 isn't that ugly, the buildings are quite nice, the main problem is C&C3's art designer, he should be tortured, near-drowned, shot, tortured again and burned. And the ashes shot at the moon. QUICK_EDIT
You cannot post new topics in this forum You can reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum You cannot attach files in this forum You can download files in this forum
The mod SDK campaign was totally ignored.
