Also Known As: evanb90 Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Location: o kawaii koto
Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:03 am Post subject:
Mine Issues
I have been experimenting with a Mine Layer dedicated to anti-tank duties.
The Mine Layer behaves perfectly, what is wrong is when the mine actually explodes. This is my code, below it is what the problem is.
Relevant RULES.ini code
Code:
MinDamage=0 ;allowed 0 damage to be inflicted?
;AT Mine
[GAMNE1] ;2 ;3 ;4 ;5
Strength=50
Explodes=no ;tried yes, change seems to have no effect
MaxDebris=0
Armor=wood
TypeImmune=yes ;useless.
FreeUnit=MNLY2 ;mine layer with 4 mines ;MNLY3;4;5;6
Primary=ATMine ;only relevant tags to the weapon of the mine.
;Anti-Tank Mine detonation
[ATMine]
Damage=500 ;kill most, cripple the rest
ROF=100
Range=1.5
Projectile=Invisible
Speed=100
Warhead=MINEAP
Report=LIMPBOM1
Anim=S_TUMU60M ;triggers death of mine
;Prevents collateral damage from harming things it shouldn't
[MINEDET]
Verses=0%,100%,0%,0%,0% ;wood is reserved exclusively for buildings only, as to only effect the mine itself.
InfDeath=1
Relevant ART.ini code
Code:
;Anti-Tank Mine explosion
[S_TUMU60M]
Image=S_TUMU22 ;is it related to image size?
Normalized=yes
Translucent=yes
Report=EXPNEW15
UseNormalLight=yes
Crater=yes
Damage=50 ;Ensures that it will kill itself.
DamageRadius=0 ;Stop the chain detonation effect?
Warhead=MINEDET ;test
The problems are:
>The mines kill infantry. (it sets them on fire too, notice the InfDeath=s of the warheads)
>The mines damage each other. (in a very slow, gradual matter too. They don't instantly die. It is like 1 HP after another are just drained away until it dies)
>The mines DON'T destroy mines anywhere but the two red tiles I indicate in the attachment.
>I couldn't even target infantry in the green squares (some times)
I have no idea what is wrong, as this is copy-paste from an earlier buildable mine which had none of these problems (obligatory chain explosion, damage against units they were supposed to do nothing on)
If this wasn't odd enough, originally, it was going to be an EMP Mine, and this idea was dropped because it was killing infantry and damaging vehicles as well as disabling them.
These are just the codes relevant to the weapon, so I can find out if I committed any blatant or obvious errors. If someone needs a more complete code so they can test this for themselves, just ask.
Thanks for the help!
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_________________ YR modder/artist, DOOM mapper, aka evanb90
Project Lead Developer, New-Star Strike (2014-)
Former Project Lead DeveloperStar Strike (2005-2012), Z-Mod (2006-2007), RA1.5 (2008-2013), The Cold War (2006-2007) QUICK_EDIT
The problems are:
>The mines kill infantry. (it sets them on fire too, notice the InfDeath=s of the warheads)
The damage done in the art.ini anim kills your infantry. TS doesn't uses the warhead which you set there, which is a known problem of the engine.
That's why you should reduce the damage to 1 and the mines hitpoints to 1 too.
EVA-251 wrote:
>The mines damage each other. (in a very slow, gradual matter too. They don't instantly die. It is like 1 HP after another are just drained away until it dies)
again a problem of the anim, not using the warhead. with the reduced damage as stated above it should work.
EVA-251 wrote:
>The mines DON'T destroy mines anywhere but the two red tiles I indicate in the attachment.
could be a too low spread value on the warhead.
But what do you actually want? A mine chainreaction or not? In the problem above you don't want them to damage each other and now you want them to destroy each other.
EVA-251 wrote:
>I couldn't even target infantry in the green squares (some times)
too low range on the weapon. Range=1.75 or 2 would be better to target the complete adjacent cell and parts of the diagonal adjacent cells around the centre one.
EVA-251 wrote:
If this wasn't odd enough, originally, it was going to be an EMP Mine, and this idea was dropped because it was killing infantry and damaging vehicles as well as disabling them.
again a result of the art.ini damage.
Another tip: don't use the weapon to destroy the target. The problem is that the explosion of the weapon is not centred on the mine but on the target, thus it is always a little bit off. That's why a mine destroying a target in the south wouldn't damage another target in the north, because the explosion is taking place in the south of the mine.
It would be better if you
-give the mine weapon a damage=1 (just to trigger the selfdestruction)
-add to the mine weapon a firing anim which you give in art.ini a high enough damage to selfdestruct the mine (e.g. an invisible muzzleflash with 10 damage)
-give the mine (the building) a new explosion anim, which you give in art.ini the final damage (e.g. a S_TUMU60 clone with 500 damage)
-make the mine passable for units by adding bib=yes to the art.ini building entry and reduce the mine weapon range to 1 (then only units get destroyed which drive over the mine, but not next to it)
This way the mine weapon would only trigger the selfdestruction and the main damage is always done by the building explosion which is always centred on the cell. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
Also Known As: evanb90 Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Location: o kawaii koto
Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:02 pm Post subject:
Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
EVA-251 wrote:
The problems are:
>The mines kill infantry. (it sets them on fire too, notice the InfDeath=s of the warheads)
The damage done in the art.ini anim kills your infantry. TS doesn't uses the warhead which you set there, which is a known problem of the engine.
That's why you should reduce the damage to 1 and the mines hitpoints to 1 too.
This means that the mines would cook off from the slightest damage taken, which would reduce their tactical value.
Also, I have noticed that it does use the warhead in some cases. I use the Nuclear Weapon tutorial posted here, and adjustments to the warhead specified for the "debris" have the desired impact on the amount of damage inflicted.
Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
EVA-251 wrote:
>The mines damage each other. (in a very slow, gradual matter too. They don't instantly die. It is like 1 HP after another are just drained away until it dies)
again a problem of the anim, not using the warhead. with the reduced damage as stated above it should work.
Would it? To be honest, I think this would cause it to just die instantly instead of gradually. (1 HP taken off, it goes boom)
Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
EVA-251 wrote:
>The mines DON'T destroy mines anywhere but the two red tiles I indicate in the attachment.
could be a too low spread value on the warhead.
But what do you actually want? A mine chainreaction or not? In the problem above you don't want them to damage each other and now you want them to destroy each other.
No, what I am saying is that its completely erratic. It makes no sense that mines in those squares get destroyed, yet if I force detonate on one of the other mines, that mine won't even get a scratch. (what I want is for them to do is not even harm each other)
Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
EVA-251 wrote:
If this wasn't odd enough, originally, it was going to be an EMP Mine, and this idea was dropped because it was killing infantry and damaging vehicles as well as disabling them.
again a result of the art.ini damage.
Another tip: don't use the weapon to destroy the target. The problem is that the explosion of the weapon is not centred on the mine but on the target, thus it is always a little bit off. That's why a mine destroying a target in the south wouldn't damage another target in the north, because the explosion is taking place in the south of the mine.
It would be better if you
-give the mine weapon a damage=1 (just to trigger the selfdestruction)
-add to the mine weapon a firing anim which you give in art.ini a high enough damage to selfdestruct the mine (e.g. an invisible muzzleflash with 10 damage)
-give the mine (the building) a new explosion anim, which you give in art.ini the final damage (e.g. a S_TUMU60 clone with 500 damage)
-make the mine passable for units by adding bib=yes to the art.ini building entry and reduce the mine weapon range to 1 (then only units get destroyed which drive over the mine, but not next to it)
This way the mine weapon would only trigger the selfdestruction and the main damage is always done by the building explosion which is always centred on the cell.
But considering what you say about the warhead problem, wouldn't this make my purpose-made anti-tank mine multi-role?
Wouldn't it also mean that the mine kills all nearby mines as well, for the same reason?
Thanks for your assistance, nevertheless. _________________ YR modder/artist, DOOM mapper, aka evanb90
Project Lead Developer, New-Star Strike (2014-)
Former Project Lead DeveloperStar Strike (2005-2012), Z-Mod (2006-2007), RA1.5 (2008-2013), The Cold War (2006-2007) QUICK_EDIT
This means that the mines would cook off from the slightest damage taken, which would reduce their tactical value.
Also, I have noticed that it does use the warhead in some cases. I use the Nuclear Weapon tutorial posted here, and adjustments to the warhead specified for the "debris" have the desired impact on the amount of damage inflicted.
Just cloak the mine to make it useful. A mine should explode by the slightest contact, which includes especially explosions from weapon fire.
Iirc does the Nuclear Weapon tutorial use the cluster missile effect and no art.ini debris.
EVA-251 wrote:
Would it? To be honest, I think this would cause it to just die instantly instead of gradually. (1 HP taken off, it goes boom)
1 damage point can't reach an adjacent cell.
The damage is halved every Spread leptons and the half of 1 is 0 in TS.
EVA-251 wrote:
No, what I am saying is that its completely erratic. It makes no sense that mines in those squares get destroyed, yet if I force detonate on one of the other mines, that mine won't even get a scratch. (what I want is for them to do is not even harm each other)
i fear that is not possible due to the art.ini warhead problem.
It would be imo a bit unrealistic anyway, if an exploding mine would damage units in the area but not other mines.
The only way i see here is to make all damage in rules.ini, by using my described method with the passable mine and a range=1 weapon. Then the exploding unit should wipe out the mine.
So you really should decide if you want
a) a mine which does area damage, thus also causes a chainreaction
b) a mine which damages only the target without causing any chainreaction
EVA-251 wrote:
But considering what you say about the warhead problem, wouldn't this make my purpose-made anti-tank mine multi-role?
Wouldn't it also mean that the mine kills all nearby mines as well, for the same reason?
Thanks for your assistance, nevertheless.
yep, the art.ini damage would make it a multi-role mine when exploding, but only a tank could trigger the explosion, because the mine weapon can't fire on infantry.
btw, in reality would a tank mine kill soldiers too.
If you don't want a chainreaction, just place them a bit further away from each other.
again, in reality you wouldn't place mines next ot each other too, to avoid chainreaction explosions. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
Also Known As: evanb90 Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Location: o kawaii koto
Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:39 pm Post subject:
Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
EVA-251 wrote:
This means that the mines would cook off from the slightest damage taken, which would reduce their tactical value.
Also, I have noticed that it does use the warhead in some cases. I use the Nuclear Weapon tutorial posted here, and adjustments to the warhead specified for the "debris" have the desired impact on the amount of damage inflicted.
Just cloak the mine to make it useful. A mine should explode by the slightest contact, which includes especially explosions from weapon fire.
Iirc does the Nuclear Weapon tutorial use the cluster missile effect and no art.ini debris.
Worm's Nuclear weapon tutorial uses debris.
Also, this isn't sound from a gameplay perspective. (mine is cloaked and I have used 1 HP mines, they were totally useless in combat)
Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
EVA-251 wrote:
No, what I am saying is that its completely erratic. It makes no sense that mines in those squares get destroyed, yet if I force detonate on one of the other mines, that mine won't even get a scratch. (what I want is for them to do is not even harm each other)
i fear that is not possible due to the art.ini warhead problem.
It would be imo a bit unrealistic anyway, if an exploding mine would damage units in the area but not other mines.
The only way i see here is to make all damage in rules.ini, by using my described method with the passable mine and a range=1 weapon. Then the exploding unit should wipe out the mine.
So you really should decide if you want
a) a mine which does area damage, thus also causes a chainreaction
b) a mine which damages only the target without causing any chainreaction
If you doubt that it is happens, I would suggest you test it for yourself. I can give you my exact code if it is needed.
Realism is something that should and needs to be backseated in face of gameplay. Realistically, a burst of MG fire cuts down 3 soldiers, in CNC, a burst of MG fire does only 15% to one guy.
Furthermore, in real life, mines are not placed so close together, but in CNC, this is necessary. Therefore, to make the mines user-friendly, they should not chain-explode.
As for your idea, I will look into it.
Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
EVA-251 wrote:
But considering what you say about the warhead problem, wouldn't this make my purpose-made anti-tank mine multi-role?
Wouldn't it also mean that the mine kills all nearby mines as well, for the same reason?
Thanks for your assistance, nevertheless.
yep, the art.ini damage would make it a multi-role mine when exploding, but only a tank could trigger the explosion, because the mine weapon can't fire on infantry.
btw, in reality would a tank mine kill soldiers too.
If you don't want a chainreaction, just place them a bit further away from each other.
again, in reality you wouldn't place mines next ot each other too, to avoid chainreaction explosions.
Don't argue realism for gameplay unless the gameplay's intent is realism.
Also, wouldn't a soldier still trigger it because of TS's Verses=? Verses=0%, 1%, 2% have no extra logic attached to them.
As for the placing, this is true, but is also user-unfriendly. _________________ YR modder/artist, DOOM mapper, aka evanb90
Project Lead Developer, New-Star Strike (2014-)
Former Project Lead DeveloperStar Strike (2005-2012), Z-Mod (2006-2007), RA1.5 (2008-2013), The Cold War (2006-2007) QUICK_EDIT
hmm, maybe you should list all things you want and which you don't want so it's easier to choose the best method.
if you want them userfriendly you should consider making them buildable and use the wall logic so you can build a complete line of mines.
Maybe it's possible to make the unit deploy into a mine then move it several cells away, deploy it again and a complete line of mines is build between the 2 deploy points.
EVA-251 wrote:
Also, this isn't sound from a gameplay perspective. (mine is cloaked and I have used 1 HP mines, they were totally useless in combat)
in combat? i thought they are for a first invisible line of defense, where you wouldn't send any of your units.
In this case you should use my passable mine method with your special not-mine-damaging warhead on a range=1 weapon.
EVA-251 wrote:
Don't argue realism for gameplay unless the gameplay's intent is realism.
Also, wouldn't a soldier still trigger it because of TS's Verses=? Verses=0%, 1%, 2% have no extra logic attached to them.
As for the placing, this is true, but is also user-unfriendly.
ok, i forget about realism.
a weapon with Verses=0%,1%,1%,1%,1% wouldn't and also can't fire on units with Armor=none.
To make really sure your mine weapon fires on vehicles only you can also add the key AV=yes to the projectile of the mine weapon. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
Also Known As: evanb90 Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Location: o kawaii koto
Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:38 am Post subject:
Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
To make really sure your mine weapon fires on vehicles only you can also add the key AV=yes to the projectile of the mine weapon.
...You're saying that bloody tag actually have a use in TS? Oh snap.
And when I said combat, I meant the mines just vanished from some weapons fire and flying debris, which isn't cool.
As for the verses, I worked on Carno's RA1.5 mod, and we had a Tank Destroyer. The problem was that we used a warhead with 0%,0%,100%,100%,0%, but it still automatically acquired and fired at infantry. (for a disappointing one damage) _________________ YR modder/artist, DOOM mapper, aka evanb90
Project Lead Developer, New-Star Strike (2014-)
Former Project Lead DeveloperStar Strike (2005-2012), Z-Mod (2006-2007), RA1.5 (2008-2013), The Cold War (2006-2007) QUICK_EDIT
To make really sure your mine weapon fires on vehicles only you can also add the key AV=yes to the projectile of the mine weapon.
...You're saying that bloody tag actually have a use in TS? Oh snap.
AV=yes makes the unit fire on vehicles only (Anti-Vehicle=yes ). However you can still give a manual attack command to fire on an infantry, but it won't do this automatically.
EVA-251 wrote:
And when I said combat, I meant the mines just vanished from some weapons fire and flying debris, which isn't cool.
And how could the player of the other side remove them if you make them immune to weapon fire?
EVA-251 wrote:
As for the verses, I worked on Carno's RA1.5 mod, and we had a Tank Destroyer. The problem was that we used a warhead with 0%,0%,100%,100%,0%, but it still automatically acquired and fired at infantry. (for a disappointing one damage)
oh sorry, you're right. 0% verses still makes the unit able to fire on the target. I always used a combination of 2 weapons (anti-inf and anti-veh) so the unit was free to choose one. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
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Mine Issues
