Joined: 18 Jun 2005 Location: Dordrecht, the Netherlands
Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:24 am Post subject:
[sarcasm]blubb, don't even think about saying something bad about USA or the US Army, because Americans are very sensitive when it comes to criticism on their own country [/sarcasm] QUICK_EDIT
People saying Using DU in tank armour is bad... it's sealed between two layers of [/i]steel and ceramic plates[/i]. The level of radiation inside a modern MBT is actually lower than the ambiet level for the planet. The rounds are kept in cases in a closed cabinet in the back of the turret. The guys who get radiation poisining are the enemy infantry stupid enough to hide in the wrecked hull of a knocked-out MBT...
DU is dangerous if you're stupid enough to eat it. If you eat tank shells you deserve to die... _________________ Yes, work on MV continues. It is not forgotten. QUICK_EDIT
The most important thing here is the effect it might have on the environment. Human life doesn't matter if we're stupid enough to blow our selves up anyway. QUICK_EDIT
Natural uranium=in the soil in low concentration, by shooting the lumps we have conglomerated aty things at high speed, hopefully we'll return it to the soil in lower concentration. in terms of danger radon (radon not radium IIRC oops) gas from decaying rock is worse. _________________ Yes, work on MV continues. It is not forgotten. QUICK_EDIT
lol @ Blubb. American culture? my God I hope you don't actually watch our TV. Its horrifyingly bad. No seriously, our TV is trash. Hollywood has no good writers either. Its like they all died or something.
Good writers all were fired en-masse after Jurassic Park's CGI. Directors realized=SHINY SHIT > Plot. And then the last writers were killed in a horrible accident with some quills and dictionaries once it was discovered that America had yet to copy Asian cinema. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 01 Feb 2007 Location: National Reference Laboratory for IPNV
Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 3:22 pm Post subject:
@Lt Albrecht:
Solids evaporate, just very slowly, as any substance (and yes they still do so at 1 atmosphere of pressure and room temperature), so just being in the presence of uranium is dangerous, though of course eating it would be stupid.
Also what you pointed about concentration is wrong, 1 part per million means 1 milligram per kilogram, which is almost nothing, however the concentration of a bullet which is mostly uranium is much much much higher, so when that round, or the rests of it, fall to the ground the concentrations would be much higher. There's no way you can decrease the concentration of uranium in the ground by adding more of it .
I haven't said anything about tank armor though, and yes I did know that it's protected by several layers of ceramic and steel. All I did was expressing my concern about the soldiers (after all they're not protected by several layers of other materials) using them and that they affect the environment permanently, even if it's in a small degree.
All I was trying to do was pointing that I don't see a real reason to use them, in this case; maybe if they were fighting a highly organized army with good equipment. Saying that it's because they want to damage the environment wouldn't make sense either, as they could be using much powerful stuff to do so, stuff that wasn't dangerous to their own soldiers. QUICK_EDIT
lol @ Blubb. American culture? my God I hope you don't actually watch our TV. Its horrifyingly bad. No seriously, our TV is trash. Hollywood has no good writers either. Its like they all died or something.
Good writers all were fired en-masse after Jurassic Park's CGI. Directors realized=SHINY SHIT > Plot. And then the last writers were killed in a horrible accident with some quills and dictionaries once it was discovered that America had yet to copy Asian cinema.
that was rather more as a joke intendet but meh
and yeah i haven't seen any movie since the mid ninetees wich would deserve a place in the hall of classics for beeing Good.
And Hamburgers are...yeah...they make fat.
And i miss the days when movies were made with good sets, handmade stuff and animatronics, rather than with CGI.
The Actors now i suppose do not play a good role nor a key role in
movies, some of them seem to be rather poor in acting quality.
I mean, terminator is a simple action/sci fi franchise, how can someone ztype up such a simple story like Terminator Selfmasturbation does?
Oh and, i didn't own a TV since a few years, because it really makes dumb. Handy advertising and such idiotic stuff just have to turn you into zombies, or live court shows, talkshows and shit.
about bad TV, i enjoy Japanese TV shows, they might be some kind of bad and cheesy, but they are enjoyable for the characters, where, on the other hand in most of Hollywoods films, the characters are so thin, i don't give a shit if they die in a big explosion, like Transformers 2...sure was a cool movie, had lots of action and i liked it, but....it didn't connect me with the characters, i couldn't care less if the whole screen explodes and every single character in the movie dies in flames. _________________ Hydraw Art on Facebook QUICK_EDIT
That's because America does a lot of things purely for money. You don't need characters and actors when you can CG some explosions and watch the cash rolling in. QUICK_EDIT
Doesn't matter if depleted uranium bullets give you three eyes or not...
It's toxic.
American soldiers get ill. Iraqi civilians get ill. UN-soldiers who used depleted uranium ammo get ill.
We even had an accident in the Netherlands a few years ago.
An Israeli plane crashed in some projects. People got the Gulf War Syndrome out of the blue.
The airplane was probably carrying clandestine depleted uranium for the IDF, and unfortunately crashed due to some insignificant reason. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 18 Jun 2005 Location: Dordrecht, the Netherlands
Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 5:39 pm Post subject:
Ixonoclast wrote:
Doesn't matter if depleted uranium bullets give you three eyes or not...
It's toxic.
American soldiers get ill. Iraqi civilians get ill. UN-soldiers who used depleted uranium ammo get ill.
We even had an accident in the Netherlands a few years ago.
An Israeli plane crashed in some projects. People got the Gulf War Syndrome out of the blue.
The airplane was probably carrying clandestine depleted uranium for the IDF, and unfortunately crashed due to some insignificant reason.
Actually, there are several large airplanes that use depleted uranium for trim weights because of its high density to small size. Boeing 747-100's used Uranium trim weights for sure, and I've even seen some high end private planes have them. DU isn't just used in weapons. It has a few uses in the medical field for X-ray shielding and shit like that too, or something like that.
What's worse? Saddam used chemical weapons on his nation's people on purpose to kill them, NATO uses DU rounds to help ensure their combatant's survivability. _________________ You come for the modding but you stay for the Crap Forum. QUICK_EDIT
Also Known As: evanb90 Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Location: o kawaii koto
Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:05 pm Post subject:
^lol.
The point is that normal bullets aren't as effective at killing tanks. DU rounds are cheaper and easier to manufacture than Tungsten-carbide rounds, which are the closest equivalents.
But yeah, I totally understand downgrading to steel-core shells and making it so it requires an entire Abrams platoon firing for a minute to destroy one Russky tank.
Also, bombs tend to cause this nasty little effect called COLLATERAL DAMAGE. I know your understanding of weapons comes from TS's Rules.ini, but this collateral damage isn't necessarily a good thing, especially when civilians are close to the target.
(As for your TS references...totally idiotic.) _________________ YR modder/artist, DOOM mapper, aka evanb90
Project Lead Developer, New-Star Strike (2014-)
Former Project Lead DeveloperStar Strike (2005-2012), Z-Mod (2006-2007), RA1.5 (2008-2013), The Cold War (2006-2007) QUICK_EDIT
Life is not a joke, if it was then it would have a meaning! Life is meaningless and pointless, aka nihilism.
Anyways, a bomb causes more collateral damage than uranium? I'm not totally sure about what kind of ammo uses uranium, but like are footsoldiers handling this shit? Again, I think they are put into a position of greater harm than the actual enemy. As for their armor peircing capabilities, can't you make explosive shells that do more damage? When you are shooting a tank, there probably won't be that many civilians loitering around it. Also, railguns. Also, Lasers. _________________ Please, read the signature rules of the forum. QUICK_EDIT
Also Known As: evanb90 Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Location: o kawaii koto
Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:58 pm Post subject:
DaFool wrote:
Anyways, a bomb causes more collateral damage than uranium? I'm not totally sure about what kind of ammo uses uranium, but like are footsoldiers handling this shit?
Uranium isn't an explosive component in these weapons. These weapons don't cause little mini-mushroom clouds like FO3 or something. Depleted uranium is used as it is self-sharpening and pyrophoric. Oh, and its also extremely dense.
Footsoldiers do not handle it; it is used for vehicle and aircraft cannons, most notably the Abrams Tank's 120mm and the A-10's 30mm.
DaFool wrote:
Again, I think they are put into a position of greater harm than the actual enemy.
Trust me, the people that should be on the receiving end of a DU round, that is, enemy tankers will be harmed much more than the effects the DU supposedly causes to the friendlies.
As in friendly MIGHT get GWS, and enemy WILL get IDS. (Instant-Death-Syndrome)
DaFool wrote:
As for their armor peircing capabilities, can't you make explosive shells that do more damage?
High explosive shells are never used for tank destruction.
DaFool wrote:
When you are shooting a tank, there probably won't be that many civilians loitering around it.
Point moot.
DaFool wrote:
Also, railguns.
Railguns will not be battlefield weapons for decades. There have been trials of railguns recently, but no nation is even close to having a railgun that could be employed on the battlefield.
DaFool wrote:
Also, Lasers.
Lasers will also not be battlefield weapons for decades. Knocking out an ICBM in boosting phase, or a small artillery shell isn't going through the thick frontal armor of a Main Battle Tank, also. _________________ YR modder/artist, DOOM mapper, aka evanb90
Project Lead Developer, New-Star Strike (2014-)
Former Project Lead DeveloperStar Strike (2005-2012), Z-Mod (2006-2007), RA1.5 (2008-2013), The Cold War (2006-2007) QUICK_EDIT
the nerd in me will always mention the experimentals. Well, my bigegst concern is the 'supposed' effects of being around the DU, radiation and what not. The collateral damage of the shell hitting something would be the radiation in mind, not an explosion. I am no expert on this matter, for all I know we mught get more radiation sun tanning. Anyways, where they are used now, in the tanks as you said, are the tanks really shooting those shells now? Are there enemy tanks still roaming around? I am pretty sure there aren't, so there really isn't an enemy on the recieving end right now (right?) So the soldiers in the tanks are being exposed to this for an extended period of time, and thus would be most prone to the effects. Hence why I feel bad for the US soldiers more than anyone else. _________________ Please, read the signature rules of the forum. QUICK_EDIT
Uh Albrecht, you get more of a radiation dose from a good day at the beach than you do handling DU for a short time.
Radiation does not work that a single radioactive particle or wave is a permanent effect. Otherwise life on this planet would not be possible thanks to that giant nuclear reactor in the sky.
Humans are very sturdy and resilient creatures by nature. (We are the dominant species ya know) Radiation affects us in severe damaging amounts predominately from long-term exposure to significantly higher amounts of radiation, or a massive dose of it at once. A human can live perfectly fine after being exposed to high levels of radiation provided it was for a short time. Conversely, low doses of truly harmful radiation (such as gamma) take a very long time to cause any significant damage.
Distance also is a major factor to radiation's effects. A tank crew firing DU rounds is much less at risk than those being directly hit by it. (The whole quick and horrific death thing from the shell's payload is ignored for the moment) Likewise, a DU fragment not yet cleaned up from the battlefield is not suddenly going to jump across a busy street to irradiate a single guy to death. (It simply does not work that way)
To see a perfect example of how resilient people are to radiation, check this guy out try being nuked twice. QUICK_EDIT
Life is not a joke, if it was then it would have a meaning! Life is meaningless and pointless, aka nihilism.
Do you even know anything? Nihilism is not the doctrine of "life is pointless." Being a nihilist ACTUALLY means that you believe values do not exist but are falsely invented. That's the true definition; though existential ones maintain life has no intrinsic value but that doesn't mean "pointless." QUICK_EDIT
ok dude, so how do you you seperate pointlessness and meaning, purpose and value? And furthermore, read a goddamn book, not a definition. Nihilism is an entire idealogy, and not something to be simply summed up in a sentence or two. Nihilism IS POINTLESSNESS. If there are no values, there is no worth, no meaning, and no purpose. Not only that, but a single word, and especially in the case of philosophy, can have many many different meanings to different people. I read Nietzsche, I have a firm understanding of Nihilism. You on the otherhand, have tunnelvision applied to a single definition. I honestly don't understand where you get off, especially in that first sentence of yours! If your gonna through around some stuff like that, actually have something to back it up! But then again, argueing with you is most likely going to be meaningless, as is everything. _________________ Please, read the signature rules of the forum. QUICK_EDIT
ok dude, so how do you you seperate pointlessness and meaning, purpose and value? And furthermore, read a goddamn book, not a definition. Nihilism is an entire idealogy, and not something to be simply summed up in a sentence or two. Nihilism IS POINTLESSNESS. If there are no values, there is no worth, no meaning, and no purpose. Not only that, but a single word, and especially in the case of philosophy, can have many many different meanings to different people. I read Nietzsche, I have a firm understanding of Nihilism. You on the otherhand, have tunnelvision applied to a single definition. I honestly don't understand where you get off, especially in that first sentence of yours! If your gonna through around some stuff like that, actually have something to back it up! But then again, argueing with you is most likely going to be meaningless, as is everything.
Go be a nihilist somewhere else. If life really has no purpose, go prove it. An ideology can still be wrong, as in the case of nihilism. Nihilist is just a fancy word for emo. QUICK_EDIT
I believe can create his own purpose. Sure this purpose is not an absolute truthy, but it's still a purpose and can give meaning. Thus nihilism is something to be overcome. _________________ Please, read the signature rules of the forum. QUICK_EDIT
There is no absolute truth. Such a thing does not, has not and never will exist. That doesn't mean lack of purpose or meaning; it just means it varies among individuals. QUICK_EDIT
This is where I have to disagree with you. There is an absolute truth, however it is beyond human perception and thus unobtainable, or atleast we cannot find them through our perceptions (for example, mathematics). _________________ Please, read the signature rules of the forum. QUICK_EDIT
Absolute truth implies there is a universal truth innate to everyone, and I do not believe that. That cannot be possible with the way humankind behaves. QUICK_EDIT
Of course you'd think that, hence Da Fool said "however it is beyond human perception".
From our scale and our view on things we of course think Humans are all different and irrational, but if ALL Humans are different and irrational then they are all the same. What we do is just make a big fuss out of everything because we don't know what or if there is a purpose. We could never accept that there is no purpose because if we did their would be no reason to live, and life craves life (because we don't know what death is), so we give everything meaning blowing things out of proportion. In the end we will never know what is true because of our eternally distorted views.
Really we should act like every other animal and just live, if only we weren't cursed with some freak mutation that leaves us unsatisfied. QUICK_EDIT
When did I say that absolute truth was innate to people? In fat, I think I said, and if not I do say now, that absolute truths are not innate, and in fact are beyond our grasp. Now, I think we have a misunderstanding in regards to the definition of the word, so when I say absolute truth, what I mean is that there is a truth out there that exists permentantly and unchangingly and indifferent to the human being. It is hence beyond our perception. _________________ Please, read the signature rules of the forum. QUICK_EDIT
Of course you'd think that, hence Da Fool said "however it is beyond human perception".
Which I don't believe anything exists in such a state. Human understanding is quite vast and even if we may not understand it now, it would almost surely be understood by future generations.
OmegaBolt wrote:
From our scale and our view on things we of course think Humans are all different and irrational, but if ALL Humans are different and irrational then they are all the same.
That's a paradox in motion. No one is the same as another; not in any cosmic sense. Similarities exist but no two people are the same. But it can be compared like this - all stars are just burning balls of gas but they're not all the same. The same applies to humankind.
DaFool wrote:
what I mean is that there is a truth out there that exists permentantly and unchangingly and indifferent to the human being. It is hence beyond our perception.
See. This is where I can't agree. Nothing is beyond human perception. We've postulated the formation of the universe, invented higher beings to create faith and spirituality, we've discovered natural, scientific, mathematical and physical laws of nature, the list goes on and on at what the human mind is capable of understanding. Maybe it's just me, but societal, scientific and mathematic progression seems to contradict something being beyond perception. Even perception itself is somewhat abstract and not an absolute.
I just don't see an absolute, unwavering "truth" anywhere at all. That idea just doesn't make sense... QUICK_EDIT
Science is built upon perception, as it begins with observation. IF the first premise of a logical progression is worng, even if the following is logical, it is all still wrong. I respect science, and it is very pragmatic. But if you say that nothing is beyond human perception, then I debunk you with the microscope! Think about it, certain things are too small to see, or to perceive, with the naked eye. So we invent tools to incrase our perception. However, you will get to a point when it will no longer be able to perceive something, an electron for example, or a photon. Or somethign ither smaller. Sight is just perception that passes through the eyes. I kinda want to go play KW now, so I will leave this for later.
Mathematics holds a special place in my heart. 2+2 will always equal 4 and so on and so forth. Is mathematics ever waivering? I would say that mathematics in itself may beyond perception.
Finally, in response to your response of Omega, what he is describing are essential properties. A human must have a set of essential properties in order to be considered a human, correct? If all humans are different, why can't we consider an elephant a human? It's different. Thus the groundwork must be laid down for essential properties in which we can define what is human. So your choices are kinda wide open right here, from a certain DNA range to rationality to emotion so on and so forth. _________________ Please, read the signature rules of the forum. QUICK_EDIT
DU rounds to an age old philosophical mumbo jumbo that predates Aristotle, what a weird subject jump. _________________ You come for the modding but you stay for the Crap Forum. QUICK_EDIT
I know, but its just that we went from a weapon designed to ensure maximum kill ratio against armored vehicles and harden targets to some form of meaning in life itself. There is a word for that somewhere... _________________ You come for the modding but you stay for the Crap Forum. QUICK_EDIT
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[/sarcasm]
oops) gas from decaying rock is worse.
.
I died.
