Tragic Heroes

DaFool · Defense Minister **Joined**: 07 Nov 2006

Heres something to hink about: Has the tragic hero of the literary past returned in modern day cinema as the common villian?

Why it might be hard to think that the heroes are now the villians, focus more on the tragic part, where the heroes were overcome by a fatal flaw that led to their downfall. I see this happen to villians in movies all the time. Consider, the villian gets himself into a position of power, yet because of some kind of character flaw they have, the hero of the film is able to exploit this and emerge victorious. Now I think I can see why this has come to pass: a combination of the want to keep literary traditions (which explains their presence) and then the (and I'm gonna call it) American style of movies where the good guys have to emerge victorious.

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Team SomeGuy · General **Joined**: 18 Aug 2006

Considering the classic villain archetype has literally been done to death and back (It can really only be used in kids works) it seems that way because writers are diverging their paths and looking for new ways to make a villain.

Also considering the vast number of places you can find the Evil Overlord List is it no surprise writers want to avoid the cliched villains of old?

Besides when done well, a well-intentioned villain (tragic hero?), my country right or wrong, or other more human/realistic types can garner their own fandoms and make a work very notable.

Orac · Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:01 am Post subject:

There are many of the villains of which you speak in film, DaFool. However, my personal favourites are the villains who see themselves as heroes - doing what they think is right, whatever the cost. The villains who believe that they are building a better world.

AltomareXD · General **Joined**: 22 May 2008

Like Kane.

Orac · Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:14 am Post subject:

I was thinking more of the Operative in Serenity, but Kane works too #Tongue

Ixonoclast · Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 10:34 am Post subject:

If you think Kane really believes in the bullshit he says, UR DOING IT WRONG.

Kane believes in himself and his own plan. He's the quintessential oldschool selfish baddie, he just acts like an enlightened messiah.

People who say that Kane has transformed from a shrewd mercenary to a pompous Messiah don't pay attention to the story.

AltomareXD · General **Joined**: 22 May 2008

Woah. Almost derailed the thread with Kane. Let's see another perspective. If you ever read DC comics, then you probably heard about the Blackest Night.

For no "WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!?" moments, it's like this: a group calling themselves the Black Lanterns oppose the other 7 color themed corps (including the Green Lanterns) and try to create peace within the universe by killing everybody them making the dead wear black rings.

They are the bad guys but not according to them. I think this is something which can break that trend; evil has a chance to see the world they dreamed of. Though this would not imply the good guys lose, but this kind of story is something to look forward to. A gradual shift in power, tipping like a see-saw.

DaFool · Defense Minister **Joined**: 07 Nov 2006

Well in particular I was thinking of the character who should win, but doesn't because of a flaw on their part. When you think of why Kane doesn't win (atleast in the GDI campaigns) it's because you fry him with an ion cannon, not really a fault of his own.

I saw the movie Gamer on Saturday, and the villian in the story basically could have emerged victorious but did not because he was like a cat who wanted to play with his prey.

I'm not really forming a pro or anti opinion on it, I am just trying to make the observation that the tragic hero archetype has been transformed in the modern era to the role of the villain. Like the list that someguy linked to, villains nowadays have alot of flaws that lead to their demise. It's not so much that the hero outsmarts the villain but rather exploits their mistakes.

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Ixonoclast · Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:01 pm Post subject:

You have to account for the influence of the modern media.

When we watch the news, we hear so many opinions on politicians and organisations.

We all know that everything can be seen from multiple sides. A Palestinian insurgent fights for freedom. A Israeli IDF soldier fights for... freedom.

We can only consider few individuals truly evil... most dictators and other "villains" can be considered misguided, egoistic or paranoid.

Our modern heroes and villains reflect that. Heroes don't stay clean, and villains might do good, or have redeeming factors.