Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:15 pm Post subject:
Command and Conquer 4 Updates
The official Command and Conquer site just got an upgrade (http://www.commandandconquer.com/) and features new screen shots, videos, blah blah.
Theres a developer's blog which mentions something....but I forgot about it . The only other thing interesting is that I got an email saying that the fans can name a new mutant unit which right now is codenamed "Gorilla".
Heres a pic _________________ Please, read the signature rules of the forum. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 01 Feb 2007 Location: National Reference Laboratory for IPNV
Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:13 pm Post subject:
That Gorilla looks quite similar to what I have intended for the new Golem I'm making for RoO (still far from done), though lower tech, and made from scrap .
Looks nice, but I'm somewhat troubled by this. QUICK_EDIT
the flamethrower has more of a gorilla-face...
and that forgotten thinggy looks like the shredder in WCIII _________________ just a simple logo by bricks @ raminator, on Flickr QUICK_EDIT
Uhh, why in hells name would you be able to train one of those and at least control it?
Hey it's C&C, the game which introduced weaponised animals to the RTS genre. Anything's possible.
I for one wouldn't mind an actual gorrilla as a playable unit. It'd be fun, and why would I facepalm anyway... there's loads of other things I'd already be busy facepalming at, like the Flame Tank design, or the super-gigantic mech-sized attack bikes, etc. _________________
The white lady~! QUICK_EDIT
Not in the Tiberian series, least of all MUTATED gorillas. Psychicly controlled gorillas on the other hand would be fine in RA2+ (though not a good unit IMO). QUICK_EDIT
Well the game takes a lot of liberties. How'd you think the Scrin "controlled" the mutants trained from the C&C 3 Hovel? And assuming they did have some form of control like that, why didn't they weaponise it in warfare? At least Yuri exploited his psychic control technologies to the fullest.
This really is a case where realism can take a backseat. Goodness knows, realism's taken heaps of backseats in RTS games anyway. _________________
The white lady~! QUICK_EDIT
Uhh what do you mean "control" the Mutants from the Hovel? They're just mercenaries. Your assuming they wouldnt fight for the Scrin, when I don't see why they wouldnt. You could say they wouldnt fight for Nod because Nod spread Tiberium or they wouldnt fight for GDI because they didnt save them.
Besides that the Scrin had the Mastermind (or whatever it was called) hero & cultists, which could mind control... so they DID weaponise a form of control. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 18 Jun 2005 Location: Dordrecht, the Netherlands
Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:23 pm Post subject:
What is it with ppl bitching about the smallest things lately? If you go that way, I want to know why a stupid laser can be set to do major damage to vehicles, but small damage to infantry? I mean, lasers should do equal damage to everything?
Arf, really, get a life or something instead of bitching about details -.-" QUICK_EDIT
Yeah they're just mercenaries but that doesn't mean they'd willingly fight for an invading race that would sooner or later wipe the mutants out too...... logically they'd fight for themselves, unless you can imagine a logical scenario where the Scrin bribe them with cookies and a healthcare plan?
Plus, if you really wanna force logic into the thing, why would they use Cultists to control the mutants if they can just use those head-bug-things directly on the mutant heads (we know they're not doing that because the mutants have no head-insects if you play Scrin and secure a Hovel), and why would they invest dozens of Masterminds (each can only mind control one unit) into just controlling one hovel's worth of mutant inhabitants? It just doesn't make sense.
So, in the end, we really shouldn't try to force logic if logic is subverted for the sake of gameplay. The MCV is neither relaistic nor logical. Nor is the Avatar, nor a dozen other units in the C&C ensemble. But we all just accept that because it's for the sake of gameplay, rather than nitpicking and asking stuff like why doesn't Nod just stealth all their vehicles but only stealth the fragile, light missile-firing ones, etc. _________________
The white lady~! QUICK_EDIT
Uhm, well, clearly the Mutants dont fight just for themselves so logcally they'd fight for the Scrin as well. It's entirely possible, given the circumstances.
Being able to "hire" mutated gorillas on the other hand is silly. Mechanical unit makes much more sense... I'd also like to point out nobody is talking about realism. I was simply saying being able to train a 6-eyed-tiberium-super-ape would be stupid. QUICK_EDIT
Like I said earlier, the Scrin are the enemy of everyone on Earth, why would the Mutants wanna side with an alien faction hellbent on eliminating them? It's like helping a guy you fully well know is gonna kill you eventually anyway. If the Forgotten actually are ok with that I think the Tiberium mutated a ton of stupid into their minds.
What circumstances are you speaking of? Was there even any hint in the game that the Scrin struck a deal with the mutants? Why would they even do that? What do they stand to gain that they can't already take by sheer force? Remember the issue here is trying to make sense of why the Scrin would be able to recruit mutants to fight for them, when EA clearly implemented it as simply a gameplay thing rather than something with a deeper meaning behind it... _________________
The white lady~! QUICK_EDIT
I dont think there needs to be a "deal". There is no "deal" between Nod and GDI, which clearly means they'll fight for anyone. I'm not saying there is any bigger story attached.
In reality, we dont know what the Scrin truely want. I don't see why it would be purely to destroy everyone on Earth. The Mutants could feel some connection because they are both heavily involved with Tiberium. They clearly dont feel any connection between themselves and the rest of the world, besides that they've been "forgotten". Why would they fight for anyone then? The fact they DO fight means they either fight for anyone, or have their own reasons to fight for each faction.
I dont believe though that there is a "forgotten" faction as a whole, rather Mutants just live in colonies largely unconnected. Some might like Scrin, some might like Nod and some GDI. I dont think there is some overall consensus on who they're in allegiance with. QUICK_EDIT
Yes we did know what they wanted: they were here to harvest Tiberium, and simply regarded the indigenous life as pests to swat away.
If you want to talk about logical sense, it would make more sense for mercenaries to fight alongside someone that offers them something. Why? Because that's what mercenaries do, they don't fight for free or fight purely for the sake of fighting (that'd be really sad lives), they're in it for the money or for some incentive.
It'd be more plausible to imagine GDI or Nod did recruit mercenaries like that, rather than the Scrin who so far were shown to indiscriminately mow down everyone in their path. _________________
The white lady~! QUICK_EDIT
it would make more sense for mercenaries to fight alongside someone that offers them something. Why? Because that's what mercenaries do, they don't fight for free or fight purely for the sake of fighting (that'd be really sad lives), they're in it for the money or for some incentive.
Uhh, well I presume when you buy the Mutants from the Hovel the money would go to them. And besides that the Scrin are clearly wiping out GDI and Nod, which some Mutants would surely want. Judging from TS and the TW unit voices the Mutants are very angry people, specifically towards the blunts. A new Tiberium based race would just be "oh, more?".
Valdez wrote:
It'd be more plausible to imagine GDI or Nod did recruit mercenaries like that, rather than the Scrin who so far were shown to indiscriminately mow down everyone in their path.
I dont believe we heard anything about Mutants vs Scrin. QUICK_EDIT
well I presume when you buy the Mutants from the Hovel the money would go to them.
That's gameplay. We (or at least me) are still on the realism-logic train.
OmegaBolt wrote:
the Scrin are clearly wiping out GDI and Nod, which some Mutants would surely want
The Scrin are wiping out everyone as I mentioned, and as the FMVs indicated. You could say that the FMVs never explicitly showed the Forgotten being killed in Scrin attacks like everyone else, but then I could also argue a whole lot of other non-explicit stuff, like maybe Slavik is alive and Kane got the wrong information and we never saw Slavik die in person on screen, etc.
And again, it's not about your enemies dying here, it's about you dying too. Sort of like a meteor coming to wipe out all life on Earth, would that make the Forgotten happy because it kills them but also snuffs out GDI and Nod? Really though it's so much easier to just accept that the Hovel is a gameplay thing, not meant to be realistic or logical in a 100% kind of manner... _________________
The white lady~! QUICK_EDIT
And what makes it only gameplay? If the game used power points instead of money it would be gameplay only, but it doesnt (unless of course the power points were some of kind of fuel used in the future, and the Mutants needed them to keep their own generators and warmachines working etc).
Hmm... I could actually say that money IS reality in C&C. I mean in TD Seth says on your.. first (?) mission that there should be plentiful Tiberium to harvest for resources to buy your army.
Valdez wrote:
The Scrin are wiping out everyone as I mentioned, and as the FMVs indicated. You could say that the FMVs never explicitly showed the Forgotten being killed in Scrin attacks like everyone else, but then I could also argue a whole lot of other non-explicit stuff, like maybe Slavik is alive and Kane got the wrong information and we never saw Slavik die in person on screen, etc.
Well you couldnt argue that because in KW it states Slavik was killed. Even then you could say he is secretly alive if you wanted, just like people believe Elvis is alive.
Valdez wrote:
And again, it's not about your enemies dying here, it's about you dying too. Sort of like a meteor coming to wipe out all life on Earth, would that make the Forgotten happy because it kills them but also snuffs out GDI and Nod?
No evidence for this bit. However if the Mutants are contracted by the Scrin then they certainly wouldnt be killed while doing their jobs. Heck, maybe thats your reason why they might fight for Scrin, to try desperately to save themselves?
Valdez wrote:
Really though it's so much easier to just accept that the Hovel is a gameplay thing, not meant to be realistic or logical in a 100% kind of manner...
I never said it was. Your arguing with yourself it seems. QUICK_EDIT
I'm not saying make it only gameplay, I'm saying it doesn't have to be 100% logical or realistic, and it doesn't have to absolutely make sense. Nobody's ever debated on why the units never run out of fuel or ammo, or why the soldiers don't need food or sleep in-game, or why tanks like the Scorpion Tank design is an epic fail by realistic military standards etc.
Rather than try to force some logical explanation into an otherwise illogical thing it's better to just accept that gameplay > realism and it's ok for there to be something that's illogical (like an MCV that morphs into a conyard) as long as it's not omgwtfbbq illogical (conyard appearing out of thin air in a puff of smoke).
As for evidence on the mutants issue, it's impossible to debate properly because there is a severe lack of concrete info. I have no proof from the FMVs to explicitly disprove you, but neither do you have nay material you can use to disprove me. The way things work in gameplay does not constitute "proof" of logical sense, unless you honestly believe 1 engineer can repair a bridge realistically just 'cos the game does it like that.
OmegaBolt wrote:
Your arguing with yourself it seems.
No I was arguing with your claim that it's "logical" for a bunch of mutants to want to fight on the side of an invading alien race that would probably incinerate them upon first contact. _________________
The white lady~! Last edited by Valdez on Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:56 pm; edited 1 time in total QUICK_EDIT
I dunno if you ever played TWA, I think in one of the newer releases, Stygs stuck the Tiberian Fiend into the Hovel as a buildable unit, and it didn't bother me all that much. IIRC, the Forgotten Mod also has Fiends as controllable units. Again if you use the argument of "trained animal" it could be argued that the monkeys you get are pre-trained monkeys already conditioned to do their job, like guard dogs in real life.
'sides, said monkeys could make for good melee attackers, like the Brute in UAW. _________________
The white lady~! QUICK_EDIT
Jesus, then I also said, if you'd read, that trained animals is Red Alert exclusive. Just because it didnt bother you, doesnt mean it doesnt bother me, and it is my opinion. Opinions shouldnt have to lead to such pointless arguments, when noones mind is going to change. QUICK_EDIT
Also Known As: evanb90 Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Location: o kawaii koto
Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:23 pm Post subject:
Lol @ the nitpicking over Ickus' joke.
Also, CNC and logic, especially in the military area...totally laughable.
Battlefield factories, aircraft AND munition factories, ship yards, massive one-use only mobile construction centers, battlefield power-plants (not generators, but full-fledged power plants), on-site nuclear reactors and missile silos. Oh, and lets throw in a control center that can interface with an orbiting energy weapon satellite. _________________ YR modder/artist, DOOM mapper, aka evanb90
Project Lead Developer, New-Star Strike (2014-)
Former Project Lead DeveloperStar Strike (2005-2012), Z-Mod (2006-2007), RA1.5 (2008-2013), The Cold War (2006-2007) QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 13 Jan 2007 Location: Netherlands! Banned: 3 times
Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:21 pm Post subject:
Yeah, that is really cheap and stupid to use that as an argument...
Since when are mutants allied with the Scrin? That'd be the same as Europe allying with Hitler, or Australia with the Soviets. It makes no sense story like. Attack Dogs etc are exlusive to RA, plus they do not impact the story. The story should be logical, and the units etc should be logical to some point. _________________ ☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭
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I never said allied with, but theyre also definately not allied with GDI or Nod. Also some of Europe was allied with Hitler, Italy, just like some of the Mutants will be on the side of any of the three factions IMO. QUICK_EDIT
Not really. The devs are more than free to adapt any thing that initially started in a RA game. Look at capturable civilian structures, that debuted in RA2 and we have them in Generals and C&C 3. Mind-control debuted in RA2 as well, and the Scrin used it. There really is no law that says something that belongs to Red Alert can only belong in Red Alert, unless it's strict canon elements like the Chronosphere or Premier Romanov that obviously cannot go into other universes without continuity issues. Trained animals is a very loose, general term, like Riflemen, or Tanks. _________________
The white lady~! QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 13 Jan 2007 Location: Netherlands! Banned: 3 times
Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:22 am Post subject:
Yes, but Italy etc allied with Germany to be save, they wanted to gain something for it. The Scrin however, are nothing more then raging murderers (as far as we know, EA could of course change the story drastically, like they've done a 1000 times). So would you ally with someone who wants to kill you? That makes no sense story wise. So, if the mutants are allied with the Scrin, they need to drastically alter the story, yet again... _________________ ☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭☭
Become one with your heart's desire:
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Oh yeah, there are going to be "pre-built bases and out posts" scattered through out maps. I wonder what this means?
1)Will the player get these immediatly to control?
2)Will they be more or less capturable tech structures?
3)Will they just be eye candy?
4)Will they be 'creeps'/ai people who occupy the map and shoot at you? (Forgotten?) _________________ Please, read the signature rules of the forum. QUICK_EDIT
4)Will they be 'creeps'/ai people who occupy the map and shoot at you? (Forgotten?)
But then Forgotten will forgotten the map and will never shoot at you because the forgot who you are. That's why they called Forgotten because their brain are in a mess- _________________ Can you hide from me ? QUICK_EDIT
Oh yeah, there are going to be "pre-built bases and out posts" scattered through out maps. I wonder what this means?
It's another way of saying capturable civilian buildings like tiberium spikes or defense towers are in the game. _________________
The white lady~! QUICK_EDIT
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Command and Conquer 4 Updates
. The only other thing interesting is that I got an email saying that the fans can name a new mutant unit which right now is codenamed "Gorilla".
.
