Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:05 pm Post subject:
What makes a good multi-player map?
This has more than likely been said, but I have seen maps online and to be honest i am not impressed with 95% of them. I had somewhere a person who wrote something and one of his points that a good map takes about 10 hours to make. In my opinion 10 hours is not a good length of time. My thoughts on a good map:
1] Size - Despite people saying no.... a map that is 200 by 200 works fine for 2-5 players. A smaller map can be tough, but its like you sneeze and your hitting the enemies base. With a small map you spend all your time making walls and pillboxes and that gets boring.
2] Cash - I am not a big fan of the whole ore deal, so I took out the refinery and changed it to Oil Derricks. Though the amount of cash received needs to be tweaked a bit. Oil derrick have been added and the refinery is completely gone, unlike Blitzkrieg I where you had to make the refinery anyway.
3] Sound - adding sounds of traffic and birds to the map isn't needed, but it adds something to the map.
4] Civilian units - having civilian cars running around a map is just eye candy, but this just gives the map something special. Having Civilians (people) walking around is something that makes a city map look better. Allowing them to attack anyone is good too. Some people have said it is annoying, but if you are running around occupying a city let them fight back.
5] Style - I prefer making city style maps. It gives you buildings to occupy to help defend your base. The whole jungle style or hill terrain doesn't seem to cut it. It is just like playing on a small map you build defense most of the time. I am not saying jungle/desert style maps aren't fun to play, as long as they are built right.
6] Height - some have said having hills and height variation in a map is the best, but I disagree. Yes having cliffs and height change in a map is good, but as long as its not all hills. The map has to be done right.
7] Choke points - Choke points are fine, but once again they have to be done right.
8] Civilian Tech - Some say that too much cash on a map is bad. Since I don't use ore thats not a problem for building, changing the amount of cash received from a civilian oil derrick and the time it gives it help balance the game. If you have a 4 player map make 4 hospitals, machine shop, air ports. Spread them out so everyone has a chance to get them. Like Mental Omega I have somehow turned off the ability to build base items near any of these. It helps keep a human player from expanding their base and over powering the AI.
9] Super Weapons - If you are playing Vanilla RA/Yuri, I found that by giving everyone the ability to have all SW it can be a challenge.
10] Landscape - Placing water on a map if fine, but don't put so much that you can't expand or too little that it creates a choke point to easily pick off the enemy or vice versa the enemy can't pick off you. If you use water, make more than one path to follow. Trees, lights, park benches, etc. Give any map a more realistic look.
11] Balance - don't give one side the cherry side to have. Meaning the best place to defend. If they have all the resources and the best place to defend it just becomes boring.
12] Tunnels - though I have not gotten tunnels to work properly in any of my maps, these can add something to the game. I read once the AI won't use them, but recently I was told they could. If they can, throw a few in there.
13] Staring point placement/players - unless you plan to have 2 spots always allies, then spread them out. I feel 5 player map is the best. When placing starting points on a map don't place them to far in the corners or too close to edge of the map. Place them in spots where if the enemy has a chance to out flank you (means try to come around and attack you from behind).
14] Trains - I guess these could have been placed under Civilian units, but having trains run around a map is eye candy, gives that map something special.
15] Finally: Time - A good map should take you a few days. You don't think so? Build a map, test it, tweak it. If the AI (or player] can come rushing through throw some obstacles up and vice versa if you can bum rush the enemy like a hot knife though butter it's not fun just lame. A map done in 5 hours will probably be useless....Unless you are someone like MigEater, take your time. If you spend 5 hours making a map it will show.
If you create your own mod:
1] AI - Some say it is hard to make the perfect AI, but I think I have a tough one and I am still working to make it better. If you use DCoder's Ai Editor it can make playing any map a challenge.
2] Weapons - Tesla coils and prism towers are fine, but I prefer to have a good conventional war. Having a laser shoot and destroy a tank with one shot is kinda lame. If you think its not, let me introduce you to my sniper with a range of 75 that fires a 55 grain, 5.56mm, full metal jacket round with nuclear tip.
3] Vehicles - same as weapons...be realistic, a tank that has a range of 20 (unless MLRS) and a damage of 600 is out of hand.
Now the debate begins, lets hear your thoughts. _________________ I am authorized to send out the TMP Studio, PM ME IF YOU WANT IT And check this out, these were sent to me for help with terrain and zdata help along with TMP Studio/Builder
Aro made an OK map in two hours. Time has nothing to do with it. Once you get to a certain level of skill there is no need to take days at it, by then you'll know what works and what doesn't. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 26 Nov 2002 Location: Algae Colony On Mars
Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:49 am Post subject:
Size isn't everything with maps. To be honest, if somebody makes a 200x200 masterpiece then most of the map will never actually be explored. Places end up being a point of conflict for three reasons: if they're the location of a base, if they're between two bases and if there are resources there to be fought over. If your map has places without these then it's just aimless eyecandy.
I have (had, not really in the map-making business any more) a few rules of thumb when mapping really:
Bases should have between 120-180 degrees open and undefended by natural barriers (i.e. cliffs, trees, water) which usually equates to 3 entrances.
Tiberium should be easily accessible at the start but for mid-game it should be constantly fought over. The best example of this is Tiberium Garden Redux.
Whatever one side gets, the other should get (i.e. neither should get tiberium veins, tech structures, gems/blue tiberium in excessive quantities).
Cities are nice but if people make them they should be abandoned/damaged/messy or populated/tidy, not in between.
No excess of one terrain type (with the exception of pavement in built-up areas) otherwise it looks drab and plain.
Techn structures are a luxury, not a necessity. They should be sparingly used and fought over rather than littered across the terrain.
Always do coastlines manually. It looks nicer and you can add so much variation it hurts.
Tunnels should always go somewhere, hopefully with an associated risk. If you have fog of war and bridges then it can always be a surprise going through tunnels, you never know what's at the other side and there's nothing you can do until you're at the end.
There's probably more but I can't think right now but I don't agree with a fair bit of what you say. Plus, making a map in less than a day is easy. It just depends how big a map it is. A nice little 1v1 can be done in 3-4 hours as long as you know what you're doing. _________________
Quote:
This is sexier than what this forum was supposed to tolerate. - Banshee
Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:16 pm Post subject:
Map
Well, from what I have seen of Aro's work he could be another, like MIgEater, could be an exception to the rule of how long it takes to make a map.
I feel size does matter because like I said you sneeze and you hit the enemies base.
A map that is built in 3-4 hours would probably be a small map. Not a big fan of 1 vs 1, I like playing against 3 or 4 computer players. But everyone has their favorite ways to play.
The idea of techs being a luxury, yeah I can see your point. My AI tries to capture everything in their view and even near my base. I have been working on getting them to build more bases near the techs they have captured.
I've had battles that last about 2 hours. I have been on the brink of being wiped out and some how I managed to survive. Sometimes the AI has captured my buildings and all I am left with is barracks and forces me to concentrate on defense until I can "find" a MCV to start over.
My opinion about what a map needs is my own. Not knocking either of you two for you posts. Everyone has their own "style" of game play.
So Orca or Clazzy you have links to any maps that are public? I'd like to check them out. _________________ I am authorized to send out the TMP Studio, PM ME IF YOU WANT IT And check this out, these were sent to me for help with terrain and zdata help along with TMP Studio/Builder
Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:49 pm Post subject:
maps
Yeah....um....no....like i said 95% of the maps I've seen are lame. Everyone has their choice of what maps they like and nothing I have seen so far imprersses me... Most maps I've seen look like some just threw some random pieces and said "here, i made a map." or they made a jungle... wow no skill there...a clearing here, a clearing there and some trees in the middle.
You got any maps M7? lets see a screen shot if you do. What kinda of maps do you prefer?
EDIT: Not looking for maps to play, just want to see what kind of ideas people have, maybe their skills.
Westwood knew that? Yeah, ummm....no comment _________________ I am authorized to send out the TMP Studio, PM ME IF YOU WANT IT And check this out, these were sent to me for help with terrain and zdata help along with TMP Studio/Builder
Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:59 pm Post subject:
map
OmegaBolt wrote:
Quote:
What makes a good multi-player map?
A good mapper.
No kidding, lol.....I've just seen maps posted up from a few sites that I'm thinking why? I am starting to think that the quality of map makers have gone done hill. It seems that every one who downloads the FA2 Map Editor had no imagination. _________________ I am authorized to send out the TMP Studio, PM ME IF YOU WANT IT And check this out, these were sent to me for help with terrain and zdata help along with TMP Studio/Builder
Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 3:04 am Post subject:
maps
well, i have been shown some of your work and it shows you have some skill _________________ I am authorized to send out the TMP Studio, PM ME IF YOU WANT IT And check this out, these were sent to me for help with terrain and zdata help along with TMP Studio/Builder
if theres a battle going on, why would the civilians just be walking around? Shouldn't they be off hiding in basements and whatnot? Same with cars driving around.
As for one side having the 'cherry' side, sometimes that adds an interesting factor to a map, like making a 2vs1.
I think alot of factors can be played around with and there isn't really a right and wrong for mapping. Certain maps examplify certain styles of play. Some people like defensive battles, and so would like a map with a lot of choke points. Some like big tank battles, and they would have maps with a more open design. Want navy? Lots of water, you get the picture. I mean, if you want a loosely defined 'best' type of map, I guess that would be the jack of all trades map, one that can support a wide variety of play types. _________________ Please, read the signature rules of the forum. QUICK_EDIT
I've played better-balanced WW maps over the things in the public. And I'm not talking about the shitty ones either.
Just going through PPM's map archive, I found 10 maps on the first two pages that are good fun maps to play. This does account for me ignoring Revora's map forum, Freedom's small map collection, RADEN, and a few other places I get my maps from. There's also the RA2 quickmatch map pack that can be used too. Of course, it seems like you only look for terribly done maps and have no regard for taste.
And before you make demands with me, let's see your skill in a mapping program.
EDIT: And the best YR map is Bay of Pigs. Hands down. QUICK_EDIT
I think alot of factors can be played around with and there isn't really a right and wrong for mapping. Certain maps examplify certain styles of play. Some people like defensive battles, and so would like a map with a lot of choke points. Some like big tank battles, and they would have maps with a more open design. Want navy? Lots of water, you get the picture. I mean, if you want a loosely defined 'best' type of map, I guess that would be the jack of all trades map, one that can support a wide variety of play types.
Wise Words.
anyways on to the topic starter...
really the biggest thing i disagree with you on is your cash thing. Having to go out and harvest ore and what not is a MAJOR element of the game and by taking it out you take out quite a few strategies and what not. Though occasionally it is fun to play without.
Though that doesn't mean that I don't disagree with several other things...that's just the one I feel bothers me the most.
take note of the times you said something "has to be done right". Yes in many things there is a right and a wrong way to do something. However, in art there isn't. And Mapping is, in a way, an art. The only thing that truly matters is if it's functional (and let me tell you it's pretty hard to make a multi-player map that doesn't work) and also like art there is always differing opinions on what is good and what isn't. And to be quite honest...I see no reason for a thread in which you say the majority of people's work is crap because it doesn't meet your standard of quality. Mainly because you didn't post anything showing any mapping work of your own.
also on the topic of westwood. I believe they had a fairly good idea on what a standard good map was. But they obviously had a shit ton more stuff to think about other than just "oh hey let's make a map!" it was probably more like "oh hey we finally have what should be the last set of graphics into the game and they seem to be working! now...let's turn a few quick test maps into more finished products and make several more okay maps and release this thing!" well...maybe it didn't go down like that...but you should have gotten the point.
oh and before you ask for my mapping experiences: i'm not a RA2/YR mapper but i am a TS/FS mapper...somewhat inactive for the past year or so but considering I have 25 maps out for TS/FS.
also...
Quote:
I feel size does matter because like I said you sneeze and you hit the enemies base.
if taken sexually...this is very funny... _________________ Kalistia Crestland (2)
In Soviet Russia, grass grows on tiberium! QUICK_EDIT
yeah, Westwood was in the business of making the whole game, without the luxury of dedicated mappers or community downloads which help so many RA2 and TS mods in their mapping. QUICK_EDIT
Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:13 pm Post subject:
maps
m7 wrote:
I've played better-balanced WW maps over the things in the public. And I'm not talking about the shitty ones either.
Just going through PPM's map archive, I found 10 maps on the first two pages that are good fun maps to play. This does account for me ignoring Revora's map forum, Freedom's small map collection, RADEN, and a few other places I get my maps from. There's also the RA2 quickmatch map pack that can be used too. Of course, it seems like you only look for terribly done maps and have no regard for taste.
And before you make demands with me, let's see your skill in a mapping program.
EDIT: And the best YR map is Bay of Pigs. Hands down.
I am not making any demands of you, I believe I read you have a mod of your own. I was just looking for a cool map for when I take a break of making my own.
As for my maps, I can't release any of them because if you have seen some of my posts I have been working on new terrain items which are in my maps.
I basically have 3 maps that I like for multi-player. I have made and deleted them a few times because I was not happy with the way they looked or played. I have about 12 others that I need to rework.
I have 15 single player maps for a campaign I have been working on, I plan to convert these to Multi-player maps when I am done.
I plan to have a video to show off new terrain items 2 of these maps will show 2 of my maps that I made.
Edit: As for civilians running around the map, some civilians don't run in fear. Some know how to stand their ground. _________________ I am authorized to send out the TMP Studio, PM ME IF YOU WANT IT And check this out, these were sent to me for help with terrain and zdata help along with TMP Studio/Builder
If you want a good multiplayer map, your first concern should be balance. If one of the players is advantaged, it is simply not a good multiplayer map. Period. Things to consider are amount of ore each player has, the distance of each ore patch from the starting position, position of tech goodies, equally defendable or open position for all players, etc etc. Preferable and if you are up the job, go for a assymtrical map. Difficult to balance, but it does show creativity.
Second, you need to find a balance between a complete open map (a la Dune Patrol/Blood Fued) and a complete "camper" map (e.g. deadmans ridge), in other words: the map needs to be able to support both short and long games. Placement of cliffs are crucial here: you might want to give the players some sort of protection, but not too much. You probably also want to open up possibilities for sneak strategies, open spaces for large battles, etc etc.
Third, detailing the map also is important. Getting irritated in the middle of the game just b/c the map looks balt is something you do not want. Make smart use of hilly terrain, cliffs, stones, trees,... .
Lastly, you cannot get a perfect map right out of FA2. You will have to test it online and let others try it and let them give feedback.
A last note: everyone can design an eye appealing map, but it is alot more difficult to design infact a good map. QUICK_EDIT
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What makes a good multi-player map?
