Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 9:52 pm Post subject:
Tiberian Apocalypse: Huge wall of pics.
Subject description: A little media update thingy on Tiberian Apocalypse.
As those following Tiberian Apocalypse on ModDB may have noticed, I've recently postet a whole truck load of new screenshots. This little update here is for those who aren't following TA on ModDB.
Another TS wannabe? Looks good, but yeah, we already have TE in case you want burrowing tanks, Wolverines, Titans and MMKII into TW. _________________ Last edited by Crimsonum on Wed May 26, 2010 11:28 am; edited 1 time in total QUICK_EDIT
Oh yeah Crimsonum, TA has been in development for quite a long time over there at FS, usa. _________________ Please, read the signature rules of the forum. QUICK_EDIT
Don't like FS, nor this mod. Most of the original content is just plain and undetailed. (Or it took years to finish like the Mammoth) _________________ QUICK_EDIT
I put them in TA because I don't see a reason for why they should have disappeared 10 years later. Also the Titan and the Wolverine in TA are NOT the TS Titan and Wolverine, all that is left is the very basic shape (2 legs 2 miniguns for the Wolverine), and the Titan has now 2 guns, and a completely different leg + body setup. QUICK_EDIT
Though thinking about it, a little more High tech stuff would be nice. I remember a picture on the MDB page that was planing to put Ion Cannons on there Mk.II, and that sounds kickin! _________________ I am Zengar Zombolt, The Sword That Cleaves Evil! There is Nothing I can not Cut! QUICK_EDIT
And excuse the bluntness, but Carnius sooooo has nicer models too. That scores him points.
Crimsonum wrote:
Quote:
Tiberian Sun Rising had Wolverines, Titans and MKII into CnC3 before TE. Your point?
My point is, everybody wants to put them in TW for the sake they were in TS.
Well it does help with the consistency. I mean, when TS first came about I was kind of appalled that almost nothing in TD transitioned over to TS except the blatantly iconic stuff. It was like TS took place 300 years ahead, rather than 30 years ahead.
After all, the reason Nod had an obelisk in all games after TD was precisely because they had it in TD. Why else would the concept be retained... _________________
The white lady~! QUICK_EDIT
The transition between TD and TS is abrupt. For example, the MOST of the US Military's equipment was built in the 1980's during the Cold War. It has been upgraded and modified, but we are only now thinking about upgrading a majority of our vehicles.
The point is, transitioning equipment is a long time ordeal, this is especially true if there is no conflict going on. For instance, we haven't even considered a program to replace the M1 Abrams that was built in the 1980's (except for the FFW program, which is supposed to be ready in 2030 or something ridiculous like that)
GDI defeats Nod in 1995, and then 30 years later with no real conflict, all of a sudden they have giant mechs and hovering missile launchers in a period of less than 30 years.
RIDICULOUS
And don't get me started with the transition between TS and TW.
of course, it IS a game...and I don't think Westwood/EA has a team of military historians, so perhaps it can be overlooked. _________________ You come for the modding but you stay for the Crap Forum. QUICK_EDIT
The transition between TD and TS is abrupt. For example, the MOST of the US Military's equipment was built in the 1980's during the Cold War. It has been upgraded and modified, but we are only now thinking about upgrading a majority of our vehicles.
The point is, transitioning equipment is a long time ordeal, this is especially true if there is no conflict going on. For instance, we haven't even considered a program to replace the M1 Abrams that was built in the 1980's (except for the FFW program, which is supposed to be ready in 2030 or something ridiculous like that)
GDI defeats Nod in 1995, and then 30 years later with no real conflict, all of a sudden they have giant mechs and hovering missile launchers in a period of less than 30 years.
RIDICULOUS
And don't get me started with the transition between TS and TW.
of course, it IS a game...and I don't think Westwood/EA has a team of military historians, so perhaps it can be overlooked.
You don't need a team of military historians. Common sense dictates that the world doesn't advance by leaps and bounds within the span of 30 years. Ensemble for instance, kept that in mind when designing Halo Wars units. Westwood clearly did not.
But I guess it's a shortfall of C&C. The universe's weakest point has always been continuity. There are no recurring characters except for Kane, the only transition from one game to another is the end of one Tiberium War, only for another Tiberium War to spring up, oh and the bloody plot holes all over the place (eg. why does CABAL make you recover the Tacitus from Mutants in FS, when GDI was holding the Tacitus at that point in time)
...and ultimately the story practically screams of something that the devs are clearly making up as they go along.
One could imagine that such a rich universe really had the potential to be something that could give Mass Effect and Starcraft's fiction a run for their money. Alas, both Westwood and EA never went the extra mile for that. C&C for them basically just became a place for them to lob whatever they pleased into an established setting. GDI is gold, Nod is red, Kane is played by Joe Kucan, and everything else but the kitchen sink is free to mess with. _________________
The white lady~! QUICK_EDIT
Also Known As: evanb90 Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Location: o kawaii koto
Posted: Thu May 27, 2010 11:16 pm Post subject:
Exactly. Realistically...mechs wouldn't exist.
Warfare is all about being able to see your enemy. The sooner you see them, the sooner you can make plans to counter them. In this respect, a tall mech would have to be literally invincible or it'd get knocked down long before lower-lying units, like infantry and tanks would even be detected.
Compared to a Titan-like mech, an Abrams Tank would be as stealth as a foot-soldier is compared to an Abrams Tank.
Mechs are also much higher maintenance, especially because of their limbs.
Tank hits a mine = throws a track, isn't likely to be dangerous to the crew.
Titanish Mech hits a mine = gets knocked off feet, falls on back/face, crew could be seriously injured or killed. In addition, leg probably broke.
Which is going to be easier to haul back to a machine shop to fix, or more importantly, field repair?
Also, what's going to be easier to design and mass produce?
But leaving those rhetorical questions aside, I must say I like what's been shown so far for the mod. _________________ YR modder/artist, DOOM mapper, aka evanb90
Project Lead Developer, New-Star Strike (2014-)
Former Project Lead DeveloperStar Strike (2005-2012), Z-Mod (2006-2007), RA1.5 (2008-2013), The Cold War (2006-2007) QUICK_EDIT
You don't need a team of military historians. Common sense dictates that the world doesn't advance by leaps and bounds within the span of 30 years. Ensemble for instance, kept that in mind when designing Halo Wars units. Westwood clearly did not.
But I guess it's a shortfall of C&C. The universe's weakest point has always been continuity. There are no recurring characters except for Kane, the only transition from one game to another is the end of one Tiberium War, only for another Tiberium War to spring up, oh and the bloody plot holes all over the place (eg. why does CABAL make you recover the Tacitus from Mutants in FS, when GDI was holding the Tacitus at that point in time)
...and ultimately the story practically screams of something that the devs are clearly making up as they go along.
One could imagine that such a rich universe really had the potential to be something that could give Mass Effect and Starcraft's fiction a run for their money. Alas, both Westwood and EA never went the extra mile for that. C&C for them basically just became a place for them to lob whatever they pleased into an established setting. GDI is gold, Nod is red, Kane is played by Joe Kucan, and everything else but the kitchen sink is free to mess with.
About continuity: that is basically just saying you want the same game with new graphics *directs you towards StarCraft 2*
The plot holes, yeah, I can totally agree to that, Joe Kucan himself even ADMITTED that WW and EALA made up the story as they went along which is never a recipe for ANY success.
Also, other than Kane, although only minor, Nick "Havoc" Parker did have mention in Kane's Wrath as a symbol of GDI(or something like that, it has been awhile since I read the Intel thing on it) and was in the Campaign as a Steel Talons commander. Not sure what mission though. QUICK_EDIT
About continuity: that is basically just saying you want the same game with new graphics *directs you towards StarCraft 2*
SCII did introduce new units btw. Continuity is about striking a compromise between adding in new stuff, and keeping enough of the old stuff to give a feel of appropriate transition. TS didn't look like something that happened 30 years after TD, neither did RA2 look like a RA1 sequel (it's not enough to just throw in tesla coils and chronospheres and then expect everything to fall into place)
Continuity doesn't have to mean the same game. Units could look the same but have new abilities. Gameplay could adopt a different infrastructure like having a different tech tree, etc.
Also for all the talk about same game with new graphics, when C&C 4 came out offering something different as opposed to "just like C&C 3 with new graphics", you can see how the fans loved it...
huhnu wrote:
Also, other than Kane, although only minor, Nick "Havoc" Parker did have mention in Kane's Wrath as a symbol of GDI(or something like that, it has been awhile since I read the Intel thing on it) and was in the Campaign as a Steel Talons commander. Not sure what mission though.
That's trivial. Heck, CABAL and Paul Cortez were also mentioned in the intel database. That doesn't constitute a proper recurring character. It's just their name appearing somewhere in a wall of text that's so far detached from the storyline that you wouldn't even miss out on anything major if you skipped reading it. _________________
The white lady~! QUICK_EDIT
There is a model of a statue of Havoc in Tiberium Wars, so they at least planned to do it.
Planned to do what?
The game also had models of derelict Obelisk from renegade, TS Nod powerplant, Mammoth MK II and Titan... doesn't really say anything to me besides "in-game props" _________________
The white lady~! QUICK_EDIT
Not if you take the post-apocalyptic setting into account. Ion storms that shut down all advanced equipment, veins that sense temor and rip apart heavier vehicles, and overall a deadly and mutating crystal. The terrain is like karst landscape ravaged by Tiberium. What tanks couldn't cross, mechs and hovering vehicles, according to the fiction, would. But, EVA does make good points about the cons of mechs.
Quote:
why does CABAL make you recover the Tacitus from Mutants in FS, when GDI was holding the Tacitus at that point in time
I thought the Tacitus was first obtained by Nod/CABAL from the mutants, then CABAL along with the Tacitus was captured by GDI. I have no idea where that ancient temple came from, though.
Quote:
GDI is gold
Not even this holds true these days, lol. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Not if you take the post-apocalyptic setting into account. Ion storms that shut down all advanced equipment, veins that sense temor and rip apart heavier vehicles, and overall a deadly and mutating crystal. The terrain is like karst landscape ravaged by Tiberium. What tanks couldn't cross, mechs and hovering vehicles, according to the fiction, would. But, EVA does make good points about the cons of mechs.
The ion storms thing is a contradiction, since the hover stuff gets shut down by ion storms as well, yet a tank doesnt.
Ditto for the veins that rip apart stuff. Were Titan mechs not ripped apart by veins when they walked across?
Crimsonum wrote:
I thought the Tacitus was first obtained by Nod/CABAL from the mutants, then CABAL along with the Tacitus was captured by GDI.
GDI got the Tacitus in the very first mission of FS from the Kodiak wreckage. You might recall it was the very reason you had to escort a cargo truck in that mission.
Following then, it was presumed GDI had the Tacitus. But then surprisingly in a later Nod mission, Marzac says "...and the Tacitus, Slavik, do you deny that as well? The Tacitus is here!" after which CABAL mentions mutants stole the Tacitus from him. It really makes the sequence of events hard to follow. _________________
The white lady~! QUICK_EDIT
Didn't GDI at one point try to use Cabal to decode the tacitus, and at that point he declared war, blah blah blah?
Anyways, atleas this kid is modding the game, so what if we've seen it before. _________________ Please, read the signature rules of the forum. QUICK_EDIT
Also Known As: evanb90 Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Location: o kawaii koto
Posted: Sat May 29, 2010 5:46 pm Post subject:
Crimsonum wrote:
What tanks couldn't cross, mechs and hovering vehicles, according to the fiction, would. But, EVA does make good points about the cons of mechs.
Tanks from their onset in WWI were built to handle rough, brutal terrain (moonscape), however. If the terrain is too rough for a tank to traverse, it's very likely a mech the size/design of a Titan would find it impassable or very hazardous as well.
Hover vehicles would offer an advantage should such terrain be an issue, but as you said and the TS canon dictates, thou shalt not be in the air during an ion storm.
However, while mechs are impractical and would never exist realistically, neither would Mammoth Tank so I guess some ground needs to be given for the sake of looking pretty. An IRL Mammoth would be a big-bullseye for anything that launch a top-attack munition. (1 Javelin missile = 1 dead Mammoth) _________________ YR modder/artist, DOOM mapper, aka evanb90
Project Lead Developer, New-Star Strike (2014-)
Former Project Lead DeveloperStar Strike (2005-2012), Z-Mod (2006-2007), RA1.5 (2008-2013), The Cold War (2006-2007) QUICK_EDIT
The ion storms thing is a contradiction, since the hover stuff gets shut down by ion storms as well, yet a tank doesnt.
Ditto for the veins that rip apart stuff. Were Titan mechs not ripped apart by veins when they walked across?
Wow, I didn't even realize I contradicted myself, lol. Ideal design would be Cyborg Reaper's delicate quadruped locomotion. It remained unharmed by veins and unaffected by ion storms. Plus it was much faster than the bulky mechs.
Valdez wrote:
GDI got the Tacitus in the very first mission of FS from the Kodiak wreckage. You might recall it was the very reason you had to escort a cargo truck in that mission.
Following then, it was presumed GDI had the Tacitus. But then surprisingly in a later Nod mission, Marzac says "...and the Tacitus, Slavik, do you deny that as well? The Tacitus is here!" after which CABAL mentions mutants stole the Tacitus from him. It really makes the sequence of events hard to follow.
True that. I forgot GDI had the Tacitus from the beginning. Yeah, it is a big mess. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Why not "Whatever is latest is canon." Except that last tiberium game. In this case, TW and KW's intel database.
I don't get it.
Why would you adopt a system like that, it treats every new game like a reboot by disregarding earlier canon. And why not the last Tiberium game?
Actually screw that... given the style of C&C (no recurring characters except Kane, vast overhauls in between games), each instalment could more or less be a reboot in its own right anyway... _________________
The white lady~! QUICK_EDIT
[...]. Ideal design would be Cyborg Reaper's delicate quadruped locomotion. It remained unharmed by veins and unaffected by ion storms. Plus it was much faster than the bulky mechs.[...]
In fact military did a great deal about walkers, as with the right mechanism it would also allow to climb cliffs normally not passable for tanks. Of course 2 legged walkers would be senseless, but it turned out that if there will be walkers they will most likely be 6 legged - a principle that nature uses for millions of years with insects, allowing even the ones unable to fly to reach nearly every possible spot. QUICK_EDIT
GDI got the Tacitus in the very first mission of FS from the Kodiak wreckage. You might recall it was the very reason you had to escort a cargo truck in that mission.
Following then, it was presumed GDI had the Tacitus. But then surprisingly in a later Nod mission, Marzac says "...and the Tacitus, Slavik, do you deny that as well? The Tacitus is here!" after which CABAL mentions mutants stole the Tacitus from him. It really makes the sequence of events hard to follow.
But the Nod and GDI campaigns are independent, which is how Kane can give a heroic speech and be run through with a big spike QUICK_EDIT
They are independent in TS, but they run parallel in FS. The devs have mentioned it before.
Ju-Jin wrote:
Crimsonum wrote:
[...]. Ideal design would be Cyborg Reaper's delicate quadruped locomotion. It remained unharmed by veins and unaffected by ion storms. Plus it was much faster than the bulky mechs.[...]
In fact military did a great deal about walkers, as with the right mechanism it would also allow to climb cliffs normally not passable for tanks. Of course 2 legged walkers would be senseless, but it turned out that if there will be walkers they will most likely be 6 legged - a principle that nature uses for millions of years with insects, allowing even the ones unable to fly to reach nearly every possible spot.
Insects can climb because their legs are adapted with tiny hook-like claws, which can fit into equally tiny holes and crevices on rough surfaces.
A mech would be thousands of times bigger, the sheer difference in scale would mean you can't just make a mech that is a big version of an insect and expect it to work. _________________
The white lady~! QUICK_EDIT
[...]. Ideal design would be Cyborg Reaper's delicate quadruped locomotion. It remained unharmed by veins and unaffected by ion storms. Plus it was much faster than the bulky mechs.[...]
In fact military did a great deal about walkers, as with the right mechanism it would also allow to climb cliffs normally not passable for tanks. Of course 2 legged walkers would be senseless, but it turned out that if there will be walkers they will most likely be 6 legged - a principle that nature uses for millions of years with insects, allowing even the ones unable to fly to reach nearly every possible spot.
Insects can climb because their legs are adapted with tiny hook-like claws, which can fit into equally tiny holes and crevices on rough surfaces.
A mech would be thousands of times bigger, the sheer difference in scale would mean you can't just make a mech that is a big version of an insect and expect it to work.
I know, also flies use some other stuff to climb stuff like glass. But it doesn't change the fact that are 6 legs are way better in at least four of them finding something to hold on then less. Cut off a leg of a quadruped and it will limp, cut off a leg of a six legged and it can walk nearly as if it wasn't missing. In general the same bad stuff as for two legged things. Its the same reason heavy things have one or two spare axis, if one gets damaged, and that is more likely if its heavy, it can move on. I never said walker would take over tanks, i only said, if they would do they would be six instead of four legged. Also they never succeeded in finding a right mechanism, but the theory would work. QUICK_EDIT
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Tiberian Apocalypse: Huge wall of pics.
