Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:40 am Post subject:
Two purposes in one unit
Subject description: Your expert opinion goes here
Guys, I want to hear your opinions about this kind. Cause I am well know of starting good conversations here is new one.
Topic is two purposes in one unit. Basically what do you think, should be unit get separated to get one purpose for better usage, or this way is better?
We have few units with two purposes such as Siege Chopper, Boomer and Floating Disc.
1. Siege Chopper. We all know its advantages: fires at everything, it can act like helicopter and like artillery, it can move over water and deploy to land if needed, move over mountains and cliffs and such....
But nobody never said about its disadvantages.
I will. First off, lets no talk about its almost empty shitty machine gun. Lets say that we are going to upgrade Siege Chopper with Machine gun and cost from 1100$ to 1200$,1500$, whatever, depends of upgrades. Now if Siege Chopper from 1200$ face helicopter with same cost which fires in with machine gun only, and is all time in air, then Siege Chopper always has to loose, because he must have weaker Machine gun than that helicopter. Or weaker armor, whatever, but 1vs.1 he will lost. Because it is not logical that they have same power for same cost, and yet again Siege Chopper can deploy to land to serve as artillery. This is not logical and balanced.
My point here: Siege Chopper cannot have fully in air capabilities because of its artillery abilities. When you have mission in air only, to face with enemy helicopters or Flying saucers, Rocketeers, then you do not care about his artillery abilities cause it wont help you in air. Then you care about its machine gun and his cost for anti air firepower. Anyway, you must build more of them in order to counter enemy aircraft, and spent more money for this task. Same happens if you chose to attack ground targets from air.
Now second point: Artillery abilities.
We all know when we deploy Siege Chopper to far from his target what happens. We have do undeploy him, move closer and deploy him again. We also know what happens when we deploy him accidentally to close to enemy. often gets destroyed by defenses or tanks, only few may survive if undeploy on time. Classic artillery simply moves from weapon's max range and fires.
My point here: Siege Chopper cannot have fully artillery capabilities because of its air/helicopter abilities.
So question here is, would be it better if Westwood separated Siege Chopper into 2 units: One helicopter which fires stronger machine gun from air, and one ground artillery with same cannon for better results?
2. Floating Disc. We all know what it can do: Fire laser to all targets, drain power from power plants, drain money from Refineries, and disable Base Defenses.
But here is disadvantage: You can build million of them, and you cannot win! Simply because they disable and drain some buildings rather than damaging them. And point of defeating enemy is destroying of his all buildings! And his cost from 1750$ is pretty high, for only one air unit available, and slow speed. And it is only one air unit available for Yuri and you cannot win with it! No chance wining from air.
So question here is, would it be better if they separated Floating Disc into two disks: One which fires that laser at everything, and second which disables buildings? They would make awesome combo, and you can win from air. Of course by removing him drain weapon, you will get cost decrease at least to 1400$, and bigger armor or improved speed, cause he no longer transports that thing. For second saucer, by removing laser you would get also cost decreased and improved speed or armor.
What do you think for this one, would it be better if Disk is separated?
3.Boomer. This is the best submarine ever seen. But still, he has two missiles with half damage of dreadnought. So, for land bombarding purposes only, he simply do not match cost of 2000$. For that price you will get more effective Dreadnought, in case that you want to bombard land.
Now, against submarines. He is cool, he will beat Submarine 1vs1, but I do not know about two submarines vs one Boomer. And their cost is same.
So, what do you think, would be better one Boomer, or Submarines-Dreadnought styles?
Everything has its advantages and disadvantages, but what do you think, which has more advantages? Do you prefer more one unit, one purpose for its cost, or two weaker purposes (or same but expensive) in one unit? _________________ PPM Halloween Season 2021 QUICK_EDIT
I see your point. I would go with single units with power. That would make things seem balanced in my eyes. Then again, Westwood did a pretty decent job with balancing and such. So it is a 50/50 situation. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 22 Dec 2004 Location: Tiberium Research Center N27
Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:49 am Post subject:
The point to all those units, is that they can be used in a changing situation without the need to change the production. When used well, those units could cause a lot of damage, especially in combination with other units. It's Westwood's way of making you actually use tactics instead of rushes.
Well, all two-purposes units were created for one reason: Westwood has a unit in mind, but it would be lackluster for a unit to JUST have that ability, however cool or purposeful that is.
1. It is very obvious that the Siege Chopper is superior to the Nighthawk Transport. More Strength, same machine gun, and an added long-range cannon when deployed, which is much superior than maybe a SEAL and 4 GGIs that the Nighthawk can offer. All this for an extra 100 in cost, what's not to like? It is very logical for a dual-purpose unit to have lower firepowers in both weapons, or a boost in prices, or else they might be "OP". I have to disagree with you on one point though, the Siege Cannon is very effective, and you shouldn't have any troubles deploying them, unless the terrain is a forest. And no, it wouldn't have made sense to have seperated the Siege Chopper - why would the Soviets have a non-transporting Blackhawk, and a Siege Cannon helicopter without AA?
2. If you think Floating Disks cannot completely destroy a base without help, you are somewhat right. Unless the AI's last few base defenses are gathered far away from refineries and power plants, then yes, you cannot completely win with just Floating Disks. However with Floating Disks, you can guarantee a win. This is why I prefer Floating Disks over Kirov Airships in actual battles - they can destroy and cripple all your AA. Kirovs will always win in nostalgia though. What would be the point of two disks if one can guarantee a win? Why would there be a disks specifically designed to disable power and retrieve wealth? A spy can do the same without having a giant UFO.
3. No specific explanation for this one, except that 1. No point to copy the Soviets in style, 2. No real reason to have another naval unit for Yuri.
Personally, I love all of these dual-purpose units. Whats better than a helicopter with a cannon which can penetrate all your Prism Towers just by being out of range? How about disabling all your defenses, steal some of your funds, and destroy all your IFVs and GGIs with ease? And the Boomer, you can't see it until there's 10 near your base launcher Cruise Missiles.
Technically speaking, most of the units in RA2YR are dual-purposed. Flak Trooper, Attack Dog, Engineer, Tesla Trooper, Desolator, Crazy Ivan, Boris, Flak Track, Apocalypse, Siege Chopper, War Miner, and that's only naming the Soviet ones. There wouldn't be Strategy in RTS if there weren't. QUICK_EDIT
2. If you think Floating Disks cannot completely destroy a base without help, you are somewhat right. Unless the AI's last few base defenses are gathered far away from refineries and power plants, then yes, you cannot completely win with just Floating Disks. However with Floating Disks, you can guarantee a win. This is why I prefer Floating Disks over Kirov Airships in actual battles - they can destroy and cripple all your AA. Kirovs will always win in nostalgia though. What would be the point of two disks if one can guarantee a win? Why would there be a disks specifically designed to disable power and retrieve wealth? A spy can do the same without having a giant UFO.
Its kinda like using the Allied spy to power down an enemies base to launch an air strike. When I played unmodded I would send 6 spies into the base and power it down, then strike with 16 planes to take down the conyard. _________________ I am authorized to send out the TMP Studio, PM ME IF YOU WANT IT And check this out, these were sent to me for help with terrain and zdata help along with TMP Studio/Builder
Actually, if one Disk is draining a structure I'm pretty sure the other Disks will use a regular attack. But it's been a while since I've seen Yuri in action. QUICK_EDIT
Actually, if one Disk is draining a structure I'm pretty sure the other Disks will use a regular attack. But it's been a while since I've seen Yuri in action.
Yes, that's why I stated for base defenses to be away from drainable structures, for that's the only way Floating Disks will destroy them. QUICK_EDIT
Yeah people, I wanted to heard those opinions and views.
001010011100101110 wrote:
1. It is very obvious that the Siege Chopper is superior to the Nighthawk Transport. More Strength, same machine gun, and an added long-range cannon when deployed, which is much superior than maybe a SEAL and 4 GGIs that the Nighthawk can offer. All this for an extra 100 in cost, what's not to like?
Well that is problem. This is the first problem. Like you said SAME MACHINE GUN. And Nighthawk's machine gun is not supposed for ATTACKING purposes, its for DEFEDNING only, and personnel only, to clear some engineers which try to capture some oil derricks, because Nighthawk is for Transport purposes.
You cannot compare two different type units. Nighthawk is for transport, Siege chopper is for SIEGE PURPOSES. Which means that you must compare it with units for same purpose.
I said make some helicopter. Apache for example, make it same cost as siege chopper. Therefore Siege chopper will have to loose 1vs1 battle because he has secondary ability. Point is that his cannon is useless in air, but because if it he must be weaker. Or can have same attack damage, but must be more expansive then. Which means that you must build more of them in order to conquer other helicopters.
But okay, lets talk about ingame, unmodded game.
I just tested few minutes ago. 2 Siege choppers vs one Floating Disc.
he killed them both! One Siege chopper costs 1400$ but cause we play 1.001 patch, then it costs 1100$. Well 2x1100$ are 2200$ comparing to 1750$ Floating disc costs. It is 450$ more which is not low amount of money.
Still my point stands that Siege chopper can be used only as Artillery unit, not as AA combatant.
if enemy is attacking your Kirovs with few floating discs, you will need at least double more number of Siege choppers to have chance to defend them only, not even talk about defending other units! Like Nighthawk, Siege chopper cannot even properly defend itself! And yet again we shouldn't talk about attacking purposes.
Thats why I think that it is much better choice if they removed his artillery cannon, but give him few times more powerful Machine gun. So he can not just defend itself and Kirovs, but he can attack other aircraft units, but also ground units! For same or less cost!
And his powerful cannot should be given to Howitzer or any other ground unit which is more mobile than him. You still must deploy him in order to attack.
I also tested how many Siege Choppers one floating Disc may kill on 1vs1 battles. But when he finish with one, I attacked him with second Siege chopper without waiting his health to regenerate.
And guess what? I stopped testing until one FLoating Disc took down 4 Siege choppers! And he still had yellow health. Most likely he would kill one more or two!
But I tested Three Siege CHoppers attacking one Floating Disc. They took him down, but he managed to destroy one of them!
001010011100101110 wrote:
It is very logical for a dual-purpose unit to have lower firepowers in both weapons, or a boost in prices, or else they might be "OP".
Exactly, that was my point. But as I tested it out, he is simply not worth with that weak machine gun.
001010011100101110 wrote:
I have to disagree with you on one point though, the Siege Cannon is very effective, and you shouldn't have any troubles deploying them, unless the terrain is a forest.
I did not say it is problem deploying him, I said it is drawback comparing to classic artillery unit! because artillery unit can fire immedietely and move closer to target if need. But Siege Chopper must waste time on deploying and deploy. Also, enemy is not stupid. They often hunt down Choppers when deploy, especially often happens that AI build Anti air defense when Siege Chopper is deployed, so you cannot undeploy it.
In order to move he must be undeployed in air. Classic artillery doesnot have that problem.
001010011100101110 wrote:
And no, it wouldn't have made sense to have seperated the Siege Chopper - why would the Soviets have a non-transporting Blackhawk, and a Siege Cannon helicopter without AA?
Then you missed my point. Most probably due to my crappy English.
See, I did not mean to remove his artillery Cannon to be like Nighthawk.
I MEAN TO REMOVE HIS ARTILLERY CANNON, SO HE CAN GET FEW TIMES MORE POWERFUL MACHINE GUNS OR JUST MORE POWERFUL MACHINE GUNS AND COST DECREASE.
And his Artillery gun should be given to ground unit, like Howitzer for example, so that unit will be more devastating than Siege chopper in ground.
So, basically, its my fault because you did not get my point, not yours. My English is not perfect.
Like I said, Nighthawk cannot be compared to Siege Choppers cause Siege Chopper's purpose is Base Assaulting, Nighthawk's purpose is transporting. This is Chopper's drawback, he has machine gun which is designed only for support/self defending pusposes.
Yet again if we are going to compare Nighthawk with Siege Chopper, then we must say that thanks to nighhawk we can transport infantry across sea and mountains, and Soviets cannot do that. Siege Chopper does not have that ability. So, we cannot really say that Siege Chopper is far superior than Nighthawk.
001010011100101110 wrote:
2. If you think Floating Disks cannot completely destroy a base without help, you are somewhat right. Unless the AI's last few base defenses are gathered far away from refineries and power plants, then yes, you cannot completely win with just Floating Disks.
Well yes! That was point, you figured it out.
For example, Nighthawks and Siege Choppers are shitty for attacking from air, but at least you can make 10 of them and have chance to win from air. With 10 Floating Discs still you cannot win from air. Do not even talk about that Allies have Rocketeers and jets, and Soviets have Kirovs! And Yuri has only flying saucers.
001010011100101110 wrote:
However with Floating Disks, you can guarantee a win.
But guaranting win, and have possibility to win is not same.
But still your point stays. They cannot win war for you, but you cannot win war without them
001010011100101110 wrote:
This is why I prefer Floating Disks over Kirov Airships in actual battles - they can destroy and cripple all your AA. Kirovs will always win in nostalgia though.
Well not really, AA still can hit them down as any other units. Of course that DIscs may disable and destroy some of defences, but still, I would not vote for them alone in enemy bases. Yet again in some case may be useful more than Kirovs of course. But Kirov may qickly destroy buildings in one shoot. And yet again, Diskcs may fire at air targets...
001010011100101110 wrote:
What would be the point of two disks if one can guarantee a win? Why would there be a disks specifically designed to disable power and retrieve wealth?
man, that were totally wrong questions.
Then I have to ask you this:
What would be point of having 10 tanks when only few of them can guarantee win? To clear my statement, MCV cannot fight. And Miners cannot fight, only defend themselves. Drones cannot fight against buildings and such...
What is point of prism tanks when they cannot go in air like Siege choppers?
What is point of having transport discs or underground transport for Yuri if they cannot guarantee win?
Whats point of having EMP tanks then in mods?
Whats point of having repair vehicles when they cannot bring you victory?
You see that those questions are not in place.
Answer is all same >PURPOSES OF UNITS!
Like purposes of Miners are to bring you money, purposes of MCVs is not establish a base, purpose of prism tank is artillery, not flying unit.Purposes of underground transport and transport disc is transport only. Then purposes of Parasite Discs is to disable structures. They are not designed to bring you victory. And purpose of second Assault disc is assault. So having one or few of them will give you chance to bring you victory.
Two points here: Sometimes I need to destroy enemy's units or garrisoned structures or infantry. So I have to build Floating Discs. But then, I do not need their drain weapon. Therefore Disk without drain weapon would be more cheap for massive production for this purpose, and faster or heavier armored. I need only drain weapon when attacking base. And yet again I am forced to build them only as only one air unit.
I have no choice. With two discs you have choice. You will build only parasite disc when you need to attack/sabotage buildings only. And build cheaper and faster or heavier Assault discs will help you more than two purposes Floating discs.
Also, be noticed that Floating Discs cannot have fully parasite potential because of its laser abilities.
For example, single Parasite disc only may also disable Radars, Super weapons and most likely pillboxes and sentry guns. I can 100% assure you that I remember back in 2001/2002 that in first versions of YR I have disabled Sentry guns and pillboxes with Floating discs. Later it has been fixed.
001010011100101110 wrote:
A spy can do the same without having a giant UFO.
Well that is totally different thing, different purposes too. Spy must enter in building! And he will disable power only one minute. Disc may disable power forever! Until you took him down you will be without power, and guess what, you cannot sell oarasited power plant!
Also, he will steal money from you forever, shortly, but your money will be drained form your account!
Also spy is ground unit, Disk is airborne unit, which means that only AA weapons may shoot at it. At spy, any weapon except Patriots and flak tracks may shoot at him.
basically, in Soviets, only Flak tracks, Apocalypse and Flak trooper may shoot at Discs! And any unit may shoot at Spy.
In Allies, only Rockeeters, GGI, IFV and Nighthawk may shoot at Discs, and anyone except spy and chrono miner may shoot at spy!
That is main advantage of air units compared to ground. Do not even talk about strength compassion and speed.
Also, Disc as airborne unit may go over cliffs and water. Spy cannot.
Disc may be build on Moon, spy cannot. Even if wearing cosmonaut suit, still there are no much infantry on ground, so there is not chance that you will fool some player and infiltrate base.
And Spies cannot disable base defenses and AA defences which can hit them especially. However, spies can do much by infiltrating than Discs cannot. Thats why they cannot be compared directly.
001010011100101110 wrote:
3. No specific explanation for this one, except that 1. No point to copy the Soviets in style,
Well, not exactly copying Soviet style, but what about having own style like Allies? To have few units rather than one expensive only.
001010011100101110 wrote:
2. No real reason to have another naval unit for Yuri.
Really? What about if you do not have enough money to build few boomers which cost 2000$, and enemy is attacking you with navy?
You still need cheaper anti vessel submarine.
Also what about anti Air ship? Like Sea scorpion or Aegis.
gattling ship for example?
You see, many famous mods, and almost all professional mods like MO, YR Squared, many of Fen's mods, Cannis rules and such redesigned Yuri Navy and airforce for that reason because there are more drawbacks than advantages.
001010011100101110 wrote:
Personally, I love all of these dual-purpose units.
I also love tham, like I said, Siege Chopper is best helicopter I ever seen. Boomer is best submarine I ever seen.
But I am just saying that they will be much more powerful if have separated abilities to other units.
001010011100101110 wrote:
Whats better than a helicopter with a cannon which can penetrate all your Prism Towers just by being out of range?
What is better of having prism tanks around shooting at multiple deployed helicopters at same time? Or even better, grand cannon!
Whats better of same helicopter already deployed waiting yours to be deployed and shooting at Tesla Coils? Or V3 waiting from very long range and shooting at deployed choppers?
001010011100101110 wrote:
How about disabling all your defenses, steal some of your funds, and destroy all your IFVs and GGIs with ease?
How about to survive first before disable all of my defenses and destroy some of my IFV and GGis with ease?
That is exactly what I was trying to prove you. With one floating disc you cannot do two things at same time. You must have choice, or to disable power plants first, or to destroy AA units! You have third option: Order few of them to disable, few of them to fight.
Which proves point that two type of Discs would be better choice: One will go to disable stuff, another will go to fight. And you will have more chance to survive.
001010011100101110 wrote:
And the Boomer, you can't see it until there's 10 near your base launcher Cruise Missiles.
And with Boomer, this will happen in case that I or any player do not own our own navy!
Destroyers, dolphins and Squids and Submarines detect boomers, and I will attack them from anything I have when detect them! Not just with navy, but trey to bombard them from Aircraft.
Oh yeah, you cannot defend your boomers from Aircraft!
Oh sorry again, when you attack Soviet submarines with Osprey, there is always Sea scoprion to shoot at them, so same Osprey wont hit submarine twice! But Boomer doesnot have Anti aircraft vessel to prevet Osprey hitting him.
Also, you told about 10 boomers. 10x2000$ are 20 000$!
For 20 000 I can make even better navy combination.
Also you cannot produce them quickly cost of 2000$ slows down production. And be aware that 10 boomers are like 5 Dreadnoughts in missile powers.
Also be aware that I am aware that you can have Boomers only around, and you are not aware how much Squids and Submarines I have around. I know that you must attack me with Boomers only, and I do not need to build anything apart from cheaper Submarines only and some of Sea scorpions to hit down missiles. yes, boomers cannot fire two weapons in same time. Until they launch missiles, they are legal target to submarines, aircraft or anything that can shoot them.
001010011100101110 wrote:
Technically speaking, most of the units in RA2YR are dual-purposed. Flak Trooper, Attack Dog, Engineer, Tesla Trooper, Desolator, Crazy Ivan, Boris, Flak Track, Apocalypse, Siege Chopper, War Miner, and that's only naming the Soviet ones. There wouldn't be Strategy in RTS if there weren't.
Well you are right, but I did not mean two similiar purposes, I mean of two totally different purposes which can be separated.
Flak Trooper cannot be separated because point of flack gun is too shoot at ground and air. So basically it is one purpose.
Attack Dog is designed for killing infantry, Yuri clones and Spies. So basically it is same purpose.
Engineer also has one purpose, called Engineering which includes: Repair buildings and Neutral structures, repair bridges, capturing tech Buildings... Yeah additional purpose is only bomb disarm.
tesla Trooper has secondary purpose, but he must have secondary purpose, to enhance Tesla coils, otherwise having infantry only to enhance Tesla Coils is stupid idea and useless.
Desolator has only one purpose to kill infantry and light vehicle. But he does it on two ways. Still he has one purpose.
Apocalypse is ultimate tank designed for destroying ground and air targets, two purposes, but similiar.
War Miner has weapon only for defending purposes! he has no dual purposes, apart from Mining only. As Chrono Miner has purpose then to teleport himself at refinery.
I am talking here about two differently purposes: Helicopter and artillery, submarine and Ground bombardier from water!
Only Yuris Revenge includes few of such units.
Also, Battle fortress has two purposes: To serve as Mobile bunker and to crush vehicles. That do not stack to each other.
because, loaded with soldiers, he will shoot at vehicles and still try to crush them! meaning that he will always go to close fight and front lines, making himself easy target.
If he got separated, if he lost his crushing ability then he would have stronger machine gun, heavy armor and more slot for infantry at same cost! And means that he will shoot at vehicles from safer distances rather than runing into them.
Secondly, if you have second battle fortress for crushing only, then he would have less armor but much quicker speed, meaning that we will much quicker crush vehicles! For example, War Miners when mining Ore! or some of vehicles trying to shoot at him.
Oh man, this is nice conversation! I am glad to talk to you! hahahaha _________________ PPM Halloween Season 2021 QUICK_EDIT
lmao, now I understand why hoasis got banned from renproj. _________________ "I'll be staying strapped cuse my mac-eleven make my nuts bigger" QUICK_EDIT
Why? I am not banned from there, I posted two months ago.
I got banned from bug tracker only. And that was account only, I still can read and register.
Anyway, do you have something smart to say? To add into conversation? _________________ PPM Halloween Season 2021 QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 23 Apr 2010 Location: indonesia, sticking at keyboard
Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:57 am Post subject:
Its start again.. Anyway, i see you are spammer that only produce one or two unit. Judge the unit with the synergy with other unit! _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Well, maybe, but yet again he would not understand. ...Maybe.
iamn00b wrote:
Its start again.. Anyway, i see you are spammer that only produce one or two unit. Judge the unit with the synergy with other unit!
You are lucky because I told Banshee that I am not going to argue with anyone anymore. Otherwise I would show you how I threat smart asses.
Now, if you guys want to add something to this topic, then write, I strictly forbid you speaking about anything here which is not subject of topic. Next who tries to start fight again, or post anything which is not subject of topic, I will report him straight to Banshee immediately. I am serious. _________________ PPM Halloween Season 2021 QUICK_EDIT
Of course units should have multiple roles, otherwise it'd be very simple and boring, constructing one type of unit for each role needed.
The Siege Chopper is a more mobile but less directly effective siege unit. It's purpose is to attack relatively undefended positions, using it's speed to avoid enemies, therefore it does not have a powerful anti-ground weapon when undeployed.
For more powerful base cracking power you use the V3. Although it has far superior range and firepower it has very little maneuverability so if not protected it can easily be destroyed. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 23 Apr 2010 Location: indonesia, sticking at keyboard
Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:05 am Post subject:
MasterHaosis wrote:
Well, maybe, but yet again he would not understand. ...Maybe.
iamn00b wrote:
Its start again.. Anyway, i see you are spammer that only produce one or two unit. Judge the unit with the synergy with other unit!
You are lucky because I told Banshee that I am not going to argue with anyone anymore. Otherwise I would show you how I threat smart asses.
Now, if you guys want to add something to this topic, then write, I strictly forbid you speaking about anything here which is not subject of topic. Next who tries to start fight again, or post anything which is not subject of topic, I will report him straight to Banshee immediately. I am serious.
LOL i not want to start any fight, and what i mean spammer is, spammer in playing YR not spammer in forum
Many dual-purpose unit needs micromanagement to work best, and dual-purpose unit can be useful as it can turn-tide of battle. if you ever play RA3, Empire of the rising sun is the example..
an example, siege chopper, can be good to attack kirov in swarm. and as artillery unit, is the fastest and most mobile artillery unit ingame! support it with other unit, like rhino+flak trooper, or to protect it in siege mode, that can devastating. that what i mean synergy.
spammer player, usually just build one or two unit type, build as much as they can, and throw it away to enemy base. they dislike to use ability, thats why they dislike dual-purpose unit that need to activate the ability, like siege chopper.
and, again, i dont want to attack anyone. i just give my opinion. peace ! _________________ QUICK_EDIT
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Two purposes in one unit
here is new one.
