Joined: 15 Jun 2011 Location: "Where do you want setup?".
Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:45 pm Post subject:
How would you balance these if you were in my shoes???
Subject description: Vanilla is unbalanced really, but when you only have this sucker to play with it's not your fault.
hey everyone, long time no see, but let's get to the deal here, I've been playing Yr since 2004, recently, I've managed to get another PC and linked it to the old one to play games over LAN, playing online or through lan truly changed game play experience, from my field of view, YR is heavily unbalanced, I need to find the best way to balance it, my friend whom am playing the game with detests mods, however, I've been trying to sneak some small stuff in their to balance things, that went out fine and soon he like small mods that don't add anything, without cheating of course, so I need some guidelines, keep in mind that:
A. Disabling a unit (Via TechLevel or removing it from TechnoTypes) is disallowed.
B. Build limits are Disallowed, especially buildlimit=-1
C. My friend plays as yuri all (most) the time (I hear they say yuri's side is banned from online games, but the idiot says it's an "Offical" side).
He still likes the allies too
Now here are the points he argued about:
1. "The AI must never use what I use against him."
In good words, rushing with flying disks, prism tanks, or even war miners (good way to kill mind control stuff).
2."The unit range must not be touched."
That's for the prism tank, the damage it does is hell itself, he doesn't want a low range, but I was able to manage out a 1 cell less which he didn't notice.
If he wasn't an allied player, he MC's one and rushes with them.
3. "No units must be immune to MC."
The idiot thinks boris and tanya where vulnerable in vanilla, what an idiot, that point was cleared, but here is something else he wants me to make them MC able!!!.
4. "The magnetron s range must remain the same."
The magnetron is a F***ING b**ch, it's range is even higher than a deployed siege chopper on a cliff!!!, What kind of bull shit is this?.
5. "You can make new maps with some stuff in them"
The result of the quote above was a 200x200 map for 8 players, the two of us and 6 Heavily guarded AI bases, each base is surrounded with small cliffs the have cliffs on them (The smallest such cliff has a grand cannon, 2 prism towers and 2 Flak cannons, BTW prism towers use support beams through the cliff, for some reason, it's not preventable.
Those defenses above where useless, the AI repairs them and all but once you hole down 3 adjacent ones, you can pass through like a king, mostly at the sides of the map this is easier.
BTW those cliffs have gap generators down below them.
6. My friend doesn't use naval units, he only uses boomers when on that map in specific because 5 ones do the trick on those flak cannons for good, and then goes the grand cannon, I added lots n loads of them but that got him to do the same thing he does, he leaves the game without warning, and of course, deletes the map before swearing he'll never play it if it's like that.
7. "Changing the attack power of AA units, that is blasphemy!!!."
What a sh*t head, right?, your telling me to quit playing with this loser and play online as if i had a DSL link, BTW what is the smallest bandwidth that I should have if i wanted to play the game without much glitches?.
8. "Though shall not remove the grinder nor delay the psychic towers attack any further nor reduce the number of MC links .
For that reason, I've designed new AI triggers that made him forget psychic towers, these triggers are prism tanks, V3's, and magnetron s coupled with disks, they only happen if he builds just 1 of those towers, I warned him about that and he amazingly accepted these !!!, no matter, Yuri clones did the job, but here comes my evil sniper in an IFV, that is if I even could get that through all of those defenses to his base.
9. "Flying disk's ability's must remain intact
Not even less health.
10. The mod must be modded under his nose, he keeps the last copy in a USB stick, which he always keeps in his pockets, not to mention the little Ra2/Yr clean up program he uses before placing the mod.
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Now tell me, what's the second easiest way of getting through these? huh.
Wait did I just say second easiest?, that's because the first is quit playing with such a loser, or beat him up till he get's to understand what's right and whats wrong, the idiot nearly warships Yuri and keeps saying "Your thoughts are mine" as well as all of yuri primes voices, and get this when we play both as yuri's side, he just builds disks and rush every thing in his way.
one small note is this:
Quote:
My wins against him: 2
My loses: uncountable
Funny huh?, that bastard cheats in all ways possible, for instance, since the two PC's are directly next to each other, he sneak peeks at what am doing (same goes for me thought ), the big cheat is the fact that he never plays unless he uses a ripped file from deezire's mod, ELOCALMD, which turns shroud into an opaque surface that let's you see the battle field yet unable to target stuff, one more thing is that he grinds everything he gets his hands on (even his starting lasher tanks) and masses war factories to speed up his disk production, he has unlimited money.
The only two wins I had against them where once where we both were playing as Russia with no AI's against us, I mass produced siege choppers and destroyed his factories before finishing him off.
the second time wasn't different, he was playing as Germany this time and I was Russia, I beat him with 4 Kirov 's can you believe that?.
Since then he never played any other than Yuri, he attacked and defended with disks and never agreed to play without AI's to delay my assaults on him, see why am a "big loser" here?.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
You might be thinking that I went totally off topic to whine and complain about that, but am sure that Yuri's team needs balance, am going to force him next time to play by my own rules that I hope I can get help with from you guys, am just gonna try to put an [include] to include my own rules from another directory which he wouldn't see, then am gonna put that include section in a modified ra2md.mix (but i'll still keep an untouched one) then get him to try all he can to remove this mod, although reinstalling the game might work but at least I would've done what I wanted.
What do you think. _________________ Also known as superluigi949 and SuperMario949.
Banned for pretending to be someone else. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 28 Apr 2009 Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:44 am Post subject:
He sounds like a sore loser tbh, why do you play with him? He rage quits and picks an imbalanced side. You haven't given us much to work with because you want to maintain all the factors that makes Yrui and imbalanced side... Still, I would reduce the power output of Bio-Reactors to counter psychic tower spam and make Gatling cannons AA only. Up the cost of boomers and decrease the damage of their missiles and torpedoes and make them slower. Up the cost of Yuri clones. DONT make Tanya and Boris able to be MC'd they are specifically trained to ignore that. Up the cost of floating disk, they are imbalanced and make them slower. Decrease the floating disk's ROF. For the magnetron, I'd weaken the armour and up the cost. For the genetic mutator, I would make a brute clone that has the same strength but costs nothing so you cant use the mutator for extra cash. Reduce the grinder cash output and remove the gun from the slave miner. To boost your side, upgrade the armour on Soviet Airships, and spam those buggers. a fleet of ten of them can set back any player. Anti-Yuri tactics which help, be Britain and use snipers. Spam them near slave miners to cripple the economy, that stops the floating disks. Aegis cruisers are also a must for naval maps. A squadron of those, covered by destroyers is lethal to any Disc spammer. _________________ Beta Tester for Mental Omega 3.0
If he will not learn, stop playing with him, find someone else to play, Yuri side is soo annoying and unbalanced you have headaches playing against an single yuri AI, finding new tactics against the ai is ok, but an player? (and with "cheats"?)
Yeah, probably you will lose again and again, start playing co-op maps with him, or as allieds, or forget, it's not worth.
Joined: 15 Jun 2011 Location: "Where do you want setup?".
Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:03 am Post subject:
Unfortunately, there is no other friend who plays YR, They all think "dead old games must be shit", He still plays c&c gold & stuff.
@Death Cultist:
I'll do most of that and be back with feedback, btw i found at cncgames.com (raden) an archived topic about such, where the guy kept on removing/adding things.
btw I forgot to say that we play without sw's, he rage quits all the time so I think am gonna use the easiest way: quit playing with him, and get some good net speed, what was the lowest acceptable bandwidth for online gaming (YR) ?. _________________ Also known as superluigi949 and SuperMario949.
Banned for pretending to be someone else. QUICK_EDIT
Ever tried letting him play non-Yuri, while you play as Yuri? Just to show him how absolutely ridiculous OP Yuri is, that might put him on different thoughts. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 15 Jun 2011 Location: "Where do you want setup?".
Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:21 am Post subject:
He refuses such things since his two first losses, that idiot rage quit-ed today when I got him against 7 brutal yuri ai's (no sw's) and he did that because his base was invaded by 8 disks per side, not to mention mags & MM's & gattlings etc.
The subject should be like this: has anyone made a power balance mod yet?. _________________ Also known as superluigi949 and SuperMario949.
Banned for pretending to be someone else. QUICK_EDIT
There was some balance mod project on cncgames forums in past done by one of the pro gamers...
Still the idea of really good balance mod is frankly impossible for YR, if we really had to try stick to no new units approach... as Yuri's side is really unfinished with holes in the design and has such overkills as unlimited mind control in mastermind, ok sure you overload it but if grinder near...
thus the cost ratios will not match up= bad balance and yuri takes money for grinded units over the whole deal... okay how about floating disks then... even 1 of them can shut off power of whole base, which is again questionably too useful but then on the bad side, yuris faction doesnt have many means of attack directly so such overkills exist to bypass his lack of heavy tank or notable artillery as magnetron is not very effective directly at buildings and due to WW has abuse flaws in its levitating power, which is fixable on unit per unit basis luckily regards whole units not fall down instantly when beam is stopped which spurred whole magnetron juggling act balance issue.
Battle fortress bonuses given also elevation bonus (on a cliff...abused a lot on tour of egypt) allows it to out range easily most units with GGIs and this is already case on basic grounds, prism tank packs same damage value in its shrapnel beams as direct beam which again is totally messed up balance as accidental shrapnels toast buildings on the spot.
Soviet Apocalypse is totally worthless and not being able to fire on the move also impacts this badly, v3 rockets are too slow and easily shot down and dont give much blast radius for their size either...
Boomer is as gay as it is since yuri not have other subs to spread the roles and as such you cant go making its missiles weaker or torpedos unless you reduce price but that makes it available always faster which is even more flawed as boomer would belong to battle lab but there is no light sub or AA boat to fill between roles so issues are clear.
i could go on and on how flawed the original is :/
Plus countless need to optimize things, there is no optimization at all in original game so it runs suboptimal and shows this mostly online :/
Edit: quickedit doesn't work! thus i left it unedited at first as accidentally posted before spacing. Last edited by ApolloTD on Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:19 am; edited 1 time in total QUICK_EDIT
Damn, Apollo, split that big bunch o' text into paragraphs, will ya? Not that I had trouble reading it, it just looks stupid. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
YR = imbalanced mess of fail. Balance is fairly simple once you know exactly what makes Yuri the overpowered force that he is. Hint: It's not mind control. _________________ KGR | AT
AZUR
Discord: theastronomer1836
Steam QUICK_EDIT
I wouldn't bother, if he's afraid of the AI then you should be able to crush him anyway, so theres no point balancing anything. _________________ MIdAS - Turning wages into beer since 2002 QUICK_EDIT
But they aren't worth crap alone, unless you just happen to be able to drop the enemy units in water/on land/cliffs.
Magnetrons alone are still quite dangerous, but a bit less so. Set them to do an attack->move through a group of tanks. They will straight juggle them around, making them basically useless. Especially when you get unlucky and one drops on top of another. It's when you mix in Gatt Tanks, Viruses and Masterminds that Yuri gets really dangerous. Anything more like a few Lasher Tanks or Discs, and Yuri becomes unstoppable. Nothing can beat that combo short of Iron Curtained Terror Drones, and maybe GGI-BFs mixed with Prism Tanks/Mirage Tanks. _________________ KGR | AT
AZUR
Discord: theastronomer1836
Steam QUICK_EDIT
Only fix for juggling is make all tanks drop instantly when beam stops levitating (plus can alter lifting speed too as per every target) so more chance for them manage stay ground level between juggling to get more shots off at the magnetrons to break the juggle as being levitated prevents them from firing their weapons, else this wouldn't work so damn well.
Yuri's side has nice creativity even if unfinished but same creativity also brought nice abuse potentials... QUICK_EDIT
The best fix for Magnetrons is stopping their attack->move actually. Makes people have to actually try when using them. _________________ KGR | AT
AZUR
Discord: theastronomer1836
Steam QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 28 Apr 2009 Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:26 pm Post subject:
I say secretly boost the power of the Nuke to a ridiculous standard (Flattens everything in a huge radius), reduce the cost to say 1000 (but keep the tech level the same) all without his knowledge of course and post the reaction on YouTube. _________________ Beta Tester for Mental Omega 3.0
I say secretly boost the power of the Nuke to a ridiculous standard (Flattens everything in a huge radius), reduce the cost to say 1000 (but keep the tech level the same) all without his knowledge of course and post the reaction on YouTube.
This:
Kcirevam wrote:
btw I forgot to say that we play without sw's, he rage quits all the time so I think am gonna use the easiest way
Although the reaction would be priceless, but I think he'd notice a camera filming him. _________________ Grab my Map Logic Expansion Pack 5.2 here!
Adds random weather patterns into maps.
More disabled navalyards.
Preplaced Neutral buildings.
Additional new features.
Even if he spams dozens of broken stuff, 10-15 drones can't be unstoppable by that. Play with special_2, if yes. _________________ "If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
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Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
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WeiDU mods: Random Graion Tweaks | Graion's Soundsets
Maintainance: Extra Expanded Enhanced Encounters! | BGEESpawn
Contributions: EE Fixpack | Enhanced Edition Trilogy | DSotSC (Trilogy) | UB_IWD | SotSC & a lot more... QUICK_EDIT
GD, double factory is tough on most maps. You need a good source of early game ore to sustain that double factory. _________________ KGR | AT
AZUR
Discord: theastronomer1836
Steam QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:01 pm Post subject:
Well, Speeder is training our economy game ATM for me that means 3 miners at WF build, so I understand your point, but I thought because they are playing lame, they have already upped the starting maximum money.
And even 25k starting is enough to maintain the second factory. _________________ "If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
=======================
Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
=======================
WeiDU mods: Random Graion Tweaks | Graion's Soundsets
Maintainance: Extra Expanded Enhanced Encounters! | BGEESpawn
Contributions: EE Fixpack | Enhanced Edition Trilogy | DSotSC (Trilogy) | UB_IWD | SotSC & a lot more... QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 28 Apr 2009 Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:50 pm Post subject:
Is it possible to make terror drone attack hovering aircraft? That would be funny. Or mount the Nuke on a conscript _________________ Beta Tester for Mental Omega 3.0
Well, Speeder is training our economy game ATM for me that means 3 miners at WF build, so I understand your point, but I thought because they are playing lame, they have already upped the starting maximum money.
And even 25k starting is enough to maintain the second factory.
With extra starting cash, it's doable of course. But usually, it's not feasible without some padded income sources like gems. Close proximity gems really opens the door for Soviet early game, which is where you see more double factory build orders. _________________ KGR | AT
AZUR
Discord: theastronomer1836
Steam QUICK_EDIT
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How would you balance these if you were in my shoes???
in an IFV, that is if I even could get that through all of those defenses to his base.
), the big cheat is the fact that he never plays unless he uses a ripped file from deezire's mod, ELOCALMD, which turns shroud into an opaque surface that let's you see the battle field yet unable to target stuff, one more thing is that he grinds everything he gets his hands on (even his starting lasher tanks) and masses war factories to speed up his disk production, he has unlimited money.
