Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:14 pm Post subject:
32 facing muzzleflash support?
Does Ares has a 32 facing support for muzzleflashes?
In other words, does the Anim= key for weapons accept 32 shps? (normally only 8 )
On a different note:
-Is there a chance that the facing information is passed through to the particle of a railgun? So you can create an SHP railgun with facing specific particles. This would allow a massive reduction in particles while keeping a stream like effect, which in turn should raise the performance for all railgun based weapons.
-Any chance that facing specific projectiles allow animations?
e.g.
[DRAGON]
Rotates=true
AnimLength=8 ;means 8 frames for each direction (shp would have 256 frames)
-Any chance that a facing specific projectile passes the facing information to the TrailerAnim?
e.g.
[Dragon]
Trailer=Firetrail01,Firetrail02,Firetrail03,...,Firetrail32
this would let the missile play a different traileranim according the facing. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
Shortly said NO, all of those would go into feature requests and I'm not sure what is the limit for line lenght that engine parses correctly and thus 32 entries may fail it easily if using the usual Anim= system.
I guess Anim restricts to 128 characters just like AnimList for warheads. (at least in TS) _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:36 pm Post subject:
Ares expanded every list to take 2048 characters. Rest is what Apollo said, neither of these exists. _________________ "If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
=======================
Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
=======================
WeiDU mods: Random Graion Tweaks | Graion's Soundsets
Maintainance: Extra Expanded Enhanced Encounters! | BGEESpawn
Contributions: EE Fixpack | Enhanced Edition Trilogy | DSotSC (Trilogy) | UB_IWD | SotSC & a lot more... QUICK_EDIT
Anim= accepts any number of animations that fit into 127 characters, but the special behavior is only triggered if the list contains 8 items.
Particle systems don't have facings. They have a starting point and an end point. This can't be mapped to a facing easily, because both points are 3D and have to take height differences into account.
Animating Rotates=yes projectiles should be quite easy. Missile trailers might be harder, because they should have about the same problems as particle systems. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Hyper told me how to do that hack for DTA, but he doesn't wanna implement it into HP because he can't figure out how to make it optional (so you can't both have units with 8 facings and 32). Another issue with the 32-facing hack is that a unit's SHP's first frame is no longer the one that faces north, but 2 facings after that (so the first frame is 1 frame before the north-east facing) and the 30th frame is now the one that faces north.
I imagine that if Alex can't figure out how to overcome these issues, he might not wanna implement it into Ares either. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
This should be implemented anyway and then all 8 facings SHPs simply fixed to use 32 facings. (simply copy each frame 4 times and adjust the start/end frame)
Once this is done, it will surely soon become a new standard and every modder will create SHPs according to this. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
Yeah, that's exactly what I did in DTA, but for mods that didn't account for this it could take quite a while to make the necessary changes to all of their SHPs.
Then again, if it's not doable to make it possible to entirely enable/disable this feature via key in Rules.ini/Art.ini, wouldn't it be an option to just make the 32-facings hack its very own DLL file (in addition to Ares' other files)? _________________ QUICK_EDIT
If there is no actuall way to keep 8-faced units then I think it doesn't worth it. Animated 8-faced are perfect for walker units. But maybe it can be done with sequences? Something like TurnLeft= TurnRight= _________________ Gangster is a Project Perfect Wuj (c)Aro QUICK_EDIT
This should be implemented anyway and then all 8 facings SHPs simply fixed to use 32 facings. (simply copy each frame 4 times and adjust the start/end frame)
Once this is done, it will surely soon become a new standard and every modder will create SHPs according to this.
Are you serious?
For the record, 32 facing SHP unit have been dissed before by DCoder, Renegade and AlexB so I do not think it is ever going to be implemented.
It is a feature only a very few people would use. QUICK_EDIT
Or, ya know, just give the vehicles artmd a "32FACING=yes" tag, it's not like new tags can't be added.... _________________ MIdAS - Turning wages into beer since 2002 QUICK_EDIT
Or, ya know, just give the vehicles artmd a "32FACING=yes" tag, it's not like new tags can't be added....
Bittah Commander wrote:
Hyper told me how to do that hack for DTA, but he doesn't wanna implement it into HP because he can't figure out how to make it optional (so you can't both have units with 8 facings and 32).
[..]
I imagine that if Alex can't figure out how to overcome these issues, he might not wanna implement it into Ares either.
Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:15 pm Post subject:
Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
Once this is done, it will surely soon become a new standard and every modder will create SHPs according to this.
How naive. That's really naive LKO. As a modder you can't dictate standards. Even an Ares coder couldn't do such. VK did, but we are not VK.
Having two dlls syringed at the same time theoritacilly could work, AFAIK, but it was never tried out.
Tho, I'm not sure if the 32-faced SHP (have to say, I still think SHPs are overrated) method Hyper made couldn't be tagged in Ares, I mean Hyper's patch is binary where you have fixed sizes I think, here a hook could be made on the starting point that if 32-bit facing is enabled, go on the changed code and if not, just return to YR. It's among the pros of having a separate dll. _________________ "If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
=======================
Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
=======================
WeiDU mods: Random Graion Tweaks | Graion's Soundsets
Maintainance: Extra Expanded Enhanced Encounters! | BGEESpawn
Contributions: EE Fixpack | Enhanced Edition Trilogy | DSotSC (Trilogy) | UB_IWD | SotSC & a lot more... QUICK_EDIT
I second that. SHPs often look better than voxels and are easier to edit. The only downside of SHPs is that they can't tilt, which is only a problem when they move on slopes...
But who needs slopes in a mod anyways? _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Tho, I'm not sure if the 32-faced SHP (have to say, I still think SHPs are overrated) method Hyper made couldn't be tagged in Ares, I mean Hyper's patch is binary where you have fixed sizes I think, here a hook could be made on the starting point that if 32-bit facing is enabled, go on the changed code and if not, just return to YR. It's among the pros of having a separate dll.
My code i have here is a algo around Facings=[int], at Read_INI() i allow only 8, 16 and 32. The also is a pile of crap as i honestly give up with it. QUICK_EDIT
shp as vehicles? I don't like the idea. Yeah, you can texture them better, but from what i have seen they dont act the same. I would rather yuris allow 3d models before i would a shp image as a vehicle _________________ I am authorized to send out the TMP Studio, PM ME IF YOU WANT IT And check this out, these were sent to me for help with terrain and zdata help along with TMP Studio/Builder
Then obviously you've never played Reign of Steel, or any 2D RTS for that matter including TD, RA1 and even TS. Like people have said, the only limitations are lack of tilting of any kind (yet). Full support should be given for SHPs as it's beautiful to see fully continuous graphics style, since voxels naturally look different. QUICK_EDIT
ra1 was very lame, TS had vehicles that were shps? _________________ I am authorized to send out the TMP Studio, PM ME IF YOU WANT IT And check this out, these were sent to me for help with terrain and zdata help along with TMP Studio/Builder
Titan, Wolverine, Juggernaut, Core defender, Visceroid, Tiberium Floater, Cyborg Reaper, Hunterseeker to name a few
RA2 has a few too: Dolphin, Squid, Terror drone
Though since RA2 hasn't many units with a complex locomotion and only simple tracked/wheeled vehicles, the voxel outweigh shps.
For everything with a bit more complex movement (tentacles, arms, legs, snake movement etc) an SHP is much better suited. (snake or caterpillar movement is almost entirely impossible with voxel, or only with horrible results)
Things like the TI Whaloon are completely impossible as a voxel
Or try to create a voxel with wakes for ships.
Good luck having a voxel with 2500 sections with a single hva animated voxel in each section, to create some kind of spray effect
Nikademis Von Hisson wrote:
shp as vehicles? I don't like the idea. Yeah, you can texture them better, but from what i have seen they dont act the same.
What do you have seen?
Nikademis Von Hisson wrote:
I would rather yuris allow 3d models before i would a shp image as a vehicle
In many aspects do SHPs come a lot closer to 3D than voxel.
-animation/movement
-lighting, shading
-texturing
Only advantage of voxel is tilt/pitch, yaw and roll capability and 32 facings (latter one wouldn't count anymore when SHPs support 32 facings too). _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
Rocker=yes in extreme.
Well, it comes down what you prefer: A short rare death in 3d or the units always nicely animated, textured, lighted and with a correct shadow.
I prefer the one that i see more often. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
I find that voxels (especially by talented artists in large-scale projects) look way better than SHP Vehicles, considering that the environment of the project has a bigger effect on the visual than a simple rendering. I would find it a disgrace to see all of Project Phantom's voxel tanks to be SHPs, as they would lose a lot of their look that sets them apart from most other community projects.
As you said, it's a matter of preference and I would prefer something else worked on over 32 facing SHPs, considering I know of no individual in the RA2/YR community that is affected by this. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 22 Nov 2010 Location: Iszkaszentgyorgy, Hungary
Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 6:38 am Post subject:
LKO, I thought you have seen ErastusMercy's voxels. I know you are so much of a TS fan and you don't notice.... RA2 modding doesn't have many SHP vehiclers. With only Gangster and Holy_Master being the exceptions.
On the other side, there is Azri, Bu7loos, Mig Eater, Starkku, even m7 makes good edits... besides, as I have said, vpl lighting is dynamic. SHPs are static. You can't deny the fact that while your SHPs seem more 3D... they are just more 3D because you don't realize what is a good voxel.
I also prefer the one which I see more often.
And I dunno who have said that SHPs are easier to be done than to VXLs.... considering that good SHPs needs a modeller, a renderer, gazillion renderings... while good VXL only needs patience.... definitely I can agree. I have tried to understand Blender but it's that damn complex and it's no way one can make good SHP from scratch with Paint (except Team Black). _________________ "If you didn't get angry and mad and frustrated, that means you don't care about the end result, and are doing something wrong." - Greg Kroah-Hartman
=======================
Past C&C projects: Attacque Supérior (2010-2019); Valiant Shades (2019-2021)
=======================
WeiDU mods: Random Graion Tweaks | Graion's Soundsets
Maintainance: Extra Expanded Enhanced Encounters! | BGEESpawn
Contributions: EE Fixpack | Enhanced Edition Trilogy | DSotSC (Trilogy) | UB_IWD | SotSC & a lot more... QUICK_EDIT
Have you looked at the cost of buying VXLSE3?! It's ridiculous. And even once I buy it, it's many months of work to learn enough to make a decent voxel.
Quality is only one axis of the graph of goodness. Time/Money/Effort, seems to me, the other. If I can make something 80% as good as a SHP unit in voxel form in 50% of the time then I can have made two units (160% as good!) in the time one 3D unit takes to produce.
And I will race anyone who says otherwise. QUICK_EDIT
Titan, Wolverine, Juggernaut, Core defender, Visceroid, Tiberium Floater, Cyborg Reaper, Hunterseeker to name a few
RA2 has a few too: Dolphin, Squid, Terror drone
And you forgot that in Ares's EMP logic voxel vehicles got much darker when under EMP effect, until shps are not!
However, I also like idea that some of shps vehicles can look much better, like your tripod or those bugs which you created from TI.
Both of Shps and voxels have their own advantages and disadvantages. _________________ PPM Halloween Season 2021 QUICK_EDIT
It just shows that the VXLer have no clue how easy and fast it actually is to create an SHP.
And imo there is nothing imaginative in creating the millionth incarnation of wheels/tracks under a turret. It's ok to have a few different vehicles, but using only them is boring.
Thus I also admit that I dislike a bit the tendency of TI to use more and more voxel (e.g. replacement of the SHP cobra with the VXL viper; though i can understand the move due to the problem with the firing anim). Once I got my PC again, I'm sure Í'll try to replace a few of the voxel with some interesting SHPs.
@Orac: there are many free 3d tools around.
Quality > Quantity
MasterHaosis wrote:
And you forgot that in Ares's EMP logic voxel vehicles got much darker when under EMP effect, until shps are not!
That's a matter of taste and lack of complete Ares coding.
I would prefer a spark anim over the unit instead of an out of place looking false lighting. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
Yes, I know that this is possible to voxel stuff that will look nice. So what?
You say that it is easier to do, but it is not. Only a few people can do something worthy. They are experts pixel art, experts in normal, hundreds of successful and less-successful attempts. I respect them and I think voxeling is an Art.
Do not tell me that this is simple and everyone can make voxels. Check out the voxels section here on ppm. Hundreds of people are involved in voxeling, and only a dozen of them held in the high league. I am also honestly tried but havn't gone far. For all those years I was a little embarrassed. I haven't had a possibility to supply myself with my own graphics for the units. Always had to rely on other people. I am very grateful to those who participated with me in the development. But now there is ghostly chance I could probably do all sorts of tanks and machines. And I am reaching for it, why not. I believe that I am quite courteous. I am not requsting but asking whether this is possible. But then you come and offer to giveup with 3d max skillz because someone out there (not even you) can make beautiful voxels.
There is a lot more 3d modelers in our comutiny. It is not only I and HM or LKO or raminator. I could name at least ten other people. It just, only two of us, who tried to do something in this direction. And once we proved it is possible to use SHP for units (albeit with some restrictions) we have come here share our views and experiense and propositions for improvement. But this does not mean that only we are only two, who will we use this feature. I am sure that many of the modelers (though not all) will taste the new technology.
Here is a test on openRa engine: (sorry for too much red. Soviet house colour supposed to be olive)
Here is an example of YR-scale SHP unit:
Check out DoTA mod for real-time experiense. Or RotS mod. I am done _________________ Gangster is a Project Perfect Wuj (c)Aro QUICK_EDIT
Bottom line is, SHP have bad performance. If DCoder did implement "Use buffers to process graphics"(https://bugs.launchpad.net/ares/+bug/896298), this could be good. Right now, to laggy. QUICK_EDIT
Well I agree with that, they could code it to affect shp units aswell.
Buildings however, have different behavior under EMP logically, they just act like they are in low power situation, they stop emit animations which requires power to function.
Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
That's a matter of taste
Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
I would prefer a spark anim over the unit instead of an out of place looking false lighting.
This has nothing to do with taste, its about logic. Explain me how would you visually recognize EMP'd units in the middle of battle until there are other animations present over them (weapon, explosion, warhead anims which almost every single unit has)? And sparks are hardly visible because of bigger animations, and do not even mean other particle effects in game such as sparks, gas clouds and debris from destroyed vehicles.
At least with darker method you can easily see which unit is disabled during big battle. I do not mean that this is the best method, but this is best what we can get.
I think that you are still misunderstanding situation here because you are talking still like TS fan from TS view in stuff which should be viewed from different views. When you talk in TS stuff, then talk from TS view, but when you talk in YR especially Ares, then talk from RA view! You obviously missed the fact that RA2 is much bigger than TS, it has bigger voxels, animations, infantry and such, therefore small sparks over unit would not be enough as they are in TS. Have in mind that. Yes, I understand you can always make bigger sparks, but still, however not visually perfect, I agree with Ares team that shading effect for EMP immobilized voxel is enough for recognizing. _________________ PPM Halloween Season 2021 QUICK_EDIT
The problem with the EMP lightning animation in YR is the same as in TS; in fact it's an even bigger issue in YR than in TS exactly because many of the units are far bigger.
There can be a much greater diversity between unit sizes in YR, while the EMP lightning is just a tiny animation in the center (try imagining a lightning EMP SHP animation that'd look good on both a terror drone and an Apocalypse Tank) and this would look especially bad on taller units.
The most common and obvious example of this looking bad would be when any kind of tall walker unit is EMP-ed; the EMP lightning will only appear over its feet.
Gangster wrote:
Also dropping here a some testing enviroment done by Vefbl4
How do I view the other 2 units with that thing? Pressing space only gives me the supply truck and pressing random other keys doesn't seem to do anything
¥R_M0dd€r wrote:
Bottom line is, SHP have bad performance. If DCoder did implement "Use buffers to process graphics"(https://bugs.launchpad.net/ares/+bug/896298), this could be good. Right now, to laggy.
I never really did notice performance issues with SHPs in TS or is this issue present in YR only? And if so, could simply saving SHPs with compression 1 (instead of compression 3) improve the performance? _________________ QUICK_EDIT
There is no performance issue. Only lots of animations with transparency cause issues but that's the same as in TS. I mean if they caused issues then it'd be unplayable as most images are SHPs besides vehicles, including terrain really. QUICK_EDIT
^^true
looks like last attempts for catching arguments against SHPs.
It's fact, a mod can be made entirely via SHPs. Try to create a mod entirely with VXL. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
I have multiple times noticed the slowdowns of having SHP units. I have an alien side in my mod, where all the units are shp monsters. Someone explain why that side is causing lag and not other sides?
AlexB wrote:
Voxels are good for everything that can be viewed from different angles. Perspective of buildings are fixed in the viewport, so there really is no need to make them voxels. IIRC in an interview in 1999 some Westwood guy said (don't have proof available, was in a German PC mag) voxels are way more efficient to keep in memory, because there is only one piece of data how the thing and its turret looks -- there is no need to have the look from every angle possible available in memory. If needed, the appearance from a specific viewing angle can be calculated from the voxel.
The moment the chassis changes shape or turret of a SHP unit changes its location related to the chassis -- be it by walking, swimming, proning, cheering or whatever (or standing on a slope) -- the count of needed frames will spin out of control, because for every possible configuration there need to be special frames for it to look good. Without support for multi-part units (that is, no turret and no barrel) it is technically possible, but I don't know how much work that would be and whether this is feasible at all.
32 facings for a unit would increase the size of the shp four times.
If slopes are supported, how is it going to work on turreted units?
Using stealth on voxels is not to bad, but making shp transparent is lag-triggering.
Also, I think shp can not be tinted. QUICK_EDIT
Changing the compression setting of SHP has pretty much little to none performance effect (in my conclusive tests long ago) and compression 3 is just RLE instead of any kind of heavy compress algorithm akin to zip and the sorts so decoding RLE is damn quick.
SHP performance comment is regards the SHP drawing routines (not the shp file format) which could be more "efficient" due to tendancy of drawing engine get swamped under strain (overlapping boxes of drawing areas thus various layers) and in result have to slowdown/lag as can't draw at the rate requested, there is a performance threshold of toll in the engine, once reached, it begins lower FPS.
Protip, do not use excess canvas space in shps, it causes more lag despite it is empty since that empty area gets still drawn as empty due to game engine allocating drawing area based on shp dimensions, yep it is a bit dumb...(Talked about this with DCoder way back...) think the shp drawer like line writer, just because it says 0s for background..it still goes over them.
Wasn't as much issue in early C&Cs given small dimensions thus shp drawer less than optimal routine hardly show issues.
Anyhow addition of 32 face shps and such is not any more heavy drawing wise than existing stuff so a bit rockus over nothing and the shp is memory stored when accessed so can't lag due to shp size except on 1st load but drawing calls still apply....trust me, I have fed 50mb shp to the game engine... Last edited by ApolloTD on Sat Oct 27, 2012 4:21 pm; edited 3 times in total QUICK_EDIT
SHPs can be tinted, although unfortunately this only goes for SHPs that use that use the isotem/sno palette (but maybe this is something Ares could fix as well?).
Anyhow, aircraft and 2 subterranean units aside, DTA uses nothing other than SHP units and I haven't noticed any impact on the performance whatsoever because of this.
I haven't played your mod, so I can't say what the cause is; maybe your alien side uses a lot of transparent animations? _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Would like to have a look on your mod as well ¥R_M0dd€r. There are several ways to enhance performance and maybe you haven't used them all. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
]
How do I view the other 2 units with that thing? Pressing space only gives me the supply truck and pressing random other keys doesn't seem to do anything
You can't. It is a very early build. Try with SHP Viewer, tho thouse are not very same utilities _________________ Gangster is a Project Perfect Wuj (c)Aro QUICK_EDIT
Actually, the 32 facings logic would be quite simple (at least for the projectiles). It is just shifts and some rounding. The off-by-some-frames problem is a direct result of that, but it is solvable.
I didn't look into unit drawing specifically yet. If it is going to be implemented in Ares, this behavior would be optional. I'll see what I can do about the animated projectiles, but first I gotta finish my current feature.
Once I wrote some text about SHP units, slopes and that, but alas I can't remember where or when it was. To recap: having 32 facings with slope and rocker support would require much more frames than you might think. Essentially, it's facings multiplied by tilt levels multiplied by sideway rocking levels. For 8*8*8 that's 2048 frames, and most likely it wouldn't look good. 32*32*32 would be 32768 frames. Sure, exporting SHPs might be easy, but for the game, this might not be fun. 32*8*8 would still be 8192 frames. If you want to add a barrel, it would have 32 facings for each of the body's frames.
Using flat terrain that looks like slopes is a hack on the cost of real height levels, fire range bonuses and whatnot.
Regarding "the lack of complete Ares coding" and EMP effects: The frame of reference is wrong. Ares is responsible for what it changes, and whether this is well made or not, not for what it doesn't do. That's still WW-Wonderland. Darkening shp units was not added. (But the voxel dimming effect can be customized in the branch I'm working on already.)
Most of the other issues might have some astonishingly simple solutions. EMP sparkle anims could be made per-unit, and there could be an option to provide an offset to move it upwards for tall units.
And finally, the world is not black and white. The best argument pro SHP is not an argument contra VXL and vice versa, because both can coexist. They aren't mutually exclusive. And "I don't like SHPs or VXLs" is not an argument at all. It's just an opinion that doesn't help to make any decision. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
32 facings for SHPs is enough. There is no need for tilt frames imo.
Something like damaged frames would be much cooler here. Imagine having a tank showing scorch marks, broken antenna etc. Maybe even with the functionality to partially disable weapon systems according to the damage state.
Do you think there can be several of the VXL disadvantages solved?
e.g.
-via ini keys adjustable lighting (shadow size/position/distance, unit lighting direction like high sun, low sun etc)
-more hva anims (e.g. making the art.ini SHP frame keys work on vxl too: WalkFrames, StandingFrames, FiringFrames, DeathFrames, StartStandFrame, StartWalkFrame, StartFiringFrame; those need to be present then in the hva) _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
But the best quality could be achieved by hacking in some antialiasing against the background, an unlimited palette, a more complete/complex set of animations, and the like.
There is simply not the time between now and when the sun goes out to produce enough at a perfect quality. In truth the majority of SHPs could probably use a few extra percent.
What I'm saying is that if you're trying to produce an entire mod, then it's better to go for 80% as good and 100% more released ever. QUICK_EDIT
It would be better (as in more complicated), but that is not the way I implemented it. It would require more work, and thus more time I want to spend on other things. Especially the duration would add unneccessary complexity for this trivial feature. The intensity of the dimming effect is the only thing that can be customized now. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
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32 facing muzzleflash support?
