Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:41 am Post subject:
Alternate tile splitting?
So I notice FA2 at least is mixing the tileset variations when I place them, instead of substituting the whole piece... you can clearly see parts of my graffiti get abruptly cut off.
You mean the column is a complete one in the SHP, but FA2 then mixes parts of 2 separate columns into one?
That is very strange.
Does that also happen ingame?
I only know from FinalSun, that the bridge column/start/end is often shown damaged in FS while perfectly fine looking ingame.
Maybe this is also a FA2 issue only and ingame it works. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
FA2 & the game randomly select tiles separately so what you see in FA2 isn't the same as what will be ingame.
BTW the game randomly selects the first cell of a tile separately from the rest of the tile! So if you have two 2x2 tiles there is a 50% chance that the first cell will be from the other tile. All the tiles that use random selection in the original game tho are 1x1 so this bug/effect isn't normally seen.
As I pointed out before, bridges are also a special case where the random selection is instead used to for the damaged logic. The damaged/repair is also coded to only work with specific tile sets. So while looking nice these bridges cant be made to fully work. _________________
You mean the column is a complete one in the SHP, but FA2 then mixes parts of 2 separate columns into one?
That is very strange.
Yes.
What you're seeing in the bottom row is the same bridge section with 3 alternates (fover03, fover03a, fover03b...) and as you see FA2 is sort of randomly placing bits of each.
The top right most graffiti-heavy column is almost correct, except the right side of the yellow gem is shown on the second from bottom, and apparently vice versa.
I haven't tried this in game yet, as I'm trying to figure out how to arrange these things, like if I can't make the alternates work properly, I might just re-number the whole set so each variation becomes a unique piece. This was supposed to be a simple test, but clearly a bit more complex.
Quote:
As I pointed out before, bridges are also a special case where the random selection is instead used to for the damaged logic. The damaged/repair is also coded to only work with specific tile sets. So while looking nice these bridges cant be made to fully work.
Like I said, I'm not worried about the logic, these would be for decorating a map, such as a poorer/ghetto section with damaged overpasses...
And if you're right about the random 1x1 tile being random, that doesn't explain what's going on here, these pieces are 2x5 and clearly several tiles are being switched. _________________ http://www.moddb.com/mods/scorched-earth-ra2-mod-with-smart-ai QUICK_EDIT
If the logic for those bridges work the same as actual tile variations from AutoLAT, then I think you might need to reconsider your design.
The thing is that the game always recalculates the AutoLAT tiles, it just sees a grass tile, next to it a pavement tile; oh, let's randomly select one of the a-g transition tiles. There is no indication which one is used.
So if it is indeed the same as the normal tiles, you're best bet is to resize the grafitti to fit a single cell.
That way nothing can get cut off.
But mind that it's just a thought as bridges use a different logic.
Did you test this in-game? Are the issues present there, too? _________________
RP: As you know the original bridge columns are used with water tiles, so there's no MM or Morphable specified... and my hope is that the entire alternate piece is used rather than a few tiles from it only.
G-E, I don't see what Marble Madness or Morphable properties have to do with it.
I think you'll get the definitive answer when you test it in-game.
I'm looking forward to the results! _________________
I don't think you can rely on anything other than the game when it comes to this tiling.
I mean my suggestions are based off of some experience, so are the CNC-Map-Render's logics. _________________
FA2 has always displayed large random tiles in this chaotic fashion & there is nothing you can do to fix it. It has no effect ingame tho & is limited to only the bridges (as LKO pointed out) & new custom made tile sets like the one you have made.
BTW; when you place a tile with multiple versions in FA2 it only places the first tile on the map (fover03), FA2 only emulates the random selection. When the game loads the map it will look to see if there are any other tiles (fover03a, fover03b). & then randomly pick one of them.
Because the alternative random tiles are only read when the map loads it is possible to add or remove them without breaking any existing maps. _________________
Guys look at the second picture, top right, the pink graffiti is shown complete one of three only. The only reason I showed the render is to confirm what FA2 is showing, which is mixed up tiles.
Mig: Explain how FA2 is not placing the alternates on the map when you can save and reload the same ones? Yes the game recalculates them, but as far as FA2 is concerned, the map contains the alternates as placed...
Mig: Explain how FA2 is not placing the alternates on the map when you can save and reload the same ones?
Just tested it to confirm; Loaded the same map several times in FA2 & the random tiles were different each time.
Well that's super... but FA2 still does save them mixed, and the Maps-Renderer reads them mixed up, and so does the game. That means FA2 is writing them a certain way, but that all 3 are also recalculating each time they encounter any of the variations.
This means that regardless of which tiles you end up seeing, you still see them mixed up. I confirmed this comparing multiple renders as well.
Now I have discovered a further issue, in that FA2 is a smartass, it somehow knows which of my re-numbered tileset (all unique numbers) are actually alternates.
The above map was done with my tileset overriding the 0095 NEWY*.URB rubble tileset which has 23 tiles.
Weird, apparently I hadn't deleted some alternate tiles from the set and FA2 somehow decided which belonged to which but didn't match. Anyway, that issue is resolved, all tiles available _________________ http://www.moddb.com/mods/scorched-earth-ra2-mod-with-smart-ai QUICK_EDIT
I confirmed this comparing multiple renders as well.
That kinda confirms my point as well. The tiles are different in each of them, thus it's not saving a specific tile/cell to the map, only that it should use one of the variations.
You shouldn't re-numbered or override any of the existing tile sets, doing so can break all existing maps. You can add up to 999 tile sets, which is more then anyone will ever need so there is little reason to risk breaking the game.
BTW I noticed that on the one ingame pic you provided you were suffering from the bug I mentioned earlier that the first cell of the tile gets randomised separately from the rest of the tile, that's why it's "wonky/uncertain". To fix this you'll need to move any extra images attached to the first cell to another & then add an extra image to the second cell that covers the first, then ingame you'll see the extra image instead of the random cell beneath. _________________
I confirmed this comparing multiple renders as well.
That kinda confirms my point as well. The tiles are different in each of them, thus it's not saving a specific tile/cell to the map, only that it should use one of the variations.
What appears to be happening is that FA2 writes parts of your multi-tile object, with other tiles written as parts of alternates. So what you may see is the left 2 tiles belong to alternate A, the middle 3 belong to B, and so on. THEN the game reads the first alternate, recalculates for those tiles, bumps into the next tiles using a different alternate, and recalculates that independently. Which means it is recalculating it, but piece by piece.
As a mapper I've used many copy/paste tricks to create things you can't by respecting tileset sizes/shapes, which is more or less the same thing, just without the tiles being recalculated.
Mig Eater wrote:
You shouldn't re-numbered or override any of the existing tile sets, doing so can break all existing maps. You can add up to 999 tile sets, which is more then anyone will ever need so there is little reason to risk breaking the game.
Here I would tend to agree with you, except the RA2 urban theater at least contains tons of unused junk tilesets, you know the ones they scribbled over...
Mig Eater wrote:
BTW I noticed that on the one ingame pic you provided you were suffering from the bug I mentioned earlier that the first cell of the tile gets randomised separately from the rest of the tile, that's why it's "wonky/uncertain". To fix this you'll need to move any extra images attached to the first cell to another & then add an extra image to the second cell that covers the first, then ingame you'll see the extra image instead of the random cell beneath.
You mean one of my corner cliffs? The base tile creating a black triangle even though it's behind the extraimage of another tile, I have to make a complete base tile including part of the other tile's extraimage for that one. Or did you see something else? QUICK_EDIT
The bridge sections in the top right here. The first cell + extra image in the left corner is different from the rest of the tile.
@LKO: To my knowledge no one has added more then 255 tile sets to RA2 yet & if they have they haven't reported that bug, so it's unconfirmed but possible. _________________
I see no reason to assume RA2 supports more than 256 tilesets, and would likely support 256 pieces per set if it wasn't limited by filename.
Anyone familiar with the mappack can probably elaborate, but each tile should be represented by: tileset number + piece number in tileset + tile number in piece. _________________ http://www.moddb.com/mods/scorched-earth-ra2-mod-with-smart-ai QUICK_EDIT
Anyone familiar with the mappack can probably elaborate, but each tile should be represented by: tileset number + piece number in tileset + tile number in piece.
Tileset numbers are not referenced in map pack, only tile numbers (starting from 0, every tile in every tileset in the theater is numbered based on order listed with assumption that every tileset has TilesInSet amount of tiles regardless of if the files are present or not) and of course the subtile index in tile/tmp. This is also why changing tileset's TilesInSet value, removing tilesets entirely etc. messes up maps. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Tileset numbers are not referenced in map pack, only tile numbers (starting from 0, every tile in every tileset in the theater is numbered based on order listed with assumption that every tileset has TilesInSet amount of tiles regardless of if the files are present or not) and of course the subtile index in tile/tmp. This is also why changing tileset's TilesInSet value, removing tilesets entirely etc. messes up maps.
So you're saying every individual square tile in the tilesets is given a unique incremented number? 32bit integer? QUICK_EDIT
Just curious, 16bit or 32bit number? 64k squares vs beeelions...
Although it does confirm that each tile has a unique reference, and allows exactly what I was suggesting by writing parts of alternate tiles to the map -- which get recalculated separately after. _________________ http://www.moddb.com/mods/scorched-earth-ra2-mod-with-smart-ai QUICK_EDIT
I have been suffering this exact issue recently. I tried adding alternative shore tiles but ingame each cell is randomized separately, rather than the whole tile. However apparently Starkku does have multiple cell tiles that randomize fine, so I'm not sure exactly what the issue is. Part of me thinks perhaps FA2 is somehow reading my tiles wrong and places them as individuals (such as when doing cut n paste) so it is no longer one big tile ingame. QUICK_EDIT
This is what IsoMapPack5 contains.
It contains location and the exact tile that is in the cell.
FA2 can most likely not mess this up, all tiles are individually saved as shown above. _________________
Part of me thinks perhaps FA2 is somehow reading my tiles wrong and places them as individuals (such as when doing cut n paste) so it is no longer one big tile ingame.
I'm sure this is exactly what happens, it will mix cells from the various alternates. I also confirmed this happens on 2-wide cliff faces as well, so the pieces don't have to be very large at all to manifest this issue.
Now there seems to be some bias towards using the base tile more than alternates when it gets re-calculated by the game, but there doesn't seem to be a way to alleviate the issue entirely. Even confining your variations to individual cells won't fix it because of the extraimage overlap. QUICK_EDIT
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Alternate tile splitting?
