Survey regarding faith

NiGhtPiSH · Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 5:33 pm Post subject:

Clazzy wrote:

Quote:

I belive that there is a superior mind that controls us. And just a question: Do you know how the cells have been created? All the mollecular structures that work more or less like a modern day factory? Ever wonderd how DNA was created? And jus another puzzle thee are no preoteins without DNA and no Dna without proteins

Amino acids and proteins can be made under the natural conditions of the Earth hundreds of millions of years ago, experiments have been done to show this. You have to remember that life evolved very slowly over a very long time. Evolution is just a set of small adaptations that give certain life forms superiority over others (e.g. giraffe necks slowly got longer so they could eat the leaves higher up acacia trees). The eyeball would have started with a simple light-sensitive chemical and would have changed to something more complicated. Not being a biologist I can't really give you that much detailed information, but regardless it is perfectly possible and highly plausible, hence why so many people believe it.

You have right, but without DNA the proteins won't be meaningful. Their functions in the cell's systems are determined by the genetic code, but where and how the hell was the DNA created, the molecule is far more spohisticated than any of today's supercomputers. It works in very strict algorithms, that generate information and translate and transcribe it to other molecular structures like the vacuola or the endoplasmic net.

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Clazzy · Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 5:41 pm Post subject:

You make it sound like DNA was always this huge strand, it just started with a simple structure (nucleic acid or whatever) and expanded from there. If you really want to know, would a degree in biochemistry not be to your liking?

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Dubzac · Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 8:17 pm Post subject:

bah clazzy chemistry isn't perfect nor is region that doesn't justifly that anything, including how laws came to be and civisations came to be.

all you people are talking about is creation in which i might add most of you are just guessing.

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Clazzy · Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 8:41 pm Post subject:

Chemistry is closer to perfection than religion, we can predict the outcome of a chemical reaction under certain conditions, there are equations that define all areas of chemistry and every single happening in chemistry can be answered with physics. It complies with electromagnetism, thermal physics, quantum mechanics and more. For all intents and purposes, chemistry helps us explain the world around us quantitatively.

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Dubzac · Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 12:05 am Post subject:

you still didn't answer the question clazzy

in you own option how do you think laws came about to goverments and national law for atheist people this is something they woun't or can't anwer why ?.

all the current laws like the seven commandments all extist in law today correct ?.

evolution is different because its only based on creation correct ?.

like duh Chemistry and religion go hand in hand they a nether against or opposed to each other because each can only go so far in explaining the other that's why theres no out come correct ?.

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The DvD · Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 12:08 am Post subject:

Laws and civilizations came to be because the human mind is capable of creating them.

Dubzac · Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:39 am Post subject:

true but a group of minds can inforce laws it not just one?.

as for civilizations you need group of people that *beleave* in such a thing religion is a image of a civilization.

note im just opening the point of a open mind thought again to be neural*

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IcySon55 · Commander **Joined**: 19 Nov 2003 **Location**: Overworld

Dubzac58 wrote:

note im just opening the point of a open mind thought again to be neural*

Maybe next time, you can open the point of a dictionary so we can understand what you're saying. Rolling Eyes

Clazzy · Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 5:01 pm Post subject:

Quote:

you still didn't answer the question clazzy

You didn't ask a question.

Quote:

in you own option how do you think laws came about to goverments and national law for atheist people this is something they woun't or can't anwer why ?.

If I've translated this into correct English, the response is something like this:
Any society needs a set of rules, culture and some form of system like this in order to survive. Even animals have primitive societies like this (although not on the scale of humans) and they most likely don't believe in a God.

Quote:

all the current laws like the seven commandments all extist in law today correct ?.

Let's have a look at the TEN commandments:
You shall have no other gods before Me.
You shall not make for yourself an idol.
You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God.
Remember the Sabbath day, and keep it holy.
Honour your father and your mother.
You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.
You shall not covet your neighbor's wife or house.

To my knowledge, only three of them are considered wrong in most modern societies.

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evolution is different because its only based on creation correct ?.

Evolution is NOT based on creationism, it's totally the opposite to creationism. Have you paid attention to this discussion?

Quote:

like duh Chemistry and religion go hand in hand they a nether against or opposed to each other because each can only go so far in explaining the other that's why theres no out come correct ?.

What can religion explain that chemistry can't?

Quote:

true but a group of minds can inforce laws it not just one?.

as for civilizations you need group of people that *beleave* in such a thing religion is a image of a civilization.

note im just opening the point of a open mind thought again to be neural*

What? En anglais, s'il vous plait. It's hard to respond to comments when they're poorly punctuated and full of bad spelling.

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Team Black · Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 5:35 pm Post subject:

My thesis on Faith, I wrote this in a facebook discussion some time ago
(perhaps we should start a fresh, new thread for this?)
You might notice some fragments in the structure, that's because I melded several separate responses into this one:

It begins with an assumption that everyone's goal is to live in a way to benefit society in the best way possible. If you don't agree with that, well, I'm afraid you're at a loss, this thesis will be useless to you;

As for everyone else:
A person's beliefs are based on their own views on the best way to live for the greatest benefit of society.
Those who aren't, simply put, are selfish; they care more about doing it THEIR way than to help out humanity as a whole.
Yes, that sounds a tad offensive, but it's true
I mean, in order for a good society, everyone needs to find beliefs that help improve it and live by them, whether it's Islam, Christianity, the Force, whatever.
If their beliefs DON'T improve society, what is the purpose of believing them?

Now the complicated part is how do you know what works and what doesn't?
Treat it like a hypothesis, test your beliefs, trust its claims, if it claims you can fly with a broom, jump off a roof and find out for yourself, If you're sure enough to argue your belief, you must be sure enough to put yourself at its mercy; If your belief is right, you should have no reason to worry.
I recall a quote, though I forgot its owner:
"If [a belief] isn't worth dying for, it's not worth living for"

for example the 9/11 terrorists, they died for their cause, so they must have believed it pretty strongly. However, it contradicts the first statement, that beliefs should provide for a better society, and I think you will agree that the 9/11 attacks had a NEGATIVE impact on society, therefore their beliefs were wrong.

Wrong belief. That's a harsh statement, but there's truth in it. A belief should improve society. I don't know of a well-functioning society where terrorism is promoted...

So what happens if you find a belief DOES work, that you're sure to death of, and provides for a better society? It should be obligatory to SHARE IT for society's benefit. It would be as if someone found a treatment for cancer, and hid it to themselves all their lives, people would die for the want of your knowlege.

Another thesis I have, as offensive as it may sound, there's only room for one truth (though whether YOUR belief is right or wrong is up to YOU and only YOU to judge, it's not my place or anyone else's.

"Religeon is solely between a [person] and [his or her] God/god.."
--Thomas Jefferson, the The Establishment Clause);

A classic example is that some believe the universe is created by God, others think it created itself, and progressed over time.
They couldn't have BOTH happened (though some say God created the world to evolve, mixing both theories; The Bible claerly states that it's not possible, though I won't get into that now)
Which is right? The truth is that no one knows for sure exactly how the universe came into exsistence, But the one thing we do know for sure is that it exsists now, and therefore there must be an explaination for it.

There must be one truth, and each person's purpose in the world is to persue it with an open mind, and live by it.

The really complicated part is how to search for the truth, and how to recognize it should it be found.

My theory is that the truth right and wrong is defined by its impact on society; murder destroys society, beaurocracy destroys society, envy, adultry, etc. 'evil' as defined by popular opinion.
I recognized that these all relate to selfishness; destroying someone else for personal gain whether on a large or small scale.
"right" therefore must be the opposite: love as sacrificing something for the gain of someone else. Generosity, heroism, etc.

I've studied the Bible (yes, I'm credible, I read it at least three times through) and found it promotes this very thing, the most obvious example being the ten commandments, also promoted by Jesus Christ (paraphrased...)
"The two greatest Commandments:Love God, and love mankind"
"No one has any greater love than to lay down your life for your friends"
I wrote an essay on love, as spoken of in the Bible, in my Myspace Blog
Also look in 1 Corinthians 13, and 1 John 4.
Basically, love is a sacrifice of your desires for the benefit of someone else, and that is the core idea promoted in Biblical Christianity.
But it's only true if it's proven to really work.

I heard the United States was referred to once as the 'great expirament' (you can look this up if you want) in which the founding fathers of the country wanted to see just how well a country will do if it is established on the principles in the Bible. (Thomas Jefferson, an atheist, even admitted the MORALS of the Bible are neccesary for a good nation to function, this may also be found in the The Establishment Clause). I think the results speak for themselves, as it was enough to transfrom and guide a bunch of poor colonies into a wealthy and prosperous power of the world.
Yes, it was also based on other's such as John Locke and the Enlightenment, the Mayflower Compact, and some others. Even in these though, there are traces of the Biblical views of morality.

Another example of a nation based on the Bible is the old testament Israel, the peak of which was Solomon's reign where (in paraphrase) "siver was cosidered as worthless as stones, for the land was so wealthy". After that though, the nation took a negative turn when it turned its back on God, and suffered from divisions, infighting, povery. Eventually it became so weak that it was captured by Babylon, and the people were brought into slavery.

Now for the Bible to be even remotely correct, it is imporant to realize that it was written over thousands of years, in times of poverty and wealth, in several different countries, even by different cultures. Yet even in all this it remains consistent from cover to cover, that is, that it doesn't contradict itself.
It also contains prophesy; predictions of the future such as the re-establishment of the state of Israel, that couldn't have been merly guesses (though I don't want to get into this now)
Also, as I mentioned before, its principles have been proven to work.

This can only mean two things:
The Bible is a great undiscovered conspiracy, and has been hidden through a flawless, working plan through all the difficulties I mentioned above,
or
That it was inspired by a God who created the universe and mankind, and knows what's best for it.
that this God loves His creation so much that He become part of it (as Jesus Christ), allowed it to abuse Him in its rebellion (to crucify Him), and to all for the goal of saving it all from perishing in Hell (taking the punishment of its rebellion on Himself so those who belive won't suffer)

This is my theory, it's up to evey person to test it, to search it, to challenge it with an open mind, and see for themselves if it is indeed the ultimate truth...

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Alex06 · Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 12:20 am Post subject:

This can only mean two things:
The Bible is a great undiscovered conspiracy, and has been hidden through a flawless, working plan through all the difficulties I mentioned above,
or
That it was inspired by a God who created the universe and mankind, and knows what's best for it.
that this God loves His creation so much that He become part of it (as Jesus Christ), allowed it to abuse Him in its rebellion (to crucify Him), and to all for the goal of saving it all from perishing in Hell (taking the punishment of its rebellion on Himself so those who belive won't suffer)

First one is right. Well, it was probably just some legends or a book/lots of texts containing hypotheses on Science (which eventually beat the Bible in some parts and will one time completely destroy religion). The simple reason why it became such a big deal is because of the middle-age. Heck, what if it was a conspiracy in the middle age and was used to put the people to obey the king without anyone going against them due to the fact the Apocalypse was coming. Hey, Religion was proved wrong. Numbers are just Random numbers without a Scientific equation to prove it. And to prove it, you'd need to time travel there and see the event itself. But that's impossible.

I'm sure the bible is some kind of silly thing, like a book for kids, which we all ended up believing. We'll be really angry when we discover it was a little nothing, I'm sure.

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Clazzy wrote:

So the richer, more educated people are more likely to be atheists? If that's what you're trying to show, that doesn't really say much positive about religion in general. Of course, I wouldn't say that you've shown that from this poll.

This poll is supposed to portray what upper middle/ middle class people think/believe in this topic regarding faith. This survey is not categorical nor is it entirely comprehensive. I'm trying hard to stay neutral, and I'm not trying to gain your favor towards religion (actually I hate religion myself; but religion and faith aren't the same mind you).

Clazzy wrote:

Doing a poll like this on this forum is probably quite biased

exactly... technologically oriented people of course need the resources to have gadjets and tech-stuff. and for such resources you have to be earning quite a bit to support yourself and your hobbies. I forgot which income bracket falls but it is safe to assume that you are middle to upper middle class. am I right?
and like I said, this study isn't entirely comprehensive: I wouldn't exactly expect socialites (who most often fall into the upper middle class to elite categories) to be avid posters in this forum. and this survey doesn't cover those who are middle class workaholics (those who have no time for fun #Tongue

) either.

But from the results of this poll (27 votes actually displays a rather rough gradient >.<, I was expecting 50-60 so the curve will be smoother)
it's quite predictable... I was expecting as much Smile

Clazzy wrote:

Well, I had a look and Christians tend to refer to Job 26:7 as proof that the Earth is spherical in the Bible. I can't see how it or the surrounding verses explain it, I would actually think that 26:9 would be showing the Earth is flat.

hmm, that's not quite the verse and chapter I had in mind... although it does support the 'heavenly spheres' verse I read somewhere. I'll post the verse when I find it. it goes "...just as the heavenly spheres revolve/spin/hang (I can't remember the exact verb)...". I'll look for the passage and if you can too I'll be grateful Smile

Clazzy wrote:

If the Bible mentioned that the Earth went around the sun, then why did (during the Dark Ages) virtually everybody except most Eastern countries believe that the Earth was flat?

that's easy to answer. (Oh boy, I didn't want to go this far; to anyone offended forgive me in advance Neutral

) Nobody really read the Bible during the middle ages. The Roman Catholic church forbode people from reading the Bible. They instilled their own dogmas that weren't even IN the Bible. If you're familiar with the Bible, Jesus said and claimed that 'No one can come to the Father except through me' meaning that He is the only way to heaven othewise you go to hell. then the RC comes up with the purgatory thing that basically says you can actually spend some millenia of punishment to help your relatives get to heaven and shorten their stay in purgatory. and then there's 'for For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves' meaning it is only by God's mercy are we saved. Then the RC comes up with if you do things for the HOLY MOTHER CHURCH you can get to heaven. Hello, crusades anyone? inquisition anyone? holy war anyone?
Those who did read the Bible and tried to oppose the Church's teaching were branded as heretics and faced the Iron maiden, got their guts ripped out by hooks, got stretched 5 inches taller by horses among other things.

Matin Luther read the Bible and was shocked by how much the church's dogmas differed from the Bible. If you ask me, the church used the Bible as it's sort of mind control pill. They convinced people that 'ooooh this is what papa Jesus wants you to do to get to heaven (in gentle condescending voice)' and people, fascinated with death and curious of the afterlife jumped into the bandwagon in the hopes that they'll live forever and I can go on and on and on.

Clazzy · Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 5:32 pm Post subject:

Quote:

This poll is supposed to portray what upper middle/ middle class people think/believe in this topic regarding faith. This survey is not categorical nor is it entirely comprehensive. I'm trying hard to stay neutral, and I'm not trying to gain your favor towards religion (actually I hate religion myself; but religion and faith aren't the same mind you).

Fair point.

Quote:

exactly... technologically oriented people of course need the resources to have gadjets and tech-stuff. and for such resources you have to be earning quite a bit to support yourself and your hobbies. I forgot which income bracket falls but it is safe to assume that you are middle to upper middle class. am I right?

Indeed I am, although as a student you could argue otherwise #Tongue

. To be honest, I would expect most users of the internet to be middle-class, but that is slowly changing as computers and internet connections are becoming cheaper.

Quote:

hmm, that's not quite the verse and chapter I had in mind... although it does support the 'heavenly spheres' verse I read somewhere. I'll post the verse when I find it. it goes "...just as the heavenly spheres revolve/spin/hang (I can't remember the exact verb)..."

It's quite baffling that people believed the other planets were spherical yet didn't really think the same about our own.

As for the final bit, you're probably right there but I doubt most priests were bad people. Maybe the more higher-ranked people were corrupt, but the more down-to-earth probably had a strong belief in trying to help others and telling what they believe to be the truth, rather than distorting it. I don't know, perhaps I just expect too much good from people.

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Clarkson · Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:06 pm Post subject:

Hey, Im just gonna hop on here and address TB's post.(bored here, need somethin to do.)

for example the 9/11 terrorists, they died for their cause, so they must have believed it pretty strongly. However, it contradicts the first statement, that beliefs should provide for a better society, and I think you will agree that the 9/11 attacks had a NEGATIVE impact on society, therefore their beliefs were wrong.

To OUR society the 9/11 attacks, the spanish train bombing, the London bombings were wrong, sure, But not to the majority of their society. The terrorists and most Koran-bangers(doesnt sound as good as bible-bangers) in the middle east(Iran for example) Felt that it was done for the good of Allah and that those men were martyrs and had died for a nobel cause. The world is not one single society in ideologies.

It also contains prophesy; predictions of the future such as the re-establishment of the state of Israel, that couldn't have been merly guesses (though I don't want to get into this now) You could say this, but this state can fall just as easily as it was established. Look at Russia, nobody imagined that the Soviet Union would come apart(Henry Kissinger even said 'Yesterday is the day of the United States...Today is the Day of the Soviet Union' or something to this effect) in such a simple and pathetic matter. Nations are born, nations die. It happens.

'I think the results speak for themselves, as it was enough to transfrom and guide a bunch of poor colonies into a wealthy and prosperous power of the world.' Through the slaughter of countless Native Americans, the denial of african american rights untill the 1800s, discrimination toward Chinese-Americans, the overthrowing of neutral Native states for the sake of money. German-American discrimination during WWI,Women gaining the right to vote in the early 20th century, Japanese-American interment during World War II, McCarthyism, Islamophobia post 9-11, the Middle Class dissapeering in a nation where garbage news dominates the airwaves(Celebrity news,and just petty shit.) while important international things go ignored? An education system going to shit compaired to international standards. Great country here. Smile

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