Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 11:57 am Post subject:
From RA to TD
This is for those who think there are too many plot holes in between RA and TD for RA to be a good prequel to TD.
For those who still don't get it, TD follows the allied RA victory. With the soviet victory Stalin is killed and because Kane was Stalin's right hand, he'd naturally take Stalin's place. If this would've happened, Nod would dominate world wide and GDI could've never been created.
Now about the issues because of which RA supposedly couldn't be a good prequel to TD...
Let's start off with the units in TD, that were still in use since RA.
In RA, the soviets were really ahead of their time when it comes to tanks. So, when the allies took the plans of the Mammoth Tank (which is how GDI most likely got it in the first place), it was more advanced than anything they could've developed themselves and that makes it very hard for them to develope a better tank. Possibly in TD the armor and/or firepower was improved a little.
There's of course still the medium tank. Well, nothing says it's really the same medium tank you see in RA; the name could simply be the same.
Here's a theory (a little story I just made up ) on how GDI and Nod could've ended up with certain units and what happened with certain technology:
During Red Alert Stalin ordered the scientists who developed the Iron Curtain to create a weapon against it to make sure the Iron Curtain would only be useful to them.
Eventually, when the allies won, they took the plans of the iron curtain, but naturally it was of no use to them. The Iron Curtain did contrubute to the developement of the Firestorm Wall however.
The Chronosphere appeared to have too dangerous side effects, so it was gotten rid of.
After the defeat of the soviets, the allies took all the plans of the soviets they could find. Plans that appeared to be of no use ware later stacked in a safe, together with obsolete plans.
The plans for the light tank went into this safe right away (they already had the "medium tank", so the light tank was worthless to them.
When GDI developed the MLRS, the plans for the V2 and artillery also became obsolete and were put in the safe as well.
When the Orca was developed, the same thing happened to the apache.
Before TD, Nod was a small terrorist organisation. Nod was behind a lot of sneaky terrorist attacks, using only light, fast or stealthy units (like the buggy, recon bike and stealth tank). This was until GDI was formed; Nod's fast and stealth units could often manage to outrun GDI's units, but whenever there was a confrontation, Nod's units stood no chanse.
Because of this, Nod decided they needed some heavier weaponary too and they infiltrated a GDI base. Nod learned about the safe where the obsolete plans were kept and stole them. All units probably had small armor and/or firepower upgrades.
The V2 eventually changed into the SSM Launcher, which was more efficient and effective. Unfortunately the Heavy Tank wasn't in the safe yet (though it did become obsolete later on, it was expensive and the existance of the Mammoth Tank made it pointless to keep it).
- - -
That's prettymuch all I could think of right now, tell me if there's anything else.
I hoped this changed the minds of some of you. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Red Alert and TD were not meant to be officially linked together. The Kane appearance was little more than a wink to the fans. There's a bunch of other contradictions like TD being based on post-WW2 borders. The Tiberian universe was not made with Red Alert in mind and there would need to be some drastic changes in the canon storyline to make it fit in, which was attempted with Renegade 2 that got canned. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
There is no such thing as post world war 2 boarders in relation to RA. Everything was as is before ww2. And other loop holes will be discussed later because at present im making a mod called Before the Storm and its set 5 years or so before the mereorite strike at the river tiber but is heavily influenced by RA1. So effectivly its between RA1 and TD and completely erasing RA2 for a realistic, serious but fun to play alturnative. I'm not going to focus on the story as of yet but it's going to finish this discussion once and for all, hopefully. RA2 just added fuel to the fire of this discussion by creating confussion. step back, look at the bigger picture and be flexible with your thinking. And bittah good job on the story but it's going to have to be more deeper to be more convincing. I'll see what i can come up with but i hate politics lol. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 30 Aug 2005 Location: Taking up space inside the TibWeb server
Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:32 pm Post subject:
@ Dregan: Since WW2 never happened, if you do a campaign map be sure to include things like East Prussia which would have been there if Westwood had given a crap about historical accuracy. They obviously didn't, but the game was incredible anyway, so who cares? Overlooked little things like that are what we have modders for. _________________ This mod is dead!
I figured it'd be best to ignore RA2 myself, because it really doesn't properly fit in anywhere and makes the C&C story as a whole less serious (some for C&C3 btw, but that's of no importance now).
However, Adam Isgreen (AKA Ishmael on the Petroglyph Games forum) gave away some information about how some facts were according to Westwood Vegas' story (the original story) and some of their intentions. Red Alert 2 was made by Westwood Pacific (EA Pacific now), of which most staff have now also contributed to C&C3 (most of Westwood Vegas' staff moved to Petroglyph, as you probably know).
Adam Isgreen told where they (Westwood Vegas) intended to place Red Alert 2 (WW Pacific's creation) on the time line:
In Tiberian Incursion (which was intended to be the sequel to Tiberian Sun) someone would mess around with time again (like einstein did before Red Alert, which resulted in the creation of the C&C universe) and a new universe would be created; Red Alert 2 would happen in this universe. This is the best explanation I've heard so far, but unfortunately this was Westwood Vegas' idea and not EA's (Westwood Pacific's), so they probably won't do it this way.
I know the little story I made up could be deeper by the way, but I just wanted to give some quick explanations why certain technology is the way it is in TD.
@Gecko:
You're right about that TD wasn't created with Red Alert in mind (while it was created with Tiberian Sun and Tiberian Twilight in mind), but Red Alert was created with Tiberian Dawn in mind however. A lot changed after TD was released: TD was intended to be part of a trilogy when it was being developed; TD, TS, TT, but during the development of RA this idea was dropped and changed to RA, TD, TS, TI, ...
And by the way, we're discussing Westwood Vegas' story line, not Westwood Pacific's/EA's (it isn't even really clear what their storyline is exactly like; it has been messed up too much to tie together properly).
My intention only to convince the ones who feel RA and TD can't connect (even though it has officially been stated in the manual and by ex-Westwood Vegas staff) that it really can. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Well, GDI getting their weapons is explained pretty nice by Bittah.
About Nod however, I have a more probable theory that stealing old plans. Buy old tech. You know how the US and other countries sold their old equiptment after WW2 to different regimes? What if the US, UK, France and Germany did exactly that after RA1? Nod has tons of money and needs weapons. Those nations / arms dealers / corrupt generals need money, so they sell it to the highest bitter. And voila, that is why Nod receives armour via planes - they just buy it. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 25 Aug 2004 Location: DAS BOOT IM DER OSTSEE
Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:32 pm Post subject:
geekspeek wrote:
They obviously didn't, but the game was incredible anyway, so who cares? Overlooked little things like that are what we have modders for.
Lol wuuut? nobody mods RA anyways so thats pointless, yet you try to overlook, say, lack of mechs in TW, you get bitched to forever.
Bittah Commander wrote:
In RA, the soviets were really ahead of their time when it comes to tanks. So, when the allies took the plans of the Mammoth Tank (which is how GDI most likely got it in the first place), it was more advanced than anything they could've developed themselves and that makes it very hard for them to develope a better tank. Possibly in TD the armor and/or firepower was improved a little.
Fifty years from Red Alert to Tiberian Dawn if it begins in 1996, Sixty+ if its in 2006 or 2007. The German Wehrmacht(I bet I butchered this to hell.) had the most advanced tanks of WWII, sure, but do you see King Tigers rattling along the street? No. Besides, how is Nod, a terrorist faction which held THE MONOPOLY on Tiberium during the first war, and able to develop Stealth vehicles/soldiers, ect, forced to buy AFVs thate are 50 years old? Its absurd. THIRD WORLD NATIONS use 50+ year old tanks. Not a faction that holds a monopoly and is able to develop groundbreaking refining and Stealth technologies.
@El D34dlyto:
I agree, that's indeed more probable _________________ Last edited by Bittah Commander on Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:57 pm; edited 1 time in total QUICK_EDIT
No, but we do see some Soviet era tanks getting updated and used by some countries even today.
And maybe Nod has other plans that just developing Stealth etc.? They need tuberium for other purposes. Plus, those tanks are cheap, easy to get and do the job. Why not use them? QUICK_EDIT
@Carno:
None took the plans for Germany's tanks and aside from that Germany's old tanks aren't as advanced as the soviet tanks in RA (I haven't seen anything that looks even remotely similar to the heavy tank, have you?).
About Nod; they never held the monopoly until after the tiberium meteor crashed on earth; if Nod stole/bought plans for those tanks, they did it before there was any tiberium around on earth. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Also Known As: evanb90 Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Location: o kawaii koto
Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:12 pm Post subject:
*Chronosphere Activated*
We are now in a world where Bittahs logic prevails. This is 2007. The US is in Iraq. However, to muster the equipment, saying there has been no technological development since WWII, and using the superior logic of "OLD TANX R CHEAP", the US Army rushed into production OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAND M4A3E8 Shermans, along with a squadron of Mustang Fighters, and a flight wing of B-17s. the Mother of All Battles, as Saddam Hussein said, was about to begin.
The US Army is proud to announce it is arming it's soldiers with 3 inch bazookas now, a huge step up.
Primary Iraqi-----<static>
You now turn off your huge TV with the mircoscopic screen and knobs. You call someone to fix your TV, as the fuzz is interfering with the black/white display. You use your "cell-phone", which is really a huge dial phone.(forgot the word)
There, our timeline, following Bittah Commander's logic.
EDIT- I love how you compare the Iron Curtain and the Firestorm. Now, I shall compare the Sun to a Monkey. _________________ YR modder/artist, DOOM mapper, aka evanb90
Project Lead Developer, New-Star Strike (2014-)
Former Project Lead DeveloperStar Strike (2005-2012), Z-Mod (2006-2007), RA1.5 (2008-2013), The Cold War (2006-2007) QUICK_EDIT
I think people are overlooking the fact that Medium, Light and Heavy tanks are very generic terms and aren't necessarily the same units.
Westwood reused the graphics because they're lazy sods, I don't really think they knew C&C would take off and be analysed at this level.
Red Alert was a prequel to C&C, that's an officially confirmed fact both formally (there's a C&C FAQ file that says Red Alert is a prequel to C&C) and informally (comments made by staff members in interviews, on forums, whatever).
Why people need to bitch and moan about the fact Westwood didn't make everything match up is beyond me. It's a game for ztype sake. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 25 Aug 2004 Location: DAS BOOT IM DER OSTSEE
Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:20 pm Post subject:
@ Bittah
Big deal. The Germans had the most advanced equipment in WWII, without the Germans we'd probably be behind a few years in technology. You can not deny the impact they presented on modern day technology. :3
But alack, that is not the matter here. The Soviet tank anyways is a true Soviet tank, a T-72 with a second barrel attached to the turret. A logistics nightmare, and totally impratical.
Still, if Nod can produce vehicles with personal cloaking systems, refine laser technology, and chemical weaponry, surely they can upgrade vehicles? :
Soviet Era tanks are obsolete, for the most part. El T-90s and T-80s are decent, still probably not a match for an M1 as GDI has. T-70s and under are just worthless in this modern era of tank warfare. You notice what countries these are?
You can only improve technology once you understand it.
I know the heavy tank is an actual soviet tank, thought the real one was never used (Stalin despised it).
The one in Red Alert might actually be an improved version of it, which is more practical (it wouldn't make sense for the soviets to use it in Red Alert if it wasn't practical).
Even today no practical version of a 2 barreled tank exists, so if the allies got their hands on it (in this case, the Mammoth Tank), it's likely they wouldn't understand the technology, making it impossible for them to improve.
About Nod; stealth and laser technology is different technology. Nod might have simply have had the scientists who developed laser and stealth technology, but not the scientists who were specialized in regular tanks.
I believe Nod only started the use the stealth tank a while after the war began (so it possibly wasn't operation before that yet, or it didn't even exist yet).
GDI really saw Nod as a small terrorist group before the first tiberium war by the way, so it isn't too far fetched to assume they really were a terrorist group only preforming small terrorist operations, is it?
That said, it makes sense for them only to use sneaky, quick and cheap units before the first tiberium war (attack whatever target and get out before anyone can even respond, which worked perfectly until GDI was formed). _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 25 Aug 2004 Location: DAS BOOT IM DER OSTSEE
Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 10:20 pm Post subject:
I wish he would be banned, he really puts a bummer on every topic. No, Bittah? _________________ PPM's Reichstrollfuherer, 236th Trollenparties brigade. QUICK_EDIT
Also Known As: evanb90 Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Location: o kawaii koto
Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:49 am Post subject:
What the hell Gufu?
Oh I get it, he wants his Post Count to be greater.
BTW, as indicated in cutscenes, the Heavy Tank is not a T-72.
The technology made in making a mammoth tank in the fictional universe of RA is not too advanced for the Allies to do anything with. It would require research into how the double barrel tank design works.
Neither side is much more sosphisticated then the other.
Not developing your technology to counter the enemy, and knowing the enemy will beat you head on, that is like knowing that not studying will get you a bad grade, and still not studying. _________________ YR modder/artist, DOOM mapper, aka evanb90
Project Lead Developer, New-Star Strike (2014-)
Former Project Lead DeveloperStar Strike (2005-2012), Z-Mod (2006-2007), RA1.5 (2008-2013), The Cold War (2006-2007) QUICK_EDIT
@Carno: I certainly wouldn't lose any sleep over it.
@EVA-251: maybe, but it's not like another they knew another war was going on. Their focus was just on different technology (for GDI the Ion Cannon, Orca, MLRS...; for Nod the Obelisk, Stealth Tank, SSM Launcher...).
And like I said before, those tanks from RA may very well be improved in TD (better armor and firepower). _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Also Known As: evanb90 Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Location: o kawaii koto
Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:42 am Post subject:
Ok, first of all, the MLRS was not developed by GDI, neither was the Medium Tank, HMVEE, APC, A-10, Chinook, M-16, TOW, Dragon, LAW whatever. Most of the equipment in CNC1 comes from AMERICA.
And before you say a thing, same goes for the Apache, Light Tank, Artillery and alot of other Nod equipment was developed in AMERICA.
The world would not be without conflict and instability just because the "CW" ended in the 50's. _________________ YR modder/artist, DOOM mapper, aka evanb90
Project Lead Developer, New-Star Strike (2014-)
Former Project Lead DeveloperStar Strike (2005-2012), Z-Mod (2006-2007), RA1.5 (2008-2013), The Cold War (2006-2007) QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 24 May 2004 Location: Flanders (Be) Posts:300000001
Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 8:35 am Post subject:
GDI started as a black ops organisation anyway. They're not known for developement of heavy weaponry. Hi-tech maybe, but not your common run-of-the-mill tanks.
And IMO the Mammoth is only based on the Soviet tank in basic design. You bet they had completely redesign pretty much everything about it to get it up to par with modern weaponry. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Dude, look at Renegade - the Dead Six and all. GDI are like the modern day Blue Barrets, just nigger and everywhere.
@EVA-251 - yes, all those weapons are American. Know why? WW was lazy, went to the local museum, searches some books and gave those techs to both GDI and Nod. GDI getting US tech is simply explained - the US is the biggest UN supporter. Nod however, gets outdated US tech from people, who are willing to sell it under the table.
When Nod gets all the money from tiberium, they launch new technologies (as you progress through the campaign that is), but in the start, they have most primitive technology. And once they have regular shipments of light tanks, why stop them? They are fast, relativelly good versus light vehicles and infantry. And continue production on Flame, Stealth tanks, Obelisks etc. It all basis military thinking - if something does the job, you use it. How much would a simple engine update, armor toughening and weapon upgrade cost, compared to a new tank?
@ Desu - dude, drop it. The Nazi's lost becaus they had good weapons, but used them incorrectly. They used much too heavy tanks versus the masses of Soviet and Allied tanks. There was now ay they could have won.
Oh, and all the tech which we see taht looks exactly the same in RA1 as it did in TD - that is jsut lazy WW. IF they had changed the graphics a bit, no one would be complaining at all. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 26 Nov 2002 Location: Algae Colony On Mars
Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:27 am Post subject:
Quote:
I don't delieve GDI was a black ops organisation. GDI is the product of the UN becoming a single entity.
They were. Read the Tiberian Dawn instruction manual or just go here and read the history section. GDI eventually became a fully funded army under the UN in 1995 although it baffles me how they could get such a large army in such a short time. _________________
Quote:
This is sexier than what this forum was supposed to tolerate. - Banshee
Nyerguds' explanation makes perfect sense actually. I already thought that about the Medium tank, but this might just as well also be the case for the light tank, mammoth tank, apc and artillery.
@EVA251:
And guess what? Part of GDI is American. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 25 Aug 2004 Location: DAS BOOT IM DER OSTSEE
Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:37 pm Post subject:
NATO and the United Nations are two seperate thing, first of all, and the United States doesnt allow UN to use its vehicles, most of the UN Peacekeeping force is Euro or Russian equipment. Mi8 HiP transport helicopters, ect...Shit, what does the United Nations use for tanks?
@ Desu - dude, drop it. The Nazi's lost becaus they had good weapons, but used them incorrectly. They used much too heavy tanks versus the masses of Soviet and Allied tanks. There was now ay they could have won.
Horseshit. The Nazis had the best equipment for the beginning of the war and lost soley due to Hitler being a fool. If Hitler listened to his generals and didnt have temper tantrums all the friggen time Stalin, Zhukov, Beria, and numerous other Soviets would have been hanging in Red Square in 1942 and we'd all be speaking Deutsch, Ja? HITLER didnt know how to use the weapons, infact, he let a panzer division sit in reserve during D-day, when, lol wut? those panzers could've kept the Allies on that rock we call England. Good Game, ect. _________________ PPM's Reichstrollfuherer, 236th Trollenparties brigade. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 30 Aug 2005 Location: Taking up space inside the TibWeb server
Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:32 pm Post subject:
UN peacekeeping forces are seldom very heavily armed, but on the rare occasion they do use armored vehicles, I would assume that they use vehicles on loan from their member nations - i.e. German peacekeepers use German tanks, UK peacekeepers use British tanks, etc.
As for how Nod got US technology, I always assumed that the United States fragmented in the late half of the twentieth century (which explains why Nod troops have distinctly American accents in-game), and the two fragments - one GDI, one Nod - have maintained an uneasy truce until now. I always assumed that the Light Tank was a Bradley Fighting Vehicle (still in use by the US today), and the APC was an M113 (Korean War vintage, but again, still in limited use by the US military today). GDI's Medium Tank is either an M1 Abrams (judging by the cameo) or a German Leopard II (which is unlikely because the US would be the primary player in any sort of GDI-like organization, because the US refuses to not run everything). In RA1, I always assumed that light tanks were British Cromwells (famous WW2 light tank) and medium tanks were either American Pershings or German Panzer IVs. In other words, the stuff used by the Allies in RA1 is not the same stuff used in TD. "Medium" and "light tank" are just generic names. There are tons of different types of light tanks in the world. It has also always been my assumption that technology developed pretty much the same way as it did in the real world, just at an accelerated pace (for obvious reasons). Although the contenders were different, there was still a major war in Europe in the 40s (The Great World War Two, portrayed in RA1), as well as a lengthy Cold War-style low intensity conflict between underground Nod supporters and the rest of the world (although, with the Soviet Union rendered little more than an Allied puppet, I am curious as to who our opponent was in the alternate timeline's Space Race) _________________ This mod is dead!
What everyone seems to have not realised yet is that may be the events of RA1 except for einstein going back in time to kill hitler may not have happened around the same time as WW2. It may have happened 20 or 30 years after this.
During this time with increased speed of technology development due to the fact that ww2 never happened lead to the development of the abrams, apache, GPS etc etc and all of the other technological wonders that is present in the timeline. even though important technological discoveries where made during ww2, eg V2 which lead to the space race, radar and jets. Though with the 20 to 30 year gap it seems only natural that technology progressed the way it did in RA from the technology just before ww2.
Einstein worked on the time machine during ww2 so whats to say that the he wasn't working on other techs as well eg radar, gap generation etc so the technology was already there. Before ww2 there was already working prototypes of radars and there was already theories of space travel. So without the destruction of ww2 other like minds that would otherise have been killed congrigated and developed these techs along side einstein and tesla.
Those millions of people that died would have all formed part of a more flourishin population and economy. The mistakes of the past would have been erased only to create new problems. The countries including USSR would have flourished enough that there would have been a need to expand, thus this would have been one of the many motives that lead to the USSR invading europe. I think the origional idea made by ww was what if ww2 never happened. Ok so how could we make a way so that ww2 never happened. the thing though is that ww didn't think about what would the world be like as a consiquence of this. though they looked at this shallowly by saying there was a "power vacuum" but that is not a realistic look at human nature. There needs to be actions that lead to the USSR invading europe in the first place, stalan wasn't stupid.
Also building up an army great enough to take on europe would have taken along time and also logistically speaking a tough challenge. As some result also the effects of ww2 not happening must have in some way created an internal faction of the USSR which is NOD. we all agree thet kane was stalans right hand man right, so he must have been preparing for some uprising to overthrow stalan eg poisoned coffee at end of soviet campaign but the allies took stalan down for him anyway, which lead to an internal power vacuum that puppet leaders filled under the direct control of kain.
I can keep going but i think this will do for now. I wan't to incorporate this in my mod Before the Storm but i hate politics and writing stories lol. To answer any question in regards to the RA timeline, be flexible and ask your self this. What would the world be like without ww2 ever happening, what would the maps be like, what would germany be like with out the berlin wall ever happening, what tech would they have 5, 10, 20 years after the elimination of hitler and the answers will come. Remenber ww2 was a stunt in the overall growth and prosperiy of humanity. It's like syaing if the vietnam war didn't happen, would there still be hippies? Last edited by Mortecha on Sat Apr 07, 2007 2:17 am; edited 1 time in total QUICK_EDIT
Nod wasn't an internal faction of the USSR...
Following the original story (and all of Westwood's original intentions, of which some have been revealed by Adam Isgreen and posted by me in this topic), Kane really is Adam's son Caïn who killed his brother Abel. In Tiberian Dawn it's said that there's a rumor of Nod itself also existing for centuries (years before Christ even). Seeming it's said this is only a rumor it doesn't have to be true, but I'm sure Nod certainly was never part of the USSR. Kane probably infiltrated the USSR and climbed up the food chain until he became Stalin's right hand (Kane had more than enough time to do this, seeming he has been around for that long anyway).
It might not be clear what exactly lead to Stalin invading Europe, but I think he's simply just as crazy as Hitler was. During World War 2 he shot some of his own soldiers for being cowards. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Also Known As: evanb90 Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Location: o kawaii koto
Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:37 pm Post subject:
@the last two people before Bittah- HOLY SHIT GUYS, PARAGRAPHS/LINE BREAKS PLEASE
I dont care...I only read the beginning of each, so--
Geekspeek, do you honestly think the USA would fragment? Something really big would have to happen.
And to make it clear, the RA1 Light Tank is the M48 'Patton', as indicated by a cutscene in the Soviet campaign.
http://www.ea.com/official/cc/firstdecade/us/screens/8_lg.jpg
An Abrams Tank and 2 M48s make 2 Mammoth Tanks go MEEP and run.
In TD, the cutscenes confirm that
APC is M113
Light Tank is M2 Bradley
Medium Tank is Abrams
The other huge issue is with RA1 itself. In WWI, the most advanced weapons for infantry were mortars and machine guns, tanks were a huge new concept and sucked horribly. Planes were emerging as military options and could not even hit 200mph.
In 40 years, suddenly, we got jets, laser guided weapons, guided nuclear missiles, highly advanced tank equipment (all the goodies of an Abrams Tank), touch screens(cutscenes of RA1), 3d rendering abilities with sophisticated computer systems.
Considering the RA1 timeline broke off of ours when Einstein made his changes to it, that makes 8 of those 40 years being realistic tech development of the 20th century. So from 1926 to 1955 or so, we go from dirt primitive to 1980s advanced? _________________ YR modder/artist, DOOM mapper, aka evanb90
Project Lead Developer, New-Star Strike (2014-)
Former Project Lead DeveloperStar Strike (2005-2012), Z-Mod (2006-2007), RA1.5 (2008-2013), The Cold War (2006-2007) QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 26 Nov 2002 Location: Algae Colony On Mars
Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:36 pm Post subject:
Quote:
In 40 years, suddenly, we got jets, laser guided weapons, guided nuclear missiles, highly advanced tank equipment (all the goodies of an Abrams Tank), touch screens(cutscenes of RA1), 3d rendering abilities with sophisticated computer systems.
Considering the RA1 timeline broke off of ours when Einstein made his changes to it, that makes 8 of those 40 years being realistic tech development of the 20th century. So from 1926 to 1955 or so, we go from dirt primitive to 1980s advanced?
The ironic thing is that despite all the advanced in technology they didn't advance with nuclear weapons, yet managed to conquer temporal physics and whatever the Iron Curtain would be classified as. _________________
Quote:
This is sexier than what this forum was supposed to tolerate. - Banshee
lol well EVA if you read the whole thing then maybe you'd have to answers to the questions you ask, thats just common sense. And Bittah that about kane i didnt know but its still a logical explanation but he was working his way up USSR's power chain hopefully able to get to the top and eventually control the USSR, we may have also used the USSR as a recruitment base to build nods numbers even though they would have stayed within the USSR to avoid suspition. Bittah that idea works in a way and is a possible lead or stepping stone anyway. What is stalan was already a member of nod and he was just a puppet of kain? QUICK_EDIT
Also Known As: evanb90 Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Location: o kawaii koto
Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 3:29 am Post subject:
Ooh...Much better. *reads*
Well, I am going to be honest, I am only attacking technological development, which in all ways is unexplainable in a realistic way.
Nice post. _________________ YR modder/artist, DOOM mapper, aka evanb90
Project Lead Developer, New-Star Strike (2014-)
Former Project Lead DeveloperStar Strike (2005-2012), Z-Mod (2006-2007), RA1.5 (2008-2013), The Cold War (2006-2007) QUICK_EDIT
Actually, Kane would've needed to allow GDI to be created. He could've just made Yuri work for him so that he'd use Romanov to lead Russia.
Keep in mind it is thanks to GDI that Kane accomplished his plans of making the Scrin come. He had all the plan ready since day 1 of the execution of this said plan, which was in RA. Thanks to GDI, he was able to use the Ion Cannon as a detonator for his Liquid Tiberium trap. That attracted the Scrin to Earth. We still don't know Kane's final plan, but it sure does involve the existance of GDI.
Oh, and apparently, RA2 would've happened after someone messed with a time machine in C&C3 (most likely the Scrin or Kane himself), according the Adam Isgreen from the once-named Westwood Studios. Last edited by Alex06 on Sat Apr 07, 2007 3:55 am; edited 2 times in total QUICK_EDIT
Thanx, though im thinking that kain was using the USSR as a starting point for say global domination. There has to be a way of explaining that and i'm still thinking about it. What where all the other countries doing that wern't featured on RA. Like china for example. I only briefly covered chinas history through high school 4 years ago. would it still have become communist and would taiwan still exist as it does today and what would china be like if it didn't go through the attrocities of ww2. And what about the middle east. I'm going to do some research into these unknowns. we'll pretty much have to rewrite history to cater for what ww couldn't. And alex I'm pretty sure RA2 can't happen though if it does yuri can,t happen it just doesn't seem to fit. Last edited by Mortecha on Sat Apr 07, 2007 3:56 am; edited 1 time in total QUICK_EDIT
Something makes me believe that since Kane can't die, he'd still be back in RA3, and he'd mess up time altogether and recreate the Tiberium storyline. It'd all be a loop. OR, this time, he'd just make it continue from the third tiberium war, instead of RA2 happening and the timeline changing, it would just go on. Eventually this would've happened anyways, because everyone would whine "WE WANT MORE TIBERIUM!!! WE WANT MORE KANE! WE WANT SCRIN AND CABAL, ETC.". That way, Westwood would've made everyone happy and continue the Tiberium series as the only C&C series until it would really be too far and would have to be ended anyways. I guess it's not bad that Westwood died, it was better for them (Now Petroglyph LIVES!...and prospers). The only thing I dislike is the fact WW would've made 2 expansions to C&C3, each adding a new faction. The first one being the mutants and the second one being CABAL. The original game would've followed almost the same plot as now and it would've had the Scrin in it. Keep in mind EA is changing a few things in the storyline. Not that Westwood wouldn't have changed it either, they changed TD ALOT from their original plans, you know...They wanted to actually have the Scrin playable in in TD!
Also, what if Kane seized the USSR to use it for GDI's creation, or as a distraction for his plan with Tiberium? QUICK_EDIT
Command & Conquer is a mix of ideas that make perfect sense, could happen today, and has a link to history (somehow the formation of GDI, or how Soviet Union would attack Europe if there was no Germans in the way), and ideas that were made in a moment's impulse (Two barreled tanks, for example).
Oh and that two-barreled tank in RA1 shortly named "heavy tank" is no existing T-class Russian tank with just an extra barrel, (see the FMVs for proof) it's a whole new class of tanks. The mighty mammoth tank was the next product in this class.
@Alex: I don't care in what universe the next GOOD C&C happens, it can be even Generals...btw...now that the RA2 got it's own universe, what if Generals happened in another universe? Lotsa chronosifting I guess... _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 25 Aug 2004 Location: DAS BOOT IM DER OSTSEE
Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 5:24 am Post subject:
Red Alert 3 better not have a trace of Nod or GDI. We've waited about 6 years since RA2. I do NOT want to see Kane's bald ass in Red Alert. I demand a 'Special Stalin Edition' of RA3, BTW. _________________ PPM's Reichstrollfuherer, 236th Trollenparties brigade. QUICK_EDIT
But if "Red Alert 3" happens, I Kane's damn hope it happens in the Tiberian universe (including RA1) and NOT in RA2 universe. No more shitty Grizzlies and/or Kirovs! I want migs and medium tanks! Mammoths and flamethrowers! _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Well yuri, my mods doing just that. It gets rid of all the unrealistic stuff and brings it back down to reality, with realistic units mixed with the tech of RA1, RA1 influenced and upgraded units, ed mammoth tanks, migs with serious realistic game play why'll maintaining fun to play, simmilar paced gameplay. This will effectivly connect RA to TD cutting out RA2 and replacing it with a realistic alternative. Its called Befort the Storm, there is a forum for it in the mod announcements section. QUICK_EDIT
There's a problem with that though. In between RA and TD there are no great skirmishes; only anti terrorist operations and the like.
Are you following Cypher's CNC Canon by the way? _________________ QUICK_EDIT
I'm not reading all of this because its not worth the effort, but someone saying the light tank is a Patton because of the cutscenes is a nutter.
It's a Bradley in the cameo.
Also, the Mig in the cutscenes has two tailfins (a 29?), whereas the ingame one only has one (can't remember which version this is).
And the heavy tank looks a shagload like a T-80 with an extra barrel to me Yuri. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
No im not lol. I'm following my own interpritations of how things could be done better than what ww did, though theres nothing wrong with ww i think RA2 was a halfassed attempt at this. I'd rather make a mod that reflected the style of play and feel of RA1 but still play a part in the storyline, even though realistically it may be wrong in regards to what ww and EA had in mind it'll still be a good mod.
Now i dont want to get in to a discussion/ debate/ argument etc about real conflicts and the politics/ religions behind them but at the moment would you call iraq a great skirmish of two countries interlocked in head to head fighting on a scale of tactical war. I say no. The same applies i would think to smaller events between RA and TD. Nods covert manipulation of thirdworld countries to build his strength in numbers and his capabilities against those he opposed.
All i have to do is map out what actions he would take, what millitaries he'll make coup there governments, what terror cells he interacts with etc. For all we know in the alternate time line of RA TD he may well be behing the actions of terror cells in the alternate iraq etc. And daz i agree with you on this that this is a waste of time but the more i think and write even though i hate it, the more progress i make in a legitimate storyline. QUICK_EDIT
Geekspeek, do you honestly think the USA would fragment? Something really big would have to happen.
And to make it clear, the RA1 Light Tank is the M48 'Patton', as indicated by a cutscene in the Soviet campaign.
http://www.ea.com/official/cc/firstdecade/us/screens/8_lg.jpg
An Abrams Tank and 2 M48s make 2 Mammoth Tanks go MEEP and run.
No, it doesn't. The Allied forces chronoshift from the back. And Daz is also right, that is not a M48 Patton (typo, ok?), it's a Bradley.
Bittah Commander wrote:
There's a problem with that though. In between RA and TD there are no great skirmishes; only anti terrorist operations and the like.
Exactly. TD starts with the '17th urban bombing', but there could have been other conflicts worldwide, just like after WW2. Those conflicts would have reused mostly Allied and less Soviet equipment, which later would get reused by GDI and Nod respectivelly, as Desu very cleverlly suggested:
Desu wrote:
NATO and the United Nations are two seperate thing, first of all, and the United States doesnt allow UN to use its vehicles, most of the UN Peacekeeping force is Euro or Russian equipment. Mi8 HiP transport helicopters, ect...Shit, what does the United Nations use for tanks?
Desu wrote:
Horseshit. The Nazis had the best equipment for the beginning of the war and lost soley due to Hitler being a fool. If Hitler listened to his generals and didnt have temper tantrums all the friggen time Stalin, Zhukov, Beria, and numerous other Soviets would have been hanging in Red Square in 1942 and we'd all be speaking Deutsch, Ja? HITLER didnt know how to use the weapons, infact, he let a panzer division sit in reserve during D-day, when, lol wut? those panzers could've kept the Allies on that rock we call England. Good Game, ect.
I still think that despite Germany's early successes, it was a matter of time that the Axis lost. Fucked by Japan's attack of the US, Italy's poor soldiers, the growing Ressistance and the imminent disobidience in his troops - it was all a matter of time untill Hitler's army lost. Last edited by Oshog on Sun Apr 08, 2007 8:14 pm; edited 1 time in total QUICK_EDIT
just a quation on this before i post some thing big...or something but...
wasnt RA2 taken place mostly in USA and south america?i mean,yah the soivet march on europe was in ra1,now the march on america in ra2.of-course,things are taking on diffrent time periods,but maybe kane didnt un-leash NOD and GDI wasnt formed just right after stalins death.maybe westwood needs to fix a few time-line persiods....
and maybe,just maybe,some one being able to explain what generals have to do with the cnc universe......just maybe
and dont take me so rationally,it was a quick question and hypothesis _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Thanks Nyerguds. And Friday-13th yeah it was mostly based in America north and south except for YR but seriously how realistic do you think that the USA..... gets invaded by soviets. Its complete and utter crap lol and it doesnt have any traces of kane so effectivly it kind of doesnt fit in trying to discuss relations between RA and TD. And generals i believe is just a stand alone game that has no relation what so ever with the other cnc storylines. QUICK_EDIT
Also Known As: evanb90 Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Location: o kawaii koto
Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 2:49 am Post subject:
I am no "nutter", I know what I see, and I am sure the A Path Beyond development team is basing their stuff correctly.
The cameo, which is CNC I shit, shows a Bradley. That cutscene shows an M48 Patton, not an M2 Bradley or El D34d's M48 Bradley.
If you meant an M2, it HAS NO CHARACTERISTICS OF A BRADLEY. Starting with the turret, which is missing the 25mm, the TOW missiles, the chassis is totally different. _________________ YR modder/artist, DOOM mapper, aka evanb90
Project Lead Developer, New-Star Strike (2014-)
Former Project Lead DeveloperStar Strike (2005-2012), Z-Mod (2006-2007), RA1.5 (2008-2013), The Cold War (2006-2007) QUICK_EDIT
You can post new topics in this forum You can reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum You cannot attach files in this forum You can download files in this forum
From RA to TD
) on how GDI and Nod could've ended up with certain units and what happened with certain technology:
