Joined: 23 Jun 2006 Location: 3rd Rock from the Tiberian Sun
Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 5:04 pm Post subject:
Open Discussion on CnC3s Modding
I'm curious about everyones opinion on this new type of modding forced upon us by EA and how it will affect the modding community, if at all.
This "closed source" modding compared to the "open source" of the previous games.
Are we seeing more and more little mods released with 1 or 2 interesting things added along with a bunch of junk? With no way to combine the mods, will some little mods be wasting space? How many will download a 1 change mod and, no matter how cool that 1 change is, keep playing it?
Some of us that have been modding for years will eventually figure these little changes out for ourselves when we have time. There is so much to learn about the sdk that it's still early in the process. And it does motivate modders to learn more. But for me that wasn't the case in the beginning.
When I started trying to mod years ago I learned by looking at other peoples work to see what they did as examples. Now I don't consider myself to be a great modder, not like the ones that do TCs, but I do consider myself to be above average. My mods are mainly for personal use. To me it's as much about making a game I want to play more enjoyable for myself as it is to say "I did it myself".
This "closed source" will be a great copy protection tool for TCs and, for that matter, everyone. But will it "turn away" potential new modders that might eventually become some of our best, because they initially feel intimidated by the complexity of this game?
Tutorials are the answer, of course. Some great ones are made already, posted at CnC3.net. And then some modders have figured out stuff, but aren't letting anyone else know how they did it. They come ask for help, then when they figure it out, they hush up. Is that acceptable?
Is the modding community about not only sharing finished work, but also information that will benefit that very same community? I'm not talking about TCs or major mods, but holding code just for a small mod that probably won't be played more than once. Is that a waste?
So, what is everyones opinion on this? Is "closed source" modding better or worse than "open source". Tell why you think either is good or bad.
I think saying we're seeing more and more of anything at this stage is ridiculous, the SDK hasn't been out a month yet so of course all we've seen released are small mods.
I'm an absolute machine when I get going and I've not even done a faction's worth of units yet.
I think it's better as it is now.
If someone wants to release their stuff there's nothing stopping them, but people who don't want to have their stuff potentially ripped are protected.
I believe there's a bit of a movement (calling themselves "Open Modding" or something like that) of people commited to releasing their source.
If anything it's going to cut down on the really bad noobs who just nick other people's stuff. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 23 Jun 2006 Location: 3rd Rock from the Tiberian Sun
Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:03 pm Post subject:
I didn't say we were seeing more and more little mods, I asked if people thought they were. As far as that goes, there have already been a few large code mods released. My question was mainly about 1-2 code change mods only, to be a little clearer.
To be honest, this debate really doesn't apply to anything but code. Daz you're talking about a major mod if you're working on a Faction's worth of new models. New models and such would be considered as "protected material" to the artist as they always have been and anyone ripping it off would be dealt with as always. In which case "closed source" is the best way to go. My bad for not clarifying my intent on this debate.
But Daz brings up a very good new question. Does figuring out a EA code and how to implement it constitute "protected material" to the finder? Can code put in by EA and figured out by a modder be "ripped off" by another modder?
While I agree with Daz completely, it also brings up this question. Has the modding community become so riddled with "modding thieves" that the once freely shared information is now restricted to controlled situations and individuals that can be trusted?
I must stress that some modders have released code to help others, their example being the main reason I released the crate code. Nothing much to it but it still might have helped someone.
Daz, you, yourself have helped alot of people with your model tutorials.
Personally I have nothing to gain by keeping anything I find to myself, as most code finds will be figured out and given to the public eventually anyway and I won't be working on a mod that I need to be worried about it being ripped off.
Thanks Daz and anyone else who wants to weigh in please do.
Joined: 14 Aug 2007 Location: Down south, way south!
Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:21 pm Post subject:
I think that for now, while the sdk is still fresh, it would be better if people would help each other out, for example, Daz's tutorials, without them I wouldn't have gotten as far as I am with my mod, I'm always looking back at it when I get stuck, and as for the crate tutorial, I thought it was helpfull, and more we help each other, I think the better the community will be, though many things should be closed source, theres alot that could be opened.
thats my opinion, I hope it came across right
General out _________________ "we must do everything possible to do the Impossible QUICK_EDIT
There's just one "BIG" drawback in this new modding system. The changes i apply through this new system has a limited effect in the single player campaign maps. I say limited coz in most cases i have observed in testing my mod using SP Campign maps, the default units are still there (Tanks, vehicles etc...), or the changes, in this case i have totally replaced "ALL" Air Units of GDI and NOD with new and modified units but when playing the SP Campaign Maps all Air units with modified xml's and corresponding models that i have seen and used in the Multiplayer/skirmish Maps defaults to the original game asstes..... So how's these for a totally powerfull mod sdk that EALA gave us? QUICK_EDIT
Give it a while and them Bin/Relo files will be full cracked. just like CC Mix Manager did all them years ago Mix files. The game is still new, and the SDK is new as it can get.
But as soon as i can get the SDK working, i will researching and posting tutorials as fast as i can, i think tutorials are brilliant. If it was not for people helping and showing me tutorials when i first turned up... i would not be at the level i am today QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 23 Jun 2006 Location: 3rd Rock from the Tiberian Sun
Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:57 am Post subject:
I agree with you TSHyper. I didn't start modding anything until RA and back then those mix files were daunting to me to say the least. But back then when new discoveries were made people couldn't wait to post them and show how it was done. It was like a big think tank. lol
Over the years it's changed of course, due to people passing work off as their own. And in some cases, when confronted, they just blew it off like it's no big deal or denied it. Theft has definately hurt the community IMHO. Luckily there will always be the real honest modders in the majority.
It's still very early in the game with a lot to cover.
This is an issue that I've been thinking of as well.
Back during the early days of TS modding, we ran into the issue with CNC Gold and them having a voxel editor that wasn't shared (it took the community years to make one after that).
I think though that for C&C3 that the community is mature enough, and the coding has steep enough of a learning curve that anyone smart enough to do something worth keeping "locked up" wouldn't be tempted since its of greater benefit to have an open community.
Personally, I know that if there isn't a way to decompile the code by the time we release Mideast Crisis 2...we'll release our source as well on the site. QUICK_EDIT
Its such a nice progress in modding, if we will just put into note the protection it do offers us modders when it comes into the things we want to give easily and those we want to keep coz of the efforts not easily done forthnight (maybe because they're just not yet perfected enough to share and the shame of sharing an unperfected aspect and the likes....)
thus, in my honest opinion, let us nurture this modding trend in its present state and make it grow into something like a fostering brotherhood of like-minded people sharing things they do love in a lifetime we have........ in short, make it into a challenge to learn more...... coz in learning more and sharing what you know makes us have a better world er; in this terms a better gaming experience and a lifetime to do share.........
this time no pun or whatever..... just a wish for us to share one thing in anyway possible to make everything count...
Joined: 01 Jan 2003 Location: You dont want to know.... Trust me.
Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:36 am Post subject:
I believe what he means is that now you cant look at how changes where made. I think this is a bad thing as you cant learn from each other. It makes it harder to learn for new people unless lots of tutorials are made. How I learned to mod TS was seeing how it was done by others and trying it my own way. _________________ No power is ever inherently good or evil. It is how that power is used that determines if it is good or evil.
QUICK_EDIT
The only real drawback from this mod format is that, yes, you can't easily see the changes that were made to apply them to your own mod.
But this could be a good thing, too. Since the SDK Came out, all of the people from the big TW mods have been working together to discover all of the possibilities.
Assassin in particular has been very helpful and he's running TSR, I'm running TD, by all rights we should be at each other's throats as competing mods but at the end of the day, we're happy to exchange ideas and work together.
If this kind of mentality keeps up and spreads, then it'll just make it worth everyone's while to work together and spread ideas.
Ideally what we should have is a proper wiki to document the whole SDK with the things that we find and discover, as well as tutorials and stuff. QUICK_EDIT
Yes, I think we can have the whole open-source/closed-source discussion, which used to be only about mod tools, now for art, XML, etc as well!
In the end, it is up to the authors who do or do not release the source code. And undoubtedly not everyone wants to make their source available. _________________ TibEd 2 for C&C3 experimental QUICK_EDIT
I do think we should differ between tools and "code systems"on one side, compared to mainstream artwork (models, textures) on the other hand.
Tools are essential to even get started on modding, so "privatising" essential tools effectively kills a community.
Creativity in modding comes mainly from code discoveries and the recombination of existing code into a new idea. Breakthroughs and the sharing of those code bits are needed to keep a community vibrant and energetic. If no new exiting things are shared, enthusiasm for modding soon dies away.
But for artwork, I do have a different position on this: all the theft problems we've seen in the community are ARTwork related. What's frustrating is that laziness is the root cause of artwork theft and not the impossibility or the inability to make it...
I have no problem sharing tools and code solutions, but I'm not for sharing art, unless it is on purpose and intentional. QUICK_EDIT
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Open Discussion on CnC3s Modding
As far as that goes, there have already been a few large code mods released. My question was mainly about 1-2 code change mods only, to be a little clearer.
