Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:11 pm Post subject:
New mod without a name
Subject description: Just ideas. modding YR
Hello people
Now i know what you might think, this noob goes here and want another mod done for him with nuclear tesla dogs and flying flak troopers. <= Not quite.
I originally set out to balance the stock game, RA2:YR. I found the default defences useless, and allies had a killer tactic of using prism tanks to wipe out the base without support. Also big air strikes guarantees victories.
What ive changed are basic subtile changes: Increased the range of prism towers and tesla coils, since they are base defences they should be more powerfull/better than their mobile counterparts.
I can honestly say that playing the game is much *MUCH* more fun because you have to actually plan your attack now, you cant just invade a row of prism towers, you have to find a way to take out the power.
Anywas, why am i posting? Because i would like to get rid of Yuri from the game, I think the units are lame and unfair, tactics that spring from this are boring and stupid (this is *just* *my* *opinion* ).
I would like to replace Yuri with a more subtile side. The story i got so far is that a group of leader got bored/sick of the fighting between two major factions and managed to collect resources from both sides through deception and corruption. Therefore they will have weapons simmilar rebel leaders (ICBMs, retrofited trucks, etc.) but their main strength is deception, Their basic unit will be able to move unnoticed in the forests (because they are native to the area) and they are able to hide ambushes, their bases are spread out with weak defense. Still they need some kickass tactics to develop..
So i ask the comunity to come alive and discuss.. But keep one point in mind: This mod needs to embrace the RA2:YR universe, not supress it. And main interest lies in the multiplayer gameplay, there will be no single player. THerefore multiplayer needs to be really balanced and fun to play...
I will post more later, im on a break from work.... and oh crap, i think im late _________________ --
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ok, so you want a rebel side...GLA?
ICBM's are rebel units? ICBM means intercontinetal Ballistic Missile (you'd need a couple of rocket scientists to helop you out literally). I suggest if your balance mod is really that fun, just change yuri to a russian side with like one mind control unit and release a beta. _________________ Please, read the signature rules of the forum. QUICK_EDIT
This mod needs to embrace the RA2:YR universe, not supress it
Yet you want to remove an official faction yet still "embrace" Ra2?
I personally felt yuri was awesome side gamewise..storywise..it was lacking..but its RA2..
but..it really made you think how to approach and attack a base and also make you realize what units to use. Than simply zerg rush your way out of skirmish.
anyways..look into Renegade 2. Soviet Nod? _________________ Delirium.. QUICK_EDIT
@DaFool- Something like GLA, but i dont want to lean over to generals too much. As for ICBMs, this is my idea:
Basically an ICBM (or at least my version) is a massive hunk-o-splosives attached to an engine carried by a lightly armored general support truck. Therefore the tactics come from defending it.
It wont have a great range so you'll have to be standing outside of enemy base beyond their defenses.
The ICBM will be invisible while stationary and moving. (whoa whoa i can sense the discontent, just let me explain). See, to launch successful attack using an ICBM you need a group of troops, group of light units (tanks, bikes, dont know yet). Essentially these will be only groups that will be able to hide while moving. While the units aren't powerful, they will stand against a small guarding force.
The trick here is to distract the enemy long enough to get in position. As soon as an ICBM is in position it will begin to unpack - a slow and highly dangerous process, once unpacked and missile raised it cant be lowered (since its fueled and stuff). Enemy will also see the ICBM now, and maybe get a warning.
Now comes the defense of ICBM, all units hurry to defend it, remember, one artillery shot to the ICBM and its all goes boom. After launch anti air defenses wont be able to hit it, and all you can do is evac.
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Now another tactics twist that came to mind for me just now. Have a character like a Ghost (from starcraft) that need to 'paint' the target with an invisible laser for an ICBM to launch.
That way to launch such attack you will need:
- Cash (about 3000)
- Way into an enemy base for the ghost
- Distraction force
- To multitask the command force, ICBM and Ghost
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@ickus- Yes i would like to remove an "official" faction...... But to keep the spirit of RA2 series. Yes Yuri is gone, we have enough of him, his stupid mind control and..... ok... nevermind.... I don't like him that much.. the only tactic to win him is to have a team of snipers. The side does make you more cautious but then again, to "psychiatric tower" will withstand my promoted prism tanks eh?
Talking of spirit of RA2, everyone noticed the trend that allies and soviets have. I really enjoy how they did it. This is probably one of the first totally politically wrong games in the world. (apart from one of those flash games where you are a terrorist with a task to "cause terror".. anyway)
(I will though use some of the mind control powers for my new side.. like a brainwashing camp or something, where you have to capture the unit by force. As for Yuri prime's abilities, i think we could set something like an insurgent in one of the buildings or something, so not all of Yuri is lost.)
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The mod is already available, I created a little mod management script. anyone is welcome to try, just pm me for the link, or msn.
Thanks alot for ideas. The goal of this mod is not to finish it, but rather to make it alot of fun playing ! even in its early stages, more fun = more motivation to make it even *MoRe* fun =). So yea, if anyone wants a quick game, im on almost all evenings ! _________________ --
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well, Aro, im just going to see what people think. Maybe they will like it, maybe not. I'm not sure. _________________ --
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dammit I wanted my dark RA2:YR..with psycho mantis as yuri. >:O Sofia as a badass combine assassin working for Volkov KGB/Nod and Alyx Vance as the new tanya.
Lol. good luck with the "ghost" idea..easiest way is Boris/father Grigori Logic. but not sure about it working in tandem with the deployed unit plus Super!
Anyways the Missile unit sounds Noddish. cause you know it "cloaks". or burrows..nuke siren is DIG!
but for one faction to only use this tactic? ..unno seems too conventional too me ....plus it was the silliness of yuri's faction that I didn't like plus so many options that the dev's could of used anyways...Transhumanist Overwatch ftw. _________________ Delirium.. QUICK_EDIT
Yea, you are right ickus. Maybe i need to have another think about this. But Yuri has to go, i know that, even if i cannot replace him with something better.
And this would be the only strategy for the faction. (i will think of new ones i promise ) _________________ --
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Meanwhile you can download the mod with an updater here: http://mr-ox.dynalias.org/BalanceModUpdater/ _________________ --
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Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Location: Modding other games.
Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:29 am Post subject:
Some idea you got there. I personally most hate Yuri's side becuase if its overpowering tech and its general goofyness. I'd like to help you someday but I'm also busy making a mod too. And if I really made a mod that would be an alternative sequel to RA1. I would totally left yuri side out and get rid of the stupid mind controlling ideas. My way of RA2 would be a more modern and have a dark senario of the Cold War. _________________
Quote:
Everybody knows a mod that doesn't update every ten seconds is dead.
eww. please don't infect this with realism. RA2 is very stylized..yea its goofy story..I mean c'mon...look how romonov dies. but I do agree something more gritter.
re-imagining the series..possibly from a darker POV. but that would take alot of work..probably something you are not interested in..for the reasons you stated.. _________________ Delirium.. QUICK_EDIT
yea ickus, you are right, RA2 universe is cheasy and goofy, and thats why we all like it (generals failed hard here).
So maybe some people are right, i should tweek Yuri's side to match the others.
But then something else is bothering me, when Yuri suposedly left the soviets he took all his technology with him, thus soviets have lost that advantage, and allies stayed same strong.
There is this to consider. Taking away Yuri and giving the technology back to soviets.
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Again, im making this mod for playing. It will indeed be slim on storyline but should shine in multiplayer and skirmish. _________________ --
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RA2 isn't worth modding while YR has the patches and more logics.
It'd be a waste of time, pretty much, unless he doesn't have YR or is going to make a version of his mod for every game (BWR, for instance). _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Psht. I never condoned the removal of Yuri, infact I argued against it. Thus why generalize everyone's statement as such?
If you took the time to read the conversation was about the author's intention to recreate a new side to fill the gap..
I can agree the reasoning for this is unfounded, simply on inability to tank rush yuri. however it is the OP's motivation that lies in reconstructing this new side..to make it more "conventional"..and less dependant on "mind control"
I agree that removal of yuri, alienates supporters, like myself of unconventional gameplay demonstrated by Yuri's faction...one can see some merit as the conversation develops. Thus if anyone is lazy..would be those that did not fully read the conversation at hand. _________________ Delirium.. QUICK_EDIT
I want to remove yuri yes, but something has to fill the void that will satisfy people like you ickus, unconventional tactics, sneaky, etc.
Mind control is another issue. Personally i like how it is done, a unit can be switched to the enemy side. Programaticaly thats a nice achievement, but game play wise it turned out to be poor.
I will try to utilise mind control (after all it does exist in real life: brainwashing, hypnotism). But it has to fit the side. When i was playing original RA2 i quite liked Yuri's experiments on the mind (maybe on my mind =S ??!).
What im aiming with this new side is sort of similar background to Yuri's:
- People are horribly exploited: War miners are just trucks with 5 guys shoveling
- Men are so skinny, they are invisible =P (joking.. they are recruited natives, jungle people, desert people, city people...)
- technology is thrown together, bits salvaged from both sides. But not mixing technology, no prism shooting apocalypses!
- Their operatives infiltrated governments everywhere. need to think of a good way of providing funds in addition to ore.
(this is to balance Ore Purifier and that machine factory from soviets)
- they should still have a formidable ground force (partly inherited the soviet's armor)
- The whole faction consists of people that suffered the aftermath of nuclear/weather warfare: They are not afraid to get their hands dirty
Any more ideas? How does everyone feel about this?
PS: Desolator scares the living hell out of me, can you imagine being one??? You are put in a radiation suit (if such thing exists???) and sent of with a gun full of radioactive material. You will never see another being for miles, probably be alive for about 2 weeks and you wont be able to take off the suit as well since the outside will be glowing greeeeeennn arrghhhhhh..... _________________ --
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You know, I suggest you really look into Renegade 2.
I can see a Soviet/Nod hybrid coming out of this idea. I mean it fits..it can be something rather interesting.
Post-RA2:YR.
Allies can have some GDI elements and Soviets can be the cyberpunk/transhumanist Volkov elements as hinted on the box cover.
While this other faction can be a branch that evolves into Nod.
Definitely some alternate C&C story going here.
I can see soviets being more mechanical, using robots, mass production and blaring industrial music. Automated production..relying on cheaper units focusing in strength in numbers.
While Allies are merely reorganizing themselves into pre-GDI form. They taken some old soviet tech. Like Mammoth tanks. and been pushing for stronger weapons. They focus on cutting edge tech, researching more into space and air dominance. Stolen soviet tech can be mech based stuff. Like early forms of Wolverines. ironic if you seen Red Dawn.
Nod arises from the corpse of the old Soviets, taking with them cybernetics. Seth is in charge for now, so far Nod been researching this new mineral found in Italy, Its rather rare at this point, however it has shown signs of a rapid renewal rate.
Nod is starting to experiment with this stuff. Nod is pretty esoteric in its means. Stemming from the gulags of Cyber-Russia, they been getting alot of members who want to escape the Iron Curtain.
As for replacements. Slaves can be mechanical drones. or "mutants" that been created to mine tiberium or well maybe just ore. I think the idea of human workers may fit this hyper-industrialized Soviet concept.
Rather than radiation. it can be tiberium...maybe early Nod technology. people lead to believe in spreading Divination. _________________ Delirium.. QUICK_EDIT
Yuri should still be in, that's what makes the game.
I find it's ignorant saying "mod should be realistic" and replacing Yuri with boring generic faction but whatever floats your boat.
Really both universes should be separate too, but the other thing is you need to give it a decent showcase, otherwise it's all words at the moment. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Right now still just pitching ideas...what works what doesn't.
I see your missing the point of this discussion thought,
Yuri is what made Yuri's Revenge..Is not modding is about changing the gameplay, generating new ideas and experimentation.
The challenge presented itself in the form of what if Yuri was replaced if out outrightly removed ,yet still be in tuned with the C&C storyline.
If you really read this you find out that it is hardly about making this thing "MOAR" realistic. which I been a keen to address.
I played around with this concept and suggested an alternate storyline, possibly one in which some people would have liked to see explored, I saw Renegade 2 as fertile soil. Why should they be separate, it was something that was going to be done...yes it unintentional on part of Westwood to have Joe Kucan talk to "Stalin" but I as concept it generated its own appeal..I like this idea, it is mere option not to pursue it..so much as it is mine to do so.
Maybe the Rise of Nod would be a nice idea to play around with...In my mind I expected it to have some of "yuri's" tech. being some odd years after YR. So the technology is still there, being the opportunists that the Brotherhood are, they would hold some of it. Maybe even limited forms of mind control. It is still under development as an idea, I know that yuri players like myself want their faction to be addressed if its about continuation on the storyline.
I did the a similar thing with SoD. when I decide to cut GDI as a faction, only a few people seemed to miss GDI, kinda ironic knowing GDI is more beloved than yuri?
I know some visuals would be nice, especially to show off what I see to help it sell. I do agree that text cannot capture no matter how visually stimulating but we are a media addicted generation, I hope some of you can find the point I am trying to make here..but keep in mind it early.
Did you expect the designers of great games to know how did Master Chief, City 17 or how little sisters played out and looked like when they first started out?
unforunately we modders don't have the luxury or access to industry level concept artists and 3d modelers. While I myself posses the means, but I am pressed for time but I would like to explore these alternate possibles, hence my suggestions. _________________ Delirium.. QUICK_EDIT
what is beautiful in modding is that modding is a bridge and not a goal. Modding can be whatever you want it to be, but to get to your goal you must tranverse the bridge of modding.
I personally always liked Yuri because he was the "anti" to all of the other spam moves, but yet he could easily be defeated if you knew how to use the right mix groups.
As for the Red Alert Tib crossover, I always felt that the way to cross over the two story lines was to show Nod's rising from an underground cult to a super power. This is something I felt could not be done over a single game, but rather a continueing thing.
I envisioned that through key assasinations, The black hand could cause the Soviets into another war with the allies, even if the grounds for it were illigitimate. Then once war began, you would start to see "Hands of Nod" spread out through the cities of the world as a mercenary post where guns for hire congegrated. As the war went on, key nod strikes went on, although unknown to both sides, where leaders and scientists were killed. Meanwhile, the war went so poorly for both sides and they faced so many casualties that they began to turn more and more to the nod mercenaries (ever builing up the Nod wallet, giving them the wealth of a small country). Ultimatly though, the soviet union would fall. The world, seeking an organization that could prevent any more bids for world domination, created an elite policing army that could react anywhere in the world will full military force-the Global defence initiative was born. Nod however, was not going to be pushed out of the picture. They began to expand their influence in the shadows, expanding where the soviets or the allies no longer held influence-south america, easten europe, africa. And then, the sky rained tiberium...
You could throw Yuri into there for the lols, having nod free him from prison and then use him as a puppet distraction, but hey I'd be estactic if the Hand of Nod was a mercenary post in RA3 _________________ Please, read the signature rules of the forum. QUICK_EDIT
Wow, great stuff! this is exactly what i was aiming for with this topic , Thanks alot guys.
Very interesting to throw TS story into RA2 universe, although i have to be a critic about GDI part this time. Mixing the storylines is exciting, but i feel like in the end it would only serve to mix two games together, which wasn't my original intention, (it was done with other mods before) (plus, you end up with something like Alien VS Predator..... they are from different worlds, ahem, movies ffs !)
But yea, this is very promising, i like the subtlety of nod here, (I'm not sure about calling them NOD as well. Maybe just call them "The Brotherhood", everyone would get the connection, and it sounds more on topic with the whole underground movement.)
So yea, i like the idea of them being involved from the start, talks with Stalin, secret experiments shadowed by the massive war that was waging on the surface, they stole technologies, they abused them to the point where it was sickening. And then slowly emerged from the depths with unknown amount of power, financial backing, and infiltration scope. They spread like a virus on the backbone of both Allies and the Soviets using them in the process. In science development they surpassed morals of Allies and even Soviets, Experimenting on their own people with mostly deadly results. Their society knew nothing but constant pain that was channeled towards the superpowers. (btw has anyone played StarControl II ? Kor-Ah ? Ur-Quan? I thought their past was so disturbing/frightening, having to live on the margin of bearable pain to retain their freedom).
I appreciate everyones input and I consider everything that has been said and try to accept/refuse ideas fairly. If you think I misunderstood something please please please explain it.
PS. Again, these are just words, but im not going to start any modding until i have a solid unwavering idea of what it is going to be. If it captivates my imagination, then i guarantee it will be done.
PS #2. Ive been inactive for a bit because I'm currently staying in Czech republic for about 10 days, everything should return to normal soon. _________________ --
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oh and on the point of continuing the storyline from YR, once Yuri was defeated Allies and Soviets began fighting again (of course)..... How could these nations ever find peace ??? They started fighting from some insignificant stuffs again ((((( Or...... maybe The Brotherhood was behind this...... noone will ever know.... ))))) _________________ --
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I really dont like mixing TS into this.
Dont get me wrong, TS story and game were really great, but its not mixable with the "Grand War" feel of red alert. Besides, TS was ment to be waaaay after RA2 (we haven't moved this far yet.. If we did this would mean i need to redo *all* voxels and units and vehicles, this would take out the fun from playing the mod).
This secret society is good stuff, i just dont want to take all the stuff from TS and put it in RA2. if this is going to work there needs to be an intermediate stage, this is the rising of the brotherhood (who then on, 30 or so years later formed NOD).
Erm... im done for now..
PS. Promise =) _________________ --
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The first command and conquer game, Tiberium Dawn or also simply Command and Conquer, featured NOD and GDI fighting in 1995. And the technology was more "modern" (as opposed to space aged things although they did have alot of sci fi stuff). Basically in the early 90's a meteor hits earth containing tiberium. Nod starts harvesting it and builds a huge fortune through it. They then start going for world power when GDI steps in and *defeats* (if you play as gdi of course). In red alert 1, Kane serves as Stalin's assistant, and his top general (I think her name was nadia) is also part of the brotherhood. When you win the game as the soviets, nadia shoots stalin and kane is like "I win". But according to red alert 2, the allies won so it can only be assumed that Kane either got killed in the fighting or escaped and went underground.... Basically if you made a move from red alert to tiberium you would be doing so from ra2 to td and not ts. Unless you get creative with a chronosphere or something, but ra1 is like the fifties, ra2 and yr could be the seventies or maybe 80's and td was 1995. so *ra3* has to be sometime inbetween the 80's and the 90's. _________________ Please, read the signature rules of the forum. QUICK_EDIT
(btw has anyone played StarControl II ? Kor-Ah ? Ur-Quan? I thought their past was so disturbing/frightening, having to live on the margin of bearable pain to retain their freedom).
You're talking to one of the only members of the forum who still plays Star Control
Arikado (I think) and Judeau have played SC as well.
SC3 however was a huge pile of excrement.. not surprising as it was made by another company altogether and they totally butchered it (including Interbellum, the novel that must not be mentioned as well as SC3 itself, the game that must not be mentioned). Paul Reiche III and Fred Ford are in talks for a true genuine sequel with Activision however.. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Ok I'm back from my vacation and i will have more time to allocate to this.
I don't want to go too far with this because frankly i don't have much resources and I would like this mod to be an improvement in playability. So if anyone would like to contribute please please please give a shout and we can figure out something.
As for adding new side, I am working on it slowly, I've got some subtle ideas that i will add in over time. For now I would like people to try it out to see what could be improved. There are still certain things i don't like, need some tuning on resource management.
Thanks everyone for your input. _________________ --
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I would advise actually coding or displaying some form of screenshot.
I only quickly browse but some of your ideas don't even work in RA2 engine such as cloaking when not moving i.e. cloakstop is parsed but doesn't do anything. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Well this is what I've been trying to say: There isn't anything to show because most of the work is (going to be) put in the code. To balance the gameplay is the main objective, so the game looks no different but its slightly more engaging to play, focusing mainly on multiplayer.
As far as adding new side, that will be in the future. Cloaking of some sort should work, if not then ill have to use the patch.
I've been considering that RA2 engine is very limiting, and especially the AI, its so predictable and so easy to throw off. Of course this does not apply when playing against humans, but still it would be nice to have a supporting CPU on your side, and not one that does nothing (I guess I will have to look how other mods improved AI, eg. DeeZire's AI).
For now the project will become pretty dormant unless there is someone else who shares the same ideas and plays (likes/isn't bored of) original RA2, more play = more work. _________________ --
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New mod without a name
