Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:47 am Post subject:
Unusual AI modding question?
Subject description: AI in Skirmish gets more credits than what it should, where do I change that?
Hi, I would like to know how/where can I adjust the money that is given to computer players in Skirmish maps, as I have found that even If i set the start amount to 2500, the AI spends more than 6000 before the first harvester brings anything back.
Also, Maybe these are related, but can anyone can give me any information what does the "AI Level" mean for AI players? And if there are any settings I can adjust for them in any of the .ini files?
PS: I have already checked out the ai.ini, that is only for attack groups and related behavior.
Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 11:32 am Post subject:
Re: Unusual AI modding question?
midnightgreen wrote:
Hi, I would like to know how/where can I adjust the money that is given to computer players in Skirmish maps, as I have found that even If i set the start amount to 2500, the AI spends more than 6000 before the first harvester brings anything back.
Also, Maybe these are related, but can anyone can give me any information what does the "AI Level" mean for AI players? And if there are any settings I can adjust for them in any of the .ini files?
PS: I have already checked out the ai.ini, that is only for attack groups and related behavior.
cheers
I'm not sure that but if I remember right AI will get money double on start skirmish game. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 16 Feb 2005 Location: North America Posts: You cannot comprehend...
Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 4:11 pm Post subject:
Just set the starting credits lower than 2500, and keep setting it lower until the AI gets the right amount of starting cash. Easy as fuckin' cake maaaan. _________________ Destroy to create. All for the hunt to dominate!
Joined: 18 Jun 2005 Location: Dordrecht, the Netherlands
Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 5:53 pm Post subject:
Y'all ain't that helpfull, even if some of you are right...
The AI get's money, just like you, but then it's multiplied by the % of MultiplayerAICM... It's ordered from hard to easy QUICK_EDIT
Y'all ain't that helpfull, even if some of you are right...
The AI get's money, just like you, but then it's multiplied by the % of MultiplayerAICM... It's ordered from hard to easy
Thanks for all the replies so far, and the "MultiplayerAICM" seems to do the trick. I have set it to 0,0,0 so the computer has the same resources as human players, however this introduced another problem:
The AI only builds one Refinery.... thats it, it builds only one refinery and 1 extra harvester, and builds up its base from that.
Also I tried to get it to build more Refineries by increasing the RefineryLimit and RefineryRatio settings, but no effect. I also tried it out with the original MultiplayerAICM settings, but then it NEVER builds more Refineries than 3. Is there a way to get the AI to build more Refineries then? Why don't these settings work? QUICK_EDIT
You could make dummy refineries that only ai can build, copy the original refinery and change techlevel=-1 and aibuildsthis=yes , then simply repeat process for how many you want them to build. Remember to change the [NAREFN / GAREFN ] to something else for each one and to add them in the build list. _________________ [url=http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/images/signature/cache/elliott_street_amarr_eve_sig.png[/img][/url] QUICK_EDIT
rrright... but you mean dummy refineries as it would just LOOK like a refinery but wouldnt work ? Or would it work as well, would the computer harvest from it, create the extra Harvester as well(like the computer usually has 2 harvesters/Refinery)
The whole point would be to make the AI have a stronger economy without cheating, as I am trying to create an AI mod that would be a challenging skirmish opponent without the computer resorting to cheats.
Is there a way to change the Build Order for the AI? Like what is the first building and 2nd etc ?
Also the "NAREFN / GAREFN " is the actually "Image" of the building, why would i want to change that? and what would I change it to ? As that would control what graphic is used for the thing, and if I would want it to be a normal Refinery then it would need to have the same graphic wouldn't it ? QUICK_EDIT
The amount of Helipads and refineries the AI builds on each difficulty setting (AI level) is hardcoded into Tiberian Sun and cant be changed from what I know (Ive tried)
(You can clone the Helipad and the AI will build 4 normal ones and 4 clones)
The following buildings I have cloned in my personal mod is these so AI gets a little boost:
GDI & Nod Helipad
GDI Barracks & Hand of Nod
This is how I cloned the GDI barracks as an example:
Code:
[GAPILE2]
Image=GAPILE ;Same image as nomal GDI Barracks
Name=GDI Barracks (AI) ;just a name
Prerequisite=GAPILE,POWER ;AI will build this clone when it has a GDI Barracks and power plant
TechLevel=-1 ;not available to the player but to the AI
AIBuildThis=yes ;The AI will build this clone barracks and will build 2 infantries at the same time
Note that this is only a part of the GDI Barracks code, the rest is identical to [GAPILE]
About RefineryLimit and RefineryRatio:
THese two lines dont work and are obsolete, they are from the days of Redalert1 where they worked but not in Tiberian Sun
17. The [AI] Section from line BaseSizeAdd= down to line AirstripLimit= dont seem to work,
EDIT1: PowerEmergency= dont seem to work either (tested 01 Augusti 2004) but it seem to work in RA1,
EDIT2: GDIWallDefenseCoefficient= and MaximumBaseDefenseValue= dont seem to work
EDIT3: BuildDefense=, BuildPDefense= and BuildAA= has no effect either
Harder & more efficent AI:
And you may also want to change TeamDelays= to 0,1000,1000 and AIHateDelays=to 1000,500,0 to make the AI harder and add the line SmartAI=yes to [GDI] and set Paranoid=no in the [AI] section.
Also I have in my mod set the MultiplayerAICM= to 300,100,150 to get the maximum out of the AI without having the AI overflowing in money like in RedAlert2 where its 400 for hard AI .
TeamDelays is the time between each attack force from the AI (0,0,0 = no delay between building each taskforce for hard,medium,easy AI)
AIHateDelays= is the time it take for the AI before the first attack on who it decides to attack. (hard,medium,easy)
MultiplayerAICM= is how much extra money the AI gets (percentage?)(listed as hard,medium,easy AI) 300,100,150
Paranoid=no makes so that all AI's continue to attack eachother when someone gets wiped out (AI player or human player instead of all AI's allying and charging against you. QUICK_EDIT
Its hardcoded until YR, play on harder difficulities and just accept the ai needs to cheat otherwise its suck due its scripted nature. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Well I am doing this AI Mod, with the objective to create a simulated Multiplayer, where the computer actually behaves like a human, an does NOT cheat(besides obviously seeing the whole map) but a still challenging opponent.
(that is why MultiplayerAICM is not an option to boost the AI's economy)
And for that it would need to have either more harvesters and/or more Refineries.
So is this possible in any way? Someone mentioned creating a dummy Refinery? would that refinery work and function properly? And when would the computer build that?
Also is there a way to influence the order computers builds its base up? I mean sometimes its really stupid, it just builds Hi-tech stuff without having anything to support it (defense/economy). QUICK_EDIT
Im not sure about the computer building up its base but if you want the extra refinery thing a i mentioned just do this.
[NAREFN2]
Image=NAREFN This makes it have same image as normal refinery.
Name=Refinery
Prerequisite=POWER
TechLevel=-1 So people can't build it but AI Can if next tag is used.
AIBuildThis=yes This makes the AI construct this building provided they can meet the prerequisite.
Then just make sure they rest of it is same as the refinery and there you have a fully functional extra refinery for the AIs use. And make sure you keep the freeunit=harv tag or whatever it is(ain't done TS modding for ages) so the ai gets the extra harvester with it. _________________ [url=http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/images/signature/cache/elliott_street_amarr_eve_sig.png[/img][/url] QUICK_EDIT
Thanks Street, we are getting there now, I ll give it a test tonight when i get home.
Have you ever tried this yourself? Do you know if the AI is going to build this extra Refinery on the top of the Refineries it normally builds?(as that would be the ideal) Or it just uses this instead of the ones it normally has(meaning It will still not have more than 3)
And also is there a way to limit/set the number of these extra buildings the computer is going to build ? Or does it just always build only one of these? QUICK_EDIT
It builds an extra refinery for each copy one you make. So if you make one copy refinery the total refinerys the AI should build will be 4. Basically keep adding more and more until you have how many you want them to build. I have not used this in my own mod, but I do know it works as I remember this is how TheDVD got AI to make advanced harvesters in his mod. Where he made copy refinerys and changed the free unit to the advanced harvester so the AI would effectively make them.
Edit : It will only build one of each copy building you make, unless he gets multiple MCV then he makes 2 times what he should like every other building. _________________ [url=http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/images/signature/cache/elliott_street_amarr_eve_sig.png[/img][/url] QUICK_EDIT
your reply was so amusing for so many reasons its not even funny midnightgreen.
Change [Easy] [Difficult] tags then as changing difficulty makes ai units, cheaper, more firepower, etc
Human plays build multiple factories so ai will get clone bug i.e. buy one get one free
The AI is heavily scripted so it always follows stupid set scripts e.g. attack defences, you got a juicy sam site at the back of your base? I'm ai i think I will rush it and ignore everything else.
AI is also completely inadept at using walls in any logical manner, including pavement and also firestorm.
Finally like you mention AI has the eye of sauron i.e. all seeing, but all stupid.
Also AI is hardcoded to build structures in order they appear in the buildingtypes list and if you mess it up you bugger up campaigns, ai scripts. They also build in random places e.g. missile silo on outskirts of base.
Also AI and transports is also limited e.g. only one transport per taskforce, you can't for instance tell ai to build 6 apcs with 30 engineers and expect it to work well.
you can easily exploit guard mission ai as well i.e. shoot unit from distance and rush back to your defences i.e. baiting
You want a clever not cheating AI? Try making a AI like a humanoid robot one before bothering to find a proper non-cheating AI in any game. _________________ Last edited by Allied General on Tue May 13, 2008 2:24 pm; edited 2 times in total QUICK_EDIT
Paranoid=no makes so that all AI's continue to attack eachother when someone gets wiped out (AI player or human player instead of all AI's allying and charging against you.
It's mean that AI will "Free For All" instead allying each other right? Last edited by GameMaster0000 on Tue May 13, 2008 2:28 pm; edited 1 time in total QUICK_EDIT
Street: Thanks again, your comments are really helpful. So all new buildings, such as the extra Refineries would be built Last, as those would get added to the end of the "List" ? Or does the computer automatically try to build everything that has met the "Prerequisite" requirements ?
I got an idea, what if I would disable all Human buildable buildings for the AI, and then have a separate Clone-list of EVERYTHING, for the AI, with completely different "Prerequisite" for everything, that way I could prevent it to build anything stupid early on, and be able to control exactly what is built and when? What do you think?
Allied General: thanks for the comments, However I would like to invite you to contribute to this topic in a Constructive way, otherwise if you have nothing else to say other than that I am laughable, then this thread would be a lighter read without your posts.
Obviously I am aware of the limitations, as an AI, they see all, but are blind at the same time. I could have been a bit more precise in my objectives, I just wanted to make an AI similar to those found in Blizzard games such as Starcraft, where although the AI 'maphacks' but doesn't use money cheat or unfairly tougher units etc. QUICK_EDIT
Like If i would have 5 "Clone" Refineries ? Like Ref1, Ref2... Ref5 Each of them have the one before as a Prerequisite.
And the Techcenter or Temple would have Ref5 as Prerequisite? That way the AI would always have to have a stable economy before it would start investing into Hi-tech buildings? QUICK_EDIT
And clearly nobody has ever tried to achieve the same goal in this game before and therefore you get to scoff at those who actually know what they're saying because obviously your goal is unique and noble and therefore the game will roll over and fetch if you want it to. Right. QUICK_EDIT
Like If i would have 5 "Clone" Refineries ? Like Ref1, Ref2... Ref5 Each of them have the one before as a Prerequisite.
And the Techcenter or Temple would have Ref5 as Prerequisite? That way the AI would always have to have a stable economy before it would start investing into Hi-tech buildings?
Well personally I don't know as I didn't go into this degree of care about the AI in the mod I made (I just let them cheat and build insanely hard attack forces), so my advice is just use what you know now, test theories of how to use it, like the stuff I quoted and just see what works and what you like. _________________ [url=http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/images/signature/cache/elliott_street_amarr_eve_sig.png[/img][/url] QUICK_EDIT
I opened up this thread to ask for help, and I do welcome ideas and even Constructive criticism from all of you.
Thanks Street, I will do some tests tonight, and upload a beta AI mod maybe tomorrow.
However DCoder you were obviously just looking to make your 1627th and 1628th posts. Please, If you have nothing to say, then say that in another thread. Saying that AI level stands for difficulty, was just stating the obvious, it is a pity if after 1628 post that is the best you know, or the most you want to share. QUICK_EDIT
Oh shit, you caught me. I have nothing better to do all day than jerk off watching my post count grow. Quick, where's my tissue, I think it's that time again.
As for "the best you know", well, I really don't feel like enumerating my contributions to this community over the years just cause you have a whiny knob for a brain. Had you known "AI Level stands for difficulty", you wouldn't have asked. Once I said "difficulty", you should have been able to look up the relevant things in the rules or at ModEnc where I had already pointed you ( RTFM much? How about http://modenc.renegadeprojects.com/Difficulty , hmm? ). When I stressed "uniqueness" later on, you still didn't realise that it's possible that maybe, just maybe, someone has already tried to edit the AI over the years and a quick forum search would help. Instead, you just whined that your food was not completely prechewed for you. That attitude will get you far, definitely.
Protip: don't piss people off. Especially if they have been around longer than you, and know more than you do. And have a short temper to boot. QUICK_EDIT
Plenty. If you can't bother to do your homework, like using google or simply reading the fucking INI files, you clearly value my time less than your own, which I take offense at and will chew you out for. Especially considering that you ask me, not the other way around.
Protip #2: There is a document titled "How To Ask Questions The Smart Way". Follow it or get bent. QUICK_EDIT
BTW, if I'm correct you have to do something else for cloning reffs: edit the harv. There is a tag that say "dock=PROC", you have to add your raff buildings there like "dock=PROC,Raf1,Raf2,Raf3,Raf4,Raf5"
Soz if Im incorrect, but I think so, because I also did made more raffs and I need to edit this tag (if you don't, the harv will always unload at the PROC, but not at tzhe cloned raffs...) _________________
Think of me as Nordos, 'cause Banshee wouldn't rename me QUICK_EDIT
Ah yea thats a good point I forgot about, ain't touched a rules.ini for years _________________ [url=http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/images/signature/cache/elliott_street_amarr_eve_sig.png[/img][/url] QUICK_EDIT
Thanks Ordosherrscher, I bet that is going to come in handy.
DCoder... You are rude and hostile unnecessarily. I did not insult you, and I am not going to, you are still welcome to share your knowledge at any time, you have made 4 posts in this thread and none of them was helpful in any way.
Look at the others, The DVD for example, he has a post count of 3000, almost the double you have got, runs his own community site, where I have actually posted the same question. And look at what he has done? Simply replied on both sites without any bashing. I also bet that he answered the same question a 100 times over, probably even more than you did, yet he is just here to help others.
Forums are created for community bonding, Sure, I could have found my first question out maybe through other means, but that would have meant I wouldn't have joined this community, and probably would have developed my Mod somewhere else. Also the replies sparkled an interesting idea, which I think would have never happened if I would have used automatic means to find out what I was looking for. I am trying to do something for the community, that would benefit everyone, including you. QUICK_EDIT
He finds it a good use of his time to repeat the same things over and over. That's his choice, and his wasted time. I, on the other hand, have better things to do, like this or that, which benefits more people in the long run. And I find it very annoying when my and other people's work is ignored since some people can't read or use the goddamn search button. QUICK_EDIT
DCoder: Why do you keep wasting your time posting then? with the same effort you could have helped as well.
It is all about Interaction, I think we have some really good ideas now, ideas that I would have never got by visiting Wiki site. This is why I and a lot of new people prefer Forums. And you are not ignored, I ll have a look at your site, and I do use that Wiki site as well, if you did contribute to that site, then your efforts are appreciated. QUICK_EDIT
Be wary of how the word "hostile" is interpretated, in any case. Humans are not the same, perhaps our immaturity makes us think that they are rude and stuff. (Yes, I'm 15.)
As DCoder has stated, there are things called ModEnc, and maybe PPM has a tutorial about this somewhere.
Quote:
you have to add your raff buildings there like "dock=PROC,Raf1,Raf2,Raf3,Raf4,Raf5"
If it was =PROC, wouldn't PROC2,PROC3,PROC4,PROC5 and PROC6 be more suitable? I'm not sure if PROC1 might interfere with the PROC itself... _________________ Please, read the signature rules of the forum. QUICK_EDIT
Be wary of how the word "hostile" is interpretated, in any case. Humans are not the same, perhaps our immaturity makes us think that they are rude and stuff. (Yes, I'm 15.)
[quote]
No, Dcoder just doesn't mess about or sugar-coat his opinions. When you talk to him it's simply exactly what he wants to say. However sometimes this comes across as rude because most people are not used to things being said to them this abruptly, which may actually be an intended effect, I'm not sure.
And being 15 does not make you immature, your actions, speech and reactions make you mature or immature.
midnightgreen, you're right. if you went to a wiki you'd never have had this idea, unfortunately it's a bit useless this one... _________________ Yes, work on MV continues. It is not forgotten. QUICK_EDIT
Just for the record, I DID, use the Modenc website _before_ I made my first post, albeit briefly.
I was looking for detailed information on "AI Level", and I typed in that query, and it gave me no results.
Then I typed in "Difficulty", It gave me a page with 3 links to "Easy", "Normal" and "Difficult". None of these pages mentioned that the AI gets X times more money on these settings, neither of them mentioned "MultiplayerAICM". MultiplayerAICM Is in the Rules.ini file, however like some commands it does NOT have comments explaining what it does. So there was no obvious way of identifying it as what I was looking for.
So I opened a Thread asking this, and got instantly bashed, really next time you send someone to the
http://modenc.renegadeprojects.com/RTFM page,
maybe bashing people should use the f*cking search button and see if the person maybe has a valid point opening a thread.
And even if I could have found it somewhere else, really 99% of people join communities to ask questions about things they could have found somewhere else. If every single one of these people would get bashed after their very first post, it would scare them away, and all forums were empty. Last edited by midnightgreen on Tue May 13, 2008 7:13 pm; edited 1 time in total QUICK_EDIT
(Beware there are several obsolete lines from Redalert1 that dont work in this guide)
Search better next time
GameMaster0000 wrote:
Quote:
Paranoid=no makes so that all AI's continue to attack eachother when someone gets wiped out (AI player or human player instead of all AI's allying and charging against you.
It's mean that AI will "Free For All" instead allying each other right?
Yes
Allied General wrote:
Its a tag from RA1 it unknown afaik if it still works
You should know by now that the AI ally with each other when someone dies and this line will prevent them from doing that in Redalert1, Tiberian Sun and Redalert2 (This line is not obsolete in TS / RA2) QUICK_EDIT
I think there's a limit of 3 buildings for the Dock= tag. Don't remember where i got that from though.
Well, I never tried to add more then three buildings to the "dock" line I never heard about that limit, but it would be interesting to test it out (since it could be annoying if it excist^^)
@Destiny: That was just an example... You could name it "Hellraff" aswell xD The name doesn't mention anything (well, ok, it has a limit, dunno how long the name can be, but I remember that I tip once a name like "NodsWeaponfactoryOfGlory" or whatever, the point is, that it wasn't displayed ingame, to say, it didn't excist
BTW, look at my signature, there you see how old I am^^ _________________
Think of me as Nordos, 'cause Banshee wouldn't rename me QUICK_EDIT
cheers djohe, That is a helpful page. Others should take note that its that easy to point people into the right direction, certainly not more difficult than to bash them without any help.
BTW if you type in AI Level its not going to be in the results, even like that I didn't use the quotes. Of course if I would have just typed in AI, then it would have, but I didn't know I was looking for an AI setting, at the time I thought it was something like "StarMoney" or something like that. Anyways haha, have to have a sense of humor, I got owned, and all those years in Search Marketing... damn
that search page is also case sensitive, also something that wasn't obvious. Last edited by midnightgreen on Tue May 13, 2008 7:33 pm; edited 1 time in total QUICK_EDIT
It doesn't have a limit, my padaircraft have five entries under dock= and they all work. _________________ Yes, work on MV continues. It is not forgotten. QUICK_EDIT
btw, Paranoid=no causes problems with the original missions. e.g. in the last FS Nod mission, cabal becomes an ally if you have set it to "no". _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
Thanks very much, LKO, now I know why the hell CABAL was my ally in the last FS Mission I thought it would be a bug in the missions itselfs, because I didnt change anything else, what could cause this problem xD _________________
Think of me as Nordos, 'cause Banshee wouldn't rename me QUICK_EDIT
Thanks Guys, The Clone Refineries DO work. The AI builds a lot of refineries now.
However... There is a small problem, the Harvester count seems to be independent of the number of Refineries, means that the AI has normally 6 Harvesters with 3 Refineries, and now it has the same 6 Harvesters with 6 Refs Which is a good start, but not quite what I want.
So is there a way to modify how many Harvesters does the computer build in total ?
( unfortunately the promising 'HarvestersPerRefinery= ' is for RA2 not for TS ) QUICK_EDIT
Of course I could always give it more Refineries, but I think 6 is already too much, besides, if the AI looses a Harvester, than if it had more than 6 then it doesn't bother replacing it. It will only replace harvesters up until 6,so there must be a parameter, setting this number somewhere. QUICK_EDIT
No there is no parameter line for number of AI Harvesters, its hardcoded if you know what hardcoded means
The line was first added to Redalert2's Rules.ini and aint available in Tiberian Sun
And it is also not possible to force the AI to build more harvesters trough the AI.ini , they will just **** up the AI (Ive tried several ways already so dont bother trying) QUICK_EDIT
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Unusual AI modding question?
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I thought it would be a bug in the missions itselfs, because I didnt change anything else, what could cause this problem 
