Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:02 pm Post subject:
Devils Tongue
Devils Tongue
Strength: Medium
Armour: Weak
Speed: Average
Cost: 750
The Devils Tongue is the evolution of the Flame Tank, first introduced in the Second Tiberian War. The original concept of the Devils Tongue has not changed dramatically, however minor armour and manoeuvrability improvements have been made, as well as further design modifications to add to shell integrity underground (Due to early problems with tunnel collapses in the new prototypes). The twin flamethrower armament has been improved to leave more lasting flames for a more devastating effect, which is fatal to infantry and can turn buildings to slag with ease. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Good work, though I do believe that the whole concept of subterranean warfare is flawed, a minor design flaw on WW's behalf (one of only afew mind you:P). QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 03 Dec 2008 Location: Your Mum Dragons: Lame
Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:35 am Post subject:
Team Black wrote:
Has the feeling of a sleek car from the twenites, like a hearse or something.
I love this design.
Exactly what I was thinking, like a mafia boss car...only that goes underground, shoots fire and has a fancy set of mincers on the front.
I like it, you say it's currently using the old TS flame so is there any shots of a new flame or is that on the to do list? _________________ DIAB: Dragons are lame.
It does look a wee bit like the mole but as mentioned subterranean vehicles mostly have similar concept.
Thanks for ignoring me by the way Orac, is this your work, or...? QUICK_EDIT
For some reason I can't make a pun or joke on this thing. Looks pretty nice, btw. I guess Nod has turned to the Mafia to recruit more people eh? _________________ Please, read the signature rules of the forum. QUICK_EDIT
Sorry, I really can't see this as anything but a sports car. Just add more of the metal-gray and reduce/move some of the the curvy-ness from the middle sides, that should help imo. QUICK_EDIT
It looks nice high tech-ish, but a bit too clean.
The grey and black part is too clean and some dark brown dirt spots would surely look great on this one.
Also texture-wise a small color variation would be nice (looks like it's the same color for a whole section, but it should be more metallic with some slight color differences)
Maybe also raise slightly the brightness of the dark black part, as the main shape is only visible due to the red stripes and other grey parts. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
i'm unsure if this is really an improvement.
Old
+nice clearly visible details
-too clean (some dirt would be nice)
-textures only single-colored
New
+more round; more Nod-ish
-pixelated (especially the grinder and the grey detail on the side; looks like the normals have been messed up)
-even darker (should be brighter to show more the shape)
Some antialiasing especially along the fine red stripes would be good. _________________ SHP Artist of Twisted Insurrection: Nod buildings
I agree, they both have positives and negatives, no clear superiority for either. Please, take out a lot of those curves, and add more metal. QUICK_EDIT
Yeah, I noticed those. But I feel that some pink dots are no reason to replace the shot again
I'll fake it, if you like. I'll recolour the pink dot in MSPaint QUICK_EDIT
It still is an ugly design. I mean, it still ends up looking like a box no matter how many fancy swiggles and dingles you put on the side. The whole box idea in my opinion should be scrapped and replaced with a different style. You have a team of good concept artists, surely making Nod's original iconic Flame Tank a worthy successor is possible. The TD one was memorable because it looked good. TS' looked bad and was remembered for that. Give the flame tank a memorable, intimidating look please. not 'lol box'. _________________ Victory! QUICK_EDIT
It still is an ugly design. I mean, it still ends up looking like a box no matter how many fancy swiggles and dingles you put on the side. The whole box idea in my opinion should be scrapped and replaced with a different style. You have a team of good concept artists, surely making Nod's original iconic Flame Tank a worthy successor is possible. The TD one was memorable because it looked good. TS' looked bad and was remembered for that. Give the flame tank a memorable, intimidating look please. not 'lol box'.
Wait, come again? You want the TD flame tank back?
The TD flame tank was the silliest design in all of TD.
Seriously, who puts giant flammable canisters on the top of a vehicle?
The only way that I can see a TD style flame tank looking plausible is with the subtraction of the iconic targets.. I mean, canisters.
Which would make it a large box design with no huge, explosive targets. QUICK_EDIT
I said was that the Flame Tank deserved a memorable look for TO, rather then looking like a computer case with LEDs on it or some jacked up batmobile. I was referring to the old flame tank in that it was memorable in a POSITIVE way compared to TS' which was generally mocked. _________________ Victory! QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 25 Sep 2006 Location: Teamblackistan Posts: Over 9000
Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:44 am Post subject:
Volgin you have negative comments on everything, and you never have the guts to go out there and make something yourself. _________________ The Fall of Hammerfest - Epic Tiberian chain story
Tiberian Odyssey mapping department. Discord The Team Black Index QUICK_EDIT
Also Known As: evanb90 Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Location: o kawaii koto
Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:33 am Post subject:
I was always of the impression that posting media about a project like a modification was to help gather feedback about it, both positive and negative, but constructive.
You are giving me this vibe that the negative isn't welcome, and when negative feedback isn't welcome it just becomes a pointless circlejerk and the rate of improvement is much lower.
Also, you don't need to be a voxeller to be able to critique a poor design, in the same way you don't need to be a car designer to say that a car looks ugly.
As for me, I don't particularly care for it. Its appearance doesn't lend itself well to its use. You can hardly tell it is a burrowing unit and flames seem to just flow out of the tank from no apparent emitters.
I am not ragging on the quality of the voxel, as the normals, use of colors are all top notch, but if I were to have a bunch of these in a mass unit of units I would have to go by the meaning attached to the name "Devil's Tongue".
(by first guess I would assume that this unit would be an APC) _________________ YR modder/artist, DOOM mapper, aka evanb90
Project Lead Developer, New-Star Strike (2014-)
Former Project Lead DeveloperStar Strike (2005-2012), Z-Mod (2006-2007), RA1.5 (2008-2013), The Cold War (2006-2007) QUICK_EDIT
You've got some good points, EVA, and you're right about the general tone of anti-negative posts.
The shape is, however, a very difficult thing to change while staying at least plausibly implausible - burrowing flame tank doesn't lend itself to many different shapes (Other than maybe the sides, which you will notice are significantly different to the TS devil's tongue).
As for flame emitters, I just had an idea on how to improve them, and will attempt to modify the voxel accordingly. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 08 Jul 2006 Location: in your closet... Post = true
Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:07 pm Post subject:
Has anyone around here ever made the experience of "growing to like something"? Since Eva was referring to cars: When Opel/Vauxhall published the new Corsa, I thougt to myself "What an ugly yak!", my father felt the same way - know what? roughly 9 months later a brand new Corsa stood outside our house - after actually spending some time to look into it and comparing the car with others, I eventually grew to like the car and the design. People often tend to just ditch Designs theyre not used to. The Flametanks overall-shape is simply boxy. Thats unusual - most times tanks have turrets. Clearly visible. This one hasnt.
I feel people often rather dont understand the design instead of just not liking it. By just cooking up what everyone might rate as "quite well" youll get just the same porridge over and over again. Fifty years ago people were ranting about Houses having curved walls and round windows instead of down-to-earth edges. Nowadays Houses having only 90°-edges are sterile and old-fashioned. Or even Vefbl - look at the Attackbuggy he made for Nod: looks like a babybuggy. People liked it anyways.
Now - Eva is right. Negative Statements are important and wanted. I appreciate Volgin being honest - yet he didnt really go deep into the designs flaws. Volgin just pointed out that its ugly and needs a more memorable shape - how that is to be achieved he left vague. Let me be honest as well: I dont think you really tried to understand why it looks like it looks. A self-burying tank is pretty limited in what shape it can has - basically - it can either be a tube or a box - anything else wouldnt be practicable.
Thats just something, I felt I had to say for a long time now. _________________ audiopulse sagt:
your raging arse is creating storms?
Luke | CCHyper sagt:
yup, neptune size! QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 03 Dec 2008 Location: Your Mum Dragons: Lame
Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:22 pm Post subject:
I feel like that about all Vauxhalls
I like it, it's something different - lets be honest anyway, if your digger is round it won't go far. The TI Sub APC follows the same theme as does the mole, box on wheels with big drill on the front. _________________ DIAB: Dragons are lame.
to be objective, the TI drill apc and this design are the most unimaginative and ugliest designs every created, nd to those peoplem who say "ooh you can't differ a unit like this in design too much" are completely wrong, there are TONS of ways to make kickass units out of the concept of a drilling flame tank/APC. _________________ Hydraw Art on Facebook QUICK_EDIT
I can't believe I'm agreeing with blubb and I'm sure he can't either, but that is what I was aiming for, and he really cleaned it up. Case in point being jet aircraft and pretty much MOST military equipment. Soviet and American aircraft do the same thing, but generally look different. Compare the Mi-24 to the Ah-64. Both of them are very comparable yet...
they don't look the same. Hell, take a look at other concept art from games that are NOT C&C. There are plenty of things that ARE in C&C (Mecha for instance), that are done very differently. The point is, look at art that isn't C&C. There MUST be more ways to do a subterranean flame tank then making it look like a computer tower on its side.
PS, Because I have not produced anything I'm automatically wrong for criticizing the mod's designs? Wow. Why bother posting update screenshots? The whole point of public criticism is that. CRITICISM. If every response to a mod is 'omg so amazing :DDD' then there is something VERY wrong. _________________ Victory! QUICK_EDIT
to be objective, the TI drill apc and this design are the most unimaginative and ugliest designs every created, nd to those peoplem who say "ooh you can't differ a unit like this in design too much" are completely wrong, there are TONS of ways to make kickass units out of the concept of a drilling flame tank/APC.
Not true. Unlike many people around, I loved TS's flame tank simply because it looked like it could work in real. Like Orac pointed out, TD and TW flame tanks are just ridiculous, and even if they might have better aesthetics, they would work out just as well as the Tsar tank in WWI.
There are few ways to improve the look of this unit, but things like having drills or grinders in the front set the boundaries for the design, i. e. you can't make a mech that burrows trough soil by creating mini black holes, without forgetting the fact that TO is situated only a few decades after TS.
It's a real-time strategy game. A game about war. People don't make shit look pretty in war. People make stuff work properly in war.
And AGAIN, you gave no clear way to HOW to improve the design! _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Also Known As: evanb90 Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Location: o kawaii koto
Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 3:36 pm Post subject:
Crimsonum wrote:
It's a real-time strategy game. A game about war. People don't make shit look pretty in war. People make stuff work properly in war.
And AGAIN, you gave no clear way to HOW to improve the design!
Funny, I recall drawing criticism for a spartan design style. If you really had a clue what you were saying, the Nod Obelisk, for example, would not be an Obelisk, because it wouldn't work properly as a defensive system!
CNC has never been about capturing the latter of those two ideas, its been about making something look pretty. Or for something more relevant:
http://www.ppmsite.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19634
Look at this GDI Mammoth Tank, with 8 separate lights, 4 pointing in the same direction, 2 mounted to the turret and another two mounted in the rear. I'll tell you what- any tank designer would die laughing at that load of bullocks and I am talking 2009 standards. Shouldn't even need any of them in a universe where technology has hit Star Wars levels.
Take for example, Red Alert 1, the so-called non-cartoony RA. Would anybody ever build a 15 meter tall electric christmas tree? No. It would be a small ground lying turret that if necessary would reveal itself to engage a target, like a Maginot Line turret.
Or the mechs in TO. Sorry to break it to you, but a T-51B or just a Humvee with a .50cal would be preferred over an Argonaut by any military commander in his right mind. The same goes for the Ares. Any intelligent military commander would go for an upgraded Abrams or Mammoth Tank over mech-walker any day. (well realistically a Mammoth would never exist)
What is in common with all of these examples? They all look pretty but in a realistic setting would not ever work.
Lastly, I don't see anybody asking for help. When I see quality work like that of this Devil's Tongue, I like to make the assumption they are intelligent enough to figure out what needs to be changed just by inference (that is, I don't need to baby the designer around). I trust Orac and the TO team are within this category.
There is a clear distinction between criticism and suggestions, mind you- feedback can be either or both. _________________ YR modder/artist, DOOM mapper, aka evanb90
Project Lead Developer, New-Star Strike (2014-)
Former Project Lead DeveloperStar Strike (2005-2012), Z-Mod (2006-2007), RA1.5 (2008-2013), The Cold War (2006-2007) QUICK_EDIT
I knew I shaped up my opinions the wrong way. You surely counter-attacked that one
What I meant is that I personally don't want to see the Devil's Tongue end up as some fancy mech that, like I said, summons black holes or some pew-pew lazer to carve its way through the soil. I'd rather keep it as a realistic mining machine -like vehicle equiped with a pair of flamethrowers. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
to be objective, the TI drill apc and this design are the most unimaginative and ugliest designs every created, nd to those peoplem who say "ooh you can't differ a unit like this in design too much" are completely wrong, there are TONS of ways to make kickass units out of the concept of a drilling flame tank/APC.
Oh God, please don't start this again... QUICK_EDIT
I knew I shaped up my opinions the wrong way. You surely counter-attacked that one
What I meant is that I personally don't want to see the Devil's Tongue end up as some fancy mech that, like I said, summons black holes or some pew-pew lazer to carve its way through the soil. I'd rather keep it as a realistic mining machine -like vehicle equiped with a pair of flamethrowers.
even then there are tons of ways to improve a design _________________ Hydraw Art on Facebook QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 25 Sep 2006 Location: Teamblackistan Posts: Over 9000
Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:52 pm Post subject:
The reason I say that, is I've been in the same boat as Orac in this case;
Put a lot of effort into making a voxel super spiffy, revealing it to the public to a nitpicky community, and trying to bend over backwards to edit and re-edit just to try and please everyone.
The thing about negative criticism is that it's so easy to do, and too much of it is just flat out demoralizing. Anyone can go out and say "that looks like a shoebox" whether or not it does, or whether or not the critic has any experience in the same field.
I have little respect the opinion of someone who only says negative things, and has never made anything to know what it feels like for someone to say negative things abouta design they themselves have put their time & effort into. _________________ The Fall of Hammerfest - Epic Tiberian chain story
Tiberian Odyssey mapping department. Discord The Team Black Index QUICK_EDIT
Dude... this community? Nitpicky? Are you kidding me? I have not seen much negative criticisms toward TO from the community at ALL. Yeah, its nitpicky if your EA, but you're not. TO barely gets negative criticism. (I'm not saying thats bad either. You're obviously doing something right. ) Heaven forbid somebody doesn't like a design, right?
The whole point of criticism is to take something and point out problems with it for the CREATOR to fix. Not to be a unanimous wall of approval. Thats not criticism, thats praise. If you can't accept criticism, then... well, toughen your skin or get out of the kitchen. Sorry. Especially with video games of all things. Read the EA or VALVE forums and all the bullshit the designers get on character looks, or other things. How do you think they feel? Sometimes they change them, sometimes they dont. Criticism comes with the turf.
As for your last statement... ah... I chortled. Because I don't make voxels I obviously have not made other things, right? Sorry. You don't know me outside of PPM, so please don't judge me on what I have or have not created and things I have put effort into. I know what its like, its awful, but hey. I deal with it. Its inevitable as a writer, and a designer. Just accept it and move on. _________________ Victory! QUICK_EDIT
You know, the difference between something like TO and an EA or VALVE product is that TO is being created as a hobby, something done for fun. I enjoy making voxels, and I enjoy unveiling them to the community. I even enjoy people condemning and defending my aesthetic choices. But in the end TO will really be released to the community as an afterthought. Releasing it is less important than the journey getting there. I have fun contributing, and playing with other people's contributions. After all, this is a hobby not a job.
Anyway, the other burrowing design is not a box on wheels, and has some heavily different aesthetics within the Nod style. For now it is still in WIP stages though, so I won't be personally showing it around. QUICK_EDIT
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Devils Tongue
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