Also Known As: banshee_revora (Steam) Joined: 15 Aug 2002 Location: Brazil
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:32 am Post subject:
Art of Balancing? Greg Black has shared his words on it.
Subject description: Overpowered units with overpowered counters and an assymmetrical balance.
Hello everyone! EALA developpers are posting articles about the way they work on Red Alert 3. First of all, one map designer posted how his focused his work on pleasing hardcore players, remember? Now, there is another person who want to please hardcore players as well. It is Greg Black, the one responsible for the balance of the game.
At the Art Of Balancing with Greg Black, he explains how he deals with balance problems and he leaks some of the changes you'll see on future beta patches, if they ever get made, of course. Here's a snippet of the article and also a very interesting picture with what they do have in their minds when they balance the game, which I recommend to click to see more details:
Quote:
It has been very exciting, scary, and ultimately gratifying to see you all participating in the beta and providing the development team with feedback. I've been carefully monitoring all the feedback, across multiple forums and fan sites, in order to help tune and balance the final game. I've also been playing the beta quite a bit of course (usually under one of my "noms de guerre", which helps me avoid getting swarmed by rabid fans...OK fine, it's actually to help me dodge GameReplays.org players). Obviously there is a ton of balance and general gameplay feedback out there to be considered, and that's where my balance tool, stopwatch, magic eight ball, and team of highly-trained balance testers come in.
Anyway, this article uses some terms where some of you might not be familiar, specially non native english speakers who doesn't play the game online very often or visit GameReplays. Here's a quick translation:
-> OP: Overpowered. It means that the unit is stronger than it was supposed to be.
-> Nerf: Make a unit weaker than it was.
-> Buff: Opposite of nerf. Make a unit stronger than it was.
And I cannot finish this article without my opinion, afterall, this place is made from fans for fans, and not from journalists. Greg Black has definitelly a great challenge, since balancing the game perfectly is almost impossible to be done in 2 months only, but I think he clearly underestimates the value and the role of the buildings in a game where the main objective is to destroy all enemy buildings and MCVs. If I were in his place, I'd pay much more attention to this detail. Buildings are still made of paper in this game, just like in C&C3 and Generals (and at the expansion packs from these games). Just my two cents anyway. Enjoy the article and the latest patch (3) of the Red Alert 3 Beta with its hefty 890 mb. By the way, you can see the patch notes HERE (Thanks Sonic). Last edited by Banshee on Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:39 am; edited 5 times in total QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 26 Nov 2002 Location: Algae Colony On Mars
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:52 am Post subject:
I was under the impression that a chart like that would be pretty obvious. Of course, maybe after so much modding things like this seem to be natural. Artillery > defences, anti-tank > tank, etc never really needs explaining in my mind.
I must admit, simply balancing the units isn't the case here. The sides are so fundamentally different (for once) that they need to be evenly matched. I'm sure I've mentioned this elsewhere but I feel that the Allies are overpowered when it comes to defending because of the way they construct buildings, since the Soviets and Japan need to preplace their structures before they build. Japan have the advantage of being able to build anywhere with ease that counters that but with the Soviet build system there seems to be no inherent advantage. I didn't fully read that changelog but I'm also hoping they changed the Soviet prerequisites so the super reactor isn't required to build a tech centre/tesla coil. Forcing a dangerously unstable and extremely weak reactor in a Soviet base is just stupid really. _________________
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This is sexier than what this forum was supposed to tolerate. - Banshee
Joined: 24 May 2004 Location: Flanders (Be) Posts:300000001
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:29 am Post subject:
You can always use a Sputnik and place it further away... soviets don't have the localized tech restrictions of the Allies. That is their build system's advantage. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 26 Nov 2002 Location: Algae Colony On Mars
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:14 pm Post subject:
Quote:
You can always use a Sputnik and place it further away... soviets don't have the localized tech restrictions of the Allies. That is their build system's advantage.
But the Allies can use their harvesters for the same role. Nobody seems to notice they can deploy into expansion post things.
EDIT: I've just realised what you mean. I see your point now. _________________
Quote:
This is sexier than what this forum was supposed to tolerate. - Banshee
Last edited by Clazzy on Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:44 pm; edited 1 time in total QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 16 Feb 2005 Location: North America Posts: You cannot comprehend...
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:18 pm Post subject:
I think buildings should have more hitpoints. Also, bases should be more than just buildings. Barracks don't create humans, they train them. When buildings get created, they seemingly create the people that run it.
All I'm saying is that I'd like to see some units which you don't control and that do not interfere with the game, but serve as... realism. When you first build a Barracks, a chopper should fly in off the map, land on the building (I guess they'll have to make Barracks have helipads), drop off some personel, then leave. Simple stuff like that.
It's probably not going to happen though. _________________ Destroy to create. All for the hunt to dominate!
Nuh-uh, in the RA3 xpack there will be tesla powered nuclear bananna throwing soviet monkeys!
TD wasn't THAT bad for instance, I can think of 3 things that would be hard to do IRL (except tib.):
Obelisk
Stealth Tank
Ion Cannon _________________ Yes, work on MV continues. It is not forgotten. QUICK_EDIT
From the way I look at it, C&C has always had that "5 years from now" feel to it. There was sci-fi stuff, but it seemed like ti was always a possibility.
The Empire actually has a bunch of infantry stuffed into their "eggs" Picture it as a jappanese clown car .
And I thought there was underground tunnels?
Why complain about guys coming out of the building, when you can build the building in 5 seconds? Or tanks costing 1000 dollars? Or infantry who all look exacly the same? It's a game, play it. _________________ Please, read the signature rules of the forum. QUICK_EDIT
Dawn of War had a nice system with units being dropped from outer space with droppods.
That reminds me... what about a mod in which the animation for finished infantry is a droppod coming down?
And Nod could have a tunnel opening in the barracks... QUICK_EDIT
I was thinking parachutes or a descending Helo (for RA/RA2). I doubt RA3 will have Anything like this implemented, but it is an interesting Idea... _________________ Yes, work on MV continues. It is not forgotten. QUICK_EDIT
A game can be realistic though. Red Alert 3 is as far away from realism as Command & Conquer can possibly go...
Was CnC ever even close to realistic in the first place? Realistic infantry cannot survive 12387423904709 tank shells like they could since TS, realistic triple-A doesn't always hit it's target, infantry do not stand out in the open all the freaking time like its 1763, and worst of all is continuity.
One irony about RA3 was it was both WW2 and Nuclear weapons technology that brought forth space technology. (And there are no nukes in RA3! You can't have an RA game without Nukes!)
Another is that the Soviets supposedly altered the past to make the Allies weaker and less technological. While the Allies do indeed look more like a WW2 army (Bullets for anti-air weapons, free-fall bombs for ground targets), they actually look stronger than they were in RA2. In everything. QUICK_EDIT
Wait till the game comes out to see what the story says. And if you go back in time, change soemthing, and then go back to the future, you will still know everything you knew prior to making the journey. So When the soviets go back, they will still know everything they knew from before. _________________ Please, read the signature rules of the forum. QUICK_EDIT
Also Known As: evanb90 Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Location: o kawaii koto
Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:11 pm Post subject:
DaFool wrote:
Wait till the game comes out to see what the story says. And if you go back in time, change soemthing, and then go back to the future, you will still know everything you knew prior to making the journey. So When the soviets go back, they will still know everything they knew from before.
Not so. There are many different theories on time travel, and Westwood/EA have not stayed consistent on their theories either.
Time travel in the RA series is but a mere plot device used to set the tone of game and create the conflict. _________________ YR modder/artist, DOOM mapper, aka evanb90
Project Lead Developer, New-Star Strike (2014-)
Former Project Lead DeveloperStar Strike (2005-2012), Z-Mod (2006-2007), RA1.5 (2008-2013), The Cold War (2006-2007) QUICK_EDIT
Lets leave it that we won't know exactly what happens until the game comes out and we actually beat the campaign. _________________ Please, read the signature rules of the forum. QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 16 Feb 2005 Location: North America Posts: You cannot comprehend...
Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 3:29 pm Post subject:
Dutchygamer wrote:
It's been this way in all C&C, and complain about it now already? Wow, you are fast (sarcasm alert!) It's a game, not RL. Deal with it
Well, I figured that NOW a days, what with our awsome gaming technology, it could be done.
Also, please, just let that superior monkey unit concept DIE... it's overused, and not funny, anymore... to me, at least. _________________ Destroy to create. All for the hunt to dominate!
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Art of Balancing? Greg Black has shared his words on it.
(sarcasm alert!) It's a game, not RL. Deal with it 
.
It's a joke between Albrecht and me 
