Also Known As: banshee_revora (Steam) Joined: 15 Aug 2002 Location: Brazil
Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:52 pm Post subject:
Red Alert 3: Uprising and us.
Subject description: The Empire of the Rising Sun has terminated with the modders from that game.
Hello everyone! In a couple of days, EA will be releasing the expansion of Red Alert 3 called Uprising. Unlike any other previous C&C game or expansion, this one will be released as digital download only as a stand alone game (meaning: we do not need the original Red Alert 3 to install it).
This expansion should feature 4 new mini-campaigns, 50 challenge mode maps among and 11 new units. APOC has confirmed that, likewise Kane's Wrath, Uprising will not get a mod SDK. So, the new features from these 11 new units, as well as Yuriko's multiple superpowers ability seen in the latest BattleCast Primetime Episode (released yesterday) won't be available for modders. The soon to be released Red Alert 3 mod SDK will not be compatible with Uprising.
The compatibility of vanilla RA3's World Builder with the expansion is unknown. I'm not aware if Uprising will already ship with a world builder or not.
So, those who wondered if it is worth to aquire Red Alert 3 if Uprising will render it useless, might have an answer now: Yes, if you wanna mod it. Otherwise Uprising alone is cheaper than the original game and brings a better skirmish, but apparently no multiplayer (which seems to be no good for competitive players).
With this kind of wonderful modding support from EA, we certainly get extremely motivated to run modding sites. Deezire for instance, is no longer covering the newer C&C games. Stygs has given up from Tiberium Wars Advanced. I'm glad that Tiberian Sun, Red Alert 2 and Generals are nice and moddable games. Otherwise PPM would be well described by this picture. Now reason with me: closed source modding (compressed XML files) that modders need to rely on EA's mood to get the latest XML files, we need to compile the mod every time change the mod (and it takes time), coding errors are hard to track, we cannot mod the expansion of any game, world builder is usually bugged to hell, we are forced to install a rootkit on our machines to run the game, the expansion comes as download only and requires a connection enough stable to download a 5gb+ file and an international credit card, and the list grows... What else do we need? C&C3 modders who create decent mods are heroes and the future for those both games is doomed. The change to the XML done in C&C3 (and I was invited to witness that, but I couldn't see it properly when I visited their studio) was the worst from EA mistake ever, from a modder's perspective.
Nonetheless, we'll still support RA3 modding here once the mod SDK gets released (which shouldn't take much longer). The RA3 mod SDK should be as powerful as the TW one. Last edited by Banshee on Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:23 am; edited 1 time in total QUICK_EDIT
Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 12:26 am Post subject:
Re: Red Alert 3: Uprising and us.
OmegaBolt wrote:
Banshee wrote:
brings a better multiplayer
There is no multiplayer, only skirmish and campaign.
Multilayer is skirmish... There will be on-line play. But there are no co-op missions.
If I recall right this is exactly what I said a long time ago. KW will never have a SDK. I'm not at all shocked that Uprising wont have one either. If it were my call I would say put off an SDK all together tell all expansion packs are released. Because I wont mode stock TW and I'm not gonna mod stock RA3. But EALA wont do that because once the game comes out and been out for a few months there in no more profit in it for them so it becomes obsolete. Look at the factions unit list on there web site. They never finished updated the units once the game came out, And now that Uprising is coming they are putting the units up.
I think TW was a complete failure for moders and RA3 is in the same boat. The moding community is pretty much screwed when it comes to moding new C&C games. Maybe this might help boost some life into older more mod able games. Because one thing that I see that drives me nuts is how allot of mods have moved to RA3... And you just watch! Most of them will move to the next C&C game after this RA3 move. So we will have no new mods just WIP all over the place.
Banshee I think we should not support the new C&C games and just stick with what we have. The TS/RA2/GEN games are very strong, We have a shit load of tools and allot of good moders out there. I see no need to be continuously dragged in pain over the half ass effort put by EALA.
I also don't seem to understand why you care so much... You seem to try to reason with these guys. The only way to deal with them is give them money... thats all they care about. So I would suggest stop beating your self up over this nonsense and come back to reality. _________________ MadHQ's Graveyard - Click here!
(Permissions) - (F.A.Q.) QUICK_EDIT
no mp as in there will be no LAN and online components. Which I find ironic. You need the internet in order to get it, but it doesn't have internet play. _________________ Please, read the signature rules of the forum. QUICK_EDIT
How do you know there is no online play? I'm 100% sure there is. It would be really stupid for them to do that. Especially since they are adding new MP maps. _________________ MadHQ's Graveyard - Click here!
(Permissions) - (F.A.Q.) QUICK_EDIT
I am really getting annoyed with the complaints about EA's "halfassed efforts".
TS and RA2 are good to mod not due to any SDK (and for a while this really hurt TS modding). Generals never had any SDK, most of the tools are adopted from Renegade's SDK.
They were good to mod due to the engine being set up nicely for modding. Since BFME2 EA's been drifting more and more into territory where the games are less modder friendly. Is it due to how complicated modern game making is? maybe its due to the guys internally not having a clue what helps/hurts modders? I'm not sure...but the fact remains that when it comes time to do an SDK they have to go back in and un-do a lot of stuff they did (or re-do it to make it modding friendly). This takes money and manpower...and a lot of convincing to make it happen.
Also keep in mind that some of what made Generals so modding friendly was due Deezire being on board while they were making the game...and them implementing his suggestions. Hopefully with Mastermind working at EALA...he's able to offer similar input for future games (he was hired after RA3 had much of that stuff locked down).
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The lack of interest in modding C&C3 is puzzles me. Yes, compiling sucks...however its made up for by a ton of options in-engine, things that let us do stuff we never would've thought of for ZH. Maybe its just the lack of general interest in current-gen modding...with so much art/code work needed not many mods exist (compare the latest Unreal Tournament or Half Life 2 to prior communities...they are a shadow of the last iterations).
With that said...if I was going to do any more modding-related stuff after MEC2, I'd be making mod-maps for Starcraft 2. More robust mapping/scripting tools (likely not the flexiblity of C&C modding though)...and a much larger install base wins out. QUICK_EDIT
There isn't. period. If you;ve gone to the official site, they've said it a thousand times. No MP in Uprising. They said they *might* patch the uprising units into ra3's mp though. They are adding new skirmish maps, most of them will just be commander's challenge maps though. _________________ Please, read the signature rules of the forum. QUICK_EDIT
Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:47 am Post subject:
Re: Red Alert 3: Uprising and us.
Banshee wrote:
The change to the XML done in C&C3 (and I was invited to witness that, but I couldn't see it properly when I visited their studio) was the worst from EA mistake ever, from a modder's perspective.
Depends on your point of view. For me, the change to xml and w3x was one of the best thing EALA had ever done. You have way more options (like editing models with a text editor) and the basics are similiar to inis.
The problem is just that theres no way to change the unit values in single player or to edit the original models or modify civilian buildings - the only thing you could make are TCs, because they dont have to care about that.
And without the usual small balance & bugfix mods, the modding community dies pretty quickly.... _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Also Known As: banshee_revora (Steam) Joined: 15 Aug 2002 Location: Brazil
Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:15 am Post subject:
I've fixed the news. There is no MP, according to some of APOC's posts a while ago. I didn't pay enough attention to this detail when I was writting the news. Sorry.
Quote:
They were good to mod due to the engine being set up nicely for modding. Since BFME2 EA's been drifting more and more into territory where the games are less modder friendly. Is it due to how complicated modern game making is? maybe its due to the guys internally not having a clue what helps/hurts modders? I'm not sure...but the fact remains that when it comes time to do an SDK they have to go back in and un-do a lot of stuff they did (or re-do it to make it modding friendly). This takes money and manpower...and a lot of convincing to make it happen.
I did not blame the SDK. The SDK is a work around to make modding viable for these games. The whole file format to compress the XML that introduced the closed source modding is the thing that I've blamed in the news. If they didn't do it, there wouldn't be any need for a SDK at all.. perharps the exception would be the exporter for 3dsmax, which is always welcomed and the W3X viewer tool.
Quote:
For me, the change to xml and w3x was one of the best thing EALA had ever done.
XML isn't the problem. The problem is the compressed XML that can't be used as sample. In short, the closed source modding. People can't learn with the previous experience from others on their own. QUICK_EDIT
Well, I guess it's understandable that the SDK is for vanilla RA3 only - Uprising doesn't seem to offer any new coding elements (judging from the new units, they can all be done in RA3) and the lack of any MP components pretty much makes modding useless, seeing that almost all SAGE mod in the recent years were focused on an MP release first for balancing and testing purposes. So the only special thing about it is the Generals Challenge (how's it called now?), which would be nice to mod but not being able to won't make the Apocalypse happen anytime sooner.
I feel however that it is very important for them to make clear how they feel towards importing Uprising content to RA3. Though time consuming, it is possible to get assets from SAGE games and re-implement them with the SDK so I'm pretty sure that once Uprising is available, people will make a partial conversion that includes most of Uprising's content.
Now, as said before, what is the problem with the compiled SAGE games is IMO not primarily that they are de facto encrypted but how EA handles this. Mainly, communication (or the lack thereof) is what brought down the TW modding community. Not knowing what we can expect from them, what information might be available in the future, not knowing what the community must do itself and what is rendered obsolete because there's already something in development - that's worse than anything else. _________________ Off Duty. QUICK_EDIT
XML isn't the problem. The problem is the compressed XML that can't be used as sample. In short, the closed source modding. People can't learn with the previous experience from others on their own.
EA released the uncompiled XML files, which should be more than enough to understand how everything works.
Its not like mods developed new module tags (even through I admit that TWA has some things that wont work with the default compiler ).
After all, most people are willing to share their codes or at least descripe how things work, so being able to see the files from other mods is not important. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
By pure virture of having to compile everytime you make a change, it will be nothing but a pain in the ass. Trial and error will have to be completley thrown out the door because of it being soo time consuming. So you will have to make vast changes at once, right? This leads to more errors, which led to frustrated modders. Mods may be looking prettier, but coding wise do you think their getting worse?
As for the amount of people making the transition, look at this site alone. Lets say that people started with TS modding here. How many made the transition to RA2? Alot, but not all. Now how many made the transition to Generals? A whole lot less. Transitioning to newer games isn't exaclty an easy task, you basically have to learn alto of modding over again. Add in a new file format, a new art format (which requires 3dsMax) and compiling, and you don't have that attractive a game to mod.
Too bad they didn't make an intermediate game that uses like uncompressed XMLs.
People should start modding Generals before they try modding TW or even Ra3 imo. _________________ Please, read the signature rules of the forum. QUICK_EDIT
Omega's correct, EA said they might release a patch with Uprising's maps for RA3. _________________ Please, read the signature rules of the forum. QUICK_EDIT
By pure virture of having to compile everytime you make a change, it will be nothing but a pain in the ass. Trial and error will have to be completley thrown out the door because of it being soo time consuming. So you will have to make vast changes at once, right? This leads to more errors, which led to frustrated modders. Mods may be looking prettier, but coding wise do you think their getting worse?
The TW compiler has an inbuilt error report that does automatically list syntax errors and points out the possible alternatives. The XML structure also allows checking formating errors with most text editors. Unless having tons of models, compiling a mod takes less than one minute, even a big mod (200mb) can be properly debugged if it's made modular - when done right, you can switch on/off abilities, units and even whole factions with changing not more than two lines of code.
Once you have a game element working, using inherits, defines and XIncludes makes it incredibly easy to expand these to other objects and modify settings without risking c/p errors.
Yes, compiler modding is different - but it's neither worse nor better.
DaFool wrote:
As for the amount of people making the transition, look at this site alone. Lets say that people started with TS modding here. How many made the transition to RA2? Alot, but not all. Now how many made the transition to Generals? A whole lot less. Transitioning to newer games isn't exaclty an easy task, you basically have to learn alto of modding over again. Add in a new file format, a new art format (which requires 3dsMax) and compiling, and you don't have that attractive a game to mod.
The model and code formats have been extremely consistent in all the SAGE RTS - there's little difference in the work flow. A skilled Gens modder won't need more than a week to get used to TW.
And let's be honest, "requiring 3DS Max" never was an issue for this community. Sure it sucks not to be able to include "certain things" in tutorials and user guides and ztyping shit I'd so hope that GMax returns (or Blender gets some luving on im/exporters and stops being a complete bitch to newbies), but it's kind of a minor issue. Especially when half the people upset about the requirement to use 3DS are using Photoshop.
DaFool wrote:
Too bad they didn't make an intermediate game that uses like uncompressed XMLs.
Using compressed XMLs was a means to make the games run faster - which they do. A lot.
The inis used in previous SAGE RTS are pretty much the same as the XMLs, minus their formating.
DaFool wrote:
People should start modding Generals before they try modding TW or even Ra3 imo.
3dsMax has the whole cost thing to it, which for 'honest' people is a major hurdle. Especially for casual modders who mod because they enjoy purely and not because they are hoping to break into the game industry/are majoring in a related field in college. Of course, there are the unspoken parts of teh internets...
The first time I looked at the XMLs, I hadn't modded generals yet, and the codes looked like hell. I just looked looked at the coded again, and they don't look as bad. Just a bit intense (lots of these <> and different colors). Their struture does seem very similar to generals ini.
The learning curve is still very steep for newbies. If you pulled a kid off the street and taught him how to mod, it would take e heck of a lot longer to teach him TW than say Ra2. Which is a porblem because younger kids (for the most part) aren't gonna want to play old games to learn how to mod, they'd rather go straight for the latest and greatest, which sadly is going to be very complicated (tw). _________________ Please, read the signature rules of the forum. QUICK_EDIT
Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:16 pm Post subject:
EAShortbus
Red Alert 3 was fun. I only liked Japan though. I'm incapable of playing as Allies but Soviets aren't too bad. No matter what map I play on I find myself spamming Tengus but as soon as my opponent starts to tank spam I have to fend them off by upgrading my factory to build my own tanks since I hardly ever use the barracks after capturing oil and doing the occasional APC rush. Usually it's an easier and more reliable win for me to just start to take over water and not spend on a big land force so when I do get steamrolled with little resistance I'll have Destroyers built within a couple of minutes and most of the ore nodes in safer areas around the map which allows me to retake my base area and proceed to rape everything on land.
This game is really limited because this is the only strategy I ever use. I liked the game for a couple of days but I'm disappointed. I can't believe people would buy this expansion. I think this game is better than Tiberium Wars and Generals just because there is the high recovery aspect that I've found when switching to water.
I'm really disappointed with C&C these days but there's been not much else out there so I'm still here. Barely... I used to do modding a little. I can't be assed to learn this new stuff. Modding Tiberian Sun was easy and somewhat fun. There is no reason to mode these days I don't think unless you have a brilliant mod idea and a talented team which even if you do have will probably result in a pretty mediocre mod. I don't see why people bother. The tools are definitely a major problem. QUICK_EDIT
And that's the problem. You have to rely on EA releasing the uncompiled XML files for everything or else mods will end up still having issues EA have patched and lack anything added. It's simply not modder friendly. QUICK_EDIT
And that's the problem. You have to rely on EA releasing the uncompiled XML files for everything or else mods will end up still having issues EA have patched and lack anything added. It's simply not modder friendly.
The new XML files were released extremely fast in the past. They even addressed the SDK3/V1.09 manifest problem quickly. At worst, this means having about 2 days in which one cannot already port the mod to the next version - which isn't necessary at all for TCs, partly necessary for PCs and irrelevant for developing nwe features based on module workarounds - they never change those. _________________ Off Duty. QUICK_EDIT
People should start modding Generals before they try modding TW or even Ra3 imo.
Seriously?
If you can't look at the C&C3 code and work out what's doing what 90% of the time I'm surprised you can operate a PC, it's equally as easy and obvious as learning that Cost= in TS/RA2 is the price of a unit.
All you have to remember is to copy and paste the whole module that's relevant to what you're doing rather than just the variable like you would in the none-3D games and the trade off is significently less hard coded limits like those in TS/RA2.
Ctrl+F is the key to the vast majority of coding anyone is going to do in C&C3, nothing is stopping people making all the naff little projects that used to crop up for TS/RA2 every other day apart from the fact that whining is far easier.
The having to wait for code thing is a concern, even if they're quick with the releases it's still a delay, but it's one that much better engines face aswell. It takes a little while for updated source to appear on the Unreal Developer Network when UT3 gets patched, though you can decompile the code out of the game if you're in a rush.
Realistically though how often did patches break your code? I had some half finished stuff in C&C3 that was always fine and even if it wasn't you could tell the game to load an older version when running your mod until you could update.
Anyone who thinks there's something wrong with C&C3 for modding need only look at MEC2, they've turned out a very professional modification with the same support, tools and access as everyone else. Asylum is looking like it'll be equally as good.
It's not perfect by any means but C&C3 is a good platform for RTS mods following the same gameplay style, people need to put some of the effort they expell bashing it into getting a team together and making things for it. And if it's really that bad then move onto Unreal Engine 3 or something like that. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 14 Nov 2004 Location: In the Edge of /dev/null
Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:01 pm Post subject:
From the first post of Banshee I can only understand a thing: C&C Saga is keepen alive only for an near-death fan community. The initial message comming from Westwood of this extraordinary game has been completely lost.
Even having Frank Klepacki on RA3, IMHO, don't have result in the hoped effect.
The problem here is EA. He have acquired a game project only seeing the money that he could have done with it. Of course, the history learn to all of us that there's no the correct way to grow anything.
For example, about RA3, I have seen only a new graphic. The game concept and strategy beyond all the colorful tanks was very weak and old. Ideas taken from Generals or always the usual present in all the C&C games. Nothing new. The game, in this way, is boring, thing that EA have never understand from the success of C&C1.
C&C1 was strategy. Ok, it was not very well balanced but this was what keep the player from Tank Rushing and so on.
About the rest. C&C now include only what we have always repress in our worst nightmares. No strategy, gamestory inexistent or pretty stupid, briefing soften so much that we are not far to see Eva McKenna to come tu cuddle the player if a miserable airplane has been destroyed, Booby Lieutenant, Toy-like tanks full of color and effects but very far from a military battlefield (what was beautiful, in C&C1 is that Tiberian Dawn was a Strategy-in-Real-Time Military Game, what the last games seems not) and so on.
This is not the spirit of C&C IMHO. If EA will release another Military game like Generals, Ok, but from the rest, I feel that this saga has meet his end.
Quote:
Now reason with me: closed source modding (compressed XML files) that modders need to rely on EA's mood to get the latest XML files, we need to compile the mod every time change the mod (and it takes time), coding errors are hard to track, we cannot mod the expansion of any game, world builder is usually bugged to hell, we are forced to install a rootkit on our machines to run the game, the expansion comes as download only and requires a connection enough stable to download a 5gb+ file and an international credit card, and the list grows...
No modding data (Deezire have always try to infiltrate the code to understand what gears was moving under the frame), Closed source logic (so the "See and understand" method of mod the game is no more available, thing that, with the No modding data issue make the game very hard to modify), compiling with all the time wasted doing this and so one, World Map bugged. No, IMHO EA is trying all the weapon in his possess to discourgage the modding of the game.
It's strange that, until now, no one have tried to Reverse Engineering the game (using the Chinese Wall method, there's no Copyright infringement, because you rewrite the entire code, so this is yours, not them), in order to produce an open C&C engine. Maybe is because EA would not use their concept property like GDI, NOD, Scrin and so on.
You can watch the 3rd Star Wars first, but it would make more sense if you watch them in order.
I'd rather learn how to do something first before I just c/p and pop, it works in game. Generals is a simplier game than TW, so you learn little by little. You could just go straight to modding TW, but it's not the best way. Your latin teacher doesn't just give you a lation dictionary and the Aeneid and send you to the corner, right? _________________ Please, read the signature rules of the forum. QUICK_EDIT
Wasn't it Westwood who sold C&C? You know, for money? RA3 builds on what made RA2 a well liked game, a game that many claim to be the best of all C&C - tis an obvious thing to build thine work on that which hast been wanted before, art it not?
PUOJACKZ wrote:
No modding data (Deezire have always try to infiltrate the code to understand what gears was moving under the frame), Closed source logic (so the "See and understand" method of mod the game is no more available, thing that, with the No modding data issue make the game very hard to modify), compiling with all the time wasted doing this and so one, World Map bugged. No, IMHO EA is trying all the weapon in his possess to discourgage the modding of the game.
Then why did they make an SDK for TW at all? Why proceed with doing one for RA3? Why allow for mods that don't even use one of their games to fully use their franchise?
The game XMLs can be fully viewed with the SDK, furthermore the schemas offer a complete map of 98% of the game modules (not that they are made for that purpose, but still...), a compiled mod is frigging faster to test than the old Gens mods (as the code can be used as a patch stream for the model/sound/art stream thus having compiling times of less than a minute while Gens would need as much time to load the textures alone) and so far I haven't heard of any mod team denying help for others to mimic features of their mod. There's simply almost no one using the goddam tools anyways, so why expand them?
PUOJACKZ wrote:
It's strange that, until now, no one have tried to Reverse Engineering the game (using the Chinese Wall method, there's no Copyright infringement, because you rewrite the entire code, so this is yours, not them), in order to produce an open C&C engine. Maybe is because EA would not use their concept property like GDI, NOD, Scrin and so on.
Seriously, if someone wastes their time to completely copy an engine only to then also copy the game it runs - he's got WAY too much time and WAY too little creativity. That's a complete waste of time.
DaFool wrote:
You can watch the 3rd Star Wars first, but it would make more sense if you watch them in order.
I'd rather learn how to do something first before I just c/p and pop, it works in game. Generals is a simplier game than TW, so you learn little by little. You could just go straight to modding TW, but it's not the best way. Your latin teacher doesn't just give you a lation dictionary and the Aeneid and send you to the corner, right?
As it stands, most people of the community are willing to learn neither. Sure it's easier to learn French when you already know Latin, but if you know none than it's best to go for French directly and worst to do nothing but just hoping that it miraculously gets easier. _________________ Off Duty. QUICK_EDIT
I'm not learning freaking latin! But the thing is I started learning french when I was a little kid and was told what hello, goodbye and thank you were. I wasn't launched straight into it, given etre, avior and the rest them made to speak in complete sentences. There's no shallow end, it's in for a penny, in for a pound (so to speak), it's the shallow end that gets people started and without that there's a huge drop in numbers, why not get the engine to read uncompiled XMLs with the performance penalty if they're there, the predator spamming online arseholes neither know nor care and it makes everything SO MUCH EASIER.
L'idee ca c'est le probleme de nous est complutout merde, latin mon derier! _________________ Yes, work on MV continues. It is not forgotten. QUICK_EDIT
Ideas taken from Generals or always the usual present in all the C&C games. Nothing new.
The usual present in all C&C games is what makes RA3 a C&C game. Of course, EA could break out of the established formula and actually go for something new instead of clinging to the usual-present-in-all-C&C stuff like MCVs and structure capture via Engineers, and harvester/refinery resource system... but then I'm sure some people will whine that the C&C feel is lost.
And how many ideas exactly came from Generals? Aside from the support power system which is vaguely similar, and the more blatant Natasha vehicle snipe (from Jarmen Kell) and Guardian Tank's laser (from ZH Avenger), I don't see any other major Generals-influenced ideas. The nanocores, naval structure building, transforming EotRS units, amphibious combat, co-op campaign... all these aren't from Generals...
PUOJACKZ wrote:
No strategy, gamestory inexistent or pretty stupid, briefing soften so much that we are not far to see Eva McKenna to come tu cuddle the player if a miserable airplane has been destroyed, Booby Lieutenant, Toy-like tanks full of color and effects but very far from a military battlefield
This sounds just like RA2! Man that game sure was hateful. All the weaponised animals and other crazy shit. Oh and its expansion took it up another notch too. UFO and giant brain in a tank... and the MOON BASE...
One giant leap for C&C yes!?
...yes I didn't like RA2 because of how far it deviated from RA1's style (damn Westwood Pacific had to go down the crazy route).
I agree with Golan on RA3 building up on RA2's established style. In fact I firmly believe anyone who downright hates RA3 themes but somehow likes RA2 themes is a bloody hypocrite, because the themes for both games are practically one and the same, with the differences being really minor stuff like the presence of Japanese people. _________________
The white lady~! QUICK_EDIT
Ra2 was at least easily moddable and moddable in the same way as its precursor (TS), and at least RA2 didn'tgo down the stripped out arsenals route, there were many different silly ways to kill and destroy. 8 infantry for stock YR allies with 3 secret inf... RA3? 6 with 0 secret ones... 6 for the russkies compared to 9 in RA2 and 8 in YR plus the 3 secret ones... even Yuri, the cobbled together side had 6 plus the secret inf.
I'm not a fan of silly, but if you do at least give it in good dosages, and easy to mess with. _________________ Yes, work on MV continues. It is not forgotten. QUICK_EDIT
I'll go down the obvious route and state... the obvious. Look at the ridiculous ideas from RA2, RA3
Mastermind: A giant brain on a tank body.
King Oni: A giant mech with OMGWTFORZ laser eyes.
I would actually find the mech more believable, but lets look at Yuri vs EoRS
Yuri's Army: Psychic army including giant brains, giant mutants, flying disks, magnets on wheels and Bio-reactors.
EoRS: Japan based army including Ninja's, giant mechs, mobile buildings, spy-drone thing and a psychic schoolgirl.
Now call me crazy but I actually think that EoRS is slightly more realistic than Yuri, but RA2 and RA3 have a lot in common in zaniness. Hell I always found the Kirov retarded and a huge stray from what I was thinking Russia would have if a sequel ever came out. The only reason I tolerated it was because the game play well made up for the art style.
Anyway, if you DO like the RA2 style then I don't see why you don't like RA3's. I can understand if you hate how RA3 plays, but don't make things up as you go along to try to gain support. /rant
I don't see what the problem is with not getting editing tools for the expansion pack. It seems like a singleplayer missions addon. _________________ Comcast: Yo dawg we herd yo were downloading, so we put fail in yo modem so yo cant download while yo failin! QUICK_EDIT
I'm not a fan of silly, but if you do at least give it in good dosages, and easy to mess with.
My comfortably preferred level for silly is around say, MEC2's level. RA2 definitely went beyond that, YR went even farther, and RA3 just kept the ball rolling.
Apex you forgot to mention the giant squids. The RA2 intro when I first saw it actually looked kinds serious but I started laughing when I saw a try-to-be-ominous squid swim past the submarine... at that time in my mind, "Under the Sea" from the Little Mermaid soundtrack was playing...
Yeah the EotRS is actually more realistic. If you cut out the psionic elements, the technology level is easily believable in anywhere from Star Wars to Halo. Problem is... it's a post Cold War era for RA3! _________________
The white lady~! QUICK_EDIT
I'm not learning freaking latin! But the thing is I started learning french when I was a little kid and was told what hello, goodbye and thank you were. I wasn't launched straight into it, given etre, avior and the rest them made to speak in complete sentences. There's no shallow end, it's in for a penny, in for a pound (so to speak), it's the shallow end that gets people started and without that there's a huge drop in numbers, why not get the engine to read uncompiled XMLs with the performance penalty if they're there, the predator spamming online arseholes neither know nor care and it makes everything SO MUCH EASIER.
Eh, getting the mod compiled for TW really shouldn't be a problem. You have to create mod.xml and include your files and that's pretty much it, the SDK can handle the rest by itself. You could even modify the SDK to directly launch the mod when it's properly compiled. It uses frigging bat files, how much easier can it get?
If a basic TW mod doesn't compile, then a similar Gen mod will outright crash the game.
I mean, what point are you trying to make here? If the game were to "automatically" compile your mod, you'd still have to wait for it compiling, you'd still have to set up the SDK components and you'd actually loose a ton of functionality of the SDK.
Yes, the documentation is bullshit for someone who never modded a SAGE game before. But getting the basic setup and tinkering with some values isn't exactly rocket science...
Lt Albrecht wrote:
L'idee ca c'est le probleme de nous est complutout merde, latin mon derier!
That's what I call a nice way to end a post. Ich mag dich auch. :[ _________________ Off Duty. QUICK_EDIT
First part, I'm not saying compile it. That's the point, compiling takes time, why not let it read uncompiled files if they're left loose, it'd let them test balancing issues easier plus it'd be dead easy for modders to use the prooven "trial and error" tactics that have served us since RA1. And I don't speak german, English is my firsrt language, and I'm studying french; that's the point. Plus I probably missed the inflections on e's and it most likely has terrible grammar, but the last three words don't need a genius to translate. _________________ Yes, work on MV continues. It is not forgotten. QUICK_EDIT
But it still needs to be "compiled" to a certain degree, Generals too takes some time to make the mod files ready for the game - it just does this on a much lower level. However, having a game feature two actual levels of data processing is wishful thinking.
And please, let's be serious, fixing balancing issues on a runtime basis? A proper mod won't take longer than a couple of minutes to compile a patch stream for code that takes days to balance test.
You can already do the "trial and error" procedure as the compiler checks if your code is valid. This is actually marginally faster than running one of the older games with a mod and testing it in game.
Well, it's a shame that you don't speak the language I used. I do speak the one you were using. A really heartwarming way to end a post indeed... _________________ Off Duty. QUICK_EDIT
The problem with compiled code is that you can't go into the the game's files to look at the code, and you can't mod the game unless you have the compiler. You must depend on the parent company to provide both. _________________ Please, read the signature rules of the forum. QUICK_EDIT
Mods revive again and again games from the past and keep them thriving until the original gamers die off or grow out of it. This is why Tiberian Sun still lives on. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
From this we can get two things:
1) EA actually does get money from modding in the long run as mods attract people to buy the game (I bought [The Fucking DVD] because people modded YR not RA2).
2)you need to get a more original sig/avvy _________________ Yes, work on MV continues. It is not forgotten. QUICK_EDIT
It's strange that, until now, no one have tried to Reverse Engineering the game (using the Chinese Wall method, there's no Copyright infringement, because you rewrite the entire code, so this is yours, not them), in order to produce an open C&C engine. Maybe is because EA would not use their concept property like GDI, NOD, Scrin and so on.
Seriously, if someone wastes their time to completely copy an engine only to then also copy the game it runs - he's got WAY too much time and WAY too little creativity. That's a complete waste of time.
Red Alert 2/Yuri's Revenge, for example, to pass the limits related to the core of the game, have received, from the community, some non-official patch, elaborated from reverse engineering of the code.
It's completely a non-sense, in my opinion, that EA continue to strip and add code in their engine everytime they push another title in the market.
"We have to introduce the walls in the C&C3 engine, but the code is implemented?"
"We don't know, in BFME2 there was, even the gates logic, but maybe now, in the core, that part is broken"
What?!? What?!?
You have created a piece of code and you broken it in the next release?
If this is the way they code the next release of the game, respect of the old one, My GOD, now I understand why I have to patched C&C3 just after buying it. After have installed it and double-clicked on the .exe, it crash miserably. Apart for the fact that they have launch a game without the correct period of bug-testing, but apart of this, if they evolve an old code, it has no sense to strip part only because they don't use it.
This is the reason of my phrase:
Quote:
Ideas taken from Generals or always the usual present in all the C&C games. Nothing new.
You have introduced something new on Generals? I could be used to make the game more strategic? Ok, proceed in this way. And instead they not. Only new graphic, and this was the same blame I have read about EA for the second title of Crysis.
About the Reverse Engineering OpenSource code. This would let the people create mods of the game more accurately and performing, without to "Hope that the feature is present in the engine". It's not a waste of time, if you're tired to find a workaround for the mistakes hardcoded by EA in their games (but the DRM fuctions are working perfectly huh? Of course...).
About Uprising, have you any news about the presence of DRM inside the game? Their idea of release a little "Mod" of RA3 via internet dowload is to avoid the costs of media supporting it? QUICK_EDIT
First off I find any DRM is a waste of time because no matter how tough you make it, once its released its open to be worked on by every pirate, cracker and hacker out there. So it only hurts the customer with strict guidelines.
And they tried to follow the way the RA series was going with the art style. I usually don't usually judge a game by art style but its the game play that I hated, but the art style isn't something I like but gameplay didn't make up for it so I wasted $47.49 on that game. _________________ Comcast: Yo dawg we herd yo were downloading, so we put fail in yo modem so yo cant download while yo failin! QUICK_EDIT
It's strange that, until now, no one have tried to Reverse Engineering the game (using the Chinese Wall method, there's no Copyright infringement, because you rewrite the entire code, so this is yours, not them), in order to produce an open C&C engine. Maybe is because EA would not use their concept property like GDI, NOD, Scrin and so on.
Seriously, if someone wastes their time to completely copy an engine only to then also copy the game it runs - he's got WAY too much time and WAY too little creativity. That's a complete waste of time.
Red Alert 2/Yuri's Revenge, for example, to pass the limits related to the core of the game, have received, from the community, some non-official patch, elaborated from reverse engineering of the code.
Didn't say anything about patching the engine. Still, I guess in their current state EA would not tolerate an engine patch.
Anonymous wrote:
It's completely a non-sense, in my opinion, that EA continue to strip and add code in their engine everytime they push another title in the market.
"We have to introduce the walls in the C&C3 engine, but the code is implemented?"
"We don't know, in BFME2 there was, even the gates logic, but maybe now, in the core, that part is broken"
What?!? What?!?
You have created a piece of code and you broken it in the next release?
It's called optimization. No need to cluster the engine with unused functions as this is even more likely to break something.
Walls were never meant to be part of C&C3 after the first internal testing stages, so there really isn't much need of polishing it's code - after all, the code still does work.
Anonymous wrote:
If this is the way they code the next release of the game, respect of the old one, My GOD, now I understand why I have to patched C&C3 just after buying it. After have installed it and double-clicked on the .exe, it crash miserably. Apart for the fact that they have launch a game without the correct period of bug-testing, but apart of this, if they evolve an old code, it has no sense to strip part only because they don't use it.
This is the reason of my phrase:
Quote:
Ideas taken from Generals or always the usual present in all the C&C games. Nothing new.
You have introduced something new on Generals? I could be used to make the game more strategic? Ok, proceed in this way. And instead they not. Only new graphic, and this was the same blame I have read about EA for the second title of Crysis.
Many game elements, including for example the generals powers, were taken over from Generals to TW and RA3. Gameplay was also partially taken over and refined (like with the directional armor etc.).
Anyways, SAGE is already full of glitches, imagine they'd have to take care of all the functions of earlier installments as well...
Anonymous wrote:
About the Reverse Engineering OpenSource code. This would let the people create mods of the game more accurately and performing, without to "Hope that the feature is present in the engine". It's not a waste of time, if you're tired to find a workaround for the mistakes hardcoded by EA in their games (but the DRM fuctions are working perfectly huh? Of course...).
When rewriting a complete game, why stick to an existing shitty engine like SAGE? It doesn't really make it any better and if it's modified enough to run properly, there's no point copying it instead if making a proper engine in the first place.
Or one could, you know, switch to an engine that's actually made for this. _________________ Off Duty. QUICK_EDIT
"We don't know, in BFME2 there was, even the gates logic, but maybe now, in the core, that part is broken"
What?!? What?!?
You have created a piece of code and you broken it in the next release?
They propably rewrote the pathfinding, so it was easier to delete the gate code instead of updating it. After all, why spend time to update something that you are not going to use?
Quote:
1) EA actually does get money from modding in the long run as mods attract people to buy the game (I bought [The ztyping DVD] because people modded YR not RA2).
Considering that EA propably get a lot less than 10$ from every sold copy of the game, I would bet that the amout of money they get from modders is quite small (at least considering for EAs standards). Not to mention the amount of money & time it takes to make the game modable...
(and again, I am amazed how many people who never modded TW take part in this discussion...) _________________ QUICK_EDIT
If it was easier I'd do it they'd have my £39.99 instead of Nandos, man that chicken in peri peri sauce was worth it...
Get the point? They get more than a crappy 25%, these guys published, produced and distributed it, there is one middle man for most of the copies: the shop... And online they even cut that out and get an extra £2.50 to send it to you! Seriously... How much does a first class stamp and one of those bubble-wrappey envelopes cost?
And if they supported modding and sustained the game people would be buying and playing it for years look at TD! There are enough people for Tore to set up a dedicated TD server! RA1 is still popular, you only have to look at XWIS to see the communities for TS, RA2, YR and rens are still about. Why? Rens was moddable up the arse, it was integral, it even lets you bundle a mod as a little package selectable at the game setup stage.
As for the rest? They have replay value, sure the XWIS community has this annoying rift with us lot, but they still play even, what? how many years since TS's release? ten? 1999 wasn't it? _________________ Yes, work on MV continues. It is not forgotten. QUICK_EDIT
Make a game modable. Well...hmmm...lets see. Rise Of Nations, if anyone is familiar with it. The creators made the game modable from beginning and even went the extra mile to put a mod selector in it. If they were smart enough to do it from the beginning, EA wouldn't need to spend money on making patches and extra programs for modding. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
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Red Alert 3: Uprising and us.
It's too small of an expansion to even warrant one.
).
