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Need help trying to unprotect protected .mix files
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Shadow Hunter
Cyborg Commando


Joined: 30 Aug 2008
Location: Brazil.

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:09 am    Post subject:  Need help trying to unprotect protected .mix files
Subject description: I'm having some problems! >_<
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Hello users,i was trying to open a protected .mix from a mod (not to steal, but for improve my coding and all) and i tried trying to use that tutorial: http://www.ppmsite.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22967 ...but i was stopped in the "STEP" 3 and then get confused, soo, someone can help me to open a protected .mix? (i promise, i won't will steal nothing!)

i really just need a better explanation!

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ApolloTD
Commander


Joined: 19 Nov 2003

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

and what would this particular mod be you seek to learn something (?) from?

you could try asking the mod person in question too.

if its just coding you seek to learn, you can be helped even without this "aid" if you tell what you need to learn that the mod has done but sure, pursue as you see fit but i'm just telling there might be alternatives. Smile

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Shadow Hunter
Cyborg Commando


Joined: 30 Aug 2008
Location: Brazil.

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

well, the mod is the "Third War" , it has much things that shall help me to improve my coding area, and all, but the mixes are protected! Sad

Anyway i wanna learn how to unprotect protected .mix for futures researchs in rulesmd.ini's Laughing

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ApolloTD
Commander


Joined: 19 Nov 2003

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread


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ArvinCool
Tiberian Beast


Joined: 01 Jun 2008

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Check your inbox Wink

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Nighthawk
Vehicle Drone


Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Location: Northern Ireland

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Now, I'm not so keen on this whole freely hacking into other people's mods when they've purposely been protected with the intent to stop people poking around in them.

My mod uses public assets, as well as some of my own. My own graphical assets are made purposely for that mod, so I'm not allowing them to be used elsewhere. Public assets that are in there are/were available for download elsewhere, so whomever made them deserves credit.

As for the coding. Define "improve my coding". If there's issues you're having with your coding, I don't see why it's not just possible to ask for help. If you're wondering how I specifically did something, then feel free to ask about it, but I'm not comfortable with people poking around within my mod's stuff.

The whole reason for protecting the mixes in the first place was to stop people like you going through my mod.

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OmegaBolt
President


Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Location: York, England

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hi i want graphics for my mod and i cant make them can someone plz link help me open a mix file so i can... "learn"

thx

p.s im putting code red into iloos robot storm mod, if you want to beta test email me: canihasyourmod@hotmail.ripper

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aristurtle
Vehicle Drone


Joined: 13 Apr 2009

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

facepalm

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OmegaBolt
President


Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Location: York, England

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hi whats facepalm? cant i have it for my mod pls thx

email me

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Renegade
Cyborg Artillery


Joined: 21 May 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

So wait.
The dude asks for help on his regular account (454 posts so far).
And you immediately (albeit subtly) accuse him of being a ripper.

If he did rip the mod, would you not

  • immediately know it was him?
  • immediately know where to find him?
  • have, through the moderators, his e-mail- and IP-address?
  • be able to prove he is a ripper, through this very thread?

Would it not be a rather silly idea to ask for ripping help under your normal account?

As I said before: Accessing is not ripping.
Your argumentation is no different from a music executive saying that all filesharing activities are always and with no exception illegal. It just doesn't hold true in reality, and it doesn't make you look smart if you keep insisting on obviously bogus claims.

Accessing is not ripping. The fact that he would like to have a look inside Nighthawk's mix does not automatically make him a ripper.
Wait for him to commit a crime before you convict him.

-----------------------------
@ShadowHunter: I suppose you mean step 3 in the short version; this step is related to endianness, or the way a number is ordered when it is saved.
Aristurtle explains it like this higher up:
Aristurtle wrote:
if bytes 04 and 05 (the number of files) are 0xB801, you need to rearrange this to 0x01B8 to get the actual number of files.

So if the start of the MIX is
00 00 00 00 2F 00
you would take the blue part, 2F 00, switch it around, 00 2F, and then ask google "0x002F in decimal" - and it would tell you there are 47 files in the mix.
That number would be used in the formula provided later.

That's how I understand it, anyway.

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OmegaBolt
President


Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Location: York, England

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ROFL Renegade, always up for an argument in which, if this had the power to continue, you would deflect.

Unfortunately in no way did my post state that this man, Shadow Hunter, wanted to rip assets.




but i do thx
(email for mod)

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aristurtle
Vehicle Drone


Joined: 13 Apr 2009

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

So, we're going to have this argument again? Really? Does either side think it will actually go anywhere?

Anyway, yeah, Renegade clarified Step 3, and the tutorial really isn't too difficult, here. It's not like you have to crack Blowfish or something.

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CCHyper
Defense Minister


Joined: 07 Apr 2005

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I dont mind about this, becuase i know a much stronger way of protecting files...

*waits for aristurtle to kill that too* xD

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Nighthawk
Vehicle Drone


Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Location: Northern Ireland

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I know he hasn't outrightly stated that he's ripped anything. Unfortunately I'm just too paranoid a person to take the chance with condoning anything. #Tongue

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aristurtle
Vehicle Drone


Joined: 13 Apr 2009

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Something I would like to point out: while you personally might be willing to answer some random "how did you pull off effect X in rules.ini" question, Nighthawk, and that's quite commendable, what happens when someone has a question about a mod where the team has long since moved on from this hobby, as happens frequently in this community? I think it's important to be able to get at the source.

(On the other hand, the tutorial really isn't particularly difficult if you try to understand it before asking for help.)

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Aro
Alcohol Fueled


Joined: 10 Sep 2006

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Renegade wrote:
Accessing is not ripping. The fact that he would like to have a look inside Nighthawk's mix does not automatically make him a ripper.
Wait for him to commit a crime before you convict him.


Nobody said that accessing the files was ripping, but I highly doubt anybody will go through the trouble of trying to open a locked mix file just to look at a line of text in one of the .INI files while that person could simply post a help topic on the forums. I'm not accusing you by the way Shadow, just making a statement.

aristurtle wrote:
what happens when someone has a question about a mod where the team has long since moved on from this hobby, as happens frequently in this community? I think it's important to be able to get at the source.


Well those people may not be the only ones in the world that know how to make such a code you know. It never hurts to ask.

Hyper wrote:
I dont mind about this, becuase i know a much stronger way of protecting files...

*waits for aristurtle to kill that too* xD


Good shit.

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aristurtle
Vehicle Drone


Joined: 13 Apr 2009

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hyper wrote:
I dont mind about this, becuase i know a much stronger way of protecting files...

*waits for aristurtle to kill that too* xD


I already know how to break it.

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CCHyper
Defense Minister


Joined: 07 Apr 2005

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

But you dont know what it is!

From what i have read though, only dumping a image of its process in the RAM and then fixing up address with crack it...

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ArvinCool
Tiberian Beast


Joined: 01 Jun 2008

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Renegade wrote:
y and then ask google "0x002F in decimal"

the microsoft calculator does that to well:) just enable advanced settings

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Nighthawk
Vehicle Drone


Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Location: Northern Ireland

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
what happens when someone has a question about a mod where the team has long since moved on from this hobby


Well, I'm not certain about action to take in that situation, and I'm not going to attempt to dictate a policy for that scenario.

I'm just responding to the topic at hand, which is revolving around accessing protected files within my own mod, which I protected to stop people going through them. I have given my answer to this specific situation, so it's down to Shadow Hunter.

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CCHyper
Defense Minister


Joined: 07 Apr 2005

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Learn to convert Decimal to Hexdecimal and vice versa in your head, that way you wont get alzheimer's when you turn 50 you lazy gits #Tongue

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aristurtle
Vehicle Drone


Joined: 13 Apr 2009

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

And, for clarification to Shadowwhomever:

1) nobody really cares what you do on your own, personal computer.

2) if you release a mod that contains code or art assets used without permission, the community will find out and they will skull-ztype you. Don't do it. Don't be stupid.


Hyper: Big deal: I can "protect" a MIX so well that YR can't read it. Tongue

(Any mixes not "protected" to this extent are readable.)


Nighthawk: RA2.MIX had " purposely been protected with the intent to stop people poking around in them" far more thoroughly than your own files. I'm just saying.

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Orac
President


Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hyper wrote:
I know a much stronger way of protecting files...

Oh! Oh! You write them on the back of a napkin, soak them in coffee, and then shove them into a USB port? #Tongue

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CCHyper
Defense Minister


Joined: 07 Apr 2005

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yea i gather you could too, i think pd did the same once so only XCC could read it but it totaly killed YR

I dont know much about file formats, hardly looking into the MixFileClass, did a little with the ShapeEngine though, but no luck XD

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MadHQ
Commander


Joined: 07 Nov 2003

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Shadow Hunter your an idiot.

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aristurtle
Vehicle Drone


Joined: 13 Apr 2009

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

misspelling the word "you're" when calling someone an idiot == instant hilarity

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OmegaBolt
President


Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Location: York, England

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

aristurtle wrote:
misspelling the word "you're" when calling someone an idiot == instant hilarity

Not being able to use punctuation such as a CAPITAL LETTER and a FULL STOP while trying to take the piss = instant and epic failure.

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ArvinCool
Tiberian Beast


Joined: 01 Jun 2008

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

why does the leech killer fans keep flaming these topic? selfish jerks you are no diffrence that those asshole that wants to close thepiratebay, you are no diffrence than DRM supporters, you are no diffrence from EA that locked RA3 files

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aristurtle
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Joined: 13 Apr 2009

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here in America (ztype YEAH!) we call them "periods," not "full stops."

(Man, everyone takes everything so seriously here!)

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Aro
Alcohol Fueled


Joined: 10 Sep 2006

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yet isn't taking a misspelling of a word 'so seriously' exactly what you did?

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Lt Albrecht
Defense Minister


Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Location: Hampshire, England. Creating RA2: Moscow's vengeance

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here in england we have a nice neat word for actions like these.
We call it hypocrisy.

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aristurtle
Vehicle Drone


Joined: 13 Apr 2009

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I forgot that there is neither sarcasm nor irony on the Internet. My apologies.

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MT
General


Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Location: Wandering Time

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Aro wrote:

Nobody said that accessing the files was ripping, but I highly doubt anybody will go through the trouble of trying to open a locked mix file just to look at a line of text in one of the .INI files while that person could simply post a help topic on the forums. I'm not accusing you by the way Shadow, just making a statement.

Not everyone is perfect in coding you know. Not to embarrass shadow, but that his weak spot, and I'll bet it gets tiring having to ask for every little thing.

@ All else taking their garbage to a thread asking for help. HELP, not flame dammit.

It's quite sad how shadow stayed here for months, has decent posts, acted more reasonable than I on several occasions, and lead his mod (everything fully credited),
and is treated as a RIPPER because of one problem using the tutorial for the public to use.
If you have a problem with the tutorial, then take it somewhere else, not shadow's help thread.

EDIT:
MadHQ wrote:
Shadow Hunter your an idiot.

Perfect example here. You are attacking shadow hunter himself with no argument, nothing. Even if there was a reason then it would be the responsibility of the creators of it, not the users like shadow. There is nothing to say except this is a groundless flame.

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Clazzy
Karma Police


Joined: 26 Nov 2002
Location: Algae Colony On Mars

PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I remember when modding was fun and nobody really cared about protecting files. Weren't they fun? I will never really understand the desire to protect everything so much. When I started modding, things weren't really very accessible and when you don't have much of a clue on how to mod you do the thing that makes most sense, look at other mods and see what they have done. I tend to leave ini files loose in the TS directory. For a start, I'm lazy. Secondly, it's great for people who want to see what I've done in my mod code-wise or for people who want to just mess around. Finally, if there's ever a problem (IE, random bug, whatever) people will open the ini files and fix it themselves. This is what a community is about. It's not about small mod teams spending years making a fantastic-looking mod that will probably never see the light of day, it's about the free and open exchange of ideas. Trying to stop people from accessing your files is denying the essence of a community. How many people here look at mod files to see how something's coded or how a map is scripted? How many people have played a mod and found a bug only to find out what causes it? Perhaps even create and submit a fix? I know I have and I'm willing to bet others have too. When will people realise this is a GOOD thing?

Besides, if a person is determined they will find a way around a problem. Something like Leachkiller is just a hurdle to be jumped, nothing more.

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MadHQ
Commander


Joined: 07 Nov 2003

PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Bla... Bla... Losers!

@Clazzy: Back then no one was make really nice gfx's that took allot of time and skill to do, so no one cared.

@ArvinCool: I'm glad that The Pirate Bay got sued and lost! I pay for my games. I'm not little bitches like the most of you who steal games.

@MT: I do not have to explain my reaction, It should be very obvious. I would think any one with a brain would understand.

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Machine
Commander


Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Location: National Reference Laboratory for IPNV

PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You know you can still protect one mix and leave the rest unprotected, personally I was going to include a copy of the rules as a part of the main download, and just protect the mix with the graphics made for the mod. If someone really wanted to use them, he could just ask me for permission, and if you wanted to use it in a personal mod, well just use the whole protected mix, after all is a personal mod.
That way learning from my code is not affected (after all codding is nothing special, and anyone can do it, however graphics take a long time to make and design, and more importantly, no modifications are made to them), but asset rippers can/could be stopped.

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aristurtle
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Joined: 13 Apr 2009

PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Asset rippers are always stopped, though, which is why the whole thing is stupid. Anyone dumb enough to release product with even a few copy-pasted lines of .ini tags, let alone an entire voxel or sprite, gets dived on by the community faster than they can blink (and rightly so), so what's the damn point in mangling the MIX header in a completely reversible and ineffectual way?

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Machine
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Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Location: National Reference Laboratory for IPNV

PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

None actually, that's why I used past tense.
However, I would still dislike seeing any of my units used on a private mod with a crappy cut n paste with a palette shift job. Any modification seems disrespectful to me, though it's passable unless it's a bad job; while it's actually cool to see people using the stuff you've made, in a proper way.

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Orac
President


Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I believe that the only thing really protecting your work is a good credits list.
If you ask that people respect your work then the vast majority will - and those who don't are liable to become pariahs.
Take, as an example, iLoo. Idiots happen, and the only thing we can do to stop them is to ban the ones who persist, and not become idiots ourselves.



That, and trust Hyper to encrypt our mixes more #Tongue

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Renegade
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Joined: 21 May 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany

PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

@OmegaBolt: I hate to break this to you, but not everytime I open my mouth, I'm talking to you. I know it's shocking to you, but, well, that's just the way it is.

@MadHQ: Your reactions show perfectly what is wrong with the community today. The statement that back then, no one made "really nice gfx's that took allot of time" in itself is obvious bullshit, but the implication that today's high quality assets take a lot of skill to make is dubious at best.
Back then, we only had half as developed tools, and half as many discoveries. Voxelers actually had to sit down and paint normals by hand to make them look good. And you sit there and claim people back then invested less time and less skill to produce graphics? That, with all your funky automation today, auto normals, auto hva, auto cameo, a voxel today displays more talent and more skill than a voxel back then?
You honestly want to claim that the higher quality of assets today is because people invest more time and skill in them, rather than the fact that the most skill it takes to do most tasks to day is clicking the correct button?

Artistic skills are unique to each person and certainly independent from the year. But pretending that graphics today are better because, somehow, everybody back then was lazy and sucked, and everybody today is great, is just another display of the boundless arrogance of today's community.

@ArvinCool: I know, but Google is a little more universal, easier to type the values in, and, if he already has a browser open and focused anyway, easier to reach Wink

@Aro: Of course nobody is saying that outright - because of exactly what I pointed out: The moment you actually say it, everybody realizes how silly that is. And yet, the implication is there again and again and again - you yourself said:
Aro wrote:
I highly doubt anybody will go through the trouble of trying to open a locked mix file just to look at a line of text in one of the .INI files

The assumption is that, just because you yourself know what you're doing, and thus cannot come up with a scenario in which you would want to look something up in someone else's ini, that it must be the same for everyone, and the only implied possibility is that he would only go through this trouble if he intended to steal shit.

A newb doesn't have the privilege of knowledge yet. If a newb is baffled by how some trooper on the field just walked, and then flew, then it really doesn't matter if you know how to make TS-style jumpjet infantry. The newb doesn't.
You ask, why doesn't he just post and ask?
I ask back: What for? He knows exactly what he wants to know.He knows exactly where to find the answer to his question. He knows he already has all the tools necessary to extract the answer. He knows everybody in the community always encouraged trying to learn for yourself rather than getting spoonfed.
So why should he take the time to look up the mod's website, find their forums, register, post a topic and idle around until he gets an answer, if he could just extract the ini and learn the answer himself?

The answer to your question is simple: Because posting takes longer, and finding out for yourself is more rewarding. Because it's everything the community has ever encouraged - active learning. Curiosity. Not showing up in a random forum with a trivial question instead of doing research.

What is Shadow Hunter doing wrong, your eyes? He has questions. He knows where to find the answers. He encounters a barrier. He looks, and finds a tutorial on how to overcome the barrier. He tries again to find his answers himself.
Only after he went through great lengths to learn and understand himself, he came onto a forum and asked for help, with a post that included enough information that those more knowledgeable could directly help him.

This is not something to be angry about, this is exactly what the community has preached for years.

And that is the irony of this whole topic. All of this new generation modders happily parrot the line "we're not here to spoonfeed you, look it up yourself" every time they encounter a newb unworthy of their time.
And then they turn around and implement technical measures supposed to make it impossible that the newb goes and investigates himself.
And then when the newbs try to do as told anyway, the community waffles another time, and asks "why did you try that instead of asking first?"

Basically, the message today's community is sending is "GTFO and don't ask us, but don't you ztyping dare touching anything without asking us first!".
How did you imagine that to work out in the long run?

The truth is, today's community simply doesn't care. As several people in this thread demonstrate very well, neither intelligence nor inquisitiveness are required, or even desired anymore.
These days, it's all about who has the greater mod, who has the better graphics, who has the higher post count, who flames better, who yells louder.

These days, the only thing that counts is how big your e-cock is.

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ApolloTD
Commander


Joined: 19 Nov 2003

PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Aro wrote:
I highly doubt anybody will go through the trouble of trying to open a locked mix file just to look at a line of text in one of the .INI files

Renegade wrote:

The assumption is that, just because you yourself know what you're doing, and thus cannot come up with a scenario in which you would want to look something up in someone else's ini, that it must be the same for everyone, and the only implied possibility is that he would only go through this trouble if he intended to steal shit.

A newb doesn't have the privilege of knowledge yet. If a newb is baffled by how some trooper on the field just walked, and then flew, then it really doesn't matter if you know how to make TS-style jumpjet infantry. The newb doesn't.
You ask, why doesn't he just post and ask?
I ask back: What for? He knows exactly what he wants to know.He knows exactly where to find the answer to his question. He knows he already has all the tools necessary to extract the answer. He knows everybody in the community always encouraged trying to learn for yourself rather than getting spoonfed.
So why should he take the time to look up the mod's website, find their forums, register, post a topic and idle around until he gets an answer, if he could just extract the ini and learn the answer himself?

The answer to your question is simple: Because posting takes longer, and finding out for yourself is more rewarding. Because it's everything the community has ever encouraged - active learning. Curiosity. Not showing up in a random forum with a trivial question instead of doing research.

What is Shadow Hunter doing wrong, your eyes? He has questions. He knows where to find the answers. He encounters a barrier. He looks, and finds a tutorial on how to overcome the barrier. He tries again to find his answers himself.
Only after he went through great lengths to learn and understand himself, he came onto a forum and asked for help, with a post that included enough information that those more knowledgeable could directly help him.

This is not something to be angry about, this is exactly what the community has preached for years.


How about he try do it himself using the very same inis that we all started with!

Because to me, spoon feeding is giving full answer right out of the box and him looking at other mods inis is exact same thing with him taking liberty to spoon feed himself and as result he learns NOTHING BUT to COPY AND PASTE which is fine with me but to me it is sad showing of no own effort to try yourself first like REALLY HARD and asking tips to right direction are fair deal but instead he runs to get full answer elsewhere as opposed to you know, WORK FOR IT.

If you'd invest the time to learn how game works, you don't need to look others for ready answers and its more meaningful that way when you can go, ohhhh I did it all by myself instead of scour all the information that few advanced modders acquired with lots of trial & error in their mods.

Hard work pays off but you rather offer shortcuts at expense of those that worked hard for it.

and when said modders wanna help others, they post TUTORIALS and there is more than enough of those to get any newb started on his way of learning most finer aspects himself.

Renegade wrote:

And that is the irony of this whole topic. All of this new generation modders happily parrot the line "we're not here to spoonfeed you, look it up yourself" every time they encounter a newb unworthy of their time.
And then they turn around and implement technical measures supposed to make it impossible that the newb goes and investigates himself.
And then when the newbs try to do as told anyway, the community waffles another time, and asks "why did you try that instead of asking first?"

Basically, the message today's community is sending is "GTFO and don't ask us, but don't you ztyping dare touching anything without asking us first!".
How did you imagine that to work out in the long run?

The truth is, today's community simply doesn't care. As several people in this thread demonstrate very well, neither intelligence nor inquisitiveness are required, or even desired anymore.
These days, it's all about who has the greater mod, who has the better graphics, who has the higher post count, who flames better, who yells louder.

These days, the only thing that counts is how big your e-cock is.


Yes, its always about e-cock when one wants to protect anything, its you that assume the ego-centric attitude is the sole reason and not any of their hard work since apparently it is all easy work now with todays automated tools (according to YOU) so why does newbs even need to look instead of do it on their own like rest of us. Rolling Eyes

fact is, some of the community do care and some of them don't care at all and take own rights like once again proved by original poster, i offered him to contact nighthawk, did he want to? not one damn bit and nighthawk came only aware when i informed that his property is being probed behind his back without asking him for any of it.

By all means, keep up your preaching but I don't think your church is gonna get everyone as members as evidently clear here.

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Xeno
Grenadier


Joined: 26 Jul 2005

PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

What is it with peoples attitudes now adays? Respect doesn't seem to exist anymore. No wonder the community is slowly turning into the crippled state it is.

@ Ren - Firstly could you back off from MadHQ, he's one of the most tallented Graphic Artists in the C&C modding community to date so he's got every right to put his point across. I agree that saying things at the start sucked is a bit OTT since people did the best with what skills and tools that were available at the time, however the methods used to do graphics vary in skill. Creating, rendering and texturing models was a hell of alot more skillful in many ways than taking your time and painting each pixel at a time. Now that its become easier to do 3d work that same situation will happen again... rendering will become the norm, thus easy, and a more complex skill will be at the top end.


Now going on to the main point. The bare fact that you say things are so automated puts the point that newbies DONT need to look in others mods to see how things work. Just push a button and its done. Whatever happened to learning for yourself? People seem to always want the quick solution rather than actually WORKING for something, i swear half the newbies nowadays would die through exhaustion cause they are so used to getting others to do what they want.

Modders put alot of time and effort into their mods and allowing any bugger to browse and grab puts a mockery on all they've done. The whole point of Tutorial Documents is to teach specifics to people who are new to the community, it used to be if you're curious about something then ASK the modder. If every bit of code is generally released then all the mods out there will loose their uniqueness and individualism, they'll just be clones with different graphics.

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Allied General
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Joined: 19 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

lol anyone?

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Blade
Cyborg Commando


Joined: 23 Dec 2003

PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ApolloTD wrote:

How about he try do it himself using the very same inis that we all started with!

Because to me, spoon feeding is giving full answer right out of the box and him looking at other mods inis is exact same thing with him taking liberty to spoon feed himself and as result he learns NOTHING BUT to COPY AND PASTE which is fine with me but to me it is sad showing of no own effort to try yourself first like REALLY HARD and asking tips to right direction are fair deal but instead he runs to get full answer elsewhere as opposed to you know, WORK FOR IT.

If you'd invest the time to learn how game works, you don't need to look others for ready answers and its more meaningful that way when you can go, ohhhh I did it all by myself instead of scour all the information that few advanced modders acquired with lots of trial & error in their mods.

Hard work pays off but you rather offer shortcuts at expense of those that worked hard for it.

and when said modders wanna help others, they post TUTORIALS and there is more than enough of those to get any newb started on his way of learning most finer aspects himself.


So hold on, you got your knowledge of modding initially by looking at the examples of stuff others had worked out before you (namely the WW employees)? Surely it would have been more rewarding for you if you had figured out things like charge turrets yourself through trial and error? Why reinvent the wheel? As long as people are looking things up for themselves and working out how to re implement them (which you almost always have to do for all but the most trivial effect) that is a good thing and the correct way a newbie should be entering the hobby. I doubt you can tell me you never copy and pasted a WW rules.ini section to modify for into your own new unit or weapon. What I object to is n00bs basically saying they want to do effect x and then asking the community to work out a way for them to do it without looking to see if a similar effect has already been done or trying anything themselves.

Xeno wrote:

@ Ren - Firstly could you back off from MadHQ, he's one of the most tallented Graphic Artists in the C&C modding community to date so he's got every right to put his point across. I agree that saying things at the start sucked is a bit OTT since people did the best with what skills and tools that were available at the time, however the methods used to do graphics vary in skill. Creating, rendering and texturing models was a hell of alot more skillful in many ways than taking your time and painting each pixel at a time. Now that its become easier to do 3d work that same situation will happen again... rendering will become the norm, thus easy, and a more complex skill will be at the top end.


Now going on to the main point. The bare fact that you say things are so automated puts the point that newbies DONT need to look in others mods to see how things work. Just push a button and its done. Whatever happened to learning for yourself? People seem to always want the quick solution rather than actually WORKING for something, i swear half the newbies nowadays would die through exhaustion cause they are so used to getting others to do what they want.

Modders put alot of time and effort into their mods and allowing any bugger to browse and grab puts a mockery on all they've done. The whole point of Tutorial Documents is to teach specifics to people who are new to the community, it used to be if you're curious about something then ASK the modder. If every bit of code is generally released then all the mods out there will loose their uniqueness and individualism, they'll just be clones with different graphics.


Graphics mostly sucking early in modding had less to do with lack of skill and more to do with a lack of tools. You couldn't make a voxel from a 3D model if you wanted to and it was a bit trickier for the average modder to "acquire" the likes of 3DSMax to model and render images anyway. Skilled individuals were still able to make excellent assets through much hard work without the tools such as Godwin, it was just harder and more time consuming to do so less people had the skill and will. MadHQ seems to follow a very open release policy for his work anyway, setting something like I would consider best practice for community participation for a release POV anyhow.

The fact that things like setting the correct angle or converting to .shp are somewhat automated does mean coding new units behavior is and some tricks are quite complicated to implement so a reference is often needed for less experiences modders. Its nonsense elitism to claim that things should be just as hard on newcomers to get the same results, I don't want to think any work I did working something out should have to be repeated except to make sure that it works as described. Are you telling me you don't use things like washing machines and do your clothes by hand (its possible I suppose depending on where you live)?

The idea that people being able to poke around in other mods rules will turn the modding community into a monoculture is simply unfounded. For a start, people being able to poke around has been the status quo for the majority of these games life time. Another is the fact that being able to look at how others achieved effect can give the more advanced modders ideas for other effects using similar principles leading to an increase in diversity. Then you also have the fact that good mods don't normally rely on every effect under the sun being implemented but rather some being implemented to get a certain look and feel to the experience.

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Regulus
Commander


Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Location: The Lone Star State

PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

lol indeed.

I absolutely love this community, I really do.

We are quick to tell newcomers to figure out how to do it themselves, then we destroy them when they go out and find the answers through studying others work. Its not like there is a huge 200 page library of tutorials for every different thing.

Rather than saying : OH BOY! I found this cool trick! I'm going to hide it from everyone forever BWA HA HA, we should be more outreaching to the community and share our discoveries.

We should make the community and community again.

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Allied General
General


Joined: 19 Mar 2004
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blade wrote:

Then you also have the fact that good mods don't normally rely on every effect under the sun being implemented but rather some being implemented to get a certain look and feel to the experience.


The thing is though, this is achieved by:

- many hours, days, months if not years for a few of testing offline/online and trial and hour e.g. fixing those IE or that misaligned flh/anim or creating that really cool voxel or building artwork which makes people say woah. However lots of people seem to be implying that modding is a 5 minute job.

Also an issue I observed from a lot of people replying to these threads is:

- everyone creativity or respect as a artist seems to have completely been ignored or sidelined unless its exe hacking by saying anyone can do 3D art or anyone can make a good map. I'm sorry people but in this society their is such a thing as talent, its drives this world economy around. MadHQ didn't have to spend his time learning 3D art to share with everyone, he could have just kept it to himself.

- lack of thank you, asking people before taking. I mean really is it that hard? is it really gonna upset you? I mean in a "community" don't you ask before you take and in the end you like contribute back to the community? You know those silly old movies where the neighbour asks the neighbour next door for some sugar. He doesn't just run into his house and grab all his sugar. Recently there has been a lot of taking but not a lot of giving back.

So my main issue is - why are people resorting to private mod assets?

Wheres the new tutorials, new voxels, shps, heck even yourself Rengade admit ModEnc needs modders input to update and keep it alive.

From my opinion its lack of ability or effort from users. I've seen it in a lot of modders. The people who stop modding because they are waiting for the next big patch, or people who say that can't start a mod because lack of public assets.

Then certain users give us lacklustre ideas e.g. gdi, nod, mutant, cabal mods, all-star mods, the 1 million + unit/structure mod which neither inspire or encourage any + feedback, yet people moan that we are flaming them, when in fact we just dislike the mod concept because its been done since 2003.

So most of the users who are pro for protected .mix files are not because we have big e-cocks or want to laugh at all the newbs. It because we want users to try and do things themselve to overcome the ability and effort shortcoming issues.

If you give a student a maths problem and a answer book, the student will just look at the answer book. Heck I did that in secondary school Rolling Eyes

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Blade
Cyborg Commando


Joined: 23 Dec 2003

PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Allied General wrote:


The thing is though, this is achieved by:

- many hours, days, months if not years for a few of testing offline/online and trial and hour e.g. fixing those IE or that misaligned flh/anim or creating that really cool voxel or building artwork which makes people say woah. However lots of people seem to be implying that modding is a 5 minute job.

Also an issue I observed from a lot of people replying to these threads is:

- everyone creativity or respect as a artist seems to have completely been ignored or sidelined unless its exe hacking by saying anyone can do 3D art or anyone can make a good map. I'm sorry people but in this society their is such a thing as talent, its drives this world economy around. MadHQ didn't have to spend his time learning 3D art to share with everyone, he could have just kept it to himself.

- lack of thank you, asking people before taking. I mean really is it that hard? is it really gonna upset you? I mean in a "community" don't you ask before you take and in the end you like contribute back to the community? You know those silly old movies where the neighbour asks the neighbour next door for some sugar. He doesn't just run into his house and grab all his sugar. Recently there has been a lot of taking but not a lot of giving back.

So my main issue is - why are people resorting to private mod assets?

Wheres the new tutorials, new voxels, shps, heck even yourself Rengade admit ModEnc needs modders input to update and keep it alive.

From my opinion its lack of ability or effort from users. I've seen it in a lot of modders. The people who stop modding because they are waiting for the next big patch, or people who say that can't start a mod because lack of public assets.

Then certain users give us lacklustre ideas e.g. gdi, nod, mutant, cabal mods, all-star mods, the 1 million + unit/structure mod which neither inspire or encourage any + feedback, yet people moan that we are flaming them, when in fact we just dislike the mod concept because its been done since 2003.

So most of the users who are pro for protected .mix files are not because we have big e-cocks or want to laugh at all the newbs. It because we want users to try and do things themselve to overcome the ability and effort shortcoming issues.

If you give a student a maths problem and a answer book, the student will just look at the answer book. Heck I did that in secondary school Rolling Eyes


No one is suggesting that modding is a 5 minute job if you are going to do a good job. Lets face is though, most modders are young and doing this for fun because they can. I don't expect them to churn out a commercial quality production. All access to good quality assets will do is make it look less like a monstrosity, there will still be gaping holes in quality of implementation anyhow. Besides, many graphical issues in vanilla YR have been fixed by various contributions into Marshalls UMP for example, all of which is essentially open and available to all and I'm sure most mods with a higher production value will have taken that work and incorporated it into their own. Similarly the TX is provided for any mod to make use of and that IMO provided plenty of woah when it was released.

I disagree that artists and mappers aren't being respected as much as the exe hackers and programmers. I think talent is an over rated attribute, hard work goes into being really good far more than having a talent does, talent just means you get better a bit faster. Almost anyone who puts in the work can be a reasonable 3D modeler or mapper but then they could also be an exe hacker too, there is no difference.

Lack of thanks or lack of proper etiquette in general is more a politeness issue and works both ways and I think a few people are a bit too reluctant to do some giving too recently IMO. The walled garden approach of protected mixes illustrates that mindset quite clearly. Instead of protecting mix files, why not just release the assets separately with the mod so people can use them, but obviously your mod would be the first to use them?

Lackluster ideas are nothing new, even the first mods where having 100+ units in TS seems boring and pointless to me. They were then, as they are now, like private experimentation mods that the makes had ego enough to think were so awesome they needed to share them. What annoyed me then like probably annoys you now is that n00bs lap them up like the general public laps up reality TV. Its not the ideas though, its the implementation. A GDI, Nod, Mutants and Cabal mod could be great if each side were well balanced and had some new SP content, but such a production value takes time and dedication to produce and all but the most avid modders will never generate something like that. I know my own efforts have stalled although I'd like to say I made something like that. None of this justifies being selfish and locking things up IMO though.

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Aro
Alcohol Fueled


Joined: 10 Sep 2006

PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

MT wrote:
- Not everyone is perfect in coding you know. Not to embarrass shadow, but that his weak spot, and I'll bet it gets tiring having to ask for every little thing.


- ...and is treated as a RIPPER because of one problem using the tutorial for the public to use.
If you have a problem with the tutorial, then take it somewhere else, not shadow's help thread.


- Yes, you're right, not everyone are great coders, but that's why we have help forums, it's easier to ask for help on something than it is to ask for help on how to open locked mix files. How do you ztyping expect some people to react!?

- Nobody is treating him as a ripper and nobody said he was a ripper!

Oh and MT, just go away, I'm so not in the mood for you.

Renegade wrote:
The assumption is that, just because you yourself know what you're doing, and thus cannot come up with a scenario in which you would want to look something up in someone else's ini, that it must be the same for everyone, and the only implied possibility is that he would only go through this trouble if he intended to steal shit.


Renegade -- You type way to much dude. #Tongue Anyway:

No, not at all. All that I'm saying is why go through the trouble of opening a locked mix ESPECIALLY when you haven't got a clue how to open a locked mix file even with tutorials when it's easier to ask for help on how to get a particular code working correctly?

Renegade wrote:
A newb doesn't have the privilege of knowledge yet. If a newb is baffled by how some trooper on the field just walked, and then flew, then it really doesn't matter if you know how to make TS-style jumpjet infantry. The newb doesn't.


Then ask for help. This is funny stuff coming from you, I mean, what was ModEnc made for?

Renegade wrote:
You ask, why doesn't he just post and ask?
I ask back: What for? He knows exactly what he wants to know.He knows exactly where to find the answer to his question. He knows he already has all the tools necessary to extract the answer. He knows everybody in the community always encouraged trying to learn for yourself rather than getting spoonfed.


Learn for yourself? I Guarantee that the people who have made the mod that someone is trying to gain access to through the locked MIX files learned the code themselves, so why can't the person trying to access the files learn themselves without having to go through the trouble of getting into a locked MIX file? A lot of you are missing the point entirely as to why MIX files are locked in the first place.

Renegade wrote:
The answer to your question is simple: Because posting takes longer, and finding out for yourself is more rewarding. Because it's everything the community has ever encouraged - active learning. Curiosity. Not showing up in a random forum with a trivial question instead of doing research.


It takes just as long if not longer to ask for help on how to open a locked MIX file if you can't do it properly, especially being as a lot of people don't support it. Not everybody is as experienced in that criteria as some of us you know.

Renegade wrote:
What is Shadow Hunter doing wrong, your eyes?


In my eyes? I never once accused or attacked ShadowHunter in anyway, I never said he was doing anything wrong other than the fact rather than doing the whole try to get into a locked MIX file thing, he could of simply posted a thread about coding help. With a thread like this, accusations are obviously going to come up and arguments are going to spark, you of all people should know that.

Renegade wrote:
He has questions. He knows where to find the answers. He encounters a barrier. He looks, and finds a tutorial on how to overcome the barrier. He tries again to find his answers himself. Only after he went through great lengths to learn and understand himself, he came onto a forum and asked for help, with a post that included enough information that those more knowledgeable could directly help him.


...Yet this takes time, It COULD of been much easier to ask for help on coding rather than this, especially after the last thread which by the way I wasn't here for, I was out making the most out of my weekend (Very Happy). The point is that it doesn't hurt to ask for coding help and is easier than opening a locked mix file when you don't have a clue what you're doing.

Apollo has pretty much said everything else for me, so yeah.

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Nighthawk
Vehicle Drone


Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Location: Northern Ireland

PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

To clarify something to whomever brought it up, I'm not trying to hoard knowledge away from the community by locking the mix files Shadow Hunter is trying to access. As I already mentioned earlier on, I'm happy to answer any questions he might have about how something was done, hell I'd even write tutorials related to stuff in my mod if demand was high enough. But as for supporting people going through my mod's files, that will not happen.

To go back to what started this whole topic off: Shadow, if there's something in my mod you want to know about, then for the sake of all things mildly holy post a topic in my forum, email me, PM me, get me on MSN, whatever. But don't go hacking into my mod's files.

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MT
General


Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Location: Wandering Time

PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
- Nobody is treating him as a ripper and nobody said he was a ripper!

Ack, then why all the flame?

Quote:
Oh and MT, just go away, I'm so not in the mood for you.

Your mood will not dictate my actions, fellow user.

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