Also Known As: banshee_revora (Steam) Joined: 15 Aug 2002 Location: Brazil
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:08 am Post subject:
Mod Community News!
Subject description: Covering July and August, till 11th...
Hello again! I've made an experience recently. I've posted a big news about one of our most promising YR mods here, with new screenshots, concept arts, etc... and sent the news to other C&C webmasters to post on their websites and left the news here in the top of the site for about 5 days. The result of the experience was horrible. Newsflash: Yuri's Revenge is too old and only one webmaster posted a news about the mod. Thanks for your interest on old games at CnC World, chickendippers. There are very few other C&C websites that occasionaly get news about YR mods, and most of them are modding communities like us. If I had posted a news about Tiberium Essence, which is the C&C3 mod that we host here, somebody else would have posted a news, of course.
Now, I don't wanna declare war at any site, nor incitate community members to attack anyone. Every webmaster has the right to decide which game and facts their site will cover and spotlight. It is their right. It's quite notorious that I am not fan of Renegade, so I hardly give any attention to Renegade news here, even if APB, Reborn and Apocalypse Rising looks awesome. Mods outside the C&C scope that emulate C&C in other languages are not even mentioned here. I believe other webmasters probably have similar thoughts for these old games. We have a big group of people who still mod YR, Tiberian Sun and older games. And, while these games stopped in time, they are still good to mod, they a re flexible and easy. In short:
"It would be a sad error in judgment to mistake us for a corpse."
Graphic wise, the newer games may provide zoom, camera rotation, but the SAGE engine graphics are not very good. The 3D models used in these games have a low amount of polygons. If you zoom out the infantry at the distance of Red Alert 2, you'll be surprised to see more details on RA2 infantry than in a Generals infantry... even in the C&C3 one (although there were some serious improvements on it). The fact is that models created for YR buildings have no polygon limit, since they all get converted to 2D images (SHP), although these images are not big either. Voxels are the weak point of the old games, being more complex to render ingame, specially if you deal with oversized, extremely detailed voxels. They have the ability to slow the game down into critical levels.
Comparison between RA2 and RA3 graphics. RA3 has more colours, but the RA2 infantry is really cool.
In terms of flexibility, I've seen more customization on most YR and TS mods than C&C3 or RA3. It's not due to lack of flexibility from the SAGE engine, but it is rather to the difficulty level of modding such things. Very few C&C3 mods have custom buildings with full animation (such as doors, cranes, etc). In Tiberian Sun and Red Alert 2 mods, these animations are done with ease, as well as unit explosions and other effects. It's easier to see terrain, user interface and civilian buildings being customized in old games than SAGE ones, even if the SAGE engine allows it in all games. Most of C&C3 and RA3 mods (although there are several exceptions) are mainly ballance mods or add a couple of new units, while there are a plenty of fully customized total conversions for old games.
The gameplay really depends on the mod and on your machine, so I will not place any comments on that.
So, of course that new mods for new games deserves attention, but we must not underestimate mods for the older games. I still think that most mods for YR are better than the ones for RA3, at least the ones I've heard of. So, if your problem with YR and older games is the age, think twice. If you do not cover the game in your site because you do not like it, then it's acceptable. Old games are not necessarily bad and not necessarily worse than the current games.
Ohh... and I almost forgot that this news was about mods from other communities, so let's get straight to the business:
[Mod Releases]
-> Cold War Crisis 1.5 has been released to the public about a week ago. This is a total conversion for Zero Hour that brings realism to the game with the weaponry set in the 80's. It updates the game with every change down to the internal patch 480. Yea, down, because it seems that next internal patch should be 479. And it includes some intro movies as well. This is a very popular high quality mod. Download is recommended for Zero Hour fans.
-> Middle East Crisis 1.9 has been released sometime ago by Bhones. Also a Zero Hour TC, this mod brings the middle east conflict to your game with Israel and the Syrians. Grab it HERE. The new version comes with the Wuad Bike for Israel, several bug fixes, all original EA made maps compatible and much more. For more information, check this topic at IsoTX forums.
-> Blitzkrieg 2: The Finest Hour 3.01 was released a very long time ago, but I totally missed the news. At least, I can say that they've released a Mac version as well recently. Anyway, this is a classic TC that brings the world war II to your Zero Hour.
-> Tiberian Sun Rising, a TC that will bring TS to TW, has screenshots of the Mammoth Mark II and a GDI Helipad. Kane won't be happy with the picture below and more that can be found at CnC Source:
-> You can check the latest progress of RA2: Apocalypse Rising and Red Alert: A Path Beyond checking the dev blogs. They've released countless blog posts with screenshots, videos of features and even random fun stuff.
-> Tiberian Dawn Redux, a TC that will bring Tiberian Dawn to Zero Hour, has a lot of screenshots and videos with new features from the mod. Check their site and this topic to view everything about this mod. The movies below are just teasers:
And that's all for today. We'll bring more news from the PPM community and hosted mods in the next news posts. Last edited by Banshee on Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:42 am; edited 2 times in total QUICK_EDIT
That's a rather poor set of comparison images, Banshee. You've taken an image from Ra3's alpha stage, and compared it to a image from an Ra2 mod. A fairer comparison would be between these two images:
personalty i think sage engine is very good engine and it still the best 3d RTS engine IMO i have no problem with it. the model or texture will looking good or not that up to modeler/texturer skill,even old Ps1 game like Final Fantasy IX the game seem to be have lower polygon than C&c3 but it still look good because texture. that's the reason why i stress on texture work than modeling.
only 1 problem with C&c3 , Ra3 version in term of modding i found, is about the game have too much encryption file , code , everything inside. and seem not possible to extract the file inside to study their work [unlike General everyone can extract them with out any file broken] that make people need to wait their support only such as Sample Art , Mod SDK but sadly everytime they patch the game people need to wait for new version of SDK to work that make me disappoint. IMO they may support everyone to mod but not support people learn how to mod.
i want to modding on both engine but it''s not flexible enough to work with.
and hmm.... Tiberian Sun Rising atmosphere seem too red IMO. however it still the most promise c&c3 mod for me. QUICK_EDIT
If 3D has truly, conquered 2D, like people keep saying, then why is Starcraft still praised and played continuously for being a 1998 released game (YR being a game released in 2001, 8 years is not "old") and that RA2's community still has a following of fans and is still played? Also when I look around on various gaming sites, I see people keep longing for 2D games rather than 3D games. Sounds like some people don't really know what they're talking about judging whether something is too old or not.
In fact I might go as far to say 2D games are more fun, artistic and more thought out than 3D which rely too much on graphics and make way for poor balance. 3D mods also tend to flop a lot more often and take more time than a 2D TC to release. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Also Known As: banshee_revora (Steam) Joined: 15 Aug 2002 Location: Brazil
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:25 pm Post subject:
TX1138 wrote:
That's a rather poor set of comparison images, Banshee. You've taken an image from Ra3's alpha stage, and compared it to a image from an Ra2 mod. A fairer comparison would be between these two images:
Joined: 18 Jun 2005 Location: Dordrecht, the Netherlands
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:27 pm Post subject:
Will you all shut up about 3D mods not worth it? Now you get it why there are so few 3D mods here? It's the overall attitude that is almost anti-3D. And no, I ain't saying that the 2D games/mods here are bad, and I mod TS/RA2 too.
But stop saying that 3D is bad. With some decent TS/RA2 modding knowledge you can easy go to Generals modding... QUICK_EDIT
Also Known As: banshee_revora (Steam) Joined: 15 Aug 2002 Location: Brazil
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:20 pm Post subject:
I did not say that 3D mods were not worth it. I did say that 2D mods must not be underestimated because of its age. Last edited by Banshee on Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:10 am; edited 1 time in total QUICK_EDIT
Also Known As: evanb90 Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Location: o kawaii koto
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:19 pm Post subject:
Banshee wrote:
TX1138 wrote:
That's a rather poor set of comparison images, Banshee. You've taken an image from Ra3's alpha stage, and compared it to a image from an Ra2 mod. A fairer comparison would be between these two images:
I needed a zoomed out RA3 picture. But the graphical quality from the alpha is not that different from the final version, isn't it?
Actually, there is a huge difference. Alpha shots of RA3 have different shaders, some units like the Apoc have different, much inferior unit designs. (notice the lack of saturation, water detail and over-all dullness) _________________ YR modder/artist, DOOM mapper, aka evanb90
Project Lead Developer, New-Star Strike (2014-)
Former Project Lead DeveloperStar Strike (2005-2012), Z-Mod (2006-2007), RA1.5 (2008-2013), The Cold War (2006-2007) QUICK_EDIT
Joined: 19 May 2008 Location: Scotland, starting a Revolution Cameo: metricon. Posts:???
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:15 pm Post subject:
Quote:
CnC-Communications Center
How Ironic, i decided against posting an Update and then several websites post info on the updates posted by the only other mod on the fourm _________________ Creator of TS:BoB and some other things that might be good when finnished. QUICK_EDIT
This does look like a huge, anti 3D rant. As for the screenshot, I love how there are no infantry at all in that screenshot. Hell, its even the old Apocalypse Tank that was removed.
As for Gens and up mods being mostly 'balance mods', are you high? MEC2, CWC, that Vietnam one I can't remember, Blitzkrieg, Shockwave. Those mods are far from 'balance mods'. The 2D scene is no better then the 3D scene, you're acting like the mods here are world class with great original stories, and half of the TS mods are TS remakes or post TS mods that retcon C&C3. This is no gauntlet of original content. And just how many of those 'original' Total Conversions are actually out, that are hosted here?
I'm with Dutchy (you did kinda say that ra2 graphics were better than 3d graphics) , I use to only mod YR, but since I started modding Generals, I found it really rewarding, and there are alot of possibilities that you can make happen. Generals itself is kinda an 'old game', but I find it realativly easy to mod, and sure the models aren't the highest quality on the planet, but thats what you trade for zooming in, 360 rotation, and proper scales (just to name a few graphical things). Also, terrain is alot better to create in Generals (things like the ability to weld together textures makes things alot easier).
Anyways, I say yay for YR mods, and everyone should atleast look into Generals modding (It's fun!) _________________ Please, read the signature rules of the forum. QUICK_EDIT
2d or 3d isn't main point that people choose to modding Banshee... it's about logic they want to use and difficult level to access the game engine.
i choose to do ROS in Ra2 engine because it easy [and because my accustomed] , it have enough logic i need. [ok sometime i want addition logic but if i seem it not possible i have no problem to abandon the idea]
i doesn't modding Ra3 or C&c3 because i still have no idea to do with it not just because it's 3d game.
i like both 2d and 3d they have different art style and different way to working with,
for me 2D never out date if it made by careful artist you can see many Japanese game today still use 2d graphic [most of them even hand draw!] and they do very good job about this.
3D is more easy to out date compare with 2D but it do very impressive job in their age. however the developer can delay their life span give their graphic as cartoon [ now you know the reason why blizzard choose to bring cartoon graphic to their game]
nothing will better everything up to game artist.
do you know the 3d engine i want to modding the most? it's BFME1 and 2.
i dont have any problem with Ra3 , C&c3 , C&c4 engine i have problem only those Obelisk on the tank and Boxling tank other than that is fine... Last edited by Holy_Master on Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:26 pm; edited 1 time in total QUICK_EDIT
I'm not bashing 3D games in fact Dawn of War is an excellent 3D game I enjoy playing, it's just I feel most 3D games are shallow in comparison, and the nostalgic feel of 2D games can also capture full scale battles a lot better (3D games with unit spam can be slow so more effort in 3D games is to have individual unit battles).
Quote:
Will you all shut up about 3D mods not worth it? Now you get it why there are so few 3D mods here? It's the overall attitude that is almost anti-3D.
Not really, it's a fact that 3D mods just take longer to make and not many people know modeling as a skill. A mod in the end is just a means to enhance a career portfolio and/or a hobby.
On Moddb I think the general consensus is though 3D>2D RTS, 2D RTS I feel doesn't get the attention/talent of what 3D gets (some posts I've seen urge people to switch to a 3D engine when they ask for help with a 2D mod). Of course, I'm with Ixonoclast when he says whatever engine allows for greater exploration in modding, as even though YR has that nostalgic engine it can only be bent so far to a means before the game starts shelling up IE's.
2D and 3D have benefits but I feel most of the time 2D got suddenly neglected by the industry, especially with the flop that was Sunage. _________________ QUICK_EDIT
Also Known As: banshee_revora (Steam) Joined: 15 Aug 2002 Location: Brazil
Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:28 am Post subject:
Ok, people are seeing this post as 3D bashing, but it is not. I just meant that mods created for old games must not be underestimated, because these engines are not in 3D. Of course I had to compare them to the latest 3D engines to prove my point, but I do not bash them. I said that models have low polycount, but the engine is flexible... it allows many things... but it is hard to deal with, which is why RA2 and older games mods usually have more features than TCs for RA3 and C&C3.
So, here's a couple of replies:
EVA-251 wrote:
Actually, there is a huge difference. Alpha shots of RA3 have different shaders, some units like the Apoc have different, much inferior unit designs. (notice the lack of saturation, water detail and over-all dullness)
I did not mean to compare the quality of both APOCs, but the potential that the engine may provide in terms of graphic details. You can notice that RA3 has more colours, models are more smooth mainly because RA3 deals with 32 bits colours, which makes a hell of a difference. But in terms of detail that can be placed into building and unit graphics, both engines have similar standards. And, the graphics from YR actually looks good.
DaFool wrote:
I'm with Dutchy (you did kinda say that ra2 graphics were better than 3d graphics)
I did not say that. I'll quote what I said:
Banshee wrote:
If you zoom out the infantry at the distance of Red Alert 2, you'll be surprised to see more details on RA2 infantry than in a Generals infantry... even in the C&C3 one (although there were some serious improvements on it).
Of course that, if you zoom in, the Generals and newer games graphics will look better.
Ixonoclast wrote:
I'm tired of the old TS/YR engine. Makes me feel claustrophobic, so much stuff impossible.
I agree that some of the limits from these engines are realy awful to deal with. Let's hope Ares get released and become popular.
Volgin wrote:
But banshee, how many of them had a release? ROTD, DTA, SS?
You forgot NCM Revolution.
Holy Master wrote:
2d or 3d isn't main point that people choose to modding Banshee... it's about logic they want to use and difficult level to access the game engine.
I agree with what you say and my original post does not contradict your words either. It complains about those who underestimate mods created for the older games. QUICK_EDIT
Also Known As: evanb90 Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Location: o kawaii koto
Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:32 am Post subject:
Banshee wrote:
EVA-251 wrote:
Actually, there is a huge difference. Alpha shots of RA3 have different shaders, some units like the Apoc have different, much inferior unit designs. (notice the lack of saturation, water detail and over-all dullness)
I did not mean to compare the quality of both APOCs, but the potential that the engine may provide in terms of graphic details. You can notice that RA3 has more colours, models are more smooth mainly because RA3 deals with 32 bits colours, which makes a hell of a difference. But in terms of detail that can be placed into building and unit graphics, both engines have similar standards. And, the graphics from YR actually looks good.
That isn't a response to my statement at all. I was pointing out how you chose an absolutely AWFUL RA3 shot to showcase it. The Apocalypse Tank, lack of RA3 shaders, saturation, water detail, etc. IE, an extreme dull shot. _________________ YR modder/artist, DOOM mapper, aka evanb90
Project Lead Developer, New-Star Strike (2014-)
Former Project Lead DeveloperStar Strike (2005-2012), Z-Mod (2006-2007), RA1.5 (2008-2013), The Cold War (2006-2007) QUICK_EDIT
Also Known As: banshee_revora (Steam) Joined: 15 Aug 2002 Location: Brazil
Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:14 am Post subject:
The pictures are horrible, I know. Both pictures are horrible. But my focus is not on shaders, saturation, water detail, because 3ds max deals with these things and all you need is a picture to transform it into SHP. My point was to prove the low polycount issue that makes RA3 buildings look as detailed as RA2, even if the lack of colours in RA2 increases overall the contrast. QUICK_EDIT
On a more serious note; the modding scene for Tib Sun and RA2 era games is STILL much more active than C&C3 or RA3 for the simple reason that it's more accessible and there are years and years worth of knowledge and experience all around the internet for people to use.
With Sage games, it requires a wide range of different skills, and those people who are few and far between, get snapped up by mod teams and monopolised.
But unfortunately TibSun and RA2 news is not accustomed to gracing the official website, so it does fall of people's radars.
@Banshee: Although it saddens me to say, CNC Community has seen better days, so perhaps it would be best to send an email round the webmasters too? _________________
Webmaster of - [CnCWorld]
Webmaster of - [CNC Community] QUICK_EDIT
Question 38
Question: How come not until 2002 a C&C game got 3D graphics?
Asked By: CuppaLastHumanSoldier
Answered By: Ishmael-PG
Answer:
Because 3D doesn't make RTS games any better. Most of the stuff you can do in 3D is easier to do in 2D. There's other posts on this as well. _________________ Can you hide from me ? QUICK_EDIT
And you are right about sending emails. I'll do it next time, but I'll still post a news in the webbies. There are more people who checks that area. I've noticed that some sites are simply 'locked' by the excessive C&C4 news released recently. QUICK_EDIT
There were some Modding Wikis on Tiberium Wars.
The one on cncmods.net is accessible but there is no information because of no one willing to write something there. Its a long outdated Wiki version without extensions. So you have to completely rely on basic Wiki coding and that's a huge pain in the ass.
The other one I know of is the one from thundermods.net. At the moment it is in a password protected area of the page so only the guys there can access it (I am one of them and it was done because it seemed that there was little interest in it and we used it for a project for a short period of time. If there is interest in a wiki with a newer version and some extensions (also suggestions for extensions would be heared) I would tell the tech admin to remove the password)
Also you talk about features and that most 3D mods have only a small collection of it and in the next line you just mention animations. But features are much more like special powers or unit interactions that are completely missing in the old 2D WW games. I don't say they don't look good or something, I also play classic games like Monkeys Island I+II etc so I don't mind graphics. Its just that many of the features that are possible in TW/RA3 are not in TS/RA2, but its not about 3D/2D its about engine implementation of these features as there are also many features in TS/RA2 that are not possible in TW/RA3. I can see your point but the argumentation lacks a bit and that is imo the reason of much of these posts here that clearly not understood what you are trying to say. QUICK_EDIT
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