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Non-Landing Jumpjet Infantry?!
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Chordeiles
Medic


Joined: 05 Aug 2009

PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:59 am    Post subject:  Non-Landing Jumpjet Infantry?!
Subject description: This could either be my greatest blunder or a great discovery...
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Hello, everyone. You can call me Chordeiles (or "That New Guy", whatever you prefer). I'm a casual gamer/modder, so if this is old news, please excuse me.

Now, I understand that there has been some research going into the Perfect Jumpjet Clone (which I had no access to up until last month when I registered here) regarding a Jumpjet Infantry that does not land, like the ones found in RA2.

The Perfect Jumpjet Clone was not my primary interest, but during my usual testing routine for the Orca Transport, I managed to reproduce the continually airborne Jumpjet Infantry.

I do not have images to supply at the moment, so I will show you the relevant codes that I think may have caused this phenomenon.

---

[JumpjetControls]
TurnRate=4
Speed=12 ;was 14
Climb=8 ;was 5
CruiseHeight=450 ;was 500
Acceleration=4 ;was 2
WobblesPerSecond=.15 ; was .25
WobbleDeviation=40 ; was 40

---

...Now, the only thing I changed in this section are bolded here. I made a lot of changes and I don't really have time to test out each of the parameters myself.

---

; Jumpjet Infantry
[JUMPJET]
Name=Jumpjet Infantry
Category=Soldier
MovementZone=Fly
VoiceSelect=15-I000,15-I004,15-I012,15-I048
VoiceMove=15-I018,15-I024,15-I044
VoiceAttack=15-I044,15-I050,15-I044,15-I046
VoiceDie=DEDMAN1,DEDMAN2,DEDMAN2,DEDMAN4,DEDMAN5,DEDMAN6
VoiceFeedback=15-I058,15-I064
Locomotor={92612C46-F71F-11d1-AC9F-006008055BB5}
Speed=10
ThreatPosed=15
Owner=GDI
Prerequisite=GAPILE,GARADR
Primary=JumpCannon
TechLevel=6
Strength=120
Armor=light
Sight=6
Cost=600
Points=5
PhysicalSize=1
AllowedToStartInMultiplayer=no
Crushable=no
Fearless=yes
JumpJet=yes
EliteAbilities=RADAR_INVISIBLE,FIREPOWER

---

And the changes I made in here are bolded as well. Understandably, the code order here is a mess. I blame that on SE2K since I used it to extract the rules.ini file before I could get my hands on XCC Tools. (Don't use SE2K anymore.)

My guess is this may have to do with the Climb Rate vs Unit Speed, since those were the two newest changes I made. Could someone give that a try and see if it works?


Also, a second thing I have to share with everyone regarding the broken Orca Transport.

Make a direct clone of the Orca Transport as a new unit (everything remains the same). Make it buildable (Techlevel, Prerequisite, etc.), give it a Dock=GAPAD and give it a dummy weapon.

Now, everyone knows that already. A dummy weapon makes it "paradrop" its infantry cargo. But... What if the dummy weapon has a range that's too small for it to fire?

---

; LZ Marker
; (Cloned From Civilian Pistol)
[LZM1]
Burst=1
ROF=20
Projectile=Invisible
Speed=100
Warhead=SA
Range=0.50
Bright=true

---

This made it land if ordered to force-fire at the target landing area (thus, the LZ Marker weapon name) after it has become airborne. I gave the Orca Transport clone AMMO=-1, but it doesn't really matter since it never fired its weapon even once.

The discovery stemmed from my (failed) attempt of making the Orca Transport do a strafe run while releasing infantries. I later found a way to make a strafing MG weapon later on but decided this Orca Transport fix was better.

Thoughts and comments will be great. I've been browsing this site for quite a long time but never had a chance to really contribute to the collective research here. This may not be much (since I don't do a lot of modding myself) so I hope people here on PPM could take this discovery further.

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Tony
Commander


Joined: 02 Apr 2005
Location: United States

PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, the jumpjet infantry stays airborne, your code worked for that.

I Didn't test your transport though.

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Ixonoclast
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Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Location: Somewhere up high.

PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see what's the use of flying Jumpjet dudes.

Landing Jumpjet dudes are perfect.

Fly AROUND SAM site, land, walk to SAM site, destroy SAM site, carry on flying.

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Tony
Commander


Joined: 02 Apr 2005
Location: United States

PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But to be open minded, this has good uses..especially for something like LKO's tib flyer #Tongue

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

not really, as you have to edit the global jumpjet settings, which affect all jumpjet units, not only the flyer.

none the less an interesting discovery and for some mods surely useful.

btw, some other balloonhover workarounds can be found on tibweb.
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Machine
Commander


Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Location: National Reference Laboratory for IPNV

PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyways this is actually useful for several things, like having functional shp helicopters coded as infantry, that use the alternate warfactory trick, so they stay separate from infantry.
It would be even more useful when an exe hack makes possible giving each unit their own jumpjet controls.

Though I have to say that I love being able to land my jumpjets, but if something like deploying infantry into other infantry is ever available I would use this, as having jumpjets auto land after a while is quite troublesome (but to say the truth I always wanted them to work like that).

In short, great find Wink.

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blubb
General


Joined: 31 Jul 2005

PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the only flaw i see with the JJ is that his firing logic is not working very well nor his attack command, he won't fly to a target nor follow a target.
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Death Cultist
Scorpion Sniper


Joined: 28 Apr 2009
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

it's still very interesting as LKO said, it acompanies the ballon hover logic that sum ppl have been lookin 4 very nicely, good find.
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Chordeiles
Medic


Joined: 05 Aug 2009

PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
the only flaw i see with the JJ is that his firing logic is not working very well nor his attack command, he won't fly to a target nor follow a target.


Yes, I found that during my testing as well. Really annoying how you have to babysit the thing to its target and order it to attack. (The AI doesn't seem to have the same problem, though. The cheaters!Sad)

Anyways, I've done some additional testing regarding the Global Jumpjet Setting and have managed to deduce the relevant codes down to these three interacting lines:

---
Speed=12 ;was 14
Climb=8 ;was 5
Acceleration=4 ;was 2
---

During testing, I changed the Jumpjet Speed = 10 and Climb = 5 with Acceleration = 2 (default). The result was the Jumpjet Infantry displayed a delayed landing phase. I tested this using Speed = 12 and Climb = 6 with the same results. Of course, at this phase it still lands (after about 2 seconds of hovering). Pathfinding and attack commands still works as usual, with slight delay.

Then, when I changed Acceleration from 2 to 4, the Jumpjet stayed in the air.

I still haven't found the factor related to Acceleration, but a brief summary of the interacting effects between Speed and Climb for a semi-hovering effect is:

(Climb) = 1/2 (Speed)

When Climb is higher than this, the delay becomes longer by a small margin and the Jumpjet Infantry can still land. I don't know what would happen when you give Acceleration = 3 with the above Speed and Climb values, though. I'll probably test this sometime when I have time. (And make it so that pathfinding and attack commands aren't broken in the process.)

I've read the Ballonhover Workaround a while ago and thinks this Non-Landing Jumpjet Effect is possibly along the same logic. Thanks, LKO. Smile

I myself prefer the landable Jumpjet Infantry as well. Hate to lose them during an Ion Storm (which I love to enable in Multiplayer Maps).

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Navy SEAL
Energy Commando


Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Location: Estland

PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does this jupjet thing works on aircraft vehicles too if you change the Locomotor and put JumpJet=yes
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Chordeiles
Medic


Joined: 05 Aug 2009

PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Navy SEAL wrote:
Does this jupjet thing works on aircraft vehicles too if you change the Locomotor and put JumpJet=yes


I think so, but haven't tried it yet. The inherent problems will remain, I also assume. (Invincible while in air, etc.)

EDIT: Fixed a broken code.

Last edited by Chordeiles on Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:42 am; edited 1 time in total

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CCHyper
Defense Minister


Joined: 07 Apr 2005

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder why its invincible in the air, i should check the code for this, some height check...

Its only Jumpjet UnitTypes that does this?
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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All flying vehicles are invincible. Jumpjet logic is only one of them.

I think all you have to do is moving the JumpJet=yes key from InfantryTypes to VehicleTypes, as this is the one which seems to make the flying infantry vulnerable again.

But maybe it also has something to do with the formerly ground based units, which are now moving in air and this way become an undefined target category: neither ground nor air. And since the railgun ambientdamage works versus all categories (ground and air), is this the only one which can damage them in this state.
Maybe WW used something like
if (unit==ground) then {do damage with weapons that have AG=yes)
if (unit==air) then {do damage with weapons that have AA=yes}
But the flying vehicle doesn't change from Ground to Air when taking off, so it isn't vulnerably to any type of weaponry.
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CCHyper
Defense Minister


Joined: 07 Apr 2005

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
All flying vehicles are invincible. Jumpjet logic is only one of them.

I think all you have to do is moving the JumpJet=yes key from InfantryTypes to VehicleTypes, as this is the one which seems to make the flying infantry vulnerable again.

But maybe it also has something to do with the formerly ground based units, which are now moving in air and this way become an undefined target category: neither ground nor air. And since the railgun ambientdamage works versus all categories (ground and air), is this the only one which can damage them in this state.
Maybe WW used something like
if (unit==ground) then {do damage with weapons that have AG=yes)
if (unit==air) then {do damage with weapons that have AA=yes}
But the flying vehicle doesn't change from Ground to Air when taking off, so it isn't vulnerably to any type of weaponry.


Very strange indeed, ill have a look at this tonight and see what i can come up with.

So, to experience this myself, all i have to do is give a UnitType the JumpJetLocomotor?

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Tony
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Joined: 02 Apr 2005
Location: United States

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you would need the jumpjet loco and JumpJet=yes afaik.

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The jumpjet Locomotor is enough to test it.
Though if you edit the JumpJet=yes key to make vehicles vulnerable in air, you of course have to test this too.

The air locomotor makes problems when building the vehicle with the warfactory, as it got stuck there, so you shouldn't use it for your tests.

JumpJet=yes works on InfantryTypes only and has three functions:
-allow the infantry to walk on ground too and use the Jumpjet locomotor only for far distances (without it, it always flies when moving)
-use the special anims defined in the infantry sequence for flying (without it, it uses the walkanim while flying)
-make the infantry vulnerable while flying (without it, it's only vulnerable on ground and invincible while flying, just like flying vehicles)
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Anderwin
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Joined: 16 May 2005

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

move this to Research Center?
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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i don't think it's necessary, as it's all quite common knowledge.
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CCHyper
Defense Minister


Joined: 07 Apr 2005

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
Though if you edit the JumpJet=yes key to make vehicles vulnerable in air, you of course have to test this too.


Now, if what i have just seen in this game is true, this bug is fixed easily xD

Gonna Test...


Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
-use the special anims defined in the infantry sequence for flying (without it, it uses the walkanim while flying)


Would it be good to say, add another sequence key for Flying?

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Machine
Commander


Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Location: National Reference Laboratory for IPNV

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Read the word document, with the bugs.
Sometimes jumpjet infantry, usually after firing, while flying, stop using their flying animations, and just use their stand (ground) animation. They also always use their firefly sequence, even when firing on ground.

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Roadwarrior
Energy Commando


Joined: 15 Jan 2007
Location: Oklahoma

PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chordeiles wrote:


I think so, but haven't tried it yet. The inherent problems will remain, I also assume. (Invincible while in air, etc.)


I'd like to have yer strafing MG code( Just post it here)
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Chordeiles
Medic


Joined: 05 Aug 2009

PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roadwarrior wrote:
I'd like to have yer strafing MG code( Just post it here)


Will do. Now, if only I remembered which ini file it was in...

Oh, here it is.

--Weapon Code--
; Guardian MG
[GMG]
Damage=40
ROF=5
Projectile=Cannon3 ;the Most Important Line!
Warhead=SA
Report=CYGUN1
Range=4.00

--Projectile Code---
; Strafe Shots ;cloned from Orca Bomblet
[Cannon3]
Image=None
ROT=0

Actually, you could just make your own strafing MG from a Harpy MG weapon clone and an Orca Bomber Bomb projectile clone. Give the MG Weapon clone the Bomb Projectile clone, change the Image= line to None and you're all set.

And if anyone's curious, the "Guardian" that has this weapon belonged to was the GDI Guardian aircraft voxel I downloaded from this site's Voxel section. I can't quite remember who made the voxel, but I do remember it was highlighted. (Sorry, slow internet preventing me from looking up the name.)

CCHyper wrote:
Now, if what i have just seen in this game is true, this bug is fixed easily xD

Gonna Test...


Yes, please! I'd love it if someone could find a way make airborne Jumpjet Vehicles vulnerable to AA fire. I really don't want to give my AA systems the railgun workaround.

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The projectile Invisible2 is used by the Harpy only.
You can simply remove the key Inviso=yes and set ROT=0 to give it an MG overrun attack.

with Inviso=yes the aircraft shuffles between shots, regardless of the set ROT

with Inviso=no and ROT=0 or ROT=1 the aircraft performs the overrun attacks.

doing an overrun attack
with ROT=0, some shots miss the target
with ROT=1, all shots hit the target
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Roadwarrior
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Joined: 15 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chordeiles wrote:
*Post/


Thank you.
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Chordeiles
Medic


Joined: 05 Aug 2009

PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
The projectile Invisible2 is used by the Harpy only.
You can simply remove the key Inviso=yes and set ROT=0 to give it an MG overrun attack.


Ah! I didn't know the Inviso=yes line was that important!

Thanks for the info, LKO! Smile

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